You Always Fear What You Don't Understand
Mike Silva's New York Baseball Digest is a blog dedicated to coverage of the Mets and Yankees. The tone of the site is similar to sports talk radio. There is an open and prominent aversion to statistical analysis, except for the occasional pieces by Howard Megdal. Anything you might expect to hear on a Mike Francesca or Joe Beningo radio program is what you will find at NYBD. To Silva's credit, he responds to comments on his posts (both positive and negative) and seems to have interesting guests on his radio show, which I admittedly do not listen to. A few telling snippets from NYBD posts:
Sports use to be a sanctuary away from the tedium of school work. Bored with studying for your biology midterm – turn on the Knicks. Don’t care about the regents? Listen to WFAN. Not quite sure if that is the case today with the hostile takeover of SABR measurements. If there is one area of baseball where I will draw the line on numbers it’s with defense. You have to watch a player to know how he is defensively. Not all groundballs and zones are created equal. With that being said, if you’re into UZR, check out a friend of NYBD James K at Amazin Avenue. He breaks down the Mets team UZR over the years. Watch the hate mail I get on this one. Is SABR a research society or a political party?
The most amazing debate I have seen since entering the world of independent media is the one being waged by those who believe baseball is simply run by numbers. It’s the proverbial tail that wags the dog mentality that quite simply puts numbers out of context... After reading columns like the above you should feel confident that this is a man [Jerry Manuel] that has a very key ingredient: ability to understand the human side of the game. There are reasons why Moneyball has yet to win a championship. Its managers like Ozzie Guillen, Joe Torre, Terry Francona, and Charlie Manuel that have shown it takes more than knowing the numbers to guide a group to victory.
All season we have debated, much to the fans chagrin, Joba Chamberlain bullpen vs. starter. That is no longer the issue today because it’s clear that the organization is fully committed to developing Joba as a starter. If he were going to the pen, they had their opportunity, and the decision was Phil Hughes. Just like the organization did with Melky Cabrera and Phil Hughes last year, they should send Joba down to Scranton for seasoning.
[Note: Silva thinks that 23 year-old Joba Chamberlain, who has the best ERA and 2nd best tRA of anyone in the Yankees rotation, should be in the bullpen or sent down to AAA.]
Considering this, I was not surprised at what I read yesterday, in response to a piece I posted Wednesday, "Players To Avoid This Offseason":
As for using WAR, any stat that using a fictitious player as its benchmark automatically gets thrown in the trash by me. James you had me up until you cited WAR.
In another time, I would have been tempted to dial up the snark and "FJM" something like this. However, that's getting old and rather than mock I'll try to educate.
It is pretty clear Silva misunderstands the concept of WAR ("wins above replacement") and replacement level in general. I'll start with a brief, and hopefully easy to follow, explanation of the latter. A replacement level player's production can be easily replaced by readily available talent at minimal cost to a team. A team full of replacement players would be expected to win anywhere from 45-50 games a season, which varies based on league and some other factors. Current examples of "replacement players" are Willie Bloomquist, Cory Sullivan, Luis Ayala, Willy Taveras, and Nelson Figueroa. Basically half of the Mets roster fits this description. See this piece by Keith Woolner for more on the replacement level topic.
Eric noted in yesterday's Applesauce that Silva's misguided criticism of the "fictitious player" notion could also apply to other statistics as well:
What’s the benchmark for batting average: a nondescript .300 hitter. Sure, there are plenty of actual .300 hitters out there, but when you gauge the competence of a player by his batting average you aren’t comparing him to Emmet Heidrick; you’re comparing him to some fictitious .300 hitter.
I guess we won’t see Mike Silva refer to a player’s batting average anymore. Or RsBI for that matter, since the benchmark for that is a fictitious slugger who knocks in 100 runs.
The major difference between referring to Chipper Jones as a .300+ hitter, for example, and referring to Damion Easley as replacement level is that one concept is widely understood by baseball fans and one isn't. The "fictitious player" argument is not valid, and usually the last resort of the anti-saber crowd looking for any excuse to offer criticism while pretending to understand the idea.
This takes us to WAR. The goal of the stat is to determine how many "wins" a player contributes above or below that of the theoretical replacement player. A win is equal to 10 runs, as explained here, so the calculation of WAR is actually driven by how many runs a player contributes compared to the replacement level player, whose WAR is 0. Factoring offense, defense, and adjustment for position and playing time, a run value is derived. Without going too calculation crazy, the most important takeaways here are the adjustment for position and the importance of defense. Certain positions are tougher to play than others. Generally, the tougher positions do not feature as many great hitters as the easier positions. The defensive spectrum, from easiest position to play to hardest is as follows: DH-1B-LF-RF-3B-CF-2B-SS-C. As such, players on the right side of the spectrum get more credit for playing more demanding positions. Additionally, high-level defensive metrics like UZR and +/- aim to assign a run value to a player's defense. When it is said that Endy Chavez is a +10 defender, this means he saves 10 more runs with his glove than the average player at his position. These are the factors that make WAR quite useful for comparing values of players who play different positions.
