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Payroll efficiency formula: Mets need to rebuild for the future NOW!

The Mets are already in a bad situation, but what does their future outlook project? I will show you. But first, allow me to introduce some payroll efficiency statistics, which demonstrates how well the payroll can justify their team's record.

Payroll efficiency formula

Let:

E = Efficiency rating
L = Losses
Pa = League average payroll (constant)
Pt = Team payroll
W = Wins

K = (W² / (W + L) – a measure of a team’s "power"
√K * E (square root of (power x efficiency)) – Number that shows how well a team maximizes on returns, based on power and efficiency.

-———————————

Pa = $88,336,287

41.23 = Average efficiency rating
38.07 = Average power rating
38.96 = Average power-efficiency rating

38.60 = Median efficiency rating
38.90 = Median power rating
39.25 = Median power-efficiency rating

-———————————

The efficiency rating formula is: (W² / (W + L)) * (Pa / Pt), or K * (Pa / Pt)

I hate to admit it, but when it comes to this, the Mets are the cream of the crap! Nobody should object to the workings behind this carefully constructed formula, based on the findings.

EFFICIENCY RATING LEADERBOARD

Rk / .Total Payroll. / ..W – L.. / .Pow. / Eff. Rtg./√K * E/ Team
01 / $036,814,000 / 80 – 70 / 42.67 / 102.38 / 66.09 / Florida Marlins
02 / $042,796,700 / 68 – 82 / 30.83 / 063.63 / 44.29 / San Diego Padres
03 / $068,646,023 / 81 – 67 / 44.33 / 057.05 / 50.29 / Texas Rangers
04 / $075,201,000 / 85 – 65 / 48.17 / 056.58 / 52.20 / Colorado Rockies
05 / $063,313,035 / 77 – 73 / 39.53 / 055.15 / 46.69 / Tampa Bay Rays
06 / $065,299,267 / 76 – 73 / 38.77 / 052.44 / 45.09 / Minnesota Twins
07 / $088,528,411 / 87 – 63 / 50.46 / 050.35 / 50.41 / St. Louis Cardinals
08 / $062,310,000 / 71 – 78 / 33.83 / 047.96 / 40.28 / Oakland Athletics
09 / $100,458,101 / 90 – 60 / 54.00 / 047.48 / 50.64 / Los Angeles Dodgers
10 / $082,161,450 / 80 – 69 / 42.95 / 046.18 / 44.54 / San Francisco Giants
11 / $113,709,000 / 89 – 60 / 53.16 / 041.30 / 46.86 / Los Angeles Angels
12 / $079,857,502 / 74 – 75 / 36.75 / 040.65 / 38.65 / Milwaukee Brewers
13 / $113,004,048 / 87 – 61 / 51.14 / 039.98 / 45.22 / Philadelphia Phillies
14 / $070,968,500 / 69 – 81 / 31.74 / 039.51 / 35.41 / Cincinnati Reds
15 / $048,743,000 / 56 – 91 / 21.33 / 038.66 / 28.72 / Pittsburgh Pirates
16 / $122,696,000 / 89 – 59 / 53.52 / 038.53 / 45.41 / Boston Red Sox
17 / $096,726,167 / 79 – 70 / 41.89 / 038.25 / 40.03 / Atlanta Braves
18 / $098,904,167 / 78 – 72 / 40.56 / 036.23 / 38.33 / Seattle Mariners
19 / $073,571,667 / 65 – 85 / 28.17 / 033.82 / 30.86 / Arizona Diamondbacks
20 / $096,068,500 / 73 – 77 / 35.53 / 032.67 / 34.07 / Chicago White Sox
21 / $115,085,145 / 79 – 70 / 41.89 / 032.15 / 36.70 / Detroit Tigers
22 / $080,993,657 / 66 – 83 / 29.23 / 031.89 / 30.53 / Toronto Blue Jays
23 / $067,101,667 / 60 – 89 / 24.16 / 031.81 / 27.72 / Baltimore Orioles
24 / $070,908,333 / 61 – 88 / 24.97 / 031.11 / 27.87 / Kansas City Royals
25 / $102,996,415 / 70 – 79 / 32.89 / 028.21 / 30.46 / Houston Astros
26 / $081,625,567 / 61 – 88 / 24.97 / 027.03 / 25.98 / Cleveland Indians
27 / $201,449,289 / 95 – 55 / 60.17 / 026.38 / 39.84 / New York Yankees*
28 / $059,328,000 / 51 – 98 / 17.46 / 025.99 / 21.30 / Washington Nationals
29 / $135,050,000 / 76 – 72 / 39.03 / 025.53 / 31.56 / Chicago Cubs
30 / $135,773,988 / 65 – 85 / 28.17 / 018.33 / 22.72 / New York Mets

As of September 20, 2009

*If you’re wondering how the Yankees are the 4th least efficient team, it’s because they basically paid their way to domination (ticket strategy). Efficiency rating is more of a rating of teams getting a bang for their buck – it’s fitting that the Marlins are waaay ahead, and that the top-payed players are getting paid far, far too much money (that’s why the Yankees are down there.) Since the Yankees are an outlier in team payrolls, let’s chalk this one up as a special case. Outliers have tendencies to be very misleading. But to give you an example of how efficient the Marlins really are, if the Yankees went 162 – 0, their rating would still be 75.5 – well short of the Marlins. You would need to reduce your payroll to $139.7 million if you go 162 – 0, to match the Marlins’ efficiency rating. There’s something to be learned from all this…

Courtesy of ‘TheBigStapler’, I posted a power-efficiency returns statistic, that shows how well a team can balance power and efficiency. This statistic was particularly lenient on the Yankees, but does not offer any solace for the Mets. This basically shows how well a team maximizes profit from their strength and efficiency and projects how the future projects for these teams, should the status quo be maintained under the same approach (regardless of the current state of their farm systems) – it is adjusted accordingly to fit a model more consistent with today’s standards of excessively-payed players and puts more emphasis simply on how good (or how powerful) a team is. Payroll still plays an integral part in this, though. Obviously, the Yankees don't have to worry about their payroll, and can burn as much money as they need to, in order to acquire talent. This is a projection of a team's future forecast – things definitely look grim for the Mets. Their best hope (and their only hope) is renovating and developing their farm system and making a series of relatively effective low-budget moves. I heard they are already breaking ground on a minor league training facility in Scotland, where they play shot-put regularly. Great place to acquire pitching talent, I say! Right, lads?

POWER – EFFICIENCY RETURNS LEADERBOARD

Rk / .Total Payroll. / ..W – L.. / .Pow. / Eff. Rtg./√K * E / Team
01 / $036,814,000 / 80 – 70 / 42.67 / 102.38 / 66.09 / Florida Marlins
02 / $075,201,000 / 85 – 65 / 48.17 / 056.58 / 52.20 / Colorado Rockies
03 / $100,458,101 / 90 – 60 / 54.00 / 047.48 / 50.64 / Los Angeles Dodgers
04 / $088,528,411 / 87 – 63 / 50.46 / 050.35 / 50.41 / St. Louis Cardinals
05 / $068,646,023 / 81 – 67 / 44.33 / 057.05 / 50.29 / Texas Rangers
06 / $113,709,000 / 89 – 60 / 53.16 / 041.30 / 46.86 / Los Angeles Angels
07 / $063,313,035 / 77 – 73 / 39.53 / 055.15 / 46.69 / Tampa Bay Rays
08 / $122,696,000 / 89 – 59 / 53.52 / 038.53 / 45.41 / Boston Red Sox
09 / $113,004,048 / 87 – 61 / 51.14 / 039.98 / 45.22 / Philadelphia Phillies
10 / $065,299,267 / 76 – 73 / 38.77 / 052.44 / 45.09 / Minnesota Twins
11 / $082,161,450 / 80 – 69 / 42.95 / 046.18 / 44.54 / San Francisco Giants
12 / $042,796,700 / 68 – 82 / 30.83 / 063.63 / 44.29 / San Diego Padres
13 / $062,310,000 / 71 – 78 / 33.83 / 047.96 / 40.28 / Oakland Athletics
14 / $096,726,167 / 79 – 70 / 41.89 / 038.25 / 40.03 / Atlanta Braves
15 / $201,449,289 / 95 – 55 / 60.17 / 026.38 / 39.84 / New York Yankees*
16 / $079,857,502 / 74 – 75 / 36.75 / 040.65 / 38.65 / Milwaukee Brewers
17 / $098,904,167 / 78 – 72 / 40.56 / 036.23 / 38.33 / Seattle Mariners
18 / $115,085,145 / 79 – 70 / 41.89 / 032.15 / 36.70 / Detroit Tigers
19 / $070,968,500 / 69 – 81 / 31.74 / 039.51 / 35.41 / Cincinnati Reds
20 / $096,068,500 / 73 – 77 / 35.53 / 032.67 / 34.07 / Chicago White Sox
21 / $135,050,000 / 76 – 72 / 39.03 / 025.53 / 31.56 / Chicago Cubs
22 / $073,571,667 / 65 – 85 / 28.17 / 033.82 / 30.86 / Arizona Diamondbacks
23 / $080,993,657 / 66 – 83 / 29.23 / 031.89 / 30.53 / Toronto Blue Jays
24 / $102,996,415 / 70 – 79 / 32.89 / 028.21 / 30.46 / Houston Astros
25 / $048,743,000 / 56 – 91 / 21.33 / 038.66 / 28.72 / Pittsburgh Pirates
26 / $070,908,333 / 61 – 88 / 24.97 / 031.11 / 27.87 / Kansas City Royals
27 / $067,101,667 / 60 – 89 / 24.16 / 031.81 / 27.72 / Baltimore Orioles
28 / $081,625,567 / 61 – 88 / 24.97 / 027.03 / 25.98 / Cleveland Indians
29 / $135,773,988 / 65 – 85 / 28.17 / 018.33 / 22.72 / New York Mets
30 / $059,328,000 / 51 – 98 / 17.46 / 025.99 / 21.30 / Washington Nationals

As of September 20, 2009

It should be noted that teams with the highest efficiency ratings also tend to have the best overall value, by players. Their prospects also tend to recently break out in a big way (i.e. Texas Rangers). Hanley Ramirez is getting paid $5.5 million this year and Derek Jeter $21.6 million – Ramirez is clearly more productive right now (no disrespect to future HOFer Jeter), AND has even better value, obviously! That should seal my case for the formula.

