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Meet Chris Carter

                                                   Chris_carter_2_medium

So we may as well get to know this supposed PTBNL for Wags as it looks like hes going to be auditioning for the role of 'First Baseman of the Future".

Star-divide

 

Chris Carter is a 6", 225lb L-L 1B/OF.  Carter was drafted in the 17th round of the 2004 draft by Arizona.  Even before college Carter was a star hitter who made Baseball America's Preseason All American team as a high school senior in '01.  As a college freshman Carter burst onto the scene posting a 1.034 OPS and earning Stanford's 'Freshman of the Year' honors.  However, the following season he fell victim to a bit of a sophomore slump due to a shoulder injury.  He bounced back in his final college season thanks to a nearly 1:1 K/BB which has become a trademark of his game.  Though he didn't quite live up to his 'middle of the order' billing at Stanford he certainly produced well as a high on-base guy with good pop and solid plate discipline throughout his college career.

 

                                                                                               *****************

 

Carter was devastating in his debut against lo-A pitchers batting .336 and mashing 15 hrs.  In 2005, his first full season, he posted a .296/.377/.531 line, hitting 31 bombs between hi-A and AA.  The most impressive stat was his 77/65 K/BB when compared with the hr total.  Scouts gushed over Carter's plus bat speed and impressive contact ability for a power guy as well as the natural loft in his stroke and his strong plate discipline.  Following the '05 season prospect guru John Sickels wrote:

 "Carter has a very good, even excellent, bat.  He Has power, hits for average, controls the strike zone, and duplicated his success against Dougle-A pitching...I am very confident in his ability to hit."

In the same offseason Baseball America wrote:

 "Carter's tremendous bat speed and plus-plus power make him a potential middle-of-the-order threat...he's capable of hitting 500-foot bombs.  He doesn't need to make perfect contact to hit the ball out, nor does he need to pull the ball." 

(Here is some footage of his swing where coincidentally enough he is knocking in the first RBI in Citi Field history. A good omen maybe?)

Carter continued his crushing ways in 2006 in AAA where he smacked 19 more bombs, batting .301 with a .395 OBP and actually struck out less than he walked (69/78).  Despite continued offensive success in '07, Carter was dealt to the Red Sox in a 3-way deal in mid-August.  However, this came at Carter's own request due to the presence of Conor Jackson in AZ.

The Sox opened Carter in AAA Pawtucket to begin 2008 and he had a customary .300/.356/.515 line with 24 hrs, though his K/BB did worsen.  This season Carter is doing more of the same in Pawtucket batting .280 with 14 bombs and only 59 k's.  He has had a couple cups of coffee with Boston but other than leading the club in hitting in the spring (.359 with six home runs, four doubles and 10 RBI in 64 at-bats) Carter has not yet seen any real major league action.

However, the reason Boston is so willing to deal him, the same reason why you won't see him on any Red Sox top prospects lists, is his defense.  Carter's power bat is and always has been his only useable tool.  As a defender, he is bad.  He is a first baseman by trade but suffers from hard hands and poor footwork.  His lack of speed also cuts into his range.  Recently the Sox have moved him to the OF but his lack of speed and arm strength make that a stretch.  Often labeled a future DH, Carter brings a bat to the party and thats about it.

 

                                                                                                   *****************

 

There are definitely some things to like about Carter:  His bat has shined at virtually every level he has played, and his plate discipline and contact ability are for real.  John Sickels wrote that if he were judged on his bat alone Carter may grade out as a B level prospect (which is high praise).  What's more, as a hard swinging lefty he has always managed to put up even splits against both lefties and righties.  And for what its worth, Carter is known as a very intense "grinder" who gives it his all despite a lack of physical gifts.  And like many Stanford products Carter is very intelligent and utilizes that intelligence well, studying pitchers and making adjustments when necessary. 

However, he definitely has some warts:  First off the kid is a few weeks short of 27 which is quite old in prospect years.   And more importantly his lack of a true position is worrisome since we obviously cannot utilize the DH which scouts have suggested for him as early as college.  His seeming inability to man a decent first base kind of neutralizes that bat.  What's worse, many (including BP's Kevin Goldstein) see Carter as a quad-A slugger type.

