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For Next Season, a Plea for Dave Duncan

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via cache.daylife.com

So, of the myriad difficulties facing the Mets this offseason, one of the most perplexing is the question of the starting rotation. Right now we have one known quantity in the person of Johan Santana. Niese is coming off of major surgery, Maine is an unknown (not saying anything good or bad, but he hasn't pitched for most of a season so we don't know) Pelf and Ollie have been maddeningly inconsistent, and in Ollie's case injured. Notwithstanding the recent successes of our fill in rotation (or the fab 4 as Chris Carlin called them tonight) they are for the most part back-end of the rotation pitchers (if that, in some cases), or still developing (read: Parnell) I've heard lots of possible solutions for this, and I'd like to suggest that maybe a change in oversight is needed as well as  a trade. Nothing personal against Dan Warthen, but he does not seem to be the one to preside over the pitching staff any longer, although how much he could have done or did do to try and help Ollie and Pelf in particular I'm not sure. Fortunatly there is an answer out there, someone who can help right the ship, and that answer is Dave Duncan.

Star-divide

Duncan has been the pitching coach for the St. Louis Cardinals since 1995 when Tony La Russa started manging them. Before that he was the pitching coach for two of La Russa's other teams, the White Sox and then the A's. From 1988-1990 under his tenure the A's led the AL in ERA, and in 2005 the Cardinals led the entire league in ERA. However much weight you give to the Cy Young award, he has coached four of them over a span of 26 years, with Chris Carpenter in 2005 the most recent.  His staff this season is nothing to sneer at either. Overall, he's consistently been one of if not the best in the business

Not only does Duncan produce excellent pitchers, he is also great at solving problem pitchers. When the Cardinals acquired Kyle Lohse last season he had produced a run of losing seasons starting in 2004 for the Twins. Lohse was 15-6 last season with a 3.78 ERA. He's been injured this season, so there isn't much of a sample size there, but I think the turn around is significant. John Smoltz had several bad starts in Boston before being released. In his first start as a Card he resembled the Smoltz of old, and he claimed that Duncan had helped him tremendously. Granted, his starts were against last place teams, but he's put up a 0.82 ERA since leaving Boston where he was 2-5 with an ERA of 8.33. Admittedly, these two example are shaky ground to base an argument on, but the rest of the staff speaks for itself. Since July 1st the top 3 in the Cards rotation, Wainwright, Carpenter and Pineiro are 28-4 combined. The Cardinals pitching over all is in the top 5 in the league in ERA, WHIP, ER and R allowed, and has given up the fewest walks this season.

Having shown his credentials, it would seem nuts for us to even consider stealing him away from the Cardinals, but there are two factors in our favor. Duncan's contract is up after this season, and he's not happy in St. Louis. His son Chris was traded away and was treated poorly by the St. Louis media. He has pondered ending his long partnership with La Russa, so he's open to the possibility of going elsewhere. Consider what he's done in St. Louis with Carpenter, Smoltz, Darryl Kile, and a host of others. I personally think he'd be able to turn things around here pretty damn quick. He is a mechanic and a problem solver; Pelf's yips and head games with himself should be easy going. Perez is just the sort of player that Duncan does best with. Say what you want about Ollie, he has definitely shown flashes of brilliance, even though of late they have been few and far between. Duncan could bring Ollie back to his 2004/2007 form, "Good Ollie" as some of us have called him. Duncan would also be an invaluable resource to the many young pitchers in the major league club and in the minors. I don't doubt that Mejia, Niese, and Holt would greatly benefit from his teaching.

Certainly having Dave Duncan isn't a magical cure-all for the Mets pitching issues, but it would certainly be a big help, and frankly we'd be stupid to pass him up. So please, Jeff, Fred, Omar, if you guys are reading this, give this guy a call, and get his ass to New York pronto. He'll come a lot cheaper than most of the other possible fixes you might be dreaming up. This is the sort of move that, while not excusing your previous collective bad judgment, might at least raise your stock a little bit and show us that you have some brains. I don't think I'm asking too much for you to at least consider him, unless of course Dan Warthen has some sort of unspeakably horrible blackmail on you, which is something else entirely. But anyway, I hope you'll take some inspiration from this, and next year we'll see Duncan in a Mets jersey. Thanks for your time.

Poll
Should the Mets hire Dave Duncan as pitching coach for 2010?
Yes
272 votes
No
17 votes

289 votes | Poll has closed

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Comment 44 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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I'd be thrilled with that move.

I really wanted to see the Mets sign Rudy Jaramillo a few years ago when his contract was up as well.