A good illustrative example is a comparison of Hanley Ramirez and Ryan Braun this season. They have posted the same OPS (.961) in a comparable number of plate appearances. However, Ramirez is a 5.1 WAR player while Braun is at 4.0 WAR (according to Fangraphs). The main difference here is that Ramirez plays a premium position where offense is scarce, while Braun plays an easy position where offense-heavy players are the norm. Also, Ramirez is more capable defensively than Braun. Despite nearly identical offensive production to Braun, Ramirez is a full win more valuable because of the position he plays. Accounting for position and defense is the main reason why players like Joe Mauer, Ramirez, and Chase Utley are underrated, while guys like Jason Bay, Carlos Lee, and Justin Morneau are overrated. Pitcher WAR is obviously calculated differently, and is done using FIP or tRA while accounting for innings pitched.
One will often see WAR abbreviated to "wins", as in "David Wright is a 7 win player." A 2 win position player is about average; 4 wins and we're looking at an All-Star; 6 wins will have a player in contention for MVP and Cy Young Awards; 7-8 wins is a Hall of Fame season; any more than that is an all-time great season (we have seen Albert Pujols, Barry Bonds and Alex Rodriguez have such elite seasons recently). The same scale generally applies for starting pitchers, but is much different for relief pitchers. In his outstanding 2005 season, Mariano Rivera was a ~3.2 win pitcher. Frankie Rodriguez broke the single season saves record in 2008 but was just a ~1.8 win pitcher. Relievers do not provide nearly as much value as position players or starting pitchers, no matter how dominant.
Refer to the Fangraphs Glossary for a better WAR tutorial by Dave Cameron (scroll down the page to see the links). The concepts may not be easy to grasp at first, and my explanations above are a bit clunky, but when understood they will enhance one's knowledge of the game. Just ask Nate Silver.
In February, I used Sky Kalkman's WAR spreadsheet to "post-dict" the 2008 Mets season. I input the components of WAR to determine how many wins the Mets would expect to have based on the metric. Initially, I came up with 87 wins, but I have since updated the spreadsheet to fully account for baserunning (linked here) and the number is bumped up to 88 wins. How many wins did the 2008 Mets actually have? 89. How many were predicted based on Pythagorean Record? 89. The "WAR method" came within 1 win of these marks, which I think is pretty impressive and a rudimentary way of displaying the value of WAR as a metric. Additionally, a quick look at Sean Smith's all-time WAR leaderboard at Baseball Projection shows us that the best players in baseball history, per general consensus, are also the best per WAR.
No stat is infallible and there are plenty of legitimate criticisms of WAR (defensive metrics aren't perfect; simply stating a win value does not tell us a player's strengths and weaknesses). Regardless, the goal is to sift through the noise and determine which stats are the best for player evaluation. WAR is certainly one example. This is not some fringe science, practiced only by those residing in their mothers' basements. It's going on in front offices around baseball, be it Tampa Bay, Boston, Oakland, Seattle, Texas, etc. I respect that people choose to enjoy the game however they like. Sabermetrics is not for everyone, I understand that. However, to "trash" a stat without understanding what it's about, especially when the stat is in use in Major League Baseball everyday, is flat out ignorant. Let's move away from the idiotic WFAN model of baseball discussion. Let's try to improve the discourse, not bring it down.
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Comments
Great post
This is a really good write-up of the value of stats.
One minor issue: “Relievers do not provide nearly as much value as position players or starting pitchers, no matter how dominant.”
I think a dominant reliever CAN provide comparable value; I just think we look in the wrong places for that value. WAR is context-neutral, but for relievers, context is everything. In 2008, Brad Lidge had a WXRL of 7.6, and a WAR of 2.2. 2.2 wins for his “perfect” season doesn’t pass my smell test. Would anyone argue that the Phils would have won the NL East in 2008 with a replacement-level closer? (They won the division by 3 games).
By using WAR there, I think that we’re putting a square peg in a round hole, as far as providing credit/assessing value goes. I don’t mean this as an individual criticism; I think that this sort of thing goes on throughout the statistical community.
Otherwise, top notch post. :)
by sjohnson125 on Aug 7, 2009 6:23 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Plus theres something to be said for the Mystique of a closer. Obviously its a more mental part of the game, but if you have a reliever whose flat out shutting people down then its likely to continually build on itself. Batters can psyche themselves out when a hot reliever is having an off night.
by WebBard on Aug 7, 2009 6:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+Rec. Relievers are tricky
Relievers value depend not just on their abilities, but also on how they are used by the manager and what kind of games the team plays. Socks! won’t win 3 Cy Young if Jerry keeps using him once a week or as the long man. A closer playing for a losing (loser?) team might not have many leads to protect, compared to another reliever playing for a team that is always involved in tight games.
by Michkin on Aug 7, 2009 6:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed that applying WAR to reliever is not ideal
but regardless, relief pitchers simply aren’t as valuable or important to a team as position players. It’s wiser to spend big $$$ on position players and starting pitchers rather than relievers.
by James Kannengieser on Aug 7, 2009 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed, yet the Mets have 3 closers on their payroll
Found a this story at DRaysBay Why High Priced Non-Elite Relievers Aren’t Worth the Money
by Michkin on Aug 7, 2009 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WAR
It doesn’t account for leverage, correct? So a season like Lidge’s would go slightly underappreciated by WAR based on this.
by DannyMetsGeek on Aug 7, 2009 9:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fangraphs WAR accounts for leverage
by James Kannengieser on Aug 7, 2009 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting
And Lidge was still only a 2.2 WAR guy last year? Even Big Mouth Billy Bass was a 2.0 WAR guy per your spreadsheet.
