Mets Get Gary Matthews Jr. From Angels
by Eric Simon on Jan 22, 2010 10:38 AM EST
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PrintPer Jon Heyman, the Mets are on the verge of acquiring outfielder Gary Matthews Jr. from the Angels. Details to follow.
10:54am: Heyman said on WFAN that the Angels will kick in something like $20 million and that Luis Castillo is not involved in the deal. Matthews is owed $11 million in 2010 and $12 million in 2011 and has been basically useless for the last three years with Los Angeles.
11:52am: Jerry Crasnick tweets:
Not sure who the Angels are getting back for Matthews, but I was told it's a "low salaried pitcher'' off the big league roster.
Speculation on the internets suggests that it's Brian Stokes, but that's little more than dart-throwing.
12:02pm: Jon Morosi of FOX Sports tweets that it is (he hears) Brian Stokes, who is a cult hero at Amazin' Avenue but not a particularly notable pitcher.
12:22pm: Looks like a done deal, per Jon Heyman. Mets send Brian Stokes to the Angels for Gary Matthews Jr. and $21.5 million of the $23.5 million owed to GMJ over the next two seasons. One quick note: while GMJ was actually below replacement (per FanGraphs) the past two seasons, he did so as a rightfielder. His value would be higher -- perhaps into the black -- as a center fielder. So that's something. At all events, this is hardly a terrible trade, it just isn't a particularly good one, either.
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Wow
They never cease to amaze, do they? I wonder if we included F-Mart.
Welcome back, I guess.
This week was going along so well . . .
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jan 22, 2010 10:46 AM EST reply actions
Time to revise,
your long awaited AAOP
The causative relationship is that talent (plus luck) leads to wins. And that talent (plus service time) leads to payrolls.
Hey, you can't rush genius.
My AAOP will crush.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jan 22, 2010 10:50 AM EST up reply actions
I'll reserve total judgment until hearing the terms
But gut reaction is ‘you gotta be sh*tting me’
by James Kannengieser on Jan 22, 2010 10:47 AM EST reply actions
...
G-Mat the past three seasons -1.1 WAR, CHONE projection of -.1 WAR.
Pagan the past three seasons 3.5 WAR, CHONE projection of 1.5 WAR.
Remember that catch Gary had tho. Touchdown Mets.
The causative relationship is that talent (plus luck) leads to wins. And that talent (plus service time) leads to payrolls.
by Sokojoe on Jan 22, 2010 10:47 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
I dont think he actually goes by G-Mat
My comment was tongue-in-cheek.
The causative relationship is that talent (plus luck) leads to wins. And that talent (plus service time) leads to payrolls.
Heyman just said on WFAN
Angels to pay about $20 million of his salary …. Castillo not part of deal.
3.5 million or so for two years not bad for a fourth outfielder, but alot more has to be done.
2nd time around could be a charm….
If they're paying that much in salary...
I’m really worried as to who the Mets traded for him …. Pagan?
I'm going to stop reading and go do something else right now
because speculation like this could seriously give me a heart attack.
and....
Omar’s gone and one-upped Sabean. Well played.
and ....
Dayton Moore as well. Gary Matthews Jr. makes Rick Ankiel look like Mickey Mantle. The only way having Matthews on a 25 man roster makes any sense to me is if he s actually paying the Mets in a fantasy camp situation and the Mets use the profits to buy him the steroids that made him slightly above average for 2 years … 4 years ago.
by lord charles on Jan 22, 2010 11:21 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Rick Ankiel would have made me happier
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
So . . .
our regular starting outfield may well feature two of the least valuable outfielders in all of baseball for the last two seasons. I’m terrified to hear the details of this trade.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jan 22, 2010 11:09 AM EST reply actions
If this doesn't include Castillo
and it seems not to, it is just beyond belief. Omar, you have excelled yourself in dumb.
Slow down on the hammering.
There has to be more to this deal. With the relatively better moves made this offseason, it just doesn’t make sense to acquire a pile of garbage like GMJr. They’ve got to be flipping him to some other team (Reds for pitching) here, since Pagan is way younger and way better.
