Still 9 Games Applesauce - More on Mets' firing Pena, Nats lose 100th, 3,000 show up in Pittsburgh

by Joe Budd on Sep 25, 2009 7:58 AM EDT in Link Dump Comment 88 comments

Yesterday was the second to last off-day. How about that. That means the season gets to drag on one additional day at this point. It's kind of sad that I'm more excited about hot stove than actual baseball at this point.

Meet the Mets

Toby Hyde weighs in on the Ramon Pena firing; it is indicative of a bad organization when guys like these take the fall. Hyde also provides a prospect resume for Pena.

MetsMerized tries to get AA's blood boiling by advocating for a Bengie Molina signing.

I can't wait to pick up the newest Met version of The Show. On a side note, they haven't had a good MLB game for the XBox in forever.

Around the NL East

Congratulations to the Washington Nationals for making it over the hump. 100 losses! I am certainly inspired.

The Good Phight has a pretty awesome comparison for watching Brad Lidge. It kind of is the way I felt about John Franco most of the time.

Around MLB

The Sporting News has named Albert Pujols the Baseball Player of the Decade.

Jim Rice says that Zack Greinke is OK.

3,000 people showed up in Pittsburgh last night to see the Reds play the Pirates.

0 recs | Comment 88 comments | Share

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

His headline read:

Greinke is a Good Pitcher – Not Dominant

What is should read:

Jim Rice was a Good Player – Not Hall of Fame Worthy

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 25, 2009 8:32 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs

Seriously

Thanks Jim Rice. You were never this good in your career. Go away.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Sep 25, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I know he's not an OBP machine but...

All I’m saying is that Bengie Molina is above all:

1. An upgrade defensively over Thole or Omir

2. Caught two Cy Young winners and his pitchers rave about his game calling and the way he frames each pitch.

3. A solid RBI guy at a position where there are few.

4. He wouldn’t cost much and probably would sign a one year deal with a vesting option

5. Could adequately fill a void in the 6-7 spot in the lineup.

6. He has a World Series ring

Yes, I know he hates to take a walk, but at least he don’t swing from his heels and can drive the ball.

In the final analysis, after two seasons of Schneider, Cancel, Castro and Omir, Molina would be a significant upgrade and a better all-around catcher than anything we’ve had in that period.

by Joe D. on Sep 25, 2009 9:00 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Well

1. Maybe, Maybe not. No real substantive defensive stat for catcher. BTB tried their best
2. Caught two Cy Young winners? That means what exactly?
3. RsBI are a BS stat. You give a crappy hitter opportunities to drive in runs he’ll have 100 RsBI (See Francoeur, Jeff)
4. He’s gonna cost at least 5-6 million and probably demand a multi-year deal.
5. Probably
6. So does Timo Perez.

I’d much rather go for one year of Zaun for 1-1.5 million, or Henry Blanco for $750,000

And Ramon Castro would be the best option. He’d be much cheaper than Molina and have very good offensive production.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 25, 2009 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That Castro would actually only be true if he could stay healthy.

Health is really where all of Molina’s value comes from.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 25, 2009 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Let's also not forget

That Molina is likely a Type A free agent, so do you want to give up a 2nd or 3rd round pick for him in addition to the money?

by Eric Simon on Sep 25, 2009 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Mets dont forfeit picks...

Their picks are protected because they finished in the bottom ten. They can sign all the Type A’s they want.

by Joe D. on Sep 25, 2009 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm think Eric is right

Their first round pick is protected, so if we sign a Type A free agent that team gets a sandwich pick and one of our later round picks

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 25, 2009 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If John Schuerholz or Theo Epstein...

were overseeing the draft, I’d be more concerned about losing thrid and fourth round picks, but these are the Omar Minaya led Mets. As long as it’s not the first round, who really cares?

by Joe D. on Sep 25, 2009 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Minaya has drafted pretty well

We got a guy like Kirk Nieuwenhuis in the third round. The one thing he has done well, I think that was the title of a post here, is put together a decent farm system from nothing.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 25, 2009 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I count success stories...

by quality “major league” service time. That’s how everyone should gauge successful drafts.

by Joe D. on Sep 25, 2009 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

So you're basing his credentials on two draft classes?

okay 05 got us Pelfrey who is a solid major league pitcher. We only had 1 pick in the first three rounds there, but we got Jon Niese in round 7, Bobby Parnell in round 9, and Josh Thole in round 13. In 06 we didn’t have a first round pick, but got Kevin Mulvey in round 2 who we packaged and got Santana for, Joe Smith in round 3, and Murphy in 13. It’s unfair to talk about the 07 and 08 draft as most of those guys haven’t made it yet, but we got most of our top prospects from those two drafts.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 25, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pelfrey is solid?

