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Stark says to trade Jose Reyes and bring in "grinders". My favorite parts of the article:

"They need to think character, and bring in high-character players," said one baseball man we surveyed. "The single greatest difference between the Phillies and the Mets is that the Phillies have guys in their clubhouse who care about each other and they're all about winning. The Mets don't have nearly enough guys like that."

and

What do the Mets need? We heard terms like "gamers" and "blue-collar players" over and over. To be a truly great team, said one scout, "you need grinders, not stars. And the Mets have been All-Stars and no grinders."

How can you argue with intelligent sources like "baseball man" and "scout"?

over 2 years ago Matty_ice_tiny johnmac7512 82 comments 0 recs  | 

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was the scout anonymous?

if not he doesn’t know what he’s saying.

by Gina on Sep 3, 2009 4:12 PM EDT reply actions  

Yeah

the scout was anonymous.

by johnmac7512 on Sep 3, 2009 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

I beg to differ

and wish to disclaim any involvement.

by anonymous on Sep 3, 2009 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

lol

"It's like the old phrase goes.....The balls in your court now Mr.Church, so you take that ball, you dribble it up the court and....................................... get a layup"
- Keith Hernandez

by nrmax88 on Sep 3, 2009 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

My favorite part

is where he says that 3 executives polled thought it was a great idea to trade Reyes, but then he only quotes an executive who says it’s a really terrible idea.

Thanks Jayson. We’ll just take your word for it that those 3 guys had their reasons.

by DannyMetsGeek on Sep 3, 2009 4:13 PM EDT reply actions  

Lifelong Phillies fan Jayson Stark thinks the Mets should be more like the Phillies?

color me shocked.

"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Sep 3, 2009 4:19 PM EDT reply actions  

I almost thought he might be going in the direction with this piece.

Before suggesting we build a team of grinders, Stark recognized the precipitous drop-off in talent between the core and peripheries and noted our abundance of holes.

His solution, naturally, is to trade Jose Reyes.

by Andrew McCarthy on Sep 3, 2009 4:26 PM EDT reply actions  

It's not as provocative

to suggest getting complimentary pieces that are not quite as sucky.

by DannyMetsGeek on Sep 3, 2009 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

The thing is

trading Reyes now, while his value is at an all-time low, would be foolish. And if we did trade Reyes, we would need to get actual talent back, not just “grinders”. Trading Reyes now is probably not the best direction to go in.

by johnmac7512 on Sep 3, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

When I used to post on metsblog that seemed to be how the logic went

Oliver Perez sucks, our bullpen sucks, luis castillo sucks… lets trade Wright he’s too pretty.

by Gina on Sep 3, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

here's part of a quote from the ESPN Comments section

“As for this year, I love the incredibly flawed logic expressed by many below: “take away 3 of the top 4 players from any team and they would stink.” Ok, let’s take away Howard, Rollins and Victorino from the Phillies: they still would have Werth, Utley, Ibanez, Feliz, not to mention a couple decent prospects to fill the injured holes with. What did the Mets have when you took away 3 of the top 4? Wright and uhh, ummm, Daniel Murphy? Wilson Valdez? Take Jeter, Texeira and Damon off the Yankees, they still have A-Rod, Cano, Posada, Matsui, good professional hitters! Take away Pedroia, Youklis and Ellsbury from the Red Sox, they still have Big Papi, Bay, Martinez, Lowell, legitimate hitters! The Mets have a 150 million dollar payroll and replaced their injured players with double A scrubs. Couple that with the fact that their sacred core, that supposedly would have catapulted this team to the top had they stayed healthy this year, choked two years in a row. I’m sorry, its not called “bad luck” when you fold at home against bad teams in September two years in a row, it’s called being “losers.”

He correctly diagnoses the problem for 8 lines, then throws it away at the end. It’s the equivalent of a doctor telling you: “let’s see, you have a fever, headache, muscle aches, chills, extreme tiredness, runny nose, and nausea. Yep, definitely looks like you broke your leg.”

by cjmulrain on Sep 3, 2009 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

He was SO close.

To bad he’ll never get it because he has the mental capacity of a chipmunk with a shard of glass lodged inside of his cerebellum.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Sep 3, 2009 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

except

the yankees/red sox get a DH. and ellsbury isn’t beltran, he’s like pagan. big papi has been a joke, and they traded for vmart.

the yankees were terrible without a-rod, posada, and with teixeira taking his annual april vacation.

by firejerrymanuel on Sep 3, 2009 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rec'd

For the last paragraph alone

by James Kannengieser on Sep 4, 2009 2:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

That is a bit misconstrued.

They Yanks and Phils offense is just plain better anyway. Also, a better equivalent for the Phils would be losing Utley, Victorino and Howard. Still they would have more than us, but would the fill ins be that much better.

Who would they put at 2B? Bruntlett? Also, if they did lose those 3 for the length of time we did, they would be hurting pretty badly as well.

The other flawed bit of logic is that the Mets lost significantly more than just 3/4 of their core. They lost backup to backups for periods of time and how many members of their pitching staff (which was supposed to be their strength).

by Balagast on Sep 4, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think the fact that both teams have offenses that are just plain better

Is part of the problem, if you match core vs core for teams our core’s offense should be better, but we surrounded our core which much inferior players.

by Gina on Sep 4, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Very true

Like I said though, this team wasn’t supposed to be a out slug em’ style team. We were supposed to have good pitching and a great combo of Frankie and Putz to close the door.

Coming into the season the Phils pitching looked as inferior as our hitting did to theirs.

The mets pitching this year has suffered from terrible defense, injury, and guys being metal cases just as much (if not more) than the lineup.

by Balagast on Sep 4, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bruntlett

I know it was impossibly random, but Bruntlett did turn the unassisted triple play against us at 2B.

by BobbyV_Incognito on Sep 4, 2009 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

And the only reason given for not trading Wright

is that he’s the “face of the franchise,” not that he’s an awesome player. Thank you, “one exec” (who apparently isn’t attached to any league)!

by Mount17 on Sep 3, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

he has a AAA position

"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"

by firejerrynow on Sep 3, 2009 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't know if that's what he was stating

he seemed to just be regurgitating unnamed scouts opinions. The part of his argument that made sense was pitching. They are pretty screwed rotation-wise, there is no debating that. Maybe a Randy Wolf or Marquis, or healthy Niese would help, but it will be the weak link again next year.

by David G on Sep 3, 2009 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah I wouldn't do if I was you.

Just know, if there's ever a riot at Citi Field and Oliver Perez was the starter, I started the riot.

by meigs1414 on Sep 3, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was just coming to post this article

atrocious. The worst part is that it wouldn’t shock me if that’s exactly what Omar does. A creative GM could turn this team into a 95 win team next year. With Omar, I have a feeling he’s going to doom us to 85 wins in perpetuity.

by cjmulrain on Sep 3, 2009 5:12 PM EDT reply actions  

I seriously can't believe

they’re using the AA and AAA team’s records as the reasons why our farm system is so awful.
And I agree, this article is obnoxious. Jon Niese can’t contribute because he’s a rookie, despite his impressive showings when he pitched. OK! Mike Pelfrey’s a #4 or #5 starter because he has had a bad month, despite his 1.8 WAR, .321 BABIP, and .429 FIP that would suggest he’s a #3. OK! The Mets farm system is atrocious because the top two levels have bad records, despite the numerous breakout prospects and the fact that Fernando Martinez, Ike Davis, Jenrry Mejia, Brad Holt, Kirk Niuewenhuis, Reese Havens, Ruben Tejada, and Josh Thole are all potentially within a year or two away from the majors. OK! They can’t trade K-Rod because they just signed him, even though it would (gasp) be intelligent to do so. OK! They should trade Jose Reyes because THEY HAVE TO, despite the fact that players like him that are inexpensive and good are part of the solution, not the problem. OK!
God, Jayson Stark, go die in a hole.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Sep 3, 2009 5:34 PM EDT reply actions  

This is all a bit like how when one party is in power they love to tell the other party what they need to do

It’s little more than gloating, which Stark likes to do a lot.

"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin

by dcrockett17 on Sep 3, 2009 7:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good shit Mr. Squid.

I can say that you just made my day a tad bit better and put a smile on my face for a minute. Thanks.

"It's like the old phrase goes.....The balls in your court now Mr.Church, so you take that ball, you dribble it up the court and....................................... get a layup"
- Keith Hernandez

by nrmax88 on Sep 3, 2009 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

excellent analysis Squid

He really does sound like an arrogant blowhard when you put it that way

"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage

by blueandorange4life on Sep 4, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Another thing

I don’t think the Mets are in nearly as bad a predicament as it’s now being suggested they are. I know I’ve seen in some places the logic that “they’re 17 games back, no way 3 healthy players would have them in the race.” That made me think of this article by Joe Pos, which I think helps explain the Mets terrible record just as much as their lack of depth. This was a team that was in the race even after Beltran got hurt, and then right before the break they had the double whammy of getting swept by the Phils and finding out that Reyes, Delgado, AND Beltran weren’t coming back to help any time soon. I think it just became too much – the healthy players just weren’t good enough and they knew it, and I think the fire went out completely. I don’t think they’re nearly as bad as this season suggests, and like I said, a creative GM could turn things around in a hurry. They’ve still got one of the most talented cores in the Majors, but they need to surround them with talent soon, or we’ll waste our best chance since the mid-80’s to win titles.

