Ken Rosenthal: Troll Of The Day

by James Kannengieser on Sep 17, 2009 3:34 PM EDT Comment 39 comments

If you read about baseball on the Internet, you must have come across Ken Rosenthal's piece about Joe Mauer, the MVP Award and sabermetrics at FoxSports.com today. It features some worthwhile points and some not-so-worthwhile points about a favorite topic - discussion surrounding the MVP Award. He ultimately decides that Mauer is most worthy of the AL MVP Award, which is true. Praise is due for realizing that. He also writes some bizarre things about sabermetrics and even invokes the "it's a free country" platitude. I think I used to use that in kindergarten. I'm not going to explore the piece too much here because others have responded to it quite well already. Here are some, including the usual suspects:

It appears Rosenthal is familiar with the Internet sabermetric community (which I suppose includes Fangraphs, BTF, THT, BtB and The Book Blog, amongst others), so I think he is trolling with words like these:

Taking a contrary position does not make me just another unenlightened member of the MSM (translation: mainstream media). But it will subject me to a certain level of scorn for rejecting SGT (translation: sabermetric groupthink).

I just want to have a nice, civil discussion about a fascinating MVP race, a discussion that includes number geeks sitting in their basements, overworked hacks in press boxes across America and fans of all ages, colors and philosophies.

Rosenthal is smart. He knows any mention of "sabermetric groupthink" or "geeks in the basement" will rile people up. And on a certain level it did, judging by the responses all over the Internet. Hand-in-hand with this is increased attention, free publicity and an boost in hits to his webpage. These are all positive things for him, no matter how silly some (but not all) of his message is.

Congratulations to Ken Rosenthal, Troll of the Day.

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Comments

That's some mighty nice trolling, Lou.

Love Joe Pos’s response, though.

"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Sep 17, 2009 3:51 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs

I hate Ken Rosenthal, since he treated that Ibanez blogger like garbage even though Rosenthal apparently doesn't realize he does the same things he killed that blogger for.

But he’s not so wrong. It’s called a debate for a reason. There’s not necessarily one right answer. Do I agree it’s Mauer? Yes. But there are worthy alternatives to Mauer, such as Jeter, Youkilis, Cabrera, Morales, etc. I assume that’s all he’s saying, that there are alternatives to Mauer, and anyone who disagrees with the Mauer selection should still be allowed to defend their argument.

by Metzfan22 on Sep 17, 2009 3:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

hmm

I wouldn’t call the AL MVP race “fascinating.” In fact, that might be the last word I use at this point.

ain't had enough...

by BlackOps on Sep 17, 2009 4:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Yep, that's what I was going to say

The season Mauer is having is so much better than anyone else that the only thing that’s really fascinating is watching writers try to turn it into any sort of a race at all. Calling this a fascinating MVP race is like calling the 1986 NL East race a nailbiter.

Mauer update:
.374 batting average, first in AL (Ichiro, .354)
.441 OBP, first in AL (Youkilis, .421)
.610 SLG, first in AL (Youkilis, .568)

(It’s almost enough to make me feel bad for Kevin Youkilis, who’s having a pretty awesome season of his own and nobody at all seems to even be noticing.)

by JoshNY on Sep 17, 2009 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's not Best Player, though

Plus mauer has only played in 121 games thus far. And the Twins may not make the playoffs. Although the fact they are now in the race, 4 games out, may help him somewhat.

I’d probably vote for Mauer, but i could see people voting for Jeter and it wouldn’t bother me much. Mauer’s WAR is 7.5, Jeter’s is 6.4. And although it hasn’t been consistent, playing on a playoff team has counted somewhat.

Zach Greinke’s WAR is 8.3 but nobody is seriously making a case for him

by wobatus on Sep 17, 2009 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The Jeter argument does have a some legs IMO

So does Koukilis, but Mauer still is the MVP. Despite missing time and not being able to play everyday because he’s a catcher Mauer still does have a higher WAR than both those guys.