Jon Niese? Bobby Parnell? Were you watching this season? Combined their ERA’s are 5.97 and their WHIPS are 1.51.

Mulvey? Smith? Have you seen their numbers?

If you like Omar, that’s fine, but lets not go out of our way to make him look like Branch Rickey.

He was in charge, and just because they are top Mets prospects, it doesnt mean they are top prospects. F-Mart is our highest ranked prospect and number 72 according to BA standards, and he may not even be Top 100 next February, and Thole wont be their either.

by Joe D. on Sep 25, 2009 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pelfrey is very solid

You understand that the terrible defense effects a ground ball pitcher’s results A LOT, right? Niese was wonderful in AAA this year and made some good starts before his injury, a 3.25 FIP in a small sample of 25 innings.. And Parnell is a decent relief pitcher, he had no business starting which made his numbers worse. Mulvey got us Santana, that is value, and Smith is also a solid relief pitcher.

Omar is a terrible GM, but a good scout. And where did you see Fernando being number 72? We’re gonna have at least 4 top 100 prospects this year. Fernando and Mejia are both top 30, Davis is top 50, Niese should be top 75, and Wilmer and Holt are subjective,it depends how you see their results against their potential. Even Havens, Tejada, Nieuwenhuis, Thole, Familia and Allen are sleeper picks.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 25, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The evidence for that is

Omar is a terrible GM

if he does sign a guy like Molina and lose more draft picks.

by Delgado on Sep 25, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

This is not correct

Only the Mets’ first round pick is protected. If the Mets sign one Type A they forfeit their second round pick. If they sign two Type A players they forfeit their second and third round picks.

Further, they can’t actually sign as many Type A players as they want; that number is dependent on the overall pool of Type As and the number of Type As the Mets lose themselves. Read this for a good summary of how that works.

by Eric Simon on Sep 25, 2009 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Drop that KNowledge on 'em E

by Delgado on Sep 25, 2009 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hey Delgado...

I should think you Jedi have more respect for the difference between knowledge and wisdom.

It’s been fun debating with you guys this AM, but duty calls.

by Joe D. on Sep 25, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks Eric

I was incorrect in my first comment but tried to fix my point in my follow up.

by Joe D. on Sep 25, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Just to add

3. He’s been batting 4th most of the time and couldn’t help but fall into some RBI.
5. If anyone with practically the same wOBA as Omir (sub .300) is batting anything but 8th, that’s a problem.

by Mount17 on Sep 25, 2009 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

One year deal

That is not happening for a player who come off 2 career years and is 35. He is looking for a 4 year deal and someone stupid enough to pay it. (Wilpons)

by Delgado on Sep 25, 2009 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe 3 years ago...

But no way under current market conditions does he get more than 2 years. Look at last years signings.

by Joe D. on Sep 25, 2009 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He's getting at least 2 years

and no way in hell does he deserve a 2 year deal

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 25, 2009 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Whoever they bring in

is going to be terrible. I only hope he’s really cheap and doesn’t cost any kind of draft pick.

by Bieser's Balk on Sep 25, 2009 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think he is getting

at least three to four year deal. He would be an upgrade at catcher, but at what cost. Does that cost us a good starter, a power left fielder? Molina can do only one thing and that is decline. Bring in Bako for under a mil a year.

Just because Schneider is over payed doesn’t mean we should over pay someone else because they are an upgrade over schneider.

Sorry about the general disjointedness of this rebuttal

by Delgado on Sep 25, 2009 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't want Bako

Henry Blanco is having a much better year and is making $750,000. If he could be had for 1 mill or less, I’d much rather have him. Zaun is probably the best catcher for the price, but his age is a concern.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 25, 2009 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Henry Blanco?!?!?!

He of the .235 – 5 – 15 and .372 SLG? And hasnt played more than 74 games in six years?? That’s you upgrade to Molina? What’s the sabermetric world coming to?

by Joe D. on Sep 25, 2009 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was talking in comparison to Bako

and Blanco for $750,000 is better than Molina at $6,000,000.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 25, 2009 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And let me add

Obviously Molina has ~300 more PA but:

Molina – .299 wOBA
Blanco – .307 wOBA

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 25, 2009 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Raw numbers...

are real numbers, percentages are cute and warm and fuzzy, but in the end actual runs scored and driven in win games. Part time players with eye-opening percentages mean very little to me. I’ll bet you 10 Mets Bucks that Molina blows Blanco out of the water in 2010 as he has in the last five years.

by Joe D. on Sep 25, 2009 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Percentages and rate stats also tell you much more about the player than raw numbers or put raw numbers in context.

RsBI and Runs Scored don’t tell you anything about the player. A bad player with more opportunities will have more RsBI than a good player with less opportunities, and Runs Scored are dependent on the players OBP as well as the players who hit behind him.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 25, 2009 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He probably will

b/c he will have more chances at suckitude to compile those “actual” numbers. Not saying Blanco should play more, just that offensively, Molina isn’t very good.

by Mount17 on Sep 25, 2009 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

So youre telling me

If you were GM, you would have never allowed Molina anything more than 20 games as a backup? Is that what you’re saying? Wow.

by Joe D. on Sep 25, 2009 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Um I checked the message board and I don't think anyone said that

by Delgado on Sep 25, 2009 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

How did you get this from his comment?

He’s saying if Blanco played as many games as Molina, he’d have better raw numbers.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 25, 2009 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

well yes or no?

If you had Blanco and Molina and you were GM, who gets 450 AB and who gets 175?

by Joe D. on Sep 25, 2009 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

My bad

I meant Blanco would have better raw numbers than he has, not better than Molina’s.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 25, 2009 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not sure

where I made a blanket statement about Molina’s career. But I will say, that this year Molina’s offensive stats are not what you would hope for from a full time player.

by Mount17 on Sep 25, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And the bigger point is

Molina would make 6-8 mil a year. Spending that money on first base or corner outfield is guaranteed to bring in more offensive production now and in the long rung then spending that money on an old catcher.

by Delgado on Sep 25, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If we could...

Get 15 HR/75 RBI from one of our catchers, may mean that replacing Pagan at LF may not be neccesary. Have you looked at his metrics? What would Pagan do given 600 plate appearances? So is giving Molina 6 million really worse than giving Holliday $20 million? That’s all I’m trying to say.

by Joe D. on Sep 25, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

"So is giving Molina 6 million really worse than giving Holliday $20 million?"

Yes.

by JoshNY on Sep 25, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1

Approximately four times worse, at a guess.

by deadspy3 on Sep 25, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Im all for letting Pagan play next year.

It’s the other corner outfield we need to replace. Also saying things like xHrs/xRBIs as a way to show this player is a good hitter is pretty meaningless to me. It is better to say 600PA .320/.410./550 for 20 mil vs 450PA of .255/.280/.420 for 8 mil. Yet this too is meaningless. For 8 mil would you rather have .255/.280/.420 or for 5 mil .300/.420/.400 (Nick Johnson)

by Delgado on Sep 25, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's much worse

because Holliday will get the Mets MUCH more scoring opportunities than Molina will. You’re talking about a difference of 50 wRAA on a year to year basis between the two. That’s a huge difference in offensive production. Every bit of Molina’s value comes from him playing on a regular basis.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 25, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Peace out...

I’ll have to continue this tomorrow.

by Joe D. on Sep 25, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You just failed

"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"

by firejerrynow on Sep 29, 2009 6:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'll be happy

with any veteran catcher we could pair with Thole for under a mil a year. Blanco probably would be the best choice, but I care more about spending less than a million a year.

by Delgado on Sep 25, 2009 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Look at it like this Joe

would you rather have Blanco and Bay or Molina and Francoeur

by Delgado on Sep 25, 2009 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If it meant Bay...

I’d agree with you…

by Joe D. on Sep 25, 2009 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Holliday is much much much much much better than Bay

Bay is one of the worst defensive outfielders in baseball, and he’ll only get like 3 or 4 million less than Holliday

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 25, 2009 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

+Rec for as many "much" as you can squeeze there

by Michkin on Sep 25, 2009 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I like Bay

but I agree. If we’re going to spend like crazy on a single OF, it would behoove us to skip Bay and go for Holliday.

by TheBigStapler on Sep 25, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Im with you there also

even if we can only add Holliday this offseason I still like it for the future. I kind of look at next year as a rebuilding year and with the way the economy is signing him to a 5 year deal this offseason might be a steal looking back.

My two questions are what do you think it will take to get Holliday. Is it going to be 20 mil a year or more like 16 mil? and why would Holliday leave St. louis with Pujous hitting there protecting him?

by Delgado on Sep 25, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He will get a Tex contract,

Put it in the bank.

by Joe D. on Sep 25, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Unless the Yanks are bidding on him he won't

I think his poor play in Oakland will hurt him a little and people don’t want to pay ridiculous prices in this economy. He’ll probably get 16 or 17 million, while Bay will get around 13

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 25, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

16 or 17 mil is great, but

Also the Red Sox might be looking at him as an upgrade to Bay.