But see, this is a CLEAR indication that the Mets need to invest HEAVILY in their farm system – David Wright and Jose Reyes are the only players from the Mets farm system that have paid considerable enough dividends (Daniel Murphy and Josh Thole might join them soon). The only good Mets pitcher on the roster right now who was brought up from their farm system is Pedro Feliciano! (Mike Pelfrey needs LOTS of work!) Screw putting excuses on injuries – the Mets need to inject their farm system in the a$$! If you look at all the other teams, it is generally evident that more of their good players are farm-raised. The Mets need to follow the example of Rangers’ GM Jon Daniels – drop players who don't offer adequate value going forward, and invest that money in scouting and player development. Oliver Perez ($12 million/year for 3 years), based on this model, is the WORST SIGNING EVER (per dollar) by the Mets, in my opinion (even worse than what Carl Pavano was to the Yankees – Pavano had MUCH more to offer at the time of his signing!) – Perez is the poster boy for "toxic assets". The utter stupidity behind Omar Minaya's idea to sign a pitcher with spotty career statistics and questionable track record for an exorbitant amount of money befuddles me! He is NOT the "next Cliff Lee", and never will be! It doesn't matter who the pitching coach is – he can't be trusted to handle the job! Perez himself, when you think about it, is no more a criminal than banks nowadays.

MR. TOXIC ASSETS

Is he laughing or grieving? This is a classic Mona Lisa paradox.

The Mets can't wait until next year to start making the necessary improvements – the time is NOW. The Mets can free up some necessary payroll from their free agents, who are C Brian Schneider ($4,900,000), 1B Carlos Delgado ($12,000,000), SS Alex Cora ($2,000,000), LF Gary Sheffield (only responsible for $400,000 of $14 million contract), LF Fernando Tatis ($1,700,000), and RHP J.J. Putz ($6,000,000 this season, $9,150,000 club option with a $1,000,000 buyout). That's $27 million in payroll right there. I think it's in their best interest to let go of Brian Schneider – Josh Thole has what it takes to steer this organization with Omir Santos as his backup. Carlos Delgado, despite his production, isn't worth picking up the tab for, as he will be an oft-injured payer who might not do much to justify any salary he might get – the Mets could sign him for less, but Daniel Murphy has a strong hold at the 1st base position, anyway. Alex Cora is a toss-up, but I think the Mets can get a better deal than what he's worth. We all know Sheffield will not be in a Mets uniform next season – his departure from New York will bring memories of Stephon Marbury's unceremonious departure as he left the New York Knicks for the Boston Celtics, under enormous scrutiny. I wouldn't mind having Tatis back next year – he provides that necessary 1B/3B/LF/PH versatility that is worth the price tag, and he is often good in the clutch. I say that J.J. Putz could be hit or miss, but let's assume he does get signed, on the basis of his credentials. With that said, the Mets could free up $16,150,000 in payroll.

They should spend that money bolstering their rotation and filling out the LF position with a no. 1 player to lead that position, or a player who can split a timeshare with Tatis.

I suggest that the Mets target SP Randy Wolf to a deal in the ballpark of $6 – 8 million (currently making $4,956,237). Yes, he is having a good season and had some bad ones in his career, but I say that with the shortage of good economical options out there, he's the best free agent fit and is worth the chance.

As for LF, Jason Bay will probably be off-limits, so the Mets should look to target Marlon Byrd (currently making $3,060,000) for about $5 million and put him in a timeshare with Tatis. Granted, much of his power numbers comes from the advantages of playing half his games in a hitter's ballpark in the Ballpark at Arlington, but he does have respectable pop and can hit for extra-base hits 40 percent of the time he does get hits (more often than Tatis), which is pretty good. Marlon Byrd doesn't strike out any more than Tatis and has a similar OPS+ and SLG %, but the fact that he faced tougher pitching in the American League suggests he is more than a viable counterpart to Tatis, and could actually steal at-bats and a portion of the timeshare since he seems more capable of playing a full season, as he has amassed many more at-bats over the last two seasons and will obtain a better grip over National League pitching. Yes, they both hit better against righties than lefties, but the Mets stand to benefit from such a move in the long-term.

Assuming my scenario pays out, the Mets will still have about $4 million left in free payroll. Whenever and wherever the need necessitates, that can be used on minor acquisitions and/or on team-building projects, such as scouting and player development. I would like to add that the Mets can't afford to make any really big trades this season – their farm system is depleted because of that and needs to be maintained. Other than that, they just don't have much to offer from their roster. The trades (whatever they may be) will most likely be all relatively small-scale. I don't expect Minaya to pull off a blockbuster deal for the 4th year in a row. The price is too high.

Based on what the figures suggest, the Mets will be in for a long year ahead in 2010 (even negating the injuries), but they need to start somewhere. Yes, the injuries cost them some games, but it can't account for the 22 or so game difference between them and the Phillies entirely! They need to get smart, bolster scouting and player development to rebuild their farm system, make a series of small but efficient offseason moves, and sign high-value (not high price) free agents. A good value player can justify his salary, if not make a case for a raise. The Mets need to act. The Mets need to act NOW.

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A question from a Braves fan

what do you guys think of Jeff Francoeur? I’ve never really heard much from Mets fans since the trade went down.

Frank Wren for GM of the Year.
"Wait, bait and bash." - Jason Heyward's personal philosophy.

by mvhsbball on Sep 22, 2009 2:39 AM EDT via mobile reply actions   0 recs

Personally, I would love to have him back.

He does everything he should – hits well, plays defense effectively, and has a great rapport within the clubhouse. He carries himself well and can handle the New York media. He is a definite asset to the team. The fans have taken to him quite well.

He is also the team leader with 12 HRs. Francoeur for president!

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 22, 2009 2:45 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He's terrible.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Sep 22, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ummm r u serious?

"The one thing you don't want to do is hit a home run. That's a rally-killer." -Jeff Francoeur

by RangersandMets on Sep 22, 2009 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I just think we should give him another shot

He is young (25), has potential at this point, and is also a great team chemistry kind of player, from what I have seen. Even if he does turn out to become a bench player, that might give him the opportunity to learn his pace in stride and gradually adjust his approach at the plate, since he will appreciate each at-bat more – that would allow him to take a more careful approach. We must get him to take at least 3 times as many walks, for that matter – this situational layout I explain here can break him down and build him back up into a better player, though not necessarily the kind we would expect.

The best example of this is Marlins 1B/3B Jorge Cantu – Jorge Cantu definitely fit this mold – he started his career off with a bang in 2004 – 2005 before faltering in AVG in 2006 and losing his everyday job in 2007. He came back with a resurgence of power in 2008 and it continued to this year. The difference between the old Cantu (2005) and the New Cantu (2008-09) was that he doubled his BB rate. Look over here! – he had a .311 OBP in 2005 and a .327 OBP in 2008, which improved to .338 in 2009. And guess what? HIS baBIP STAYED JUST ABOUT THE SAME! (CLOSE TO .300!) This idea of mine is based on a very realistic proposition that follows along the same lines – Francoeur could make this transition too, once he learns the tricks of the trade.

“Man, when the hell is this sj dude going to run outta answers?!”

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 22, 2009 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have no problem with Frenchy staying in the organization.

But ANYTHING over bench player- BENCH PLAYER, not platoon player- would be incredibly, incredibly stupid.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Sep 22, 2009 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bench Player??

Give me a break. The kid is 25 years old.

Gary Thorne=Simply the Best!

by The American Mr.Hockey on Sep 24, 2009 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

so?

Since he’s young, it overcomes the fact that he’s a below replacement level hitter?

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Sep 24, 2009 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Chemistry is bullshit

and his OBP this year is .307, which is really really bad. His BABIP is .348, .041 points higher than his career norm. And Jorge Cantu sucks, so why is he a good example of how you think Francoeur can turn it around?

Your not gonna run out of answers, just correct ones.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 23, 2009 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cantu has a .289 baBIP and .311 OBP in 2005; .296 baBIP and .338 OBP in 2009

That is actually a substantial improvement from 2005, considering the OBP. He is taking a lot more walks. He has good enough numbers that the team would be considerably affected, were he to miss any playing time.

Hell, if Francoeur can be like the next Cantu, I’d surely take that deal if it were up to me!

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 23, 2009 1:57 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cantu had a nice year last year

with 2.9 WAR, this year he’s at 1 WAR. He’s not good. And also, Cantu has shown some improvement in his walk rate, while Francoeur’s is at the lowest since 2006.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 23, 2009 2:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Easing him in

Let’s assume Francoeur returns to his normal self next season. He’ll be a bench/platoon player afterwards, and will be more motivated to take more walks and change his approach, before possibly being a full-timer again. It’s the best idea, in my opinion.