Thanks for the correction.
by DannyMetsGeek on Aug 7, 2009 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think so
WAR for pitchers is based on FIP. They do use a different replacement level for relievers, to account for it being a different talent pool. But there’s no adjustment there for context. It’s meant to be context neutral, as that is the best indicator of talent.
WPA is what to look at if you want to measure a players performance in context. There, Lidge was worth 5.37 wins last year. If you use WPA/LI (this is calculated per play, not a single calculation) that removes the impact of leverage. And there he was worth only 1.62 wins. So much of the value of his impact was due to where he was used, not doing especially well in those situations. His “clutch” measure was +1.20 wins, so he did create some of those extra wins by being better in higher leverage situations.
The question is, which number do you pay Lidge for? Unless there is a repeatable skill at performing better than others in high leverage situations, you really should be paying him for his talent, not where he is used. If you can easily find a similarly talented pitcher, worth about 2 wins over average, and plug him into the same situations (1.91 average leverage), you might expect he would still give you about a +3.8 WPA, with no special clutch ability (or maybe I should say with average clutch ability).
This may not be 100% true for all relievers, I think there do seem to be some guys with better or worse ability to handle high pressure situations. But I think the difference there is a lot less than people often imagine. Often people draw conclusions on small samples, which may just be luck.
Looking at Lidge this year is maybe a good example. He is -1.78 in WPA this season, with a -0.17 clutch.
by acerimusdux on Aug 7, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
But
clearly many of the powers that be in baseball believe that closers possess a repeatable skill at performing well in high leverage situations, or they wouldn’t be paid so well.
I’m not saying they’re right, I’m just saying that in all likelihood Lidge and other closers will get paid based on this belief.
by JoshNY on Aug 7, 2009 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WAR for pitchers is based on FIP, yes
but, as far as I know, Fangraphs factors leverage into the calculation of WAR for relievers. I don’t have time/inclination to find the link explaining it but I’m pretty sure of this. Statcorner does not adjust their version of WAR for leverage.
by James Kannengieser on Aug 7, 2009 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I looked through their documentation
I saw no mention of it and they explicitly say it is meant to be context neutral.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/pitcher-win-values-explained-part-two
Why did we use FIP? I know this a popular question, and it’s something I wrestled with myself. However, what I couldn’t get away from is that we wanted the context sensitivity for the position player and pitcher win values to be as close as possible. wRAA, the offensive input into Win Values for position players, is context-neutral – a hitter does not get credit for his situational performance, such as hitting well with runners in scoring position. Since we aren’t giving hitters credit for situational performance, we can’t give it to pitchers either, in order to maintain the same situation neutral scale.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/pitcher-win-values-explained-part-seven
That does not mean these win values are "wrong". We’ve removed the situational context of the pitcher’s performance, just as we do for hitters. Pitchers can either underperform or outperform their win values with extreme performances in "clutch" situations. We can measure the differences in these situational performances by looking at a pitcher’s WPA or WPA/LI and comparing it to his Win Value. For too long, we’ve lacked a resource for context neutral win values for pitchers, having to settle for situational win values that include a lot of variables. These pitcher win values offer us a great opportunity to explore more of what is in a pitcher’s control and what is not.
Now their documentation isn’t always foolproof (though it has greatly improved), and maybe they have decided to do something different for relievers somewhere, and maybe there would be some justification in that this is arguably part of a relievers “value”, but it would be inconsistent with their emphasis on win values being context neutral, and only including what is known to be in a pitcher’s control.
I also think WAR would be higher for Lidge in 2008 if it included context. Obviously it’s not going to come out the same as WPA, as it is a different method, but the 2.2 wins they are showing is coming from 21.7 runs saved based on a 2.4 FIP. I suspect that means a replacement level FIP of just over 5.00 (5-2.4*69.3/9 = 20 runs).
by acerimusdux on Aug 8, 2009 1:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe those WAR tutorials you cited pertain to starters and not relievers
Starters leverage is usually around 1.00, so it’s not really worthwhile to adjust WAR for it. I can’t find the exact link which says that Fangraphs adjusts for leverage to calculate reliever WAR, but check out this post at BtB from a few months back. The article itself isn’t the telling thing, but if you scroll down to this comment from “dkappleman” (AKA David Appelman of Fangraphs) he says:
Just to make a small correction to the article, FanGraphs does use (gmLI + 1)/2 as the leverage component for the WAR values for relievers.