Still I think he stays in St. Louis and the N.L. especially when the beat the Yankees in the world series this year.

by Delgado on Sep 25, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well that's gonna be hard

when the Yanks are out after the first round.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 25, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Jeter and Rollins can meet up

and play golf together.

by Delgado on Sep 25, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And hopefully beat each other with golf clubs.

One goes blind in one eye and then gets in the golf cart and runs over the other’s legs

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 25, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bad first half kills salaries?

I have a Mr. Voltron on Line 1 holding for you. He begs to differ.

Holliday’ll do well this offseason.(ESPECIALLY if he does something— anything— memorable in the postseason.)

by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Sep 25, 2009 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

By all that's holy...

Thole shouldnt even b in the major leagues for another 1 1/2 seasons.

by Joe D. on Sep 25, 2009 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Granted I haven't been watching

Mets games lately and have heard that Thole was making some embarrassing defensive plays, but with that said Omir Santos and Thole are not the reasons why this team is so bad. Starting pitching, injuries, lack of depth and lack of corner power are the four main problems.

by Delgado on Sep 25, 2009 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I almost agree

He should be in AAA to start the year next year, but should he have the same success there as he had in AA this year, he needs to be starting come 2011. Unless that is we sign Mauer

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 25, 2009 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That is a catcher that I would

be happy signing to a long term deal of course when he is a free agent next year.

by Delgado on Sep 25, 2009 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Mauer would be the end-all

to our debating of medicore options at catcher.

by Joe D. on Sep 25, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well, yes.

And Pujols would be a hell of a solution at first, Greinke in the rotation, etcetcetc.

by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Sep 25, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Dont forget...

We paid 5 million for Schneider this season. The point is if he’s an upgrade, and he certainly is, why not and whats the risk?

As for number 2, it means a lot in the real world. Wasn’t this one of the sites that extolled the virtues of Castro catching Buehrle’s no-hitter?

by Joe D. on Sep 25, 2009 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why spend money for a poor player at catcher

when we could spend that money elsewhere? Molina isn’t good enough to spend 6 million on.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 25, 2009 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

100% agree

If he was the last piece to the puzzle maybe. For his position he is above average offensively, but the Mets have far greater issues than hitting from a catcher.

by Delgado on Sep 25, 2009 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think any extolling of Castro

for catching the perfect game was done tongue-in-cheek. The Mets budget this offseason is likely ~$30 million. Based on your recent posts Joe, you would like to designate $12 million of that budget to Jeff Francoeur and Bengie Molina. I’m not sure that’s a great idea.

by James Kannengieser on Sep 25, 2009 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'll take that one step further:

I am sure that’s not a great idea.

by Eric Simon on Sep 25, 2009 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

At this stage

I might take Francoeur for a $3m 5th OF. But only along with Holliday at $18m and Pineiro at, what, $8m? On top of that, Blanco looks good at around $1m, with room for a couple of bullpen arms..

by deadspy3 on Sep 25, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

it was a joke

"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"

by firejerrynow on Sep 29, 2009 7:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Whoo RBIs

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Sep 25, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

RBI's FTW!

"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"

by firejerrynow on Sep 29, 2009 7:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Jim Rice

Shut yo mouth. Ever since this guy got in the HOF he’s been making an ass of himself.

by James Kannengieser on Sep 25, 2009 9:46 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Once again

Joe Pos had a great response to this bit of inanity. I’d link but I’m on the road. Still, i’d recommend folks go read it.

"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Sep 25, 2009 9:54 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs

Here you go sir

Pos prefaced his post with a vote by his readers,

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. And especially Hall of Famer Jim Rice.
Or does he?
OK, so what do I do? Write a scathing 20,000-word furious response … or just let it go?

And here is the result of the vote.

by Sokojoe on Sep 25, 2009 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Huh I thought pitching was what helped them win

Mets fans may remember how he single handedly beat the Yankees in the 2005 ALDS when he battle .444 and hit three homeruns in the series.

Did Molina start any games in the series also

by Delgado on Sep 25, 2009 10:59 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

That is about Molina by the way

and it made me puke up my breakfast tea and buttered bread when I read it.

by Delgado on Sep 25, 2009 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

well hey

he had a hot streak four years ago, good for him, let’s give him a long-term contract

by JoshNY on Sep 25, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

"single-handedly"

He played all 8 positions, plus DH, and started and closed all 5 games by himself.

I’m so glad that we’re supposed to care about what happened in 2005. Can we bring Cliff Floyd back? I always liked Cliffy and he was excellent that year. Also, let’s bring in Scott Podsednik, since he had a great postseason too. Jose Contreras was money in the postseason…..

I can’t believe stuff like this actually gets written by allegedly serious people.

Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.

by Greenpoint Ian on Sep 25, 2009 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs