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Around SBN: Ray Allen Fighting Age, Injury And His New Role

J.J. has a slightly torn ligament in his right elbow. In these tough times, let's think back to J.J.'s good games this season. Like Opening Day. And this game. And that's about it.

over 2 years ago Best_infield_ever_tiny James Kannengieser 54 comments 0 recs  | 

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Let's not forget that the Mets knew about Putz's elbow issues prior to the trade.

We hardly knew ye, J.J.

From here on out, I look forward to reading USS Mariner’s weekly minor league recap detailing the exploits of Cleto, Carrera, Carp and Vargas.

by All Shook Down on Aug 25, 2009 11:39 PM EDT reply actions  

That trade really should be the end of Omar

I mean, hindsight being hindsight and all, the results are just such a disaster. Its really hard to lose so much value in any deal. Heilman’s been better than Putz, Chavez much better than Reed, Smith even a bit better than Green, and for that, we gave away three useful prospects, including the guy who would have played first base this year, a guy who wasn’t yet 20 and could throw high 90s heat, and a guy who looks like a fourth outfielder in waiting. BP’s got Carps MLE EQA at .272, while Murphy is at .252. Blech.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Aug 25, 2009 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

This trade didn't turn out well

but given what Putz did in 2006 and 2007, and after coming back from injury for the final two months of 2008, it’s really hard to blame him for making the trade

Heilman? He has a 4.55 ERA and a 1.52 WHIP this year, that’s horrible

Endy wasn’t much better than Reed and he’s out for a while now

I’ll admit Smith is better than Green

In all honesty, the only really valuable piece we gave up is Cleto, and he’s only 20, so anything could happen

by Syler on Aug 26, 2009 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with that

but before the Mets made the trade, they should have had Putz checked out. He had injury problems at various times in 2008. But I guess one of the pre-requisites to becoming a Met include “likely to be injured.”

Trying to believe is my full-time occupation.

by Preach19 on Aug 26, 2009 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Red flags throughout 2007 and 2008

He had issues with his elbow in 2007 and 2008, plus a ribcage injury which — and I might be wrong — suggests his body overcompensating for an injured arm.

by All Shook Down on Aug 26, 2009 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'd say Carp was/is pretty valuable

And also given Putz’s injury problems, the fact we knew about the elbow and the fact we had given an insane contract to K-rod and there were arms available on the market I’m still not sure, and wasn’t sure at the time, it was smart to invest so many resources in a set up man.

by Gina on Aug 26, 2009 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

this

The fact that the Mets KNEW ABOUT THE BONE SPURS is what makes it an inexcusable decision, to me.

by JoshNY on Aug 26, 2009 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Oh and the other two teams acquired players that'll contribute on the ML level for several years

Franklin Gutierrez is having a superstar season and Luis Valbuena is holding his own with the bat at least.

by All Shook Down on Aug 26, 2009 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

Chavez hasnt been better then Reed

if you’ve noticed, he got hurt in May, and is gonna be out until the beginning of next season

"Solo homers usually come with no one on base." -Ralph Kiner

by metsguy234 on Aug 26, 2009 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

rundown

heilman, smith > putz, green
chavez, carp, cleto > reed

reed >chavez

"Solo homers usually come with no one on base." -Ralph Kiner

by metsguy234 on Aug 26, 2009 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

that's not fair

endy injured himself on a freak accident colliding with a player who shouldn’t have been in his way.
i know you can’t guarantee a player wouldn’t have been injured playing somewhere else, but this one really was a freak thing.

by cntrlalt on Aug 26, 2009 12:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

the guys at whatever that place is called

Should tell Omar to get to work on the medical staff

by Gina on Aug 25, 2009 11:41 PM EDT reply actions  

this trade was when Omar died to me

Endy Chavez was, in 2006, a symbol of how well Minaya ran a team: find an undervalued guy who can play outstanding defense and pick him off the scrap heap to use as a 4th outfielder. Outstanding work, Omar.

Then, 3 years later, to trade him away in a deal that made no sense except in a Doing Something About It knee-jerk reaction to the bullpen problems of 2007 and 2008, well……

Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.

by Greenpoint Ian on Aug 26, 2009 12:12 AM EDT reply actions  

Because the better reliever had red flags

And the market was flooded with relievers. And we invested a crap ton of resources in two players to fix one small aspect of a team full of holes.

by Gina on Aug 26, 2009 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I don't think that the team was terribly full of holes at the start of the season

By now, absolutely. Left field would have been a problem. We really could have used Randy Wolf this year. I don’t think the team was full of holes though, there was just no one to fill those holes when they opened up.

Trying to believe is my full-time occupation.

by Preach19 on Aug 26, 2009 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

LF, 2B, starting rotation

There were lots of holes that should’ve been addressed well before the 8th inning guy. The fact is Minaya had tunnel vision and could only see problems with the bullpen.

And yes, ironically, 2B is the only place that isn’t a hole, but nobody could’ve seen Luis having as good a season as this.

Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.

by Greenpoint Ian on Aug 26, 2009 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

Those were sizable holes

but the bullpen was without a doubt the biggest hole to fill after seeing what happened down the stretch in 2008

by Syler on Aug 26, 2009 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

no

Bullpens are easy to put together if you know what you’re doing. See my below post.

Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.

by Greenpoint Ian on Aug 26, 2009 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

1b

was also not necessarily a hole but certainly a question mark considering Delgado’s age inconsistent performance/injuries the last few seasons. Also I’d say both corners were at least question marks.

And if you have no one to fill holes, and you have a team full of question marks to begin with, then you have some serious issues.

by Gina on Aug 26, 2009 12:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

LF was not a hole

if you were assuming that DMurph could:

a) play the outfield
and
b) hit the ball with corner OF production

This is one of your “known knowns” and “unknown unknowns” situations.

"If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it on the scoreboard?"

by hotspur on Aug 26, 2009 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

When.....

1) Mike Pelfrey is your #2, and Perez your #3, your team has holes. When you sign Livan and Redding, you have done nothing to plug said holes. Add Maine coming off arm surgery, and you have a disaster on your hands.

2) Daniel Murphy is your LF, your team has holes.

3) Brian Schneider is your opening day C, your team has holes.

by fxcarden on Aug 26, 2009 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

exactly

+1

Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.

by Greenpoint Ian on Aug 26, 2009 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

There really weren't any good setup men in the FA market though

Trading for a guy who had that bad of an elbow before the trade was probably not the best way to go

The best thing that could have happened would’ve been for Omar to do the Heilman/Feliciano for Huston Street…

by Syler on Aug 26, 2009 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

good set-up men are easy to find

If you know where to look. Closers are obscenely overrated relative to their value to the club, and the fact that Minaya couldn’t think outside that box in the move to fix the bullpen is another strike against him.

Ryan Madson….Neal Cotts….Chad Fox…..Ben Weber…..what do these guys all have in common? They were all excellent set-up men for world champions this decade, and none of them had the glitter of being a closer. But they were good at what they did. Darren O’Day is tearing it up for the surprising Texas Rangers. I wish the Mets could’ve gotten someone like him…..

Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.

by Greenpoint Ian on Aug 26, 2009 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Before this year he was

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Aug 26, 2009 5:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

lol

not really. type A compensation too.

foolish.

by firejerrymanuel on Aug 26, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

And it's not JUST trading for a guy with a bad elbow

It’s investing 7 players + upwards of 55 million dollars, counting K-rod’s contract and the money we paid Putz, into two innings of baseball with so many other question marks on the team and when so many other things had gone wrong the last two years.

by Gina on Aug 26, 2009 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

two half-innings

unless we’re using Frankie and JJ to pinch hit sometimes

by JoshNY on Aug 26, 2009 9:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

OMARFAIL

when will someone stand up in a presser and demand Omar account for this idiotic trade, or any other dubious moves. Here, I’ll write out the question and the media can just read it: “Omar, the guy had preexisting elbow problems—what were you thinking?”

I’ve given up Omarball for “Shaq Vs.”

I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya

by itsmetsforme on Aug 26, 2009 12:56 AM EDT reply actions  

Don't, it's just as big a waste of time.

The problem is there’s not enough content to fill out the full hour, so they pad it with announcers, trash talking, and stuff like a press conference. But that just slows the show’s pacing down and gets boring. Although it’s still less painful to watch than the Mets. With Johan gone, I’m not sure if there’s even a reason for me to watch another game this season.

by BobbyV_Incognito on Aug 26, 2009 2:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sounds like

Shaq Fu would be more entertaining.

"I was so frustrated [Saturday], I [could have said] anything," ~Oliver Perez

by Lance Johnson on Aug 26, 2009 4:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

THOLE!

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Aug 26, 2009 5:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm enjoying it

Shaq doing a victory lap after beating Serena Williams at air hockey is good TV

by JoshNY on Aug 26, 2009 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

geesh you have that right

a 6 minute volleyball game took 3 hours!

I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya

by itsmetsforme on Aug 26, 2009 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

it's hard to call for omar's head

when we gave up nothing.

i’m sorry, but jason vargas is a nobody who was out of options. carp was redundant and i have serious reservations about him being anything than a platoon DH. cleto is a big fastball and that’s about it; he’s far far away. and carrera was nothing special.

last year green was better than both righties and lefties than smith.

we gave up redundant prospects and one lottery ticket for the chance to get a frighteningly good closer when healthy.

it was a gamble. it didn’t work out. it happens.

by firejerrymanuel on Aug 26, 2009 1:39 AM EDT reply actions  

Carp was redundant?

Yes, I can see how you might think so, what with all of the other 1Bs we have on the roster. We went into the season with exactly 2 players who we knew could play first: Delgado and Tatis. Both well over 30, and one coming off a highly improbable half-season, and had had barely 300 ML ABs during the previous 5 years. The only major-league ready player in the minors we could call up to play first is Nick Evans, and we all know perfectly well you don’t think he’s good enough to be a starter. Right now, we’re playing Daniel (86 OPS+) Murphy at 1B. I’ll be the first to admit that he’s definitely not this bad a hitter, but there is no way that Murphy should be playing first for us on a regular basis. Carp wasn’t redundant at all, and as it turns out, we desperately needed him this season. Like I said in the other thread yesterday, he’d probably be our starting 1B right now if we hadn’t traded him.

As for the other guys, they weren’t exactly useless, either. Joe Smith’s FIP this season is 3.77, and that’s despite his GB% falling from 62.6 to 55.3. Heilman’s FIP is 4.47, and he’s managed to cut his BB rate back closer to his career numbers. I understand the idea behind clearing out the bullpen since it was chiefly responsible for our not making the playoffs last year, but both Smith and Heilman have pitched well enough this season that they would have been useful to us. And the prospects aren’t ‘redundant’, either. Cleto may be far, far away, but he’s 20 and throws in the mid-high 90’s. There just aren’t many pitchers like that. Carrera has managed to lower his K rate despite moving into a new league, although his BABIP is absurdly high.

by BobbyV_Incognito on Aug 26, 2009 2:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

uhh

i fail to see how carp is guaranteed to outproduce murphy.

by firejerrymanuel on Aug 26, 2009 2:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

scouting

matters too.

and there’s no DH in the NL.

by firejerrymanuel on Aug 26, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Most Scouts had Carp above Murphy going into the season

And murphy no where on the radar, basically the only thing Murphy had on him was the 150 major league at bats.

by Gina on Aug 26, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not to mention there;s no dh in the NL could go for Murphy to as far as we know

And most reports said Carps first base defensive woes were overblown, his struggles mostly where when they tried to play him in the outfield.

by Gina on Aug 26, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd agree

except that he had this injury when we traded for him. We didn’t give up any star players, but we gave up a lot of depth this team needs. If Putz’s injury just happened during this season, then it was unlucky, but knowing of it and still making the trade is just idiotic.

And man, Endy’s catch! I was sad when I found out they traded Endy. Who didn’t love that guy?

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Aug 26, 2009 5:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

It just seemed like Omar was responding to

the media’s focus on what was the Mets’ most glaring problem from last year, while totally ignoring any other areas where the Mets had issues. Everyone was like “God this bullpen sucked! It cost us the playoffs!” and so Omar was like “Oh yeah, check this out: KROD and PUTZ= greatest bullpen EVAR” without thinking about things like the objective value of a setup man or minor league depth. But why would he think about those things, they smack of paperworkiness.

by dtro on Aug 26, 2009 8:43 AM EDT reply actions  

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