by cjmulrain on Sep 3, 2009 6:05 PM EDT reply actions  

The quote about "grinders" was the weakest part

of the article. The Phillies are good because they have outstanding and talented hitters who crush the ball, not because they are “grinders.” The rest of the article was pretty good though.

by David G on Sep 3, 2009 6:14 PM EDT reply actions  

That, and they play in a park that really enhances offense

"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin

by dcrockett17 on Sep 3, 2009 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

the phillies all-star to grinder ratio

got thrown off this year. that’s why they won’t win.

werth has been playing too well. last year he was a grinder. this year he’s an all-star. that’s going to wind up costing the phillies.

this article was fucking dumb, and just piling on.

and to the person talking about the yankees would still be fine without tex/a-rod, tell me what their record was in mid May?

by firejerrymanuel on Sep 3, 2009 6:44 PM EDT reply actions  

Wow

My first ever fanpost made the front page. I feel like a celebrity (or something).

by johnmac7512 on Sep 3, 2009 6:46 PM EDT reply actions  

Stark is a good writer..

but he really throws his credibility down a well when he constantly quotes executives about the Mets need “gamers” and “grinders”

by Syler on Sep 3, 2009 6:50 PM EDT reply actions  

Yeah he is better then Olney or Gammons

but what is that really saying.

"It's like the old phrase goes.....The balls in your court now Mr.Church, so you take that ball, you dribble it up the court and....................................... get a layup"
- Keith Hernandez

by nrmax88 on Sep 3, 2009 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Its like saying Omir Santos is better than Angel Berroa

While that may be true, it doesn’t mean either should be ML players.

"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green

by Stephen Schmidt on Sep 3, 2009 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gammons would be fine if every article of his

wasn’t just an excuse to shower the Boston Red Sox in praise. Then again, Olnery does that too.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Sep 4, 2009 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not to mention

Gammons is currently peddling that “NL is AAAA baseball” nonsense that even Bill Simmons has given up on.

"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Sep 4, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

THATS CUZ THE SAWX ARE DA BEST

FACK YOU

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Sep 4, 2009 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

more favorite quotes from that article

maine is back to being a AAA pitcher. you know, a guy who even when injured has a 4.5 ERA.

we don’t have any prospects to call up, and yet we get dinged for having niese in our rotation because “he’s a rookie.” because rookie pitchers are the devil!

and then parnell “is heilman all over again.” what does that even mean? he’ll be a really good reliever?

also, when a guy was listing our holes, and he said, “and they need another set-up lefty.”

you can’t contend if you don’t have 2 lefties in your bullpen. right yankees?

by firejerrymanuel on Sep 3, 2009 6:53 PM EDT reply actions  

I don't have a problem with 95% of this article.

I do wish he would name the other scouts and GMs by name. I bet you one of them is from Philly.

That said, I am surprised at everyone’s reaction here. We often talk here about “Grission”….aka “Grinders”. When someone puts it in print it’s a problem ?

by fxcarden on Sep 3, 2009 7:13 PM EDT reply actions  

Because they're serious about us "missing" them.

When in reality, teams don’t need short white guys who are bad at baseball to win.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Sep 3, 2009 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

GRINDERS!!!!!!!

It’s such an easy solution, even Omar can’t screw it up!

by englishgrey on Sep 3, 2009 8:01 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

+100000000000000000

"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage

by blueandorange4life on Sep 4, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jayson, define Grinder

While mentioniong gridners, they completely left out grinder extrordinaire Omir Santos and Jeff Francoeur.
Also, trading Reyes. Uhuh. Execs, how do win baseball games? The most grission points?

"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"

by firejerrynow on Sep 3, 2009 8:23 PM EDT reply actions  

In Stark's defense...

we were 100% healthy in 2006, 2007, and 2008, and not exactly covered in glory, eh?

In 2007 and 2008 we were effectively the laughingstock of MLB.

Trading Reyes at this point would be stupid, granted. But I’m also not buying that two spectacular collapses were just random chance occurences.

Back to back epic failures warrants some questions about a team’s character.

by Mex_17 on Sep 3, 2009 9:01 PM EDT reply actions  

huh?

100% healthy in 2006 and 2008? No Pedro & no El Duque heading into the playoffs, requiring John Maine and Oliver Perez to step up and pitch big postseason games that they were never supposed to pitch in ’06. Last year the bullpen fell apart after Wagners injury, and more or less single-handedly sabotaged the season. 2007 is less explainable, although Alou did (predictably) get hurt.