Not to mention Jeter’s WAR is lifted by his defense, which Mauer does not get the benefit of. I’d assume that if Mauer’s defensive worth to his team is equivalent to Jeter’s (which it is probably a vast understatement). If you simply add that to Mauer, he’s now at least 1.5 WAR more than Jeter.

I also don’t understand the MVP from a winning team thing at all. A player’s value is completely irrespective to the team he plays on.

by Balagast on Sep 17, 2009 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Playing on a winning team

I know it isn’t a specific criteria, but for whatever reason it seems to have influenced voters over the years. Like when Zoilo Versailles won in ‘65. In other sports I can see it maybe, some player on a losing basketball team putting up huge point and rebound numbers may not be as valuablle as someone with lesser counting stats on a winning team. I’m not saying that’s legitimate, just that it has historically been considered.

And if we go by WAR, Greinke is still up there at 8.3, crappy team and all, but although not handy I understand Mauer’s vorp is higher.

by wobatus on Sep 17, 2009 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Just because the voters have historically voted like that doesn't mean it's right

Individual players have a much greater impact on the success of football and basketball teams (especially basketball). The tendency to vote for players on winning teams in those sports makes a lot more sense than in baseball, imho. Baseball is a very individual team sport.

by James Kannengieser on Sep 17, 2009 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

baseball is an individual sport

exactly. This is why i brouht up basketball-it makes more sense to downplay big numbers on a losing team there.

Nevertheless, if it is close, I see no issue giving the award to a player on a winning rather than a losing team. Mauer and Jeter are far enough apart where it shouldn’t come into play. Youk a little back.

by wobatus on Sep 18, 2009 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed, being on a winning team and other intangibles should be tiebreakers in close races

not the basis for a vote, as is often the case.

by James Kannengieser on Sep 18, 2009 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

MVP is Best Player award

The most valuable player relative to the league, not team, is the best player in the league. People say otherwise to make a case for their guy.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 17, 2009 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

if you come in last

you could have the best player and still come in last. Some characteristics other than best player are mentioned.

There is no clear-cut definition of what Most Valuable means. It is up to the individual voter to decide who was the Most Valuable Player in each league to his team. The MVP need not come from a division winner or other playoff qualifier.

“The rules of the voting remain the same as they were written on the first ballot in 1931:

“1. Actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and defense. 2. Number of games played. 3. General character, disposition, loyalty and effort. 4. Former winners are eligible. 5. Members of the committee may vote for more than one member of a team.

I’d say 3 is meant to give some wide latitude to grission voters.

by wobatus on Sep 18, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

second paragraph above

Is also a quotation from the voting instructions, not my opinion. As for winners and losers, they don’t have to come from winners, it just is evident that sometimes that plays a role. Not always. When the Mets won in 1969, Mocovey was mvp, etc., not Seaver.

by wobatus on Sep 18, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Only playing in 121 games?

That makes him even awesomer! Not any less awesome.

Jeter had a whole extra month to accumulate more WAR.

Joe Mauer puts up .1 WAR just by rubbing the sleep outta his eyes in the morning. Derek Jeter siphons WAR from a hole in the right field wall at Yankee Stadium.

batting helmets. batting titles. obp.

by Durelo on Sep 18, 2009 4:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I will say though:

Reading this Rosenthal article, with his ESPN appearance with that Ibanez blogger, combining those two really show how Rosenthal hates blogs. He just hates the concept, and feels the need to use the “geeks in the basement” statement. It’s like since he’s a sportswriter for a high-end sports network, everyone should only read his material and should bow down to him. It’s despicable, and the reason I’ve hated Rosenthal since I saw him on ESPN that day, belittling the crap out of that blogger on national TV. Screw Ken Rosenthal.

by Metzfan22 on Sep 17, 2009 4:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

scorn, n.