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 23, 2009 2:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why would he be more motivated to take walks?

They’re not even on the scoreboard!

ain't had enough...

by BlackOps on Sep 23, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's all part of the plan

The team’s management will look at his OBP – if it’s at .300 AND he’s not hitting well, it will work against him. If he becomes a bench player and gets step-by-step coaching, it could help his progress.

Players who don’t take walks usually have lower OBP’s, and Francoeur not hitting well puts him in jeopardy of losing his job, unless he makes necessary adjustments. Getting on base (more often) is the no. 1 priority. You don’t get on base, you don’t help the team at all. Everything else will fall into place eventually with continued progress (if any).

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 23, 2009 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's great in theory.

But the man has repeatedly stated that he doesn’t care about making those adjustments.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Sep 23, 2009 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The team will

And it would be wrong of him to go up against the team. That could be a losing effort on his part.

Behold the wrath of Evil Mr. Met!

by sj10689 on Sep 23, 2009 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

About Cantu

His WAR might be sub-par this year, but I think it’s slated to rise, come 2010. His lack of HRs didn’t help, but his OBP was at its highest ever for a full season, though.

An added note: This site has a tremendous debate team and board of statisticians. I joined about a week ago, and I am flat-out impressed. I’m looking forward to whatever undertakings I decide to embark on, from here on out.

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 23, 2009 2:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My problem is

the cash. he simply is NOT a $4 million player. If he were to re-sign for $1 million I’d have him as a 4th OF maybe.

by METSMETSMETS on Sep 24, 2009 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's painful

His defense is wildly overrated, he’s average, can’t take a pitch to save if life. I mean, he hasn’t been bad for the Mets but he’s been lucky. His LD% is up well above his career norms therefore his BABIP is too. The second he regresses to normalcy, he is going to be bad, really really really bad. His value is nothing if he can’t bat at least .290 since he walks so little and I don’t think he’s a .290 hitter at all. What’s scary is that so many perceive him to be a solution in right. I really hope they non tender him after the season, but I just have a feeling he’s here for the long haul.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 22, 2009 2:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He projects to be a .270 medium-level (15-20 HR) power hitter

But considering where the Mets are going, I think they ought to keep him for next season. He’s certainly better than the average player on that staff right now. Even without the breakout due to a high baBIP, he stands to be an asset to the team. Let’s not forget, he hasn’t hit his prime yet (at 27). There’s still room for improvement.

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 22, 2009 3:06 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

he hasn’t hit his prime yet (at 27).

I meant to say that players typically hit their prime at 27. He is currently 25.

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 22, 2009 3:10 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If he's a .270 hitter

his OBP tops out at about .310, more likely .300 and a .300 OBP starting in right field is worthless. Francoeur is a terrible baseball player and he isn’t an asset without his inflated average, he’s most definitely a detriment. Say what you want about his power and SLG potential, but it doesn’t matter since OBP is twice as important as SLG. And the fact that he hasn’t been getting any better makes the fact that he’s yet to enter his prime almost irrelevant. I’d much rather hand the starting job to Fernando next year than have him on the team. This is a guy who has been on a tear, in the eyes on the mainstream media, and he has a .347 wOBA, that would be 14th in the majors if he did it all year and no way in hell does he match that next year. Unless his arm returns to being worth 16.5 runs, you’re looking at a replacement level player with an upside of 1 WAR.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 22, 2009 4:28 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

people have figuered out

that OBP is 1.8 worth Slugging (See Gross Production Average)

"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"

by firejerrynow on Sep 22, 2009 6:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks,

good to know. Still, rounding to two times makes my argument better.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 22, 2009 7:14 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

am I just way off?

I thought one of the big reasons that people valued OBP originally was that it was an under appreciated statistic.

as in… when the A’s made that run and people started talkin stats OBP was the poster boy, because Beane had found something of value that was undervalued by the rest of baseball.

by gbaked on Sep 22, 2009 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes and no

OBP was being undervalued by the market, which made it a compelling target for Beane because he didn’t have the financial resources to compete with other teams for the even-valued or over-valued commodities like homeruns and RsBI.

The Mets don’t necessarily have to target undervalued commodities because they can afford to pay market value (or above); OBP is valuable because it has a high correlation to scoring runs.

Paying market value or overpaying marginally for something whose actual value approaches the market value isn’t a bad business model for the Mets. Overpaying for things that are way overvalued (saves, RsBI, grission, veteran presence) is a bad business model for anyone.

That the market seems to have caught on about OBP doesn’t make it any less important to run scoring, it just makes it less of a bargain.

by Eric Simon on Sep 22, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Absolutely
Overpaying for things that are way overvalued (saves, RsBI, grission, veteran presence) is a bad business model for anyone.

That’s the kind of stuff the Mets absolutely must avoid this offseason! It will kill them.

Here are some great compliments to OBP: XBH %, SB, TB, and perhaps most understated in trade talks, lineup protection (which would increase all of these). Lineup protection gets Mauer hits before Morneau, Teixeira hits before A-Rod, and Pujols/Holliday (no. 3) hits for the other (no. 4), depending on no.3/4 order between them.

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 22, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's still underrated.

OPS is not an accurate measurement of offensive worth.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Sep 22, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The only complaint the fans have about him is that he strikes out too much

I looked everywhere, and this one came up quite often. But as he matures and naturally polishes his plate discipline, he’ll get the hang of it.

But that’s a gritty player for you – hack and slash. When he hits it and makes contact though, good things usually happen.

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 22, 2009 3:02 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

WHy would he all of a sudden become disciplined

when he’s rejected it for the last four season?

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 22, 2009 4:29 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

OBP / Plate discipline

The extreme low walk rate brings his OBP to .310 – that is a concern. That can be improved with an entirely different approach at the plate. I think a different pitching coach from the one he had with the Braces (Howard Johnson) could help with that. Yeah, yeah I know – the Mets offense per plate appearance has declined even from their best players while HoJo was at the helm. But that will be addressed by some means.

Instead of thinking about swinging at good pitches, he should think more often about not swinging at the bad ones! Wouldn’t you agree?

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 22, 2009 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think a different pitching coach from the one he had with the Braces (Howard Johnson) could help with that.

Ha ha, the Atlanta Braces! Braves, of course. Seems like their lack of offense would make that name fitting, though.

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 22, 2009 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

HoJo is our hitting coach

and if it were that simple, no player would have issues like that. He doesn’t walk, a new approach isn’t going to make him more selective, what will end up happening, if they tell him he has to walk or they’ll bench him, is that he’ll start taking pitches for the sake of taking pitches. If his pitch recognition could have been fixed so easily, it would have. He sucks at baseball, he sucks hard at baseball, this is the best he’s gonna be and that’s not a good ballplayer.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 22, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Typo

I didn’t mean to say HoJo was the Braves hitting coach (that would be Terry Pendleton, BTW), but instead to refer to a different one than the one from the Braves. Putting HoJo in parenthesis didn’t help me to get that point across clearly. I gotta be more careful…

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 22, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The fact that he's gritty

really doesn’t change it for me. He’s not that good at baseball. There are better people for the league minimum (see Sullivan, Cory and Chavez, Endy)

"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"

by firejerrynow on Sep 22, 2009 6:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Endy>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Francoeur/Sullivan

He can at least do one thing very very well. Plus he made that catch.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 22, 2009 7:13 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

over a full season

cory sullivan would not be better than francoeur. nor would endy or fernando. everyone loves to make these extreme sugestions but if the mets actually did any of this stuff it would be asinine.

by robcast23 on Sep 22, 2009 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Perhaps

but those guys would probably be signed to cheap, short-term deals. Frenchy’s reputation for grittiness and enthusiasm or whatever, as well as his alleged potential (I guess?), may well garner him a multi-year deal from this team. That’s just wasteful spending for a player of his, erm, caliber.

"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Sep 22, 2009 10:15 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

I dont think anyone

even those of us who JF has grown on, would approve of a multi year deal.

a 1 year deal is the most anyone can rationally want.

by gbaked on Sep 22, 2009 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Endy has been above replacement on regular basis

That’s something Francoeur can’t say

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 22, 2009 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Obviously Endy is a bench player but

Endy: 2456 PA, 4952.0 Innings in the field, career 6.6 WAR
Francoeur: 2899 PA, 6034.2 Innings in the field, career 5.8 WAR

I’d take Endy any day. At least with him you know what you’re getting.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 23, 2009 1:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That actually raises an intersting point

If the Mets are, say, a true talent level team of 85 wins next year, it’d be smart to take the player with more upside because that would push you closer to the playoffs, while the downside would have a negligable effect.

If they are 95 win true talent level team, it’d be smarter to take Endy, because the downside of Francouer would be much more detrimental to the teams playoff odds than the upside would be helpful.

by vivaelpujols on Sep 23, 2009 1:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would take back Endy, if it were up to me

I was tremendously disappointed when the Mets traded him. He was an integral part of the team, and his defense was second to none (better than Beltran’s, for sure!)

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 23, 2009 1:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But I don't think Francoeur has upside

I think he sucks ass.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 23, 2009 2:14 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Easing him in

Let’s assume Francoeur returns to his normal self next season. He’ll be a bench/platoon player afterwards, and will be more motivated to take more walks and change his approach, before possibly being a full-timer again. It’s the best idea, in my opinion.