And the reason they were the laughingstock the past two years is b/c the core was good enough to keep them in the race until the very end of the year despite a crappy bullpen and poor depth (especially last year).

by cjmulrain on Sep 3, 2009 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

How was 2008 an "epic failure"?

It sucked to lose the lead late, but it was NOTHING like 2007.

by gogomets on Sep 3, 2009 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think anyone has said they were random

More like we have stars surrounded by a lot of crap. And a lot of crap has a tendency to hold teams back.

by Gina on Sep 3, 2009 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

And actually...

If you read the article, Stark is not saying to trade Reyes for a bunch of terrible “try hard” guys. I think you sensationalized it quite a bit, and were looking for something to take umbrage with.

Stark basically just points out the same massive holes on this team that all of us have been pointing out. Catcher, 1B, LF, RF, pitching staff. No one denies that.

The article basically arrives at the conclusion that the Mets are in a tough spot. They don’t have many (any?) easily tradeable pieces, and they have a lot of holes on the roster.

One guy says maybe we should trade Reyes, another guy says that would be nuts. Stark seems to side with the people who say it would be nuts.

I don’t see the basis for the usual outpouring of indignation.

by Mex_17 on Sep 3, 2009 9:11 PM EDT reply actions  

well said.

which is why I said earlier I had no problem with 95% of his article.

by fxcarden on Sep 3, 2009 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

when I saw the grinders quote

i thought of this blog…

I think the big problem is that word.

There is a lack of heart on this team the last couple years. Yes, Talent is A#1 when it comes to winning ball games. Without a doubt, 100%.

However, there is more to baseball then simply talent. 162 games is a marathon. You need guys that keep the drive going. I agree that the mets dont have that. They have some great ball players… but… they are basically a bunch of pussies.

by gbaked on Sep 3, 2009 11:15 PM EDT reply actions  

and let me follow that up

by saying I think its more of a management problem then it is a player problem.

Art Howe, Willie Randolph, Jerry Manual… these guys want to be your best friend. You look at the list of managers that have won recently, and they are generally not “players” managers.

It even goes all the way to the Wilpons. Caring so much about what is written about them, wanting everyone to be friends. It just reeks of desperation.

Things that reek generally have gone bad.

by gbaked on Sep 3, 2009 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

And Pelfrey too

It sure seemed like he didn’t give a shit when he ran laps around the Coors Field parking lot to punish himself for a bad performance.

by englishgrey on Sep 4, 2009 1:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

two comments

that completely missed the point of what I was trying to say.

I clearly was not articulate enough before I fell asleep.

by gbaked on Sep 4, 2009 8:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Ok, what were you trying to say?

Because I’m pretty sure you said that “the Mets don’t have guys who can keep the drive going, because they’re a bunch of pussies”. I’m pretty sure I understood your, um, “argument”.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Sep 4, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

wow

i have never been called a troll in my entire internet life.

If I would have brought this up in a post that was discussing something completely different in topic, then yes… i can see your point. But I felt this was relevant to what was being discussed.

Does this blog not believe in disagreement? Are the writers based in Nazi Germany where no dissenter is tolerated? Color me insulted and I will defend my point later tonight in a fanpost when I have more time.

by gbaked on Sep 4, 2009 8:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

congratulations

based on a quick search, I’m pretty sure you win the Godwin Award for Amazin’ Avenue.

by cjmulrain on Sep 4, 2009 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

nice, I didn't know we had a godwin award

I think that might be faster than even Godwin’ anticipated

"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage

by blueandorange4life on Sep 4, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Every baseball player has a heart.

If they didn’t, they couldn’t play baseball.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Sep 4, 2009 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

It's one thing to disagree

it’s another to call the Mets “pussies.” This contributes nothing.

by James Kannengieser on Sep 4, 2009 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry...

Stark’s quoting a handful of unamed ‘baseball execs’ and ‘scouts’ is as vague as Erin whats-her-name citing her source as a FO ‘person’, all the while admitting she knows nothing about MLB.

He got exactly what he was looking for in posting this piece: visibility. I’ve been all over the blogsphere today and it’s linked and quoted all over.

Write something controversial, especially knowing you’ll incite a good number of fans, well that will work for you every time. Doesn’t have to be factual, doesn’t even have to necessarily be intelligent. Just has to cause a stir. That’s all it takes to have your name/blog a household word for 24 hours….

by MetsFan4Decades on Sep 3, 2009 11:46 PM EDT reply actions  

GRISSION!

You don't cheer for the Mets. You drink for the Mets.

by Kevin H on Sep 4, 2009 7:54 AM EDT reply actions  

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