Again, maybe I’m wrong or something, but this is one of the head honchos at FG saying that they factor leverage when calculating reliever WAR. When I have more time I’ll try to find some more “official” documentation of this fact, I suppose.
by James Kannengieser on Aug 8, 2009 1:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
I think you are right on that. It appears they are using some leverage there (regressed 50% towards one). The documentation I cited does include relievers, they are discussed in the part on replacement level, but it doesn’t mention this. And probably should have at least noted it as an exception. But like I say, the documentation isn’t always 100% complete.
For Lidge, his gmLI was 1.6, so that means they would use 1.3, so that 21.7 runs was really 16.7 runs. I can believe that. They are probably using a replacement level RA of about 4.85, or FIP or ERA of about 4.5.
by acerimusdux on Aug 8, 2009 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve complained about the new stats, and it does seem like taking some of the humanity out of baseball. But he doesn’t do himself any favors by the people he named,
Torre’s World Series wins were with the highest payroll in baseball
Francona’s World Series wins were with the 2nd highest payroll in baseball
Manuel’s World Series win was still a 100+ Million dollar payroll (A record for the Phils at the time)
Guillen’s world series win almost seems a bargain at a 75 Million dollar team, the following year they skyrockted to a 106 Million payroll and did worse.
If your going to point out managers who have won the world series using their gut or their instinct or humanity over stats, these aren’t exactly the most spectacular candidates.
by WebBard on Aug 7, 2009 6:24 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Great article
One of the problems I think, in regard to more than just baseball, is what seems to be modern anti-intellectualism in at least this country. People hate to admit that others smarter than themselves and refuse to learn new methods no matter how much it may help. The first quote is the most telling. Sports is supposed a sanctuary from school work so we can’t try to expand ourselves to understand it better? Video games are also supposed to be mind numbing experience away from the likes of math and history, but to create a video game, you have to understand how computers work, how to make better graphics, figure out realistic motions for the characters, etc. The same can be said of baseball, if you want to enjoy it, great, watch the game root for your team, go to the games, gut drunk and have fun. But if you want to know the best way to play the game, the benefit of a walk, how much a bunt hurts your teams chances of scoring, you have to go beyond just your perception of the game.
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
by Evan_S on Aug 7, 2009 6:39 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Yes yes
That is basically my main issue with the anti-stats writers. It is just a further display of anti-intellectualism seeping upwards. If I debate this stuff with my dad and he doesn’t get it or agree with me at all or just dismisses me—fine, whatever. He’s a lawyer and high school soccer ref, so who cares? We can still watch the mets and agree that Ollie sucks and Omar is a dolt. But willful ignorance, when it is presumably your job to learn and know things is just baffling and frustrating. And that is why I hate most sportswriters (and our previous prez, sorry about the politics). They are somehow secure in their job through anti-intellectual appeals when the opposite attitude could actually make them good at their jobs.
by dtro on Aug 7, 2009 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
With these “journalists”, shouldn’t they feel a responsibility to deepen their understanding of the game as much as possible?
by DannyMetsGeek on Aug 7, 2009 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are other sports for that.
Sure you can just sit enjoy the action and get drunk. But, that’s what hockey and football are for. Baseball is way too slow deliberate a game to sit through 9 innings without beginning to at least consider possibilities and probabilities.
by acerimusdux on Aug 7, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Slam dunk.
Nice work, James.
We've got ourselves a ball club, the Mets of New York town!
by kingcritical on Aug 7, 2009 8:23 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Nicely done
also, nice job on explaining WAR, not slamming Silva FJM style. Though that would’ve been funny.
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Aug 7, 2009 8:25 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
To be fair, there is a HUGE difference between his perception of WAR and your perception of batting average.
One’s batting average is CREATED by taking hits divided by at bats. Their WAR is created by comparing the statistics of one player against a non-specific “replacement player”. Yes, there are people who are “replacement players”, but the thing is that you actually come up with the stat by comparing to a player that is unidentifiable.
I get the use of WAR, and it doesn’t bother me. But your comparison of WAR and BA are completely different.
by ljshorty89 on Aug 7, 2009 8:36 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Well
I think the point is in the interpretation. Regardless of how BA is actually calculated, it still has to be interpreted. If you knew nothing about baseball, a .300+ BA is just as uninterpretable as a 7 win player, perhaps even less so.
by mnbv on Aug 7, 2009 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I would agree to an extent. But I’m just saying that I can see how it is more difficult to accept and analyze a statistic with no simple means of comparison. With batting average, you rely solely on that player’s results. With WAR, you’re relying (I assume, I’m not 100% sure on how WAR is calculated) on whatever is valued as “replacement level” for that season…
by ljshorty89 on Aug 7, 2009 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, they both don't really show why a player is good.
Is it BABIP? Offset by low OBP? These all must be taken into consideration with BA.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Aug 7, 2009 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But that’s not the argument here. The argument is over being able to compare a player based on statistics based solely on whether that individual player gets a certain number of hits; or comparing them to some, honestly, slightly awkward “replacement level” player. With batting average, even if it doesn’t actually tell you how good someone is, you can judge them compared to anyone you want based solely on their merits, as opposed to "how much better is this person than a useless, unnamed, non-specific player.
by ljshorty89 on Aug 7, 2009 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How is it easier to judge?
You have player A with a .280 BA, and player B with a .290 BA.
OK, you can compare player A to player B. .290 to .300.
Player B is .010 better.
Now, with WAR, you have player A with 2.1 WAR and player B with 2.6 WAR.
You compare player A to player B. 2.1 to 2.6.
Player B is 0.5 wins better.
Now, that isn’t going to change no matter what the replacement level is. If you change the replacement level it changes for everyone. Raise it a tenth of a win, and you have 2.0 compared to 2.5, player B is still 0.5 wins better.
But, since the concept of “replacement level” does seem foreign and less intuitive to many people, in many cases I prefer using the average player as the baseline. People talk all the time about whether a player is above or below average, and seem to have an intuitive idea of what that means. I’m not sure why replacement level is more confusing to them, but converting WAR to WAA is trivial enough (subtract 2 wins).
by acerimusdux on Aug 7, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can see your point, and on some level I absolutely agree.
But at the same time, it’s the idea that when you use BA for example, you’re comparing say….David Wright to Ryan Zimmerman.
With WAR, you’re saying David Wright is better than Pedro Feliz by a larger margin than Ryan Zimmerman is.
So, while the logic is similar, and the comparison is there….my point is that if you’re comparing two players…sometimes it complicates things to compare them by comparing each to a third player.
by ljshorty89 on Aug 7, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But why use BA for those purposes
Why not use obp, or ops or wOBA or 1000 other metrics where you can directly compare to players? It’s not like the jump is BA then directly WAR. BA is like the bottom of the rung.
by Gina on Aug 7, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That comment right there is the comment I agree with most. I personally use OBP a little and OPS+ most commonly. I’m not a huge WAR fan, as everyone can probably tell.
But for the average baseball fan (and therefore 90% of media sources that cater to the average baseball fan), BA is the easiest.
by ljshorty89 on Aug 7, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it may be easier for them
But I’m still going to argue with them about it. It seems that as much effort that is put into reasons why is isn’t pure/correct, that time could just be spent actually learning about it. Knowing what WAR is and how it’s used doesn’t mean that you have to live by it.
ain't had enough...
by BlackOps on Aug 7, 2009 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just a question
how is baserunning factored into WAR? Is it done via wOBA, or something else?
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Aug 7, 2009 9:08 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Fangraphs wOBA includes stolen bases and caught stealings
but not everything else. I used Baseball Prospectus’s baserunning stats for the WAR spreadsheet. Subtract EQSBR from EQBRR to find out how valuable (in runs) a player’s baserunning is, not including SB/CS.
by James Kannengieser on Aug 7, 2009 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
okay, that wokrs
how does SB/CS get incorparated into wOBA, like what is the value of SB and CS? I know in batting runs it’s .22*SB, and -.38*CS
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Aug 7, 2009 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's there, but it's small.
It won’t make or break someone’s value like batting or defense.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Aug 7, 2009 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well done, James
The key to all of this is citing what is “average”
That’s the hardest thing for me to quantify when using these stats. There is no mention of “average” or what would be considered above or below normal.
Great piece.
by The 'Ropolitans on Aug 7, 2009 9:25 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think
that actually watching a player is the most valuable scouting you can ever have, provided you know what you’re looking at.
That said, you need to have stats like these to back up what you’re seeing. I hate when people go by one or the other. There is no successful team in the major leagues that doesnt use a combination of both. If a guy like Silva wants to go by “the human component” then he has absolutely no business even being a sports writer, because it’s quite obvious he doesnt know the first thing about baseball.
Without advanced statistical evidence, you’ll wind up signing overrated bums like Abreu, Orlando Hudson, or Freddy Sanchez. Sure they’ll give you a nice OBP and a bunch of Web Gems, but they dont really contribute to the team’s success.
by Steeeve on Aug 7, 2009 9:28 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
"I think that actually watching a player is the most valuable scouting you can ever have"
To an extent, I guess this is true, but then sample size questions arise. Are you just watching a player for one game? For a week? For a full season? Because I mean, yeah, probably seeing Adam Dunn crush one 460-foot home run is the best way to convince yourself “this guy is a pretty good power hitter,” but if (for example) you watch the Mets play a couple of games during one of Wright’s cold streaks and he strikes out a bunch, you might be left with the impression that he’s a bad player, when looking at his overall performance would make it apparent that that’s not true.
That’s the point of comprehensive statistics like WAR – they attempt to aggregate all those things that have an impact on a team’s ability to win (so not jump-throws from shortstop) that you would notice if you were watching a player into a composite that tells the whole story. Because it’s just not feasible to watch every game played by every player, and if you limit the scope of your player assessment to players you’ve been able to see often (see, for instance, the discussion yesterday about how Omar tends to bring back players he’s had with the team before, AHern, MAnderson, Roberto Hernandez, etc.) then you’re limiting your ability to find effective players.
by JoshNY on Aug 7, 2009 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Because it’s just not feasible to watch every game played by every player"
Question: Do Major League teams assign a scout for each team (to follow all year)?
by Michkin on Aug 7, 2009 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dont think so
I’m pretty sure they just have a few scouts that watch various players of interest at the team’s command.
by Steeeve on Aug 7, 2009 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
remember now in the digital age
they can watch people’s at bats easily
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Aug 7, 2009 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
True
But you’re not going to go out and trade for a guy without watching film or scouting him a few times, unless you’re Omar. When you want to trade for a big name player like Roy Halladay, you dont just suddenly become interested and trade for him the next day, you scout him over a period of several weeks until you get a consistent picture of his abilities.