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 23, 2009 2:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He's actually the definition of a player who is very volatile

As Sam pointed out the other day. He’s been worth 3 WAR in his career twice, and he’s also been sub replacement level twice. He is a guy, who you really have no idea what you’re going to get from him.

That’s why I say he’d be better for the Met’s than a more consistent player like Chavez, next year because they will likely be in that 85-90 win range, and a breakout is more valuable than a flop is detrimental.

by vivaelpujols on Sep 23, 2009 2:57 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's a valid point

As a player on the rise from the bench (presumably), he’s worth taking a chance on.

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 23, 2009 2:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't really follow

why would a flopping Francoeur not be as detrimental as a breakout Francoeur would be helpful?

If they’re and 85-90 win team and Frenchie blossoms and pushes them over the top then great. If they’re an 85-90 win team and Frenchie sucks ass and knocks them out of the hunt by a few games then how is that not detrimental in equal proportion to his possible upside.

And before you answer, remember that a flopping terrible 2008-ish Francoeur would be given AMPLE playing time because of the imbeciles who run this team. The Mets almost never cut bait.

by dtro on Sep 23, 2009 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Why would a flopping Francoeur not be as detrimental as a breakout Francoeur would be helpful?

If Francoeur does flop, the team will simply relegate him to the bench and he won’t do much more damage from there. But if he were to break out, he could help the team much more than he could damage it in that last scenario I just described.

The only way Francoeur could be deadly to the team’s success (throughout an entire season) is if he was already producing big numbers (like the 29 HRs he had that one season), then falls off the radar entirely. The bigger they are, the harder they fall. Despite having the most HRs of any player on that team this season, Francoeur isn’t nearly as big an impact player as, say, a Johan Santana, David Wright, Carlos Beltran or Jose Reyes.

In other words, in order to lose big, you got to be big, to begin with. Looking outside the box, Francoeur has much greater upside POTENTIAL than downside potential, based on what he is already doing.

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 23, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

A team that wins 85 games only has a 5-10% shot at making the playoffs in a given year

However, a team that wins 88 games has closer to a 40% shot at the playoffs. On the other hand, a team that wins 82 games, only has a 1% shot of making the playoffs.

So the reward is more than the risk.

by vivaelpujols on Sep 23, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Every game counts

Those few games could make you or break you. Those figures look right to me. For that matter, I think a team has a 99% chance of making the playoffs once securing 97 wins in a season (that’s my estimate), while having a 1% chance with 80 wins. 17 games is considerable, and I think the Mets’ injuries cost them 15 games. That’s something to ponder over.

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 23, 2009 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

?

I was just making some valid points – the Mets losing as many games due to injury as there are a differential of games won between a sure-fire playoff team and a virtually no-chance team on the fringe of making it to the playoffs, just goes to show how badly the team has been damaged by injuries.

If these kinds of injuries happened to the Yankees the same way they happened to the Mets this season, they would be out of it. In conclusion, my point here is that the injury problem is more devastating than it appears.

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 23, 2009 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

hmm

I would be willing to bet money on Endy > Francoeur. It wouldn’t be a smart move to rely on him after knee surgery, but if Endy recovers decently from it, I’d rather have him in the lineup and field.

ain't had enough...

by BlackOps on Sep 22, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, Cory Sullivan IS an upgrade from Francoeur

Francoeur is hitting over his head with a lucky .340 baBIP (.338 OBP), while Sullivan has a .283 baBIP (.343 OBP), slightly unlucky. A baBIP of .300 is the level-off point in luck – the meniscus between lucky and unlucky, if you will.

Francoeur projects as a hitter with a .310 OBP. Sullivan, more like .350 OBP. Sullivan does have less power, but the overwhelming difference in OBP makes a substantial difference that overrides the lack of power in the comparison. Francoeur does have a higher OPS for the time being, but if both of these batters had a .300 baBIP, Sullivan would own him in that category.

Important note: Extreme flyball hitters have lower mean baBIP, while extreme groundball hitters have a higher mean baBIP. Believe it or not, Albert Pujols is considered a groundball hitter. And with Herculean power and bat speed, look what he can do! This is often a deciding factor in baBIP fluctuations.

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 22, 2009 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i would have to think

that a stronger physical* player would have to have a higher BaBIP. Simply because he can hit the ball harder and those weak line drives that are caught by the SS are instead turned into a single, etc…

*I know this can be misleading, that bat speed is prob a better judge and a “stronger” guy could very well hit the ball softer then a “weaker” player… but you know what ima sayin’

by gbaked on Sep 22, 2009 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Speed, too!

A faster player would also have a higher baBIP, as he’s less likely to be thrown out at 1st on an infield grounder hit softly (regardless of power). More speed, more line drives and more power (sometimes) equals a higher baBIP. If one can put that trifecta together, you got the baBIP holy trinity, so to speak!

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 22, 2009 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sullivan's not really better.

He’s like Francouer with all of his drawbacks, but no chance of getting any better.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Sep 22, 2009 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is funny

Which fans have you been talking to if their only complaint is his strikeouts?

by Eric Simon on Sep 22, 2009 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Metsblog readers

Not bashing em, not in this comment anyway, just sayin if you ever read the comments there.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 22, 2009 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually true - I googled Jeff Francoeur for the reception he gets from fans, it and got a Metsblog article with those comments

It’s not the strikeouts I have a problem with. (16 percent strikeout rate is not problematic.) It’s the extreme low walk rate that brings his OBP to .310 – that is a concern. That can be improved with an entirely different approach at the plate.

Instead of thinking about swinging at good pitches, he should think more often about not swinging at the bad ones! Wouldn’t you agree?

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 22, 2009 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

.310 OBP this season; .338 with the Mets. See my comment "Actually, Cory Sullivan IS an upgrade from Francoeur" above

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 22, 2009 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not even close

Not that Francoeur is good or anything, but he’s certainly better than Sullivan. Sullivan has no business being on a big league roster. He’s about as big a waste of a roster spot as you will find in MLB.

He’s a bad defender, hits for a mediocre average, and has no power at all. He’s 30 years old, and in 1187 career PA, has produced a total of a third of a win above replacement. You are looking at a very small sample of 143 PA in the majors this year, but he spent most of the season in AAA putting up a .719 OPS. His previous 5 seasons stats, both majors and minors, were all in very good hitting environments. Park adjust those, and you’ll see he’s not really any good at anything. There’s really nothing in his minor league record to suggest he should have even gotten the opportunity to play in the big leagues in the first place.

by acerimusdux on Sep 23, 2009 2:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wonder, though...

… with a .283 baBIP (slightly unlucky), it seems logical that he should be producing at a slightly higher level. Does WAR take baBIP into consideration, by any chance? I’m guessing probably not.

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 23, 2009 2:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe

No the WAR doesn’t take BABIP into account. But, I guess I’m skeptical about whether the improved walk rate is for real either. Add 4 singles and take away 4 walks and you would have a BABIP of .327 and a walk rate of 9.2% of PA.

I think that’s just small sample variation, rather than a hidden breakout where he’s been unlucky on balls in play.

by acerimusdux on Sep 23, 2009 3:54 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Larger sample size

In conclusion, Cory Sullivan would have to play more games on the MLB level, before we could draw any solid conclusions about him. It’s safe to analyze a player producing at a certain level after about 350 PAs (maybe less), making adjustments to his numbers based on baBIP, to figure out his actual skill.

He has only 144 PAs this season, which is not nearly enough to draw solid conclusions on him, as far as long-term projections are concerned.

An average everyday player amasses approximately 650 PAs (adjusted for the projected 154/162 games that player would play). Sullivan is not an everyday player, but I thought this statistic could help, in terms of relative comparisons.

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 23, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think it's safe to draw conclusions

You can’t draw conclusions from 144 PA this year, but the guy is 30 years old with over 1100 career PA, plus has played most of the last 3 years in the minors.

It’s hard to be 100% sure of anything in baseball, but overall, I think that’s more than enough to conclude that the guy has peaked as a AAA player, and he doesn’t belong on a big league roster at this point. I think better guys are available every month on waivers.

by acerimusdux on Sep 23, 2009 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes

Sullivan is no longer a prospect and he is “old”, technically speaking. Little upside at this point of his career.

When I meant that Cory Sullivan was an upgrade from Francoeur earlier, I was only talking about right now. But in the next 2-3 years, I like Francoeur a lot better.

Behold the wrath of Evil Mr. Met!

by sj10689 on Sep 23, 2009 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sure

A 25 year old who is already better than +5 WAR for his career? Yeah of course. Like I said, he’s a good RH platoon bat.

by acerimusdux on Sep 23, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

he was TERRIBLE last year.

If there’s someone better, you can’t honestly keep someone below replacement on the roster.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Sep 23, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Easing him in

Francoeur will disappoint. Francoeur most likely will be relegated back to the bench. So what do we do from there?

See what he does in limited at-bats as he tries to take more walks and adjust his mechanics, then see if he is capable of playing everyday. At 25, he DOES have potential and it is possible for him to become a big player on the staff 2-3 years from now.

If Francoeur’s replacement has a good enough WAR, that would probably relegate him to the bench. That’s where “Operation: Fix Frenchy” ultimately begins, as I have described in concise detail above.

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 23, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

AAA is his best bet, to be honest.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Sep 23, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That is, if Francoeur needs lots of practice and could only improve with more ABs.

Here’s a thought – the Mets put Francoeur on the 15-day or 30-day DL with a bogus injury (like a strained oblique or something), and they use that to get Francoeur more ABs in AAA, without the embarrassment of being sent down because of sucking. Then, if he improves, the Mets could blame those problems of his on the “injury”.