If not and GMJr is our opening day center fielder while Pagan rides the pine, then we’ve basically swapped Bengie Molina for GMJr for epic shit moves of the offseason and Omar should be burned in effigy before every home game.
by Jamesir Bensonmum on Jan 22, 2010 11:24 AM EST reply actions
F**** NO!
The Angels showed interest in reliever Brain Socks! but it’s not known if he’s part of the deal. The clubs were discussing minor leaguers.
Its the Apocalypse
If Brain Socks is involved…
Lets really really hope theres another trade feeding off of this one but who (else) would be willing to part with anything of value for Matthews? I mean jeez hes not even worth the 3mill we’ll be paying him for the next 2 years
Pagan should still start when Beltran is out. Knowing how Omar works, that won’t be the case.
Bay, Matthews, Frenchy in the outfield. Oh Boy. WS Champs 2010!
Completely ridiculous if there is no part 2 to this deal...
some people are speculating on another deal… I’m not holding my breath.
by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Jan 22, 2010 11:27 AM EST reply actions
me neither
Omar has reached a new low, if that is even possible.
by BigBoyJacobs on Jan 22, 2010 11:30 AM EST up reply actions
Epic Fail
This was a prime opportunity to ship Castillo away. I really wonder why he was not included. Would the Angels really rather pay $20 million than take Castillo on their team? He wouldn’t be a horrible replacement when the inevitable Howie Kendrick injury happens. That must mean Omar didn’t want to part with Castillo. So we just got a shitty OF’er and held onto our shitty 2B. Sigh.
Would we really rather pay the $20 million the Angels
gave us and have to get another 2B or just pay the $12 million remaining to Castillo.
The causative relationship is that talent (plus luck) leads to wins. And that talent (plus service time) leads to payrolls.
Maybe, but Seattle does'nt have a 20 million starter, ; 11, million closer
and 20 million cf, whose on the sidelines….so payroll has something to do with all moves GMs make.
The $20 mil was referencing the money
than angels gave us, not the cost of a second basemen. CT asked if the Angels would rather pay 20 than take Castillo, but I think the point is moot since the Mets wouldn’t do this Gary trade for Castillo straight up and shouldnt since it would increase the payroll by about 10 mil over two years and also the cost of a second baseman.
The causative relationship is that talent (plus luck) leads to wins. And that talent (plus service time) leads to payrolls.
At least....
….if he can remember how to hit, he’s easily worth 3 mil. Let’s see what it cost us. He’s an amazing CF glove.
We weren't going to get....
….Sizemore at this point in the season. We need a CF. Matthews at 3 mil isn’t that bad considering the timing.
He has been worth less than replacement level the last two years
and has had UZR under -9 for three straight years. Him taking playing time away from Pagan is not good. And we need a CF for a month or two, not a full season, Pagan would fill that void cheaply
Travis Hafner is made of gold
by Super Mario on Jan 22, 2010 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
I wouldn't be so sure....
…that it will just be a month or 2. A veteran CF for a little cash and a middle reliever is really not a big deal for a team like the Mets.
not when that veteran CF is worse than pretty much everyone on our roster.
John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.
If he continues that way....
…he will be benched. It will have cost us nothing.
Better that than...
…..interrupting Fmarts development and rushing him to the majors. Pagan can get hurt too you know?
but that's not the point.
Gary Matthews Jr. is literally worth less than nothing. You can sign a minor leaguer off the scarp heap for peanuts that produces at a replacement level, which GMJ has not done for either of the last two years. And he’s getting older, and worse.
John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.
Right.....
…because players are robots and they play the same every season in every context. Try watching the game once in a while through a TV or at the stadium instead of through your BP subscription. Players bounce back.
Please tell me this comment is a joke.
Even it it’s not, it’s laughable.
We've got ourselves a ball club, the Mets of New York town!
by kingcritical on Jan 22, 2010 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
It's not ideal....
….but it isn’t the end of the world. The downside is some C grade relief pitcher. Irrelevant for a team like the Mets. If we’re in the playoff race, that guy wouldn’t have pitched anyway. We will acquire a B or A level RP.
In essence...
… we’ve just paid 2 million and a cheapish reliever for an average-at-absolute-reaches-of-the-imagination-best CF. It’s the Cora deal, but with a talent cost.
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Jan 22, 2010 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
Not when they are 35.
- Rivers McCown, From Mom's Basement | Twitter
by riversmccown on Jan 22, 2010 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
For 3 mil....
…in late January, he doesn’t need to be Willie Mays. A .750 OPS with good defense would be fine. If he does the same offensively as last year, and provides a good glove, this will potentially be an important acquisition.
Yeah, but part of the problem with
is the luxury tax. For LT purposes, as far as I know, the Mets are taking on the AAV of Matthews current contract, regardless of how much they’re paying him. That moves their LT calculated payroll up towards $140 million, where getting within $10 million of the threshold (essentially the self imposed salary cap the organization has seemed to have under the Wilpons) is within the realm of possibility.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 12:08 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Fair point...
…if this is true. I doubt we ever planned to break that threshold, but it’s a “cost”, I’ll give you that.
I wouldn't mind if they broke it
First time violation is usually not a huge hit, though I forget if they’ve ever broken it before. The problem is the Wilpons won’t let payroll get that high, so this limits spending, even if they want to take one some kind of salary dump trade mid-season. They’re still not that close so its not a huge deal, but they’re a lot closer than they were yesterday.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 12:22 PM EST up reply actions
This will have absolutely no impact....
….on a mid-year acquisition if it is required. Absolutely none.
If they don't sign Ben Sheets
And add another $5-10 million contract, then maybe you’re right. If they do, it most certainly could.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 12:41 PM EST up reply actions
You want to give Sheets....
…..5-10 mil, and you’re arguing that we need to save money? Sheets will be lucky to throw 75 innings this season.
I'm going to assume you spoke directly to his doctors and they said this
or you at least read an article suggesting this?
"Three home teams advance, and the fuckin' Jets" - Rex Ryan
Sheets has the potential to be worth $5-10 mil
or much more. GM Jr. should actually pay major leauge teams to be on their roster.
Yup
Sheets could easily be worth two wins in 75 innings, and I’d like to see you provide some evidence that he’s “likely” to throw just 75 innings. He’s coming off flexor tendon surgery. Its hardly a huge deal in baseball terms, and in the three years prior he threw at least 100 innings each year and at least 140 innings in three of the years. Plus any deal will be incentive based, so he’ll only make the high end if he performs.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
Last four years that is, not three
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
He's asking 7.5 million.
Take a look around the league and see what other teams are getting for 7.5.
Screw the incentives at that price. I’d like to see him break EVEN on that.
You still haven't provided any viable evidence for this
Sheets was worth more than 7.5 million in each of 2006-2008, and again, its flexor tendon surgery, the same surgery Billy Wagner and others have made very successful recent recoveries from, and all the reports from his throwing session were positive.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
Velocity was at 91......
…..and he touched 93. Solid, but it’s not the same Ben Sheets. ANY elbow surgery on a pitcher is a massive risk.
Matthews costs 2 mil over 2 years. Sheets costs 7.5 for 1.
I consider GMJ zero risk. Sheets is meaningful risk. Greater chance for meaningful return from Sheets, I agree. But I don’t like that risk, and GMJ costs almost nothing. (1 mil per year. The 6th infielder makes that on some teams.)
Not the same Sheets
who averaged 92.8 mph fastball in 2007 and 2008?
"Three home teams advance, and the fuckin' Jets" - Rex Ryan
Yeah, the 6th infielder makes millions on teams like the Mets
Ben Sheets avg fastball velo for his career is 92.7, and this is January, well before the regular season or ST start for that matter. Seems pretty likely he’ll get close to his career average FB to me.
Its a question of opportunity cost, not straight cost. There were much better opportunities to acquire similar (and better) players for less straight cost than GMJ. There are no similar opportunities for Sheets, the risk of whom can be