I honestly dont think Omar looks at hand scouting or stats. Seems like he just picks names out of a hat filled with former Expos players.
by Steeeve on Aug 7, 2009 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Per Cerrone
James Kannengieser of Amazin Avenue spares Mike Silva of NY Baseball Digest and gives a well-written explanation of WAR.
…i wish for a day when Baseball Fundamentalists and Stat Geeks finally understand that no one approach will predict the future… but, both p.o.v.’s can help get us in the best position to make the best decision possible…
Can someone tweet him that the fundamentalists and stat geek divide doesn’t really exist anymore. The good front offices combine both approachs and have been for some time now and most “stat geeks” would never choose to decline more data in their analysis such as “fundamentalist” scouting reports or pitch f/x which is more “fundamentalist” than “stat geek” if you think about it.
by Sokojoe on Aug 7, 2009 9:42 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I see your point, but I think he’s talking more in the realm of fans.
In the front office, yes the two “sides” are being combined, but in this realm, as we see here, there is still a divide between those of us fans who think that basic statistics are all we need, and those fans that think that every letter of the alphabet should be represented (tRA, BABIP, and whatever other stats I’m missing).
Not to attack those other statistics, I think they’re useful sometimes, but I will admit I prefer using simple statistics like OBP, SLG, OPS, OPS+, etc…..
by ljshorty89 on Aug 7, 2009 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Word, I can see that
but I feel that the MSM and FireJoeMorgan and even Cerrone perpetuates the smack talk amongst fans by not mentioning that the actual baseball teams themselves use both methods and making it seem like there are just two sides among fans with a line drawn, pick your side and such. If there were just two sides I personally find the “educated” elitest worse than the cranky old straw hat scout.
In regards to your stat choices, it’s always good to learn about new stats, BA got me into OBP then OPS, OPS+ → EqA → wOBA, it’s kind of annoying to have to reset your baseline every once in a while but the people that came up with the newer stats try to make it easy, like the average OBP in the league is around .330 so the average wOBA is roughly .330 to give everyone a baseline to work with. But if you choose to use only certain stats to enjoy the game, that’s cool, some people say cucumbers taste better pickeled.
by Sokojoe on Aug 7, 2009 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pickled cucumbers?!
What’s next, pretzeled bread? Iced cream?
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Aug 7, 2009 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I agree. Honestly, to me, I feel like when I first got into baseball when I was about 10, I used the easy stats: BA, RBI, HR, R, etc. Over the years I moved forward, and I actually just started looking at OPS+ in the past year or so. And I’d like to make clear because I’ve had this argument here before….I don’t think OBP or anything is the ultimate stat. I don’t think that you can judge someone solely in one area or one type of stat.
But anyway, I think that honestly, I’m more willing to use a stat like OPS because it’s simple (farther over 100 is better, lower under 100 is worse, 100 is dead league average). Now, I understand some of those other stats….but not well enough to really utilize them. And I’ve never really taken the time to read up enough. If someone wanted to actually go through all these kinds of stats with various upper and lower case letters, I’m sure I’d actually use some of them, although probably not all.
But you’re right, each fan is going to judge stats differently.
by ljshorty89 on Aug 7, 2009 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great write-up, James
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Aug 7, 2009 9:45 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
seconded
it strikes the proper tone in my opinion rather than just throwing the word “idiot” around, which as everybody knows, is “toidi” spelled backwards.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Aug 7, 2009 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
an anagram of Tie Domi
is “me idiot”.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Aug 7, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Fun with anagrams:
Matt Cerrone: Rotten cream
Jose Reyes: Yes, so jeer
Mike Silva: Ask, I’m evil
Sam Page: Mega sap
James Kannengieser: Jerk, mega inaneness.
Eric Simon: So I’m nicer
Angel Berroa: Able groaner
David Eckstein has Grission: Hacker’s divinest diagnosis
New York Mets: My worst keen
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Aug 7, 2009 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
wait
Terry Francona is the reason the Red Sox won 2 World Series? Funny, I thought maybe Theo Epstein and Bill James and a bunch of statistical players helped just a bit. Glad to know I was wrong
by cjmulrain on Aug 7, 2009 9:47 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If the objection to WAR
is that it’s based on a theoretical player, then let’s make it real. In 2009, Chase Utley is 5.4 Wins Above Skip Schumaker, or WASS. Santana is a 2.4 WABA pitcher, Wins Above Bronson Arroyo.
by 1T on Aug 7, 2009 10:23 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Like I said, I think the issue is that the way to compare WAR changes every season(actually more often than that). Whereas BA doesn’t rely on anyone other than the player in question.
by ljshorty89 on Aug 7, 2009 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That should read, the players you compare to (the 0.0 WAR players) change….
by ljshorty89 on Aug 7, 2009 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
True
I see your point about how WAR can change depending on the season. But to use an earlier example, the same is true of BA. A .300 hitter in a season where the average BA is .200 is much different than a .300 hitter in a season where the average BA is .300.
Just because BA has the appearance of being static doesn’t mean it actually is. Context is important, and that’s where the concept of “above replacement” has value.
by mnbv on Aug 7, 2009 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would agree. But at the same time, with Batting Average, you can see that you’re judging the player based solely on his ability to get as many hits as possible in a given number of at bats. While it may be worse for comparison to other players, you’re able to look at it as simply a judge of that one player’s success.
With WAR, you’re judging him compared to everyone else. So, if there’s a season where (obviously a huge exaggeration) the average slash line in the MLB is .420/.500/.750, then a player who puts up .400/.450/.600 is "below average. and would have a poor WAR. Obviously he’d still have an impressive season. The thing is, while WAR is better for comparing two players, I’m not necessarily sold (and apparently neither are some other people) on it being a great metric for simply judging that ONE player’s success without comparison.
by ljshorty89 on Aug 7, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mike Silva is that you?
If league average OPS was indeed 1.250, then a 1.050 OPS is not really that impressive, as you assert.
by James Kannengieser on Aug 7, 2009 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, I’m not Mike Silva.
And I agree that the stats I laid out wouldn’t be particularly impressive BY COMPARISON. But my point is that while WAR is better FOR COMPARISON, I’m not necessarily sold on using it to judge ONE PLAYER’S success.
by ljshorty89 on Aug 7, 2009 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's the thing, though.
Baseball goes through different eras. An average player today would absolutely mash in the deadball era, and stars from there would probably struggle to keep starting jobs, just purely by athletic and medical technologies that have come in the last century. So you sort of HAVE to compare them to their peers. In an offense deprived era, an .850 OPS is much more impressive than in an offensive boom era.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Aug 7, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Somewhat, I guess. Although, to be completely honest, there’s only one important statistic: Team W-L Record.
by ljshorty89 on Aug 7, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But we're not talking team success
we’re talking player evaluation. A team that wins 105 games and the world series still is going to have a scrub on it or at least a guy who is average and is then overrated because of his team’s success.
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
by Evan_S on Aug 7, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
cough cough david eckstein cough
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Aug 7, 2009 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Success
I’m not sure what judging a player’s success is, if not through comparison.
If I went and took a third grade math test, I’m sure I’d rock that and get a 100. Does that mean I’m awesome at math?
If I went and took a college math test, I might get a 50. Does that mean I now suck at math?
A player’s ability to accumulate hits depends on more than his actual hitting talent, including the level of opposition. If the only pitcher Cory Sullivan ever saw was Livan, would he be a pretty successful hitter?
by mnbv on Aug 7, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Success is simply the frequency with which someone accumulates a positive outcome. If the only pitcher that Cory Sullivan ever saw was ME, and he hit 1.000, he’d be successful. It wouldn’t be impressive success, but it would still be success.
by ljshorty89 on Aug 7, 2009 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this just in guys
it’s being reported the Mets have traded Mike Silva to the Red Sox for Adam LaRoche. More details as they come.
King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president
by Sam Page on Aug 7, 2009 10:36 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Well, to be fair, Mike Silva lobby to be traded.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Aug 7, 2009 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great post. One quibble:
“It’s going on in front offices around baseball, be it Tampa Bay, Boston, Oakland, Seattle, Texas, etc”
True, but it seems to be absent in the Mets’ front office.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Aug 7, 2009 10:39 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Omar doesn't know what stats are beyon
WIns, HR, RBI. ANything that uses complex math formulas (h/ab) are beyond him
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Aug 7, 2009 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's here to be creative
not to do paperwork and long division and such.
by dtro on Aug 7, 2009 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not true
I think he learned what obp was a year or two ago. It’s why we signed Castillo, because he’s “an obp guy”. Maybe next year he’ll add ops to his arsenal.
by Gina on Aug 7, 2009 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Although unfortunately he seems to be of the mindset that obp guys are only important
in the first two slots. And only if they’re speedy.
by Gina on Aug 7, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And middle infielders.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Aug 7, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned
But one of my friends who’s a massive cowboys fan and baseball fan mentioned to me that the same things that Billy Beane did that was considering revolutionary to drafting, using computers for one, Tom Landry was doing in the 60s. He’s a legend and people think Beane is some sort of evil nerd sent to ruin baseball. It really does seem like baseball objects way more to progression than any other sport.
by Gina on Aug 7, 2009 11:42 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
totally
One time the FJM guys made a point about how no one complains about QB ratings, which have a complicated formula and where the ceiling is 158.3(!).
Check out this page.
We've got ourselves a ball club, the Mets of New York town!
by kingcritical on Aug 7, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except in SuperTecmo Bowl
I think you can have QB ratings up to like 550 in that awesome game. Throw a 99 yard bomb and see what happens. The NFL should adopt the Tecmo rating system.
by David G on Aug 7, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the qb rating stat they use in college goes up to ridiculous numbers like that
by Gina on Aug 7, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that was one I never understood
that is, why do they need a different QB rating system for college than they do for the NFL? as if one or the other wasn’t confusing enough.
by JoshNY on Aug 7, 2009 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually a lot of "stats" people do complain about qb rating
I think it’s the stupidest thing in the history of the football universe.
by Gina on Aug 7, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, yeah...