Trust me, this is a widely utilized practice across the majors. The Yankees did it with Chien-Ming Wang, albeit unsuccessfully.

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 23, 2009 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why should we spare him embarassment?

He’s being paid millions of dollars, and if he can’t handle being humbled, well too bad.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Sep 23, 2009 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The NY Media can be brutal

The Mets wouldn’t want that to impede his psyche if they’re trying to improve his gameplay. I remember when A-Rod was at a breaking point (not that I care much about him, anyway) – he went through an extended slump.

Even if Francoeur isn’t nearly as high a profile player as A-Rod, poor performance will send the media hound dogs out to get him, since the Mets just (presumably) signed him to a contract by that time. It would help Francoeur to take a medium-level salary on the contract

2009 salary: $3,375,000

I suggest:

  • 4 million for 2 years, plus a $5.25 million vesting club option for a 3rd year

The Mets definitely have to let go of J.J. Putz, for that matter ($9 million option isn’t worth it). I reached that conclusion after some thought.

Behold the wrath of Evil Mr. Met!

by sj10689 on Sep 23, 2009 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Uhg

I popped over there the other day and had to stop reading immediately when I read people supporting a 3 year extension for Francoeur, and saying he is a very good defender.

If there is one thing I can’t stand about the Mets right now is that they actually think Francoeur is a good defender because of his arm. Its pretty tough to utilize a big arm when you can’t cover any space what so ever.

by Balagast on Sep 22, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's too bad he can't be a catcher

having mediocre range but a plus arm

by TheBigStapler on Sep 22, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

3 years (guaranteed) is excessive

If it is 3 years, the third one should be a club option with incentives. If he doesn’t break out by then, when he’s 27, he’s not worth all the trouble.

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 22, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Put on your hard hat.

Jeff Francouer is not “gritty”. Even if he is, why does it matter? What, he’s gritty because he misses the ball too much and has absolutely no plate discipline? Jesus Christ, what the hell?

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Sep 22, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good platoon guy

It’s amazing how extreme the opinions are on Francoeur. The truth is he really shouldn’t be an everyday starter, but he’s a good guy to have around as a RH platoon bat with power. The problem is he is so easily over rated by people who don’t understand baseball, including Met management, that he’s liable to become a burden. As long as you don’t pay him or play him like an everyday regular though, he’s a useful guy to have around. Fits well in the bottom of a lineup, plays OK in RF due to the arm, fits in well enough in the clubhouse. He’ll probably be about a +1 to 1.5 WAR per year player going forward.

He reminds me a bit of Juan Encarnacion, who had a decent career as a fringy starter. Another fringy guy who someone brought up recently as a comp (more for personality) is Ray Knight. Knight is much loved by Mets fans because he played a key role in 1986, when he basically had a career year. But the truth is he never really was a good player. He ended with a career .321 OBP and .711 OPS. On the right club though, a guy like that can be a good complimentary guy.

Frenchy at only 25, still certainly has the upside to be that much. The only problem there is if they keep putting the expectation on him to be much more than he really is. If they want to buy out his arbitration years for $8M for 2 years ($4M each), he’ll do all right starting 100 games a year for them, while sitting against some better RHP.

by acerimusdux on Sep 23, 2009 2:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Couldn't agree more

As per my suggestions

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 23, 2009 2:56 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This makes no sense to me

You want the Mets to shed payroll so they can spend in the draft, but you want them to invest 13 million in Randy Wolf and Marlon Byrd??

King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president

by Sam Page on Sep 22, 2009 2:00 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Not a bad point

But if they have extra money on the side that’s not being used in the payroll, they might be able to adjust accordingly. I’m not a big fan of merely pouring tons of money into the team’s payroll (like the Royals once did under Ewing Kauffman), but the Mets do need to make some offseason splashes, just to maintain stability within a paying fanbase. The fans do want to see some fresh faces and they want them to produce – that will keep attendance higher than otherwise. Besides, it’ll keep the team as a whole more stable, and from there, the Mets can build upon it with home-grown talent.

But the Mets would be hard-pressed to be able to utilize just merely $16 million just to make a major impact at ALL the positions in need. If that’s the case, they will have no choice but to let go of J.J. Putz, which would be a real downer, but perhaps in an emergency situation, a necessary move.

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 22, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I meant farm-raised talent; not necessarily home-grown talent.

But the Texas Rangers system of adopting home-grown talent (raised in Texas) has worked out quite well over the short period of time since that was adopted and implemented.

Enter first 2009 Mets draft pick Steven Matz (no. 72 overall), who IS home-grown, as he is a Long Island native from Stony Brook, NY.

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 22, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree that the Mets need to invest in some major-league talent

I guess I just disagree with the specific players…or maybe I just don’t like Randy Wolf. I’m on board with Marlon Byrd.

King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president

by Sam Page on Sep 22, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I could understand

Randy Wolf might ask for more than he’s worth coming off a great year, since his player history may suggest that this season is smoke and mirrors. Unlike Wolf, Byrd has proven to be capable of putting up what he brings to the table. If we leave Wolf out of the Mets plans, we will have to hope that a prospect or two can really shine next season, just to keep the Mets from getting too close to 5th in the standings, like this season. They don’t have to make it to the playoffs, but they must finish next year with a (much) better team – that is a moot point.

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 22, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Mets already have an above average farm.

I understand what you’re trying to say, but when you back it up with phrases like “Jeff Francouer is gritty”, “the Mets need to rebuild for the future NOW!!!”, “Mike Pelfrey needs A LOT of work [when saying he is not a good pitcher]”, etc….all of which are untrue and/or stupid.
The Mets need an overhaul…not a rebuild. Rebuilding would be if they had a few good players who were old and had tough contracts for the team. David Wright, Jose Reyes, and (to a lesser degree) Carlos Beltran are perfectly acceptable on ANY team. And we don’t need to rebuild; we just need to be smart with promotions, free agent signings, and trades. We do that, we contend. That simple.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Sep 22, 2009 4:31 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The Mets already have an above average farm.

Not true. Read the article from the link below.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/farm-system-value-rankings-part-3/

It’s updated for April, but I couldn’t find any reliable rankings of the farm systems from more recent articles. The 2009 draft wouldn’t be inclusive to these rankings anyway, as the strength of farm systems depends solely on how the players on the farm are producing – not what their potentials are.

Also, a farm system can’t move from the ranking they are in now to considerably above average – that would require an injection of talent from the draft, which can only be accurately measured once the draftees play in the fall leagues or winter ball.

I understand what you’re trying to say, but when you back it up with phrases like "Jeff Francouer is gritty", "the Mets need to rebuild for the future NOW!!!", "Mike Pelfrey needs A LOT of work [when saying he is not a good pitcher]", etc….all of which are untrue and/or stupid.

I didn’t make the comment about him being “gritty” as that being beneficial, and I MOST certainly did not use that statement as reasoning to keep him on the roster – that’s not the reason I think they should keep him (I explain that in a post where I mention Jorge Cantu). If anything, my suggestion of him being “gritty” at the plate is a drawback! (Read between the lines – a hack and slash batter is not the kind I appear to favor in a lineup.) And how could you possibly deny that the Mets need to rebuild for the future? Are you insane!? The lack of that approach is the reason why the Mets get very little from their farm system and are in this situation to begin with! Read the article (again). And you can’t deny that Mike Pelfrey needs lots of work, either! That is an utterly ridiculous assertion! A pitcher with a 5.10 ERA this year, and only one halfway decent season out of four needs a tremendous amount of work!

To call these statements “untrue and/or stupid” is not only a blatant show of ignorance, but it makes it appear that you know next to nothing about the team. (I don’t assume that.)

The Mets need an overhaul…not a rebuild. Rebuilding would be if they had a few good players who were old and had tough contracts for the team. David Wright, Jose Reyes, and (to a lesser degree) Carlos Beltran are perfectly acceptable on ANY team. And we don’t need to rebuild; we just need to be smart with promotions, free agent signings, and trades. We do that, we contend. That simple.

I don’t think you read the article. I said “rebuild for the future”, which in this case meant to rebuild the farm system. I get into detail and explain everything in the article content. This process is already underway, but the Mets need to not only be more aggressive about it – they also need to get results from it as well. Daniel Murphy and Josh Thole are making a case for this, but it’s not strong enough yet (even if Murphy is 2nd on the team in HRs with 11). He needs to advance into 20 HR territory, get his OBP higher than .314 (to .350, preferably), and produce consistently year after year before we can consider him a “successful project”. The same idea goes for Thole, but he is already ahead of the rookie learning curve at this stage. He will struggle at some point, but if he overcomes that with better peripherals and can put up really good stats, we’ll finally have a solid catcher on the staff – that would actually be huge, as catcher is an offensively weak position (with Joe Mauer, MLB’s AVG leader, being an obvious exception to this concept, in terms of top position players in comparison to top players overall.)

The statement you made in your first paragraph is antithetic in nature – the opposite of what you said is true in that first paragraph, and every Mets fan knows that. I agree with the rest of what you said, although you misinterpreted what I meant by “rebuild”. I didn’t say the Mets had to rebuild their team – that’s totally different. I said “rebuild for the future”, which means something altogether different, in this case. When I said the Mets have to rebuild for the future (without at first being specific, no less), this leaves the open-ended question “The Mets have to rebuild for the future? Rebuild what for the future, exactly?” (Rebuild Citi Field? Rebuild their spring training facilities? Rebuild their concession stands?) Because it’s not their team that needs rebuilding – their team needs reinforcements. Rebuilding a team for the future means fortifying their farm system with talent, in this case – planting the seeds today for “produce” tomorrow.

I didn’t mean to offend you in my commentary about your first statement, but that just baffled me – there was nothing about it that could be understood. Hopefully, I explained myself clearly – perhaps I wasn’t clear enough in the interpretation. But on the other hand, if you would’ve read the article, you wouldn’t be asking these kinds of questions and making these statements. Just saying – I think you are knowledgeable about the situation, but it appears that you just read the headline, then immediately posted a comment on here based solely on the headline instead of reading the article content.

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 22, 2009 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No actually, I am perfectly aware of the article.

Maybe I didn’t explain MYSELF clearly. I don’t know exactly if you’ve been following the Mets system or its prospects. If not, fine. But the Mets farm has improved considerably since April.
Ike Davis and Jenrry Mejia are now legitimate top 50 prospects, at least, along with Fernando Martinez. That’s three Mets prospects, in the top 50 of all of baseball. Add Jon Niese, Reese Havens, Wilmer Flores, and Brad Holt, and it’s hard to argue that the Mets don’t have at least 6 of the top 100 prospects. Just because they didn’t rank it like that back in April doesn’t mean the farm isn’t good. Almost every prospect evaluator at this point that isn’t an abject Mets hater would say the Mets farm is AT LEAST about 15, if not more around 10-13, which would be the more likely response. That is the definition of average to above average, and considering the fact that there are a handful of high ceiling developmental guys in the lower levels, it could just as well improve even more drastically by next year. Back in April, Ike Davis and Jenrry Mejia and Brad Holt and Josh Thole were not NEARLY as highly regarded as they are now; THAT’S why the farm is better, not the injection of talent from the draft.
As for the “grit” comment, I’ll concede that- you later made a very good point about Cantu, and I agree that I would keep Francouer on the team, but of course not giving him anything more than a bench role until he earns it.
But Pelfrey…you just cited his ERA? That’s going to lead to lots of inaccuracies. Considering he pitched a total of 90 innings in his first two seasons, when he was clearly not ready, it’s not fair to use that against him. So let’s include 2008 and 2009. In 2008, Mike Pelfrey was a 3.0 WAR pitcher. That is a #2-#3 starter performance, verified by his 3.96 FIP and his .302 BABIP. However, this year, Pelf has been worth 1.7 WAR…not great, of course, but good enough for a #3-#4 starter. However, this season seems unfortunate for him statistically, as he has been handed bad luck (.318 BABIP), and his FIP has only dropped moderately as opposed to his drastically dropped ERA. This is due to the fact that the Mets are the worst defensive team in baseball this year. A groundball pitcher like Pelfrey, putting the ball in play to Ramon Martinez, Anderson Hernandez, Luis Castillo et. al? That’s DEFINITELY leading to accurate results of his performance.
As for rebuiliding…yes, I got a better sense of what you were trying to say this time. However, the think you don’t seem to grasp is that the farm is already being planted, and some of those prospects are coming to light now. It’s all well and good to say that the farm should have produced more than it has so far (which even then seems sort of incorrect…how many other team’s farms produced two of the best 20 players in baseball in the past 5 years?), but to say it NOW when some prospects ARE finally coming to light just seems sort of redundant and/or useless. Continuing the process is, of course, key, and I wasn’t encouraged by this years draft either. However, Familia, Mejia, Martinez, Flores, Marte, Tejada….all of them came from Int. signings. So there’s something to hope for.
I guess I mostly have a problem with you saying that “the process is underway, but they have to get results”. If the process is underway, and a few results are finally cropping up, it’s not fair to criticize the FO’s inefficiency. Trust me, I’m aware of the problems…but if a specific problem (in this case, the minor league system) is being fixed, don’t yell at your repairman.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Sep 23, 2009 1:04 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe I didn’t explain MYSELF clearly. I don’t know exactly if you’ve been following the Mets system or its prospects. If not, fine. But the Mets farm has improved considerably since April.
Ike Davis and Jenrry Mejia are now legitimate top 50 prospects, at least, along with Fernando Martinez. That’s three Mets prospects, in the top 50 of all of baseball. Add Jon Niese, Reese Havens, Wilmer Flores, and Brad Holt, and it’s hard to argue that the Mets don’t have at least 6 of the top 100 prospects. Just because they didn’t rank it like that back in April doesn’t mean the farm isn’t good. Almost every prospect evaluator at this point that isn’t an abject Mets hater would say the Mets farm is AT LEAST about 15, if not more around 10-13, which would be the more likely response. That is the definition of average to above average, and considering the fact that there are a handful of high ceiling developmental guys in the lower levels, it could just as well improve even more drastically by next year. Back in April, Ike Davis and Jenrry Mejia and Brad Holt and Josh Thole were not NEARLY as highly regarded as they are now; THAT’S why the farm is better, not the injection of talent from the draft.

Is there a source online that provides this kind of info about the Mets moving up the rankings this fast? I’ve looked for organizational farm system rankings for an hour or so, and got the most reliable one that I could find from a reputable site – unfortunately, it was outdated. In a search for a more updated list, I couldn’t find one.

As for the "grit" comment, I’ll concede that- you later made a very good point about Cantu, and I agree that I would keep Francouer on the team, but of course not giving him anything more than a bench role until he earns it.

Fair enough – I certainly agree with that. It’s the way to go, assuming Francoeur’s baBIP normalizes (which will happen eventually).

But Pelfrey…you just cited his ERA? That’s going to lead to lots of inaccuracies. Considering he pitched a total of 90 innings in his first two seasons, when he was clearly not ready, it’s not fair to use that against him. So let’s include 2008 and 2009. In 2008, Mike Pelfrey was a 3.0 WAR pitcher. That is a #2-#3 starter performance, verified by his 3.96 FIP and his .302 BABIP. However, this year, Pelf has been worth 1.7 WAR…not great, of course, but good enough for a #3-#4 starter. However, this season seems unfortunate for him statistically, as he has been handed bad luck (.318 BABIP), and his FIP has only dropped moderately as opposed to his drastically dropped ERA. This is due to the fact that the Mets are the worst defensive team in baseball this year. A groundball pitcher like Pelfrey, putting the ball in play to Ramon Martinez, Anderson Hernandez, Luis Castillo et. al? That’s DEFINITELY leading to accurate results of his performance.

.318 baBIP is very much normal. Any baBIP that falls within the .285 – .315 range is pretty much standard and does not suggest any major deviations, with respect to skill. I could understand if Pelfrey had a .340 baBIP or something like that (which at that point is substantial), but if his baBIP did normalize towards the .300 mark, his ERA wouldn’t improve nearly enough to make him considerably more effective.

I do have to agree with your points about the problems in defense, although the Mets are 18th in fielding percentage this year (.984). They aren’t as bad a fielding team as, say, the Nationals or D-Backs. BUT, if the defenders make errors, the pitcher’s ERA for that baserunner is not affected, although the low range factor would lead to an increase in ERA anyway. But Pelfrey’s ERA is too high with a relatively normal baBIP to say that a good defense would make him even a desirable pitcher, statwise.

By the way, Pelfrey’s FIP (or DIPS) this season is 4.41 – that is NOT good. If his play this year is reflective of a pitcher with a 4.41 ERA, skillwise, there is much learning that needs to be done over the offseason.

As for rebuiliding…yes, I got a better sense of what you were trying to say this time. However, the think you don’t seem to grasp is that the farm is already being planted, and some of those prospects are coming to light now. It’s all well and good to say that the farm should have produced more than it has so far (which even then seems sort of incorrect…how many other team’s farms produced two of the best 20 players in baseball in the past 5 years?), but to say it NOW when some prospects ARE finally coming to light just seems sort of redundant and/or useless. Continuing the process is, of course, key, and I wasn’t encouraged by this years draft either. However, Familia, Mejia, Martinez, Flores, Marte, Tejada….all of them came from Int. signings. So there’s something to hope for.
I guess I mostly have a problem with you saying that "the process is underway, but they have to get results". If the process is underway, and a few results are finally cropping up, it’s not fair to criticize the FO’s inefficiency. Trust me, I’m aware of the problems…but if a specific problem (in this case, the minor league system) is being fixed, don’t yell at your repairman.

You got me on this one – I was more focused on an organizational list of rankings of farm systems and couldn’t find one that was from recent. If you google “farm system rankings”, you’ll know what I mean.

But I like what I’m hearing, and if this is really the case, I’m glad that I’m wrong. Go Mets!

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 23, 2009 1:38 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Overall, I think we agree on most of these things.

The one thing I’d add is that you’re giving the defense too much credit. The problem isn’t the team’s fielding percentage; it’s the team’s range, as evidence by advanced fielding statistics like UZR. As of 2 weeks ago, the Mets infield’s UZR was -25.4, which is an absolutely abysmal number. A groundball pitcher like Pelfrey is NOT going to thrive in that environment. As you see here, the Mets have the worst defense in baseball according to the best regarded defensive statistic out there. And read this post for more information on this topic.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Sep 23, 2009 7:04 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The one thing I’d add is that you’re giving the defense too much credit. The problem isn’t the team’s fielding percentage; it’s the team’s range, as evidence by advanced fielding statistics like UZR. As of 2 weeks ago, the Mets infield’s UZR was -25.4, which is an absolutely abysmal number. A groundball pitcher like Pelfrey is NOT going to thrive in that environment.