1. comparison to reliable facts and statistics that suggest long-term trends. [i]The new cancer drug was subjected to a great deal of scorn by peer scientists before its approval.[/i]

phliadelphoe ite domum!

by Doc Manhattan on Sep 17, 2009 4:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

P.S. Sorry for the messed-up ital tags… I’ve officially reached too many internet communities when I cant remember the code standards for each.

phliadelphoe ite domum!

by Doc Manhattan on Sep 17, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I love

Rosenthal’s trade rumor coverage more than anyone else’s but his analysis of the game itself is pretty poor.

by TheBigStapler on Sep 17, 2009 4:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

i still can't believe wolfman hacked into Rosenthal's computer!

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Sep 17, 2009 4:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

oh noes someone dares not use sabrmetrics

"Solo homers usually come with no one on base." -Ralph Kiner

by metsguy234 on Sep 17, 2009 5:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

speaking of trolling...

"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Sep 17, 2009 6:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs

troll

I was just reading a debate about whether Armond White the film critic (movie reviewer) is a troll. large majority say yes.

by wobatus on Sep 17, 2009 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I see even Ebert joined that club

after trying to defend him.

"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Sep 17, 2009 6:28 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs

ebert

Yes, I saw that. White is just a horrible reviewer, whether he is troll or not.

by wobatus on Sep 18, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Make a case for a player using facts and logic

without using sabermetrics

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 17, 2009 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And how is OPS sabermetrics either?

Mauer: Best BA, OBP, and SLG in the AL, from the most important defensive position.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Sep 17, 2009 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sabermetrics definition from wiki:

Sabermetrics is the analysis of baseball through objective evidence, especially baseball statistics. That’s all it is.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 17, 2009 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Right, that's what I'm saying.

Using any sort of stat is quote unquote “sabr”. Why some people accept some stats but refuse to even consider others is beyond me.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Sep 17, 2009 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

before Bill James

You rarely saw on-base percentage mentioned. It certainly never came up during broadcasts. Batting average, home runs, rbi, that’s all they gave you. Francouer would have been right back then. The jumbotron (there were none) did not give obp or the obs components.

This is just to give the mindset of the “pre-sabre” days.

by wobatus on Sep 18, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And in the 11th hour, Metsguy swoops in and wins Troll of the Day!!!

HISSSSSS

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Sep 17, 2009 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

jesus ken

if you want to be a VagPak and vote for Youk or Jeter, go ahead. Who are you trying to convince?

by HotChipWillBreakYourLegs on Sep 17, 2009 6:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

You know who I feel badly for?

Ben Zobrist. The only person in the AL who’s performing on the same plane as Mauer, on a team that’s good enough to make the playoffs in any other scenario than the one they happen to be in, and he’s not even being mentioned in the MVP debate. I’d still vote for Mauer, but Zobrist’s #2.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Sep 17, 2009 8:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Word

Greinke also deserves consideration. He has the highest WAR in baseball (tied with some dude named Poo-holes). Him and Mauer are the two candidates in my opinion, though I’d go Mauer cause he’s a catcher, doesn’t get any help (or hurt) from defense as there is no trustworthy stat and had he not missed a month, he might be at 8 WAR by now.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 17, 2009 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Plus the Royals really, really suck.

I realize that the talent level around you doesn’t make you any less valuable, but man. The Royals really, really, really suck.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Sep 17, 2009 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

pitcher D

how much plus or minus does Greinke get for fielding in WAR? Bubkes, correct?

by wobatus on Sep 18, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Greinke's D

Know what’s cool? +/- rates pitcher defense as well, and has Greinke at +4, good for 7th best in baseball. Johan is at +4 also and Mark Buehrle is best at +9.

by James Kannengieser on Sep 18, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

True

but the point I’m making is the a catcher’s defensive is a big part of the game. Pitcher’s fielding, for the most part, doesn’t come into play that often.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 18, 2009 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Last I checked,

this is not a free country. Last I checked, you can only vote for Joe Mauer.

by EtSuKe on Sep 17, 2009 9:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I don't necessarily think

you should just vote for the guy with the highest WAR and call it a day, although that would be a pretty good starting point. I do have a sneaking suspicion that most people mocking sabermetrics just end up voting for the guy with the highest batting average or most RBIs anyway.

You don't cheer for the Mets. You drink for the Mets.

by Kevin H on Sep 18, 2009 1:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs