Pitching
Hey guys, this is Brandon C. a writer for SB Nation's Yankees Blog Pinstripe Alley.
Not sure I understand why the Mets aren't literally begging for starting pitching right now? They played the wait and hope for price to go down card on John Lackey and we all know how that worked out....they signed Jason Bay, which was a great idea and move and all, but couldn't they sign Lackey first and then see if they had enough left for Bay? Sure Chapman, Washburn, Piniero, etc are still available, but will they even help much? How about Jason Marquis, even if he isn't great he is one hell of an innings eater.
The Mets have a good enough lineup right now, but do they really need Molina? They have Santos, Thole, and the few catchers they signed already (Blanco, Coste, etc?) why need more?
Also, how do you guys feel about Minaya and Manuel? Why are they still in charge? Sorry if I represent the typical non-Mets fan, but I really want to know how you guys feel
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it was probably going to be lackey or bay, not both. it’s doubtful this organization dumps out 160 million total for two guys on the wrong side of thirty. i’m glad they went with bay, as we need some hitting pretty badly and hopefully citifield can mask the pitching deficiencies. i’d love to have a strong number 2 behind santana, but outside of lackey there aren’t really many great options for that. i don’t mind the mets waiting out the lower tier starting pitchers until their price drops a bit.
santos, coste, and blanco are all pretty much backup catchers. everyone’s high on thole, but he’s still young and he’ll spend most of his time at AAA this year.
i despise jerry manuel, omar mianya, and the wilpon family. the organization could use change from the top down, but for now we’ll have to stick with what we’re dealt.
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
Citifield really can't mask anyones pitching defencies
it can hide it from their end of the year statline, but it won’t help them when it comes to actually winning. Since opposing pitchers will get the same benefits from citi. So maybe some of Ollie’s homers won’t leave in Citi, but neither will the opposing teams pitcher, so really we’re not getting any more help from Citi than we would any other stadium.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
if ollie's homers
don’t leave citi, that means the park is masking his pitching deficiencies, more so than lets say yankee stadium would. just because opponent pitchers would benefit as well doesn’t negate our benefit. we can get buy with a substandard staff easier than the yankees or texas rangers is what i’m saying.
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
Yeah but what I mean is that doesn't help you one way or another
because it’s going to mask the defiencies of any pitcher who comes into your park too. So when we’re playing a game and Ollie’s balls aren’t leaving, if he’s facing an equally crappy pitcher there balls aren’t going to leave either, so overall you’re not any better or worse off than you would be in another park. All it changes is their statline over the year it doesn’t make it any easier or harder to win with them. We really aren’t getting by any better with a substandard staff because if Ollie throws a substandard game in our stadium, and the opposing pitcher throws a better one, we’ll still lose, his line may not look as awful at the end of the game as it would in the Yankees stadium or in Texas’s stadium but the end result is the same.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
Would it be an exception if their crappy pitcher was a groundballer,
since ours is a crappy flyballer?
by SeanSchirmer on Jan 4, 2010 11:17 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah I suppose
but with Bay and Frenchy manning 2/3s of that huge outfield, and Beltran coming back from knee problems, im not sure how much it will help.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
actually
the real homefield advantage of citi is the massive and distinct OF. Opposing teams OF’s will come into Citi without a real feel for all of the nooks and crannies. Our OFs should be comfortable in it’s confines while opposing OFs in theory should struggle with balls at the wall and the extra ground to cover.
Most of us are cognizant of the fact that this team will likely not be a powerhouse next year
Bay was a nice addition, although probably for one or two years too many. I agree with Rey that there was no way we were shelling out that much money for Lackey and Bay, and I think we filled the greater immediate need with the left fielder. The rotation does have a number of question marks, but we’re not sure how many genuine holes it has because of inconsistency of Perez and Maine. Our infield defense should be better with Reyes back, and hopefully Wright bounces back from a sub par year in the field (and with the bat). If they do it will greatly benefit the pitching staff. While I’m not a fan of Molina (i’d rather they just sign Torrealba if we can get past the previous difficulties between the two parties), we need somebody who’s a starting caliber catcher and Thole could use another year of AAA ball to really get ready, don’t want to rush him like we have with other players in the past. I wouldn’t mind Pinero or Sheets, although both are currently asking for more than they’re worth. More than anything I’d have liked to see them go after a 2b this offseason and really actively try to move Castillo, as I think 2b defense has been a major issue which has negatively impacted our pitching staff, this however is wishful thinking at best.
Manuel and Minaya have been awful, with Minaya constantly misreading the market on players and overpaying or waiting too long to get into the game for big name players. Manuel doesn’t seem to even understand basic baseball concepts at times. The FO has been infuriating for the past few years, as have the third base and hitting coaches.
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 1, 2010 10:30 PM EST reply actions
Hmm...In my opinion,
Asides for John Lackey, there really weren’t any “difference making” pitchers on the FA market this off-season. Lackey was going to get paid more than he was actually worth, so that accounts for some hesitation there on everyone’s part, but ultimately he signed with Boston. So, without that one ‘major’ pitcher on the market, a lot more thinking and analysis needs to be done on what other FA pitchers are available, how good they’d fit, what pitchers might possible be available via trade, how good they’d fit, what we might need to give up, and if those costs are worth what we get back in return…I’d much rather have Minaya being hesitant and playing it safe than him being reactionary and signing anyone to bad deals that are either giving them too much money, or too much time.
As for my personal feelings, I don’t like Jerry Manuel as a coach. Though we lost plenty of games last season because of a lack of a decent team due to injuries, there are quite a few instances I can remember losing because of Jerry going to the bullpen too early, or too late, or bringing in questionable replacements (pitchers, pinch hitters, or out/infielders). Omar Minaya, I’ve soured on. Earlier in his tenure, it did seem like everything he touched turned to gold, and I bought into that. Around 2007, though, it seems like he began “buying into his own hype”, and that’s when things seemingly started heading downhill. He’s also been very reactionary- addressing the biggest problems of the previous season, without necessarily looking ahead at problems that could be- in his signings, and an unskilled GM. What I mean by that is that it doesn’t take much ability to take the money your bosses give you, and sign the biggest free agents by flashing them more money than everyone else. He’s made a few very questionable trades that, in theory, lost us the division in 2007 and 2008 (Brian Bannister, for example, could have given us 1 more win in 2007 and 2008 that, say, Brian Lawrence, or Brandon Knight didn’t give us). So, that’s not cool.
As for why they’re still in charge? I guess they both needed to be given the benefit of the doubt, for 2009. It was a horrible season, but it was marked with record-setting injuries and all that. Like I said earlier, Jerry lost a bunch of games, I think, because of his managerial decisions, but you need to give him the benefit of the doubt- would he have won more games with a less injured team? Omar, same thing- would he have done things a bit different at last year’s off-season, and up to the trade deadline, if the team was in better contention? Should the team start off, or end, poorly in 2010, I have the feeling that both will be axed. If they aren’t fired early, neither will be given further extensions, or new contracts, at the least, anyway…
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 1, 2010 10:40 PM EST reply actions
Santana and the rest,
Santana 18 wins, Pelfrey 11wins, Ollie P. 11 wins ( man, I hope,) Maine 11 wins, Niese
11wins, (Misch, Nieve, Holt (maybe), Escobar, Stokes, Green, and one more pitcher (WHO—-?) Meche, Dempster, Wood, Sheets, Piniero, 20 wins for the group; K-Rod, Feliciano, Parnell, Igarashi, 12 wins; grand total: 94wins.
Mets: 94 – 68
so is this to suggest we get one of Meche, Dempster, Wood, Sheets or Pinero to add to the guys we already have?
Any of these guys would be a decent pickup i suppose (although Meche is overpriced and Pinero and Sheets currently want way more than they’re worth). I’m not sure we see 11 wins out of Niese though if any of these guys join and take his spot in the rotation (I assume that was what you were getting at with the addition of the extra starter) regardless I’d love to see 94-68 but i find that outcome somewhat unlikely next season. With one of those guys added though I could see us in the mid 80s win total with some room to raise the ceiling if we go with Pinero or Sheets who have a bit more upside.
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 2, 2010 12:16 AM EST up reply actions
I really think I have more faith in Niese getting to 11 wins, or some arbitrary number w/e
than Maine. I really think Niese has a chance to be an average starting pitcher next season if he comes back healthy, and being average is good enough to be the #2 in our rotation, and I have serious doubts about whether Maine can stay healthy and effective for an entire season.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
Meche
is better than Pineiro.
Lead, follow, or get out of the way
His contract isn't.
Odds are, Piniero will get a Marquis-like contract, maybe a little more money, which isn’t all that bad overall.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 5, 2010 8:11 AM EST up reply actions
I agree somewhat
I also think we need a starter or 2, but I do not think we had to go for lackey. I would rather see a smaller contract on a solid #3 starter. I think we may have gotten some help in the pen with Escobar andI am curious to see this Evert kid in the spring, he seemed to put some decent minor league numbers up, but we all know that doesn’t always translate to majors.
As far as Catching, I am as confused as you are, why we signed both Coste and Blanco I have no idea 1 of the 2 would have been fine. I do think we can benefit from getting Molina as a proven starter that can swing the bat
my guess is Coste goes to AAA to mentor Thole
and Blanco backs up whoever we bring in as our starting catcher. Thats my guess as to the logic, but don’t hold me to it if it doesnt work out that way. Just the best sense i can make out of it.
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 2, 2010 12:18 AM EST up reply actions
They should've
either kept Schneider (not one of my faves, but…) or signed Zaun. Then Omar could’ve signed Blanco to compete with Santos. Coste was a great story, but he’s an a-hole if he still fantasizes about Philly. I fail to see how he could mentor Thole properly. Then, again, why does Omar sign minor lg. free-agents, and place them on the 40 man ? Everts, Figgy and Coste should be NRPs, and they wasted a space on Bowman. They should have promoted Bostick, but he’s gonzo. No, Keith’s, it’s hard to understand Omar’s logic with catchers. Is Robinson Cancel holding out for too much ?
Lead, follow, or get out of the way
i would have liked Zaun too personally but thats not how it worked out
Given what they have, this is just how i’m guessing they’re going to play it. I’m not saying there was a thought process getting here, just that this will likely be the thought process moving forward.
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 5, 2010 10:56 AM EST up reply actions
coste
definitely should be in AAA with thole. that leaves blanco and santos to fight for the backup job. although i can see the mets carrying three catchers next year. i dont know why, i just can.
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
Probably because
they’ve insisted on doing it for multiple years, for reasons unknown to anyone.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
You know, while pitching is the topic, anyone think that Kelvim Escobar can be the rotation dark horse?
He’s coming off of a long injury, and only pitched 5 innings last season, but traditionally, he is a starter. We’ve all penciled him in the bullpen, but what are the odds that, at some point (either immediately after Spring Training, or at some point later in the season) he gets transferred back into the rotation. Assuming that he’s effective once more, as a pitcher- be if in the bullpen or elsewhere- he’s had a decent career starting, putting up alright numbers and all. God knows, our rotation is thin…
Just a thought for mulling.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 2, 2010 2:30 PM EST reply actions
First of all... get out of here you damn Yankees fan
(kidding :p )
I think Minaya definitely needs to (and will) sign a starter… probably Pineiro
I don’t think we should get Molina (about 2 Mets fans actually want Molina)
Minaya does a lot of stupid stuff (Putz trade, Perez contract last year are two prime examples) but he seems willing to do what he needs to do to improve the team (Beltran, Delgado, Wagner, K-Rod, Santana, Bay). Manuel gets ridiculous. He really is a poor manager. His strategies make zero sense (bunt, bunt, bunt, bunt, bunt, never bring in K-Rod in a non-save situation, etc) and he really never acts serious, even when the team was mired in futility last year he was cracking jokes at postgame press conferences and stuff.
A "Zeile" for avoiding outs
My main problem with Manuel
is that he lost the team last year. If the manager’s not responsible for getting players to correctly execute fundamentals, who is? And if a manager can’t do that, then he needs to find other work. It’s not the only element of the job description, but it is a prerequisite.
by SeanSchirmer on Jan 4, 2010 11:42 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
"Also, how do you guys feel about Minaya and Manuel? Why are they still in charge?"
welcome to my world
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
Yeah, really....
it’s not like we have powers to force a change.
all we can do is :

you know what I'm sayin' ?
Noah Lowry
as good as any coming back from injury types???? if he’s healthy that’s a good enough signing in light of awaful pitiching situation for the Mets.
"Also, how do you guys feel about Minaya and Manuel? Why are they still in charge?"
Minaya’s inability to surround the club’s stars with average or slightly below average regulars cost the team the division in 2007 and 2008. The stunt-casting of Julio Franco as the backup 1bman is exactly the kind of ignorant move Minaya makes around the edges that costs the club dearly. It’s the complete incompetence in this regard—the indifference to absolutely crucial marginal wins—that’s a firing offense, imo. Never mind the Perez contract debacle, bringing Jose Lima to the team when at least a hundred better pitchers were out there, bringing back players he got lucky with until they were certain to fail, signing players who were bound to be mediocre at best to contracts with AAVs of $5+ million dollars, keeping Razor Shines as 3b coach when he was obviously incompetent, being unaware that his star, $23m/year pitcher had been likely pitching through an injury even when it was clear the team was no longer in contention, and on and on. The simple, obvious, repeated failure to get the best out of a brilliant core of stars betrays a blatant and unforgiveable ineptitude. No sane owner would have kept a GM around whose weaknesses clearly cost the team the division two years in a row. The Mets have the means and the players—properly constructed, their “collapses” in 2007 and 2008 should have meant they only won the division by five games, not lost it by one. The same is true with the manager. It may be bad luck, but I can’t believe you give a manager the benefit of the doubt after the team collapses one year, then can’t even execute fundamentals the next.
by SeanSchirmer on Jan 4, 2010 12:10 PM EST reply actions 1 recs

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