Overall:  This guy's game should seem familiar because he is a very similar player to one Daniel Murphy.  Lefty, no glove, good plate discipline in the minors, even his swing (same as above) looks very similar to Murph's, though with more loft and a little more open.  He's even got the Murphy's trademark intensity for god's sake!  But what we have to hope is that the power Carter has flashed throughout his career is for real and can hold up against our cavernous home ballpark.  Basically we're hoping for a Carlos Pena scenario:  A power-hitting, high OBP lefty first baseman bounces around to a few teams before establishing himself as a middle of the order hitter.  However, all in all I'd say that while Carter isn't a bad player to take a chance on and I'm somewhat optimistic with him, his downside probably makes him less valuable than the 2 first round draft picks we sent along with Wagner (assuming the second PTBNL is a nobody, which might not be true).

 

Most Optimistic Comp:  Todd Helton-lite

Most Pessimistic Comp:  Dan Johnson

Most Realistic Comp:  Dan Murphy 2.0

 

(Here is a pretty interesting Q&A with Carter from SoxProspects.com, conducted only 3 weeks ago)

 

*As an interesting aside, to me this move indicates that the Mets will be filling the vacant first base spot from within for at least the next 1-2 years.  Meaning some combo of Murphy, Evans, Ike and now Chris Carter.  If you throw enough crap against the wall, right?  I suppose I can stop dreaming about Adrian Gonzalez...

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I really hope this guy works out

That means the Mets won’t need to sign Pujols.

Smoltz.

by vivaelpujols on Aug 26, 2009 3:15 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

ha

that was EXACTLY what i was thinking when i typed ‘the next 1-2 years’

pujols=FA in 2011

by robcast23 on Aug 26, 2009 3:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh God.

He’ll be 32 when he’s eligible, 31 if hell freezes over and they don’t pick up his extremely cheap option, and he’ll have at least four years of unbelievable excellent baseball. I’d be shocked if your Cardinals let him go, he is that franchise. But damn, a Wright, Reyes, Tejada?/Havens?, Pujols infield would be, well if Wright, Reyes, and Pujols each produce like they have the last few years, that would have to be one of the greatest infield’s ever regardless of who plays second.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Aug 26, 2009 5:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Murph at second

"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"

by firejerrynow on Aug 26, 2009 7:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Castillo

Dude’s hitting .321

by Kepler on Aug 26, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He'll be out of baseball by 2011

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Aug 26, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

seriously

based on what? the guy is in contention to finish in the top 3 in batting.

i do think we should trade him now while his value is up but theres no way in hell he’ll be out of baseball by the end of next season.

by robcast23 on Aug 26, 2009 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He's hitting quite well this year

But his defense sure looks to be declining. If he ends up being a -10 defender, he has to continue a league average offensive pace to be a decent player. I’m not sure we can expect that in two years.

Smoltz.

by vivaelpujols on Aug 27, 2009 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great write up

His bat obviously seems really good, but I’d still rather have the two draft picks, mostly because his lack of defense. I’m still holding out hope the other player is Westmoreland, possibly because its 5:13 in the morning and I’m delusional.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Aug 26, 2009 5:13 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Also, Carter can play the outfield

"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"

by firejerrynow on Aug 26, 2009 7:24 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Todd Hundley could “play the outfield”, too. By all accounts this guy is a complete butcher with the glove.

by tm on Aug 27, 2009 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Adam Dunn with less power, lower OBP, and worse defense.

Omar lobby Red Sox for average minor league talent.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Aug 26, 2009 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here was I thinking: "Hey, how difficult must it be to teach a guy how to play 1B?"

Murphy managed to learn the position quickly. Then I remembered there are those kind of Adam Dunn-type-reallyreally-bad-defense players. I want my draft picks back.

by Michkin on Aug 26, 2009 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nicely done

Overall, I think the value here is a bit less than you get for spending the extra few mil for the rights to two draft picks, and then spending the money to sign said draft picks. But considering the recent stinginess in the draft, I think the Mets got about as close as they could in dealing with the Red Sox and looking to save a few bucks. I was expecting to be more disappointed than I am when I heard the “Double-A guys” tag. As we’re all often wont to point out, for all his misgivings, Omar is still a pretty decent scout/talent evaluator, and Carter seems like a nice little low risk, decent reward type pickup who could step in and give some value back to the big league club right away. If we are to understand the FO will no forgoe first base in the short term, at least we now have a sense that they’re not quite so tied to the idea as Daniel Murphy as a future long-term solution. It should be interesting to see Carter and Ike Davis go head to head this Spring, hopefully with a more pedigreed talent manning LF.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Meddler on Aug 26, 2009 9:25 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Not too bad

btw, he turns 27 in a couple of weeks, not 26.

Initially, I was killing this trade, thinking the draft picks were more valuable. I also can’t really get past the fact that Omar gave up a bunch of prospects in the offseason, including Carp, for Putz. And now, he is dealing Wagner, who I think is better than Putz, and now healthy, for essentially the equivalent of Carp alone.

Still, when you add it all up, the $3.5M is worth something. There’s real value to that supplemental pick, but at that point in the draft, it’s probably not worth more than that $3.5M. From a recent analysis at fangraphs, the average 6 year production of a pick in the 20-30 range was $6M. Figure the supplemental and second round picks are less than that, and if you are paying $3.5M to get it, plus another $1M for a signing bonus, you aren’t really coming out much ahead.

And it’s not a sure thing to get those picks. If Wagner does the smart thing, as unlikely as that hypothesis sounds, he probably accepts arbitration. Now I do think he really wants to close and might rather accept less money to sign elsewhere, like Washington. But I doubt anyone will give up a 1st round pick to sign him. At best, I think you might get a 2nd or 3rd rounder. At that point, the pick itself probably isn’t worth more than about $2M.

On top of which, Carter really can hit. I guess I’d forgotten how good he’s been. He hit 31 HR as a 22 year old in the minors, and then last year had 24 in only 121 games. Plus, decent discipline, and rarely strikes out.

I think the AAA slugger label still applies somewhat, but let’s be honest, on this team right now he should be batting cleanup as soon as this trade goes through. With the team the Mets have been fielding lately, the most dangerous hitter in the lineup has been Jeff Francoeur. This IS a AAA team. Carter, along with Francoeur, Castillo, and Pagan, instantly becomes one of our best healthy position players.

Honestly, having a guy like this under control for his prime years, where he’s not even arbitration eligible until he’s 30, might actually be worth a few million. At worst, assuming Ike eventually beats him out for the starting job, he becomes much needed power pinch hitter and backup for that bench. At least the Mets are going in the right direction here, shedding bad unproductive payroll for cheap young talent.

I still don’t like it as much as the Francouer trade though.

 

by acerimusdux on Aug 26, 2009 10:04 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I agreed with you until this:

I still don’t like it as much as the Francouer trade though.

I don’t really like the idea of giving up the picks for Carter and ______, but this is exactly the kind of player the mets should be taking a look at because he’s (“gasp”) likely to be above replacement level, which is more than most of the backups/lineup fillers they pulled out of the woodwork this season.

by mets81 on Aug 26, 2009 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And also

Because he’s very cost effective. He has barely any service time to speak of, so if he’s at all decent, it really opens up spending flexibility in other areas.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Meddler on Aug 26, 2009 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Even if it prevents the Mets from giving an unneccessary

major league deal to the likes of Cory Sullivan, then it will offer some benefit.

by mets81 on Aug 26, 2009 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure

about the “likely to be above replacement level” part.

After looking more closely at how much those minor league numbers were aided by favorable hitting environments, he really isn’t as good as I’d thought. I don’t think he’s an upgrade over Murphy. Just a bit more power maybe, but less defense. He’s likely another sub .750 OPS bad defensive 1B.

I don’t know that they could have done much better though. I’m back to thinking they could have kept Wagner and hoped he pitched well enough to risk offering arbitration. But, that still seems a bit of a long shot, so I can’t kill them for saving the $3.5M. I suspect that’s really all they got out of this worth much value though, is that salary relief.
 

by acerimusdux on Aug 26, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know

his power is certainly real and his plate discipline has been established over a long time. He may be a low strikeout, high walk, power guy who doesnt do much else, but that would still be better than Murphy who really is only low strikeout. I dont think his lack of defensive acumen at 1B will drag his value below replacement level.

by mets81 on Aug 26, 2009 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

His power is being overrated.

In triple-A, he’s averaged 21 HR per 600PA while playing in Tucson (a fantastic place for hitters) and Pawtucket (a good place for hitters). That’s probably 15HR in the majors. Prbably less in Citifield.

His triple-A away split (does not include his ’07 Tucson campaign which is missing a home/away split):
.281/.351/.434

by OlStubbleBeard on Aug 26, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah but that's a bit misleading

He’s actually hitting better on the road this year than he is at home, mostly because of a good BABIP at home and a poor one on the road, but he also has a high LD%, minorleaguesplits has his luck and park neutral line at .316 / .374 / .467.