"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green

by Stephen Schmidt on Sep 5, 2009 10:36 AM EDT reply actions  

Well done

The Duncan philosophy of groundballs, no walks, no home runs, no strikeouts, and low pitch counts works. Carpenter/Wainwright/Pineiro is the best trio on one team in baseball.

by James Kannengieser on Sep 5, 2009 10:50 AM EDT reply actions  

Groundballs at Citi?

Just the other day someone prominent here made the case for improving outfield defense to take advantage of Citi’s dimensions and help out the predominantly flyball staff. Can’t have both.

The praise for Duncan is too reminiscent of that for Peterson when he first arrived here. Surely pitching coaches are more important than, say, hitting coaches, and I agree that Duncan’s excellent, but there’s no substitute for sending quality healthy arms to the mound.

by madisonmetsfan on Sep 5, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think that comparison is really fair

since Peterson doesn’t have nearly the same successful pedigree that Duncan does. I never really bought into all the Peterson brouhaha. Peterson’s clam to fame is Zito, Mulder, and Hudson and a couple of good years with the A’s. He also has more than his share of fails (the comment of “fixing” Victor Zambrano comes to mind). Duncan has been all around better.

"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage

by blueandorange4life on Sep 5, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think anyone here is against sending quality healthy arms to the mound

This isn’t advocating for the signing of piece-of-shit pitchers in hopes that Duncan can magically turn them into Chris Carpenter. And I’m curious why you can’t both improve outfield defense and bring in Dave Duncan as pitching coach.

Duncan wouldn’t automatically give every pitcher an awesome GB%, and I don’t even want that. But the Cardinals are always pretty good as far as limiting walks, something this Mets team needs help with.

by James Kannengieser on Sep 5, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

The GB part of the strategy makes no sense to me.

Reducing walks is absolutely a great thing, especially if Duncan were able to get through to Pelfrey and Perez. But if, as you suggest, one of Duncan’s strengths is improving groundball %, it seems to me that does not suit the way Citi plays. And one can overhaul only so much of a team in an offseason.

by madisonmetsfan on Sep 5, 2009 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I really doubt that, if hired, he would come in and try to "convert" Johan and Ollie to groundballers

This isn’t like a college football coach coming to a team and instituting the option offense, where that’s the only thing being run and everyone must conform. If he’s smart, which I think he is, he would assess the pitchers’ strengths and weaknesses and target areas of improvement. Control is a major area of concern for this pitching and it seems like Duncan knows something about improving it.

I don’t think he’s a savior or anything and I wouldn’t want the Mets to throw absurd amounts of $$ at him in lieu of signing good players, but he’s clearly an effective coach. I’m not sure the same can be said of Dan Warthen.

by James Kannengieser on Sep 5, 2009 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

it would be a great move

and one that i would probably follow by signing joel pineiro this offseason

by Rob Castellano on Sep 5, 2009 10:51 AM EDT reply actions  

Agreed.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Sep 5, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I dont think that it would be that tough to lure him in, if he decides he is out of St Louis.

giving him a shit load of money to coach in a great pitchers park with a big budget team in a place where he will really get recognition even moreso then in St Louis would probably get the job done, you would think.

"It's like the old phrase goes.....The balls in your court now Mr.Church, so you take that ball, you dribble it up the court and....................................... get a layup"
- Keith Hernandez

by nrmax88 on Sep 6, 2009 2:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

This is one of those thoughts that really needed no voicing

due to the fact that it’s so obvious. “Would you like to bring in a pitching coach who is considered by many to be the best ever at his job or would you like to go a different direction?” “Would you like a free beer?” “Do you prefer to make 50,000 a year or would you rather get paid 100,000 for the same job?” “Would you like it if I made you a sandwich afterwards?”

by Bruce Wayne on Sep 5, 2009 11:47 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

seriously

warthen is horrible though.

it’s amazing that one organization can have jerry manuel, dan warthen and razor shines in three of their most important coaching positions.

by T Pac on Sep 5, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

recommended

for the sandwich line.

"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"

by jessef on Sep 10, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Duncan would be great

but with Jerry still around I am not sure if he would come here.

If they replaced Jerry with Booby V. and got Duncan also, that would be kind of coup. I think those two working together would fix a lot of stuff and we could get a lot more mileage out of average players instead of dumping megabucks into FAs.

by fxcarden on Sep 5, 2009 12:03 PM EDT reply actions  

He's smart and understands when not to play small ball.

He’s much better than Manuel.