That is true (about giving defense too much credit), though I meant to use the defense as an example, solely for Pelfrey’s sake, to determine how good he actually was. With a 5.10 ERA, and normal .318 baBIP, but a 4.41 FIP, it is clear that the lack of defense is largely to blame – but Pelfrey still wasn’t that good. As mentioned earlier,

“if the defenders make errors, the pitcher’s ERA for that baserunner is not affected, although the low range factor would lead to an increase in ERA anyway… By the way, Pelfrey’s FIP (or DIPS) this season is 4.41 – that is NOT good. If his play this year is reflective of a pitcher with a 4.41 ERA, skillwise, there is much learning that needs to be done over the offseason.”

I believe in the UZR statistic, mostly with respect to fielding percentage (errors) AND range factor. The Mets have the 2nd worst range factor also, so it stands to reason that quite frankly, their defense SUCKS.

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 23, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pointless article

It was from March of this year, the system has greatly improved this season. Easily a top 15 system for a team that has been contending on a regular basis the last four years is solid.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 23, 2009 1:22 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Someone help me out, please

Are there any updated lists on the organizational farm system rankings? If so, where may I find this list?

It was from March of this year, the system has greatly improved this season. Easily a top 15 system for a team that has been contending on a regular basis the last four years is solid.

Assuming the results I’m hearing, I think the Mets will have a breakout season in 2011. Honestly though, I don’t think next year is their year. Better sooner rather than later with the farm system improvement, I say – they needed this badly and they probably got more than they were expecting. There should be some sort of list that is updated at least monthly, on these organizations. With all the people out there that are capable of doing this, I’m surprised I couldn’t actually find one!

I commend your input, squid92 and Evan_S – To be honest, the recent developments are a bit surprising, given the rapid pace of improvement.

I wonder where Wilmer Flores will play if Jose Reyes is in the way, though… but that’s an issue to be addressed at a much later time.

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 23, 2009 1:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wilmer isn't a shortstop, he's terrible defensively and not nearly quick enough. He's a 1B or maybe corner OF

There hasn’t been any updated lists yet, but just looking at the obvious, the system is much improved. F! has had the best results of his career since his first season. Niese had a great season, this time last year Ike Davis was a bust, Ruben Tejada and Jenrry Mejia were unknown quantities. Havens hasn’t lost value, Holt is interesting, success at A+ struggled in AA, Flores may have lost a little hype, but still a top prospect, we didn’t have guys like Famila or Allen or even Carson in our system with good results and high ceilings, (more so Familia and Allen) and guys like Thole and Nieuwenhuis had a great success. Last year we had F! and Flores and a bunch of guys who no one was sure how to rate.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 23, 2009 2:21 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow, the progress there is truly amazing.

Heck, I never even heard of Robert Carson or Kyle Allen! I need to read those minor league blogs more often.

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 23, 2009 3:04 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

If you don’t follow the minors on a regular basis you’re really at the mercy of whatever was said before the season or by “experts” and everyone’s favorite, “anonymous scouts.” Trust me, this year, following the prospects was more fun than watching the Mets.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 23, 2009 3:26 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

+ 10

I should basically follow you on this one – following the prospects is destined to be much more fun!

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 23, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

A couple good Met ones

http://www.nyfuturestars.com/community/viewforum.php?f=1
http://mets.scout.com/

For general prospect coverage Baseball America and Project Prospect are pretty good.

In general I agree with the above comments. I think Squid is overstating a bit on a couple of points. I don’t think Holt really increased his stock this year, he struggled a lot in AA. And Havens struggled some defensively, and hasn’t been able to stay healthy now for two seasons. Both guys do have top prospect potential, but I don’t think either is in the top 100 discussion this offseason. Flores may fall out as well, as he is very young and still has a lot of potential, but widespread reports of his lack of athleticism will probably hold him out of the top 100 until the bat starts to produce more.
 
On the upside though, you will see Mejia and Davis in every top 100 discussion, and both Kirk Nieuwenhuis and Jeurys Familia had break out seasons as well. Nieuwenhuis was a regular on the BA hot sheet the last couple of months, and both Davis and Nieuwenhuis made BA’s year end list of guys who stood out in 2009 (Nieuwenhuis in the “helium” category at the bottom).

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/prospect-hot-sheet/2009/268861.html

Bottom line, it is a pretty deep top 10 right now. Enough so that you can reasonably debate whether Thole even makes it (really he could be anywhere from 6-12). But, at least part of that is due to unfortunate injuries which just kept Niese and Martinez from graduating. And, it’s early to judge the 2009 draft, but early reports certainly indicate the Mets went cheap and added very little talent in 2009.

So it’s maybe above average for the moment, but it still gets thin after the first dozen, and could be headed in the wrong direction in a year of two as the guys you do have start graduating. On the other hand, there are still a few more interesting international guys at lower levels who could still break out if we’re lucky.

by acerimusdux on Sep 23, 2009 3:38 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good point.

Forgot N!

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Sep 23, 2009 7:05 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bottom line, it is a pretty deep top 10 right now. Enough so that you can reasonably debate whether Thole even makes it (really he could be anywhere from 6-12).

One name to remember: Francisco Pena (catcher)

So it’s maybe above average for the moment, but it still gets thin after the first dozen, and could be headed in the wrong direction in a year of two as the guys you do have start graduating.

I’m not too worried about that – the drafts will replenish that supply before long, I assume.

On the other hand, there are still a few more interesting international guys at lower levels who could still break out if we’re lucky.

It’s a game of wait and see. Every year produces breakout candidates – a la Pedro Florimon Jr. (a prospect on the promising Baltimore Orioles organization.) He isn’t putting up great numbers, but he is definitely improving at a fast pace.

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 23, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pena's not even top 15.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Sep 23, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Updated list - Geez, he has fallen!

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/blog_article/new-york-mets-top-prospects/

Top 40 prospects (compiled by fellow member Pat Andriola):

01. OF Fernando Martinez, Triple-A/MLB
02. 1B/RF Ike Davis, High-A/Double-A
03. SP Jenrry Mejia, High-A/Double-A
04. SS Wilmer Flores, A
05. SP Jon Niese, Triple-A/MLB
06. SP Brad Holt, High-A/Double-A
07. SS Reese Havens, High-A
08. SP Jeurys Familia, A
09. C Josh Thole, Double-A/MLB
10. SS Ruben Tejada, Double-A
11. CF Kirk Nieuwenhuis, High-A/Double-A
12. SP Kyle Allen, A
13. SP Robert Carson, A
14. SP Steven Matz, High School
15. 3B Zach Lutz, High-A/Double-A
16. SP Juan Urbina, International Signee
17. 3B Jefrey Marte, A
18. SP Dillon Gee, Double-A/Triple-A
19. OF Cesar Puello, Rookie
20. SP Scott Moviel, High-A
21. SP Brant Rustich, High-A
22. SP Eric Beaulac, A/High-A
23. SP Eric Niesen, Double-A
24. 2B Alonzo Harris, Rookie/Low-A
25. P Tobi Stoner, Triple-A/MLB
26. 2B Jordany Valdespin Low-A/A
27. RP Eddie Kunz, Triple-A
28. OF Darrell Celiciani, Rookie
29. SP Mike Antonini, Double-A/Triple-A
30. SS Robbie Shields, Low-A
31. C Francisco Pena, High-A
32. C Nelfi Zapata, Rookie
33. OF Carlos Guzman, High-A/Double-A
34. SP Zach Dotson, High School
35. SP Eduardo Aldama, Rookie/A
36. SP Jim Fuller, Low-A
37. SP Nick Carr, High-A
38. 3B Richard Lucas, Rookie/Low-A
39. 3B Aderlin Rodriguez, Rookie
40. SP Armando Rodriguez, Rookie/A

Just missing: 1B/LF Lucas Duda, 3B/1B Stefan Welch, CF Javier Rodriguez, SP Brandon Moore, OF Nick Santomauro

I highlighted some of my players of interest in bold. I really liked Antonini’s progress going into this year’s spring training, but he has regressed BADLY this season (his statline is mediocre, at best.) But last year, he was arguably the best Mets minor league pitcher in the higher levels.

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 23, 2009 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh shit

Check out Scott Moviel – a MLB debut would make him the tallest player ever! (Alongside Jon Rauch)

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 23, 2009 3:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

HOLY CRAP! (Non-Mets related, off-topic)

One of baseball’s top prospects, Giants prospect 1B Angel Villalona, could face 20 years in prison! His career could immediately be FINISHED! Read on in the article below:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=txgiantsvillalonasuspe&prov=st&type=lgns

The article is dated “Sep 20”, so this is one of the latest breaking news developments from the minors. Certainly very shocking, considering I hear his name quite often in prospect reports.

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 23, 2009 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Err

of course the Mets’ system improved dramatically since then: See Josh Thole, Jenrry Mejia, Kirk Nieuwenhuis, Ike Davis, Jeurys Familia, Kyle Allen

by METSMETSMETS on Sep 24, 2009 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I know

See my post ‘Updated list – Geez, he has fallen!’ above.

I stood corrected.

SOS = Same Old Sh*t

by sj10689 on Sep 24, 2009 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

How do you get the effiency rating?

"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"

by firejerrynow on Sep 22, 2009 7:03 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Efficiency rating

From the article:

Let:

E = Efficiency rating
L = Losses
Pa = League average payroll (constant)
Pt = Team payroll
W = Wins

K = (W² / (W + L) – a measure of a team’s “power”

-———————————
Pa = $88,336,287
-———————————

The efficiency rating formula is: E = (W² / (W + L)) * (Pa / Pt), or E = K * (Pa / Pt)

Basically, you take the amount of wins, square that number, then divide it by the amount of games played (W + L). This is a team’s “power” rating, which rises exponentially with more wins to account for something akin to the sum of a team’s parts. (You can only add so many players though, before a team realistically can’t win any more games, which is why the progression in the power ratings slope gets steep – hypothetically, if a team made each player twice as better, the team won’t win twice as many games; I would say more like a 40% increase in wins. That would justify my technique here.) You then multiply the power rating by (league average payroll / team’s payroll.) This is a good determinant of how budget-effective a team is. The Mets are, technically, the worst value team this year based on budget, or classically speaking, “the worst team money could buy”.

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 22, 2009 7:16 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

ding ding ding

we have a winner.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Sep 22, 2009 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, but my point stands.

I would say that the injuries are responsible for 15 of the losses, so if not for that, the Mets probably would be at 80-70. But, the Mets regulars have been underwhelming even when they did play (David Wright, Carlos Beltran and most of that pitching staff namely), and even if it wasn’t for the excessive injuries, let’s take a look at the efficiency numbers and see what we get:

Mets: 80 – 70 (Power = 42.67)

Pa = $88,336,287
Pt = $135,773,988
Pa / Pt = 0.65061274

E = K * (Pa / Pt)
E = (42.67) * (0.65061274)
E = 27.76 (that’s still not good!)

That ugly 27.76 number (Avg. = 41.23) would still put the Mets 26th in efficiency. But what about power-returns?

√K * E = √(42.67) * (27.76)

√K * E = 34.42

34.42 (Avg. = 38.96) would put the Mets 20th in power-efficiency returns. That’s still inadequate, and the Mets are still getting ripped off! 34.42 would only put the Mets 4 points above 25th! That is unacceptable!

My ideas for change have to be implemented. No exceptions. The Mets should clearly get more for their money, which is being mishandled. Their player development program is lacking, as of now, in terms of results.

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 22, 2009 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would like to add...

The Yankees are getting ripped off even with the best record in the league, but they are still getting more in poer-efficiency returns, even on that ridiculous budget!!!

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 22, 2009 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I see your point, but assigning a number of wins lost to the injuries is almost impossible

because not everyone got injured at the same time…..so, on a day when Johan pitched his heart out, we lost because Beltran, Wright and Reyes weren’t there, and on a day when thety were there Johan wasn’t pitching, etc.

Plus there’s the issue of Church missing third, and all the other shit.

But I like your approach, and I lobby for you to get job in the front office.

by fxcarden on Sep 22, 2009 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I might get the assistant VP job when John Ricco takes the helm...

Well, maybe not.

But still, there’s no doubting the fact that the Mets regulars have underperformed well below expectations even when they have played. The pitching took another step backward, as well, in that regard.

But to use inverse reasoning, I think we should emphasize injury as being part of the problems of many other teams. Still, the Mets had more than half a 25-man roster out at some points and the losses accelerate at a greater pace. We must do something about the injury problem itself – a medical staff overhaul will do. Ryan Church has criticized the medical staff of the Mets after being traded, and basically made the point that each player has their own doctor. The players don’t even trust their own medical staff!

If this problem gets worse, I think even the Mets might be covered under the new health care reform bill!

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 22, 2009 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think you are saying

we need an organizational enema, which I completely agree with, even if it means another couple of years before we can be legit again.

by fxcarden on Sep 22, 2009 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's basically the idea

It’s the conflict between instant gratification and deferred gratification. I’m clamoring for the latter.

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 22, 2009 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If this problem gets worse, I think even the Mets might be covered under the new health care reform bill!

I could see the D.C. Nationals lobbying to Congress to block this form of congressional legislation, in a pathetic attempt to not finish last…

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 22, 2009 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You should consider the money the teams make

from merchandise, tickets, etc, in addition to the wins.

by EtSuKe on Sep 22, 2009 10:20 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

That becomes a complicated topic of discussion

But I know you’ll be interested in the stuff you’ll find out below:

I was looking for this info for a long, long time and finally found it! Here’s a formatted copy of the Mets info page from forbes.com. (Hey, the footnotes actually work! Click on the footnotes to see!):
-————————————————————————————————————————————————
#2 New York Mets
04.22.09, 06:00 PM EDT



Current Manager: Jerry Manuel
www.mets.com

Team Value 1: $912 mil

The New York Mets
are owned by Fred Wilpon,
who bought them in 2002
for $391 mil.

2008 Wins-to-player cost ratio 8: 68

Valuation Breakdown

The skinny
The Mets have faded badly in two straight Septembers leaving the door open for the Philadelphia Phillies to win the division each year. To prevent a third straight collapse, Mets general manager Omar Minaya imported two star American League closers, Francisco Rodriguez and J.J. Putz, to shore up the Mets bullpen. The duo will be operating in a vastly upgraded stadium with the opening of Citi Field this year which replaces Shea Stadium which opened its doors in 1964. The furor over Citibank’s 20-year, $400 million naming rights agreement has lessened, but look for it to start up again if the government is forced to inject more billions into the beleaguered bank.

Major corporate sponsors are Delta Air Lines (nyse: DAL), PepsiCo (nyse: PEP), Geico, Verizon Communications (nyse: VZ), Anheuser-Busch, Xerox (nyse: XRX). Naming rights sponsor is Citigroup (nyse: C).
Historical Snapshot




Previous: New York Yankees
Next: Boston Red Sox

1-Yr Value Chg.: ……….11%
Ann. Value Chg. 2: …….13%
Debt/Value 3: …………..76%
Revenue 4: ………..$261 mil
Operating Inc. 5: …$23.5 mil
Player Expenses 6: $157 mil
Gate Receipts 7: ….$144 mil

Facility Information

Citi Field
Owner: City of New York
Year Opened: 2009
Capacity: 42,000
Cost To Build: $688 mil
Concessionaire: Aramark
Average Ticket Price: $34

Sport: Portion of franchise’s value attributable to revenue shared among all teams.
Market: Portion of franchise’s value attributable to its city and market size.
Stadium: Portion of franchise’s value attributable to its stadium.
Brand Management: Portion of franchise’s value attributable to the management of its brand.
Revenues and operating income are for 2008 season and are net of revenue sharing.
NA: Not applicable.
Team Logos Courtesy MLB.

    * Rank
    * Team
    * Current Value
    * 1-Yr Value Change
    * Debt/Value
    * Revenues
    * Operating Income

1 Value of team based on current stadium deal (unless new stadium is pending) without deduction for debt (other than stadium debt). 2 Current team value compared with latest transaction price. 3 Includes stadium debt. 4 Net of stadium revenues used for debt payments. 5 Earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization. 6 Includes benefits and bonuses. 7 Includes club seats. 8 Compares the number of wins per player payroll relative to the rest of the MLB. Postseason wins count twice as much as regular season wins. A score of 120 means that the team achieved 20% more victories per dollar of payroll compared with the league average. Photos AP
-————————————————————————————————————————————————
Source: http://www.forbes.com/lists/2009/33/baseball-values-09_New-York-Mets_334564.html

Don’t ask me how I posted a nearly picture-perfect copy of the article from the site – it wasn’t easy!

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 23, 2009 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Never mind the footnote links

They’re broken, somehow

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 23, 2009 12:43 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was thinking

I the Mets saw this post with the formula, they may want to have a meeting to evaluate things.

This meeting may go something like this:

Jeff: Hey Omar, have you seen this (hands him a printed copy).
Omar: Um, no….what is it ?.
Jeff: It’s a payroll proficieny formula some rocket scientist kid over at AA came up
             with. It makes us look pretty bad.
Omar: Oh, I see. You want me to make us look better ?.
Jeff: Could you ?
Omar: Only if you give me more money to spend so I can throw it away on bad deals.
              You know what I’m sayin’ ?
Jeff: Can we throw some money at the stadium, too…you know, to make it feel more
              like a Mets stadium ?
Omar: Have you discussed this with your father ?.
Jeff: Um….no….let’s keep this between us, OK ?
Omar: Hey listen, about those 3 year extensions for Jeff and Tim….you ok with this ?
Jeff: Sure, they did pretty well for us, and the fans seem to like the beard as much
              as they like Jeff having quick at-bats…..or is someone else the one with the
              quick bat ?.
Omar: I think you’re talking about Omir, and he has a short swing which can be called
              a quick bat……
Jeff: Oh….ok….are we giving him a 3 year extension, too ?.
Omar: We can, if you want.

by fxcarden on Sep 23, 2009 11:10 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Jeff: Can we throw some money at the stadium, too…you know, to make it feel more
              like a Mets stadium ?
Omar: Have you discussed this with your father ?.
Jeff: Um….no….let’s keep this between us, OK ?

LMAO!

Omar: Hey listen, about those 3 year extensions for Jeff and Tim….you ok with this ?
Jeff: Sure, they did pretty well for us, and the fans seem to like the beard as much
              as they like Jeff having quick at-bats…..or is someone else the one with the
              quick bat ?.
Omar: I think you’re talking about Omir, and he has a short swing which can be called
              a quick bat……
Jeff: Oh….ok….are we giving him a 3 year extension, too ?.
Omar: We can, if you want.

Clueless is, as clueless does! This is something I could definitely see happening

Legend has it, that when the full moon strikes the pitchers' mound at a Mets game, Mr. Met turns into Evil Mr. Met...

by sj10689 on Sep 23, 2009 7:03 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Test

Test

The METS shall rise!

by sj10689 on Sep 24, 2009 2:01 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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