I also think his raw power is a bit misrepresented because he does so well with contact. His HR/BIA rates are pretty solid, 10.3% last year and 7.1% this year (statcorner). Not spectacular, but solid. HR/FBs are 12.5% this year and 14.8% last year. Again, not off-the-charts spectacular, but what you’d expect a guy with about average MLB power might do in Triple-A. And its entirely possible that a shift in approach that allowed for more swings and misses, harder swings, and more flyballs would tick all those numbers up a bit.

Its not some kind of spectacular return, but for what the Mets gave up, a month of relief pitching and the right to two draft picks, and that they were able to move some salary as well, its a pretty solid value.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Meddler on Aug 26, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

392 ABs say he’s a 23% line drive guy
2214 ABs say he’s a 17% line drive guy

Similarly, hitting better on the road this year doesn’t make the past any different. In fact, it’s factored in those numbers.

Now if he was 22, I’d pay more attention to this year’s stats but since he’s 26 and there’s much more data, I look at it all if possible. The .434 slugging is probably a little bit low but even if it’s really a .450 how do you think that translates to the majors? I see a 20HR in triple-A hitters parks. I just don’t call that a guy with power, especially not at 1B.

by OlStubbleBeard on Aug 26, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

that's not much an argument

it doesn’t matter what his career LD% is. the bottom line is that he IS hitting linedrives this year, and considering his low BABIP, his overall number should look better based on the LDs he’s been hitting.

the point of bringing up his luck adjusted numbers is merely to show that his AAA should be higher.

by firejerrymanuel on Aug 26, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

His career LD% matters because

It’s a better representative of what to expect in the future. Yes he’s hitting LD’s now but that doesn’t mean he’s going to keep it up. Especially when years worth of data says he wont.

by Gina on Aug 26, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe a change in his approach
CH: Now, you’ve been heating up in July, your batting average is currently up over .300. (Carter grins and nods) And you clearly know what I mean too. What’s clicking for you right now, have you made some adjustments?
CC: I’m getting pitched to a little different, in a lot of respects, and I’ve got to be on top of my game every time. I’ve got to be fine-tuned. I’m not going to get away with having a day when I’m a little off with my technique. I’ve got to be really precise. Just accepting that, accepting that maybe the best thing I can do here is get a base hit to left-center instead of trying to hit a home run every time, that’s really helped. Just staying through the ball, going to left field, brought up my average. (That approach) brought up my walks, helped me see more pitches, and it’s really helped me work the counts, where the month before, I had the mentality of being aggressive, of "get your ball and hit it out, hit it so far you’ll never see it again." Like yesterday, I was in a fastball count, the guy had trouble throwing strikes, and I thought "for sure, he’s gonna throw a fastball." Fastball count, and he’s just thrown seven balls in a row. He throws a changeup low and away. But you know what? It’s making me a better hitter. My technique right now is better than it was last year, even though my numbers aren’t as good. It’s going to pay off somehow, somewhere.

by Michkin on Aug 26, 2009 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right

But the point wasn’t that he should be expected to be a 22 LD% guy, just that given that given his components and batted ball numbers, if you’re willing to accept GB/LD/FB numbers as accurate, his luck neutral numbers would call for a .350 BABIP, not a .300 BABIP (minorleaguesplits). If I had to guess what his future LD rate would be, I’d be much more inclined to use his career rate, but the point is you’d think his Triple-A numbers this year would be better, and even despite that, and despite the fact that he makes lots of contact, he has some interesting power. You don’t often see guys who walk almost as they strike out put up such solid raw power numbers.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Meddler on Aug 26, 2009 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

OK let’s give him a 30 point boost in average on his away numbers for 2009, a 30 point boost to OBP and a 60 point boost to SLG

Here’s the new line for his triple-A career: .288/.358/.448

How do you think that translates from 2 hitters’ environments in triple-A to a pitcher’s park in the majors?

That’s a 160 IsoP in triple-A. The NL average for all positions is 150. I don’t think he has above average power across the majors, let alone at 1B. That’s my point.

Re: the change of approach, of course it’s possible but it’s going to take much more than a sketchy LD rate (as all minor league ball-in-play rates are) over the span of 392ABs to convince me he’s changed who he is.

by OlStubbleBeard on Aug 26, 2009 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not trying to convince you he is the 1B of the future

I’m just trying to find a possible reason his LD% is up. I still want my 2 draft picks back.

by Michkin on Aug 26, 2009 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry, having too many arguments at the same time. I’ll stay out of the line drive business :)

My only point was that he hits for a good average but his power itself is nothing special.

by OlStubbleBeard on Aug 26, 2009 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh I don't disagree with you

Again, I’m not saying he’s some kind of special player, or even an average MLB first baseman. The high LD rate wasn’t meant to suggest he made some improvement, but if you buy into the minor league batted ball rates, it suggests two things:

1. His BABIP this year is low. He’s a better contact hitter than his batting average suggests.
2. He may have geared his approach more in the direction of making contact and hitting line drives, as opposed to swinging hard and trying to hit lots of home runs. His HR/FB and HR/BIA numbers still indicate power that’s about average (perhaps a bit below for the majors), even in a hitters park, and even in Triple-A.

Really, he seems like a nice low cost gamble for maybe a 2.0 WAR type first baseman, if things work out well, which would be much better than we’ve gotten from Murphatis.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Meddler on Aug 26, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'll just say 2 more things

1. I’d be ecstatic with a 2.0 WAR at 1B
2. I’d be really peeved is somehow, Carter wasn’t one of the 2 coming to the Mets, cause I spent way too much time perusing his stats.

by OlStubbleBeard on Aug 26, 2009 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Haha +1

Agreed on both points.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Meddler on Aug 26, 2009 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That was my point

that he’s not a bad gamble, with some actual power and is more likely to produce over replacement (in 2010) than some of the other internal 1B options

by mets81 on Aug 26, 2009 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Carter vs. Murphy

Not to rehash the debate above, but comparing the MLEs per minor league splits:

avg. obp. slg. ops. AB HR BB
.256 .303 .406 .709 480 15 32 Carter 2008
.239 .289 .354 .643 401 09 28 Carter 2009
.238 .290 .370 .660 370 09 28 Murphy 2008

It’s not really clear he has much more pop than Murphy at this point. His MLE for this season is very similar to Murphy’s last year. And he’s 2.5 years older than Murphy. I guess he has similar plate disipline, and a bit more natural power, but probably not enough to make up for possibly being considerably worse defensively. The scouting reports on his defense sounded brutal.

He could be better than Murphy, but it should be close. If you’re hoping to strike gold with a long shot C+ prospect though, I suppose it’s better to have two chances rather than one. This is not a good return if you really could safely get a draft pick for Wagner. At this point though, I’m not convinced there will be any draft picks. There would have been too much risk there for the Mets. In which case, the Mets probably got what return they could, on top of $3.5M of salary relief.

by acerimusdux on Aug 26, 2009 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i'm confused

why you seem to think theres no way wagner declines arbitration. he has been very public in stating his desire to close and he wouldn’t get that opportunity with either the mets or the sox. i think its almost a sure thing that somebody is getting picks. i get the injury concerns but its not like hes got to shoulder the load for the remaining month. he’ll probably make 7-8 appearances (3-4 more for the playoffs) and then be done with it.

by robcast23 on Aug 27, 2009 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He's shown way more power

Than Murphy did in the minors. They really are clogging up the first base pipeline with semi-decent prospects (Duda,Davis, now maybe Carter). Too bad none of them can hit lefites.

by TeufelCat on Aug 26, 2009 10:47 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Carter's platoon split is much less frightening than Davis'

But either way, isn’t that what Nick Evans is for?

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Meddler on Aug 26, 2009 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think people are giving too much value to the potential picks.

There’s a very good chance that Wagner signs with a team who’s 1st round pick is protected, and there’s also a good chance that if a team signed 2 type A guys, Wagner would be the lower ranking one (giving us a second or third round pick). There’s also a chance he re-injures himself or struggles, which would pretty much guarantee he accepted arbitration if offered. Even if we recieved two picks for Wagner, there is at least as good a chance that those picks turn into Vineyard and Kunz rather than Holt and Davis (who still may not turn out any better than Carter and whatever else we get).

I also think people are undervaluing guys like Chris Carter. I understand getting guys like Westmoreland or Kelly would be better for the Mets, but there was really never a chance that would happen. Carter is nearing the prime of his career, and is going to cost the ML minimum for the next 3 years. Part of the issues the Mets had when the injuries began is that we had no talent like this at AAA. Looking back at past drafts, Carter would be a decent return for a supplemental pick. While he may never be Albert Pujols, he has the power and plate discipline to at least be a useful piece (and this franchise is sorely lacking those types of players in the upper minors). The 3.5 million in salary relief should allow the team to add another good bullpen arm in the offseason as well.