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Sep 5, 2009 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Shit, I'm better than Manuel, but...

if you’re going to get a new manager and Bobby V. is available, why even consider Acta.

by fxcarden on Sep 5, 2009 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think Acta's a very good manager

He says all of the right things in interviews, but from what I’ve heard he doesn’t make great in game decisions and doesn’t manage his players well. That may explain why the Nationals have underperformed so much during his tenure there.

Smoltz.

by vivaelpujols on Sep 6, 2009 12:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not sure if I agree with that.

At one point, people were whining about the defense while the team was fielding four corner OFs and only had one well above average defender on the field.

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Sep 6, 2009 1:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

Underperforming? Really?

"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw

by squid92 on Sep 6, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, before the season they were projected to win about 75 games

However, they are playing like a 50 win team. That means they are underperforming.

Smoltz.

by vivaelpujols on Sep 6, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Would you say that team has enough talent

especially pitching talent (minus Jordan Zimmerman no less) to win 75 games? They aren’t under performing, they’re just really bad.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 7, 2009 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think they definitley have that much talent

Even so, nobody loses as many games as they have without underperforming.

Smoltz.

by vivaelpujols on Sep 7, 2009 6:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Meh

I’m always skeptical of these guys who get the guru label. Peterson came here with that hype and didn’t pan out. Mazzone went to Baltimore and hasn’t really helped. Joe Kerrigan had that reputation for a while too.

He may be better than Warthen, but I don’t know how much better he really makes these guys.

by Reg Dunlop on Sep 5, 2009 3:43 PM EDT reply actions  

Even if it's only a little better

it’s worth it. I don’t think that coaches have a huge impact on a player’s performance, but even a marginal improvement would be worth it. And like everyone has said, Warthen’s nothing much anyway, maybe a new voice (with a plan) could help them.

Trying to believe is my full-time occupation.

by Preach19 on Sep 5, 2009 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

I totally agree with you about Guru's

My point was I think that he would really make the guys we have better because of his track record of turning problem pitchers around, not because he’s some sort of genius of pitching psychology or anything like that (a la Peterson). He’s just a really good coach, no more, no less.

Warthen needs to go, and Duncan has been consistently good whether you distrust the guru label or not. I don’t want the Mets to over pay for him, but I think he is definitely worth a look, and he’s the best of whatever group of pitching coaches are at the end of their contracts this offseason (at least I’m fairly certain of that)

"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage

by blueandorange4life on Sep 5, 2009 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!?

He is not going to leave Tony LaRussa. So they traded his son, he will get over it. LaRussa and Duncan have a great relationship, and I highly doubt that he leaves STL.

Gary Thorne=Simply the Best!

by The American Mr.Hockey on Sep 6, 2009 12:07 AM EDT reply actions  

Only if you're willing to call the Perez contract a sunken cost.

Perez is the type of persistent head case that Dave Duncan has not yet been able to fix. He’s more apt to turn your Jon Garlands into Mark Buehrles than your Kip Wells into…other people.

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Sep 6, 2009 2:02 AM EDT reply actions  

Never really understood why people call Ollie a headcase

he’s just not that good. Not good=headcase? Or am I forgetting something he did to get that label.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 6, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

He's got talent.

Headcases just can’t put it together.

by BobbyV_Incognito on Sep 6, 2009 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

He's got good movement and life to his pitches

but he has no control, that doesn’t seem to be a mental problem to me. He’s a pitcher with poor control

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 7, 2009 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

We've seen him start out well, and then

fall apart enough times for me to suspect there’s some mental aspect to his problems. I don’t think his control would ever be great, but if he got his shit together, he’d at least be good enough to overcome the wildness.

by BobbyV_Incognito on Sep 7, 2009 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

the most common reason i've seen is that

people attribute his lack of control to an inability to mentally focus, or something like that. Always seemed to be as good an explanation as any

"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage

by blueandorange4life on Sep 6, 2009 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Seems like a bullshit one to me

Just another excuse for lack of talent.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Sep 7, 2009 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

There's more too it than that

He’s just so flamboyant. His body language is all over the place, he’s always doing strange mechanical tinkerings, he says things about how walking a million guys in a start is okay, even his approach to hitting is strange for a pitcher. It does seem like he’s only so talented and in terms of results, and this is the big hindrance. It may actually be that he’s a perfectly balanced and stable person. But at the very least, his personality on the field does seem a bit peculiar. Plus he’s a lefty, so we have to look for was to make him seem extra mercurial.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Sep 7, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wildly fluctuating peripheral stats despite similar velocity and movement on his pitches.

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Sep 7, 2009 2:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

skip the pitching coach pitch

hire Duncan as manager. if not him, the Kid

Go Mizzou.

by BuckyFox on Sep 13, 2009 1:16 PM EDT reply actions  

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