… but Beane didn’t have a fedora. Fedoras are comforting.
(Also, Landry’s jaw is squarer… more trustworthy.)
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Aug 7, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And that is why Mike Celizic is awesome and the rest of us are not

by JoshNY on Aug 7, 2009 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hatguy!
We've got ourselves a ball club, the Mets of New York town!
by kingcritical on Aug 7, 2009 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
On the fielding spectrum mentioned
I don’t think 2b should be considered the third hardest position behind short and catcher. Third base is a harder position than 2nd. You have less of a margin for error on grounders, you often deal with rockets, longer throws and the bunt play. The only thing somewhat tough about 2nd is turning 2 and not getting clobbered, but once you learn that technique of getting out of the way, it’s not that hard. You could make a case that third and center are both harder than 2nd.
by David G on Aug 7, 2009 12:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I like the fielding spectrum the way it is
Ignoring catcher, you can look at the fielding spectrum and anyone who can play a given position will probably be able to play the position to the left, however, most players will not be able to shift to the right. For example, a SS should be able to play 2nd (like BJ Upton) or 3rd (like BJ Upton) or CF (like BJ Upton.) Other examples include Aki Iwamura and Emilio Bonifacio shifting from 2nd to Third. It’s rare to see a shift to the right, with one example being Kelly Johnson moving from the OF to 2nd which I always felt was fantasy baseball bullshit and shouldn’t have worked out (ignoring this year’s hitting problems) as well as it did for the cheating Braves.
by Sokojoe on Aug 7, 2009 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not really true because
a lot of 2b could not play third, they would not have the arm for it (i.e. Castillo, Eckstein, Kaz Matsui, etc.)
by David G on Aug 7, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think 2nd
requires a little more range and athleticism than 3rd. 3rd is more of a reflexes position and requires a strong arm, but I would say 2nd is a little more difficult. Either way Fonzie kicked ass at both!
by dtro on Aug 7, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
2B usually have more range
Keep in mind, the average 2B is involved in 4.9 outs per game (assists+putouts) compared to 2.6 at 3B. It may be for that reason that teams tend to put better defenders at 2B rather than 3B. The defensive spectrum isn’t as much about how “hard” it is to actually play or learn a position, it’s more about the actual distribution of talent in MLB.
For what ever reason, on average, 2B have tended to be roughly 5 runs better defensively, and 5 runs worse offensively, than 3B. This has been looked at a number of ways, including studying players who played both positions or switched positions.
by acerimusdux on Aug 7, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ugh I'm wrong
There is no actual difference in positional adjustment between 2B and 3B. And, I’m thinking more of positional adjustments here, being more about the actual distribution of talent.
The defensive spectrum is more about being able to move from one to the other. Since the positional adjustments are the same, I guess it’s close enough between 3B, 2B, and CF to argue either way. I tend to think of CF as the most difficult, but the talent at 2B and 3B is also limited a bit more in that they usually have to be RH throwers.
by acerimusdux on Aug 7, 2009 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, makes sense
I’m just going by when I played (and admittedly it was high school and some D 3 college ball), I always found third tougher. I always felt like playing 2nd was a cake walk. If you just go by errors made (which I know is not ideal) you’ll almost always find that the avg. 3rd basemen has more errors than the avg. 2nd basemen despite less chances. And I don’t think it’s because they are worse fielders. It’s because the position is less forgiving and harder.
by David G on Aug 7, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, but...
… middle-infield defensive prowess has at least as much to do with what you reach as it does with what you do with what you reach. (dtro was making this point above.)
A theoretical 2B-playing Frankenstein monster who caught everything you threw at him and threw unerringly but moved like a man made out of dead-people-parts would still be a pretty sh*tty defensive second baseman.
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Aug 7, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah a good example of this is Ian Kinsler
He has awesome range but most of his career has been plagued by errors.
by Gina on Aug 7, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BTW:
Some high school ball, here, too. 3B did always get my heart going more than 2B.
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Aug 7, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Word, but I think you guys are using too much of your own experience
In my little league team, the worse players went to RF and if you didnt even have an arm it was 2nd, that changed a bit in HS but not really. That’s because most batters are pull hitters at low levels, plus the distance of the throw is much shorter. Also, the double play isn’t as important because low levels just don’t have the skill to turn it fast enough. Second base at the high levels isnt comparable to the low levels.
by Sokojoe on Aug 7, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it surprises me more that
2b is considered harder then CF…
by gbaked on Aug 7, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think center is harder than second
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
by squid92 on Aug 7, 2009 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
I think CF requires more speed. And good defense there can probably save more runs (as with increased range you take away extra base hits rather than singles).
But then, you don’t often see failed CF being moved to 2B, whereas it’s common to see guys who struggle at 2B get moved to CF (Sean Henry and Manny Garcia being recent examples in the minor league system).
by acerimusdux on Aug 8, 2009 1:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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