"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green

by Schmidtxc on Aug 26, 2009 11:42 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

+1

well said. I’m less upset with this trade now than I was when it sounded like they were getting a bag of balls in return.

by cjmulrain on Aug 26, 2009 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wish we'd find out who the other player is.

The sox have plenty of other guys on their 40 man who could be useful to the Mets.
http://www.mlb.com/team/roster_40man.jsp?c_id=bos
George Kottaras coulp be useful for us, and would probably be expendible for the Sox. Josh Reddick wouldn’t be a bad 2nd piece either.

"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green

by Schmidtxc on Aug 26, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

maybe kottaras

as he doesn’t look like a fulltime starting major league catcher. and i would be happy to have him.

but theres no way they give up reddick.

in all likelihood the second guy will be a nobody from the low minors. to me this deal was about chris carter and dumping salary.

by robcast23 on Aug 26, 2009 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I didn't actually mean to type reddick there...

I was actually thinking Hunter Jones looked like a realistic possibility. Reddick was kind of wishful thinking. I doubt it’s a lower minors guy, as they wouldn’t need to clear waivers and the Mets could take them today. The sox need to clear a few 40 man spots this offseason, so I really think it’s a 2nd player from there.

"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green

by Schmidtxc on Aug 26, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i hope you're right

even hunter jones would be fine with me as that 2nd guy.

by robcast23 on Aug 26, 2009 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not necessarily

Could easily be someone from the later rounds of the 2009 draft who isn’t eligible to be traded yet. Jones would be okay, its more of the same for the Red Sox, shipping an arm that could be serviceable just because they have so much depth ahead of him.

Otherwise I imagine there’s a list of guys the Sox drafted in 2009 the Mets could choose from. Probably not anyone from the first 5 or 10 rounds, but one can hope. Maybe someone like Kendal Volz. Definitely no one like Refroe or Youninger. Seth Schwindenhammer’s off to a rough start, maybe the Mets could pry him loose. Honestly, in part I’m just fantasizing about people trying to talk about racial biases with two thirds of an outfield named Schwindenhammer and Nieuwenhuis.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Meddler on Aug 26, 2009 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It can't be someone from the 2009 draft.

The PTBNL has to be named within 6 months of the trade being finalized. The 2009 draft class can’t be traded until 1 year after signing, so next June at the earliest. Guys that signed in June can’t be traded that way until December, guys that went unsigned until the deadline can’t be a PTBNL until 2/15 of next year.

"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green

by Schmidtxc on Aug 26, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Is it one year?

I thought it was nine months for some reason, I didn’t check though so I guess I was wrong. I guess it would have to be someone from the 40-man then, which unless its someone like Kottaras, hardly seems “insignificant”. Jones would be marginally interesting at the least. More likely someone like Enirque Gonzalez or maybe if we’re lucky Marcus McBeth, who at least seems to be able to hold his own in Triple-A.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Meddler on Aug 26, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Everything I've ever read said one year,

but even 9 months would require the deal be completed by 2/25, and draftees who signed the day of the draft wouldn’t be eligible until 3/9, 3/10, or 3/11 depending on what round they were drafted in. Unless it’s a situation where the Mets have a choice of several low level players or cash, I’d think it almost has to be a 2nd player on the 40 man.

"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green

by Schmidtxc on Aug 26, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i actually wouldn't mind kottaras

in fact as another young catcher with plenty of cheap seasons left and some definite pop (he hit 22 bombs at AAA last season and has 66 in the minors) i think he’d make a very interesting platoon partner with thole. the one problem is that they both bat lefty but both of them have pretty good splits against lefties. a 50/50 napoli/mathis type platoon where thole is the high on-base guy and kottaras is the power guy with a total cost under $1M for at least 2-3 years to come would actually suit me just fine. another problem is that both are not seen as very good defenders behind the dish, but if just 1 of them could develop even average glove skills that would be an excellent platoon.

by robcast23 on Aug 26, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd be ok with Kottaras

If nothing else, it decreases our reliance on “Short Swing” Santos.

"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green

by Schmidtxc on Aug 26, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think a GCL guy

I saw this somewhere, and don’t think it was just speculation. Toby Hyde had it maybe.

by acerimusdux on Aug 26, 2009 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah

i saw that too

by robcast23 on Aug 26, 2009 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah

thats whats confusing me about all this

by robcast23 on Aug 26, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It was the Boston Herald

and they have a pretty bad rep with Sox fans. The fact that they reported Carter as a 38 year old in the same article doesn’t speak highly.
http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/sports/red_sox/?p=2710&srvc=sports&position=recent

"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green

by Schmidtxc on Aug 26, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

it sounds like

they’re referring to wagner as the 38 yr old in that article

by robcast23 on Aug 26, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They may have been thinking Wagner's age when they were writing about Carter,

but they weren’t reffering to Wagner when they called Carter a 38 year old DH/Outfielder. It’s just typical of the Herald, they never bother to check with sources or proofread their work before they publish it. Relying on them for info is alot like believing what you read at NYBD (who has “a source familiar with the Mets thinking” telling them that the Mets wouldn’t have offered arb anyway).

"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green

by Schmidtxc on Aug 26, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would throw this guy out there in Sept. for some starts

this team has zero to lose, see what he’s got, maybe he pops a few into the Pepsi Porch.

by David G on Aug 26, 2009 11:58 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

He won't be here...

The reason he’s a PTBNL is because he won’t clear waivers so he can be traded before the end of the offseason. We won’t see him in a Mets uni until spring training.

"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green

by Schmidtxc on Aug 26, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

*end of the season*, not end of the offseason

"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green

by Schmidtxc on Aug 26, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

oh

that sucks. He’d probably be our best player immediately.

by cjmulrain on Aug 26, 2009 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

which mean a free pass to the DL

we are not allowed to have “best players”

by fxcarden on Aug 26, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

is that true though?

that would be a gigantic dick move by the team claiming him, as they’d know he’d just get pulled back. So basically, that team would be saying, “no, we don’t want this guy to be able to play MLB baseball and audition for a job, and we want to spite the Mets.”

by firejerrymanuel on Aug 26, 2009 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know

Most teams would have a use for him on their 40 man, and most really should put a claim on him if he was put on waivers (there’s always a chance that the reports are wrong about him going to NY). There’s a good chance he was already on waivers earlier in the month and got claimed. Most teams put most of their players up, and then pull them back if claimed.

"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green

by Schmidtxc on Aug 26, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Its possible he was already even put on waivers and claimed

He’s exactly the kind of guy the Red Sox would have wanted to have the flexibility to deal for some kind of return if possible. The sad part is, if the Sox were in the NL, there’s a decent chance the Mets might have been the first team on the waiver order to make a claim on a guy like Carter. These are rough times.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Meddler on Aug 26, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know if he'd have slipped to the Mets.

Most bad teams in the NL could find a use for him, and a guy at minimum salary would fit into anyone’s budget.

"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green

by Schmidtxc on Aug 26, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"Most bad teams in the NL could find a use for him"

You say that as if the Mets weren’t one of those bad teams

by JoshNY on Aug 26, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That wasn't what I meant, but I can see how that wording would imply that.

I was trying to point out that the Pirates and Nats could probably have just as much use for Carter as the Mets, and might well have claimed him.

"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green

by Schmidtxc on Aug 26, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah I know

Assuming something close to the original order is still intact someone else likely would have claimed him, but the chance was further from zero than we’re used to it being this time of year.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Meddler on Aug 26, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"First off the kid is a few weeks short of 27 which is quite old in prospect years."

OTOH, in that photos he looks about 8 and/or borderline brain-damaged. Perfect teeth, though — a Stanford tradition.

by Kepler on Aug 26, 2009 1:47 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

i do find it funny

that everyone has given up on murphy after his first 600 at-bats, in which he has a .750 OPS, without ever playing at AAA.

by firejerrymanuel on Aug 26, 2009 1:55 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Ive only given up on him as an everyday 1B

because he just isnt going to have the power to play there.

At 2B or as a “DeRosa-type” playing 4 or 5 positions and bench, I think he has some value.

by mets81 on Aug 26, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with you there...

Great defensive 1st basemen like Casey Kotchman are only passable at 1st without any power. Murph is adequate with the glove, but he really isn’t close to Kotchman’s defense. He really isn’t going to be an everyday 1st baseman without developing more power.

"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green

by Schmidtxc on Aug 26, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think its so much that people have given up on Murph

But he’s not a first baseman. He looks like a valuable reserve player, and the kind of guy who seems like the right kind of candidate to try to expand his value by exposing him to multiple positions. Never gonna have much power, likes to swing the bat deep in the count but has some kind of pitch selection sense.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Meddler on Aug 26, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm sure this has already been covered

But for what it’s worth for people worrying about first base being clogged Davis isn’t stuck at 1b. As far as I know there’s no reason to think he couldn’t play in one of the corners. And well I’m not sure Murphy is really good enough to be blocking anyone.

by Gina on Aug 26, 2009 2:30 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I don’t know about Davis’ range but I remember reading something about his arm being excellent and obviously wasted at 1B. If he can play an average RF defensively (and I’m really not that sure he can), his ceiling is much higher.

by OlStubbleBeard on Aug 26, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He pitched

at ASU… Actually I remember watching him pitch in the CWS this summer and he hit 90-91 on the gun. So his arm is probably average to just above average for an outfielder. He doesnt have your prototypical arm for a RF so Id have to believe that since Ike throws left handed that he could perhaps be a LF’er. I dont remember the scouting reports on him athletically, but Id venture a guess that he could be passable out in a corner

by tbach81 on Aug 26, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Average to above average?

It’s AT LEAST above average and probably elite if he can hit 90.

by DannyMetsGeek on Aug 26, 2009 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I dont think

that it is… Id almost be willing to bet that most major league players can throw a baseball 90 miles per hour. Perhaps for a lefty that’d be above average, and since Ike is that would be a plus. However, he doesnt have an Ichiro or Vlad type of arm so he’s basically and average to above average arm. Just a personal opinion though

by tbach81 on Aug 27, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ehh

I severely doubt that most major leaguers can throw 90 MPH. I think you’re way off base here.

by DannyMetsGeek on Aug 27, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

yeah i have to agree, theres no way most guys in the league can hit 90…i doubt most could even hit 80

by robcast23 on Aug 27, 2009 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Most pitchers can barely hit 90

Francouer can’t hit 90.

Nothing can get by him; especially in a small room: Mike Francessa

by GenJackRipper on Aug 31, 2009 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, guys like Paul Janish and Tony Pena Junior hit 90

And Nick Swisher came close I believe. I would bet Francouer could hit 90.

Smoltz.

by vivaelpujols on Sep 1, 2009 7:40 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Isn't there that story

about Strawberry challenging Gooden to a radar gun contest, throwing well under 90 and hurting his arm? Did that actually happen or is that just an urban legend? Or did I make it up entirely?

by TheBigStapler on Aug 28, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There are plenty of holes to fill, there won't be any clogging/blocking

Murphy, Evans, Davis, Carter can all share the 1B/LF/RF
Plus there is always the injury-prone-veteran-who-will-surprisingly-get-injured player Omar will sign for 1B/LF.

by Michkin on Aug 26, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He's slow

He should definitely play 1B. He’s kind of slow for an OF corner, though he is a very good athlete and might be OK in RF because the arm. But he’ll be a good defender at 1B. Good hands, instincts, reactions. Doesn’t make sense to move him to where the speed will make him a liability.

by acerimusdux on Aug 26, 2009 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He doesn't look very athletic.

But then, neither do many of the current healthy Mets.

" THE METS 2009 SEASON HAS BEEN ONE BIG CAKE FART."

by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Aug 26, 2009 6:03 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

lol

Self-proclaimed president of the Pat White and Brian Hartline fan club.

by samdaman on Aug 27, 2009 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wasn't that Carlos Gomez routine?

"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green

by Schmidtxc on Aug 26, 2009 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

gomez was the bat sniffer

like one of those kilroy cartoons

by robcast23 on Aug 27, 2009 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

As hitters

Carter and Murphy are two different specimen totally. Carter is a power bat with stellar discipline.

Murphy’s a contact guy with above average discipline

by METSMETSMETS on Aug 26, 2009 11:42 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Also

Murphy is a solid fielder. Carter is DREADFUL

by METSMETSMETS on Aug 26, 2009 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ZIPS is pretty high on him at least

He’s projected to have a .348 wOBA, which is solidly above average. The problem is, with his -10 defense at first, he has have around a .375 wOBA to be a league average player.

Smoltz.

by vivaelpujols on Aug 27, 2009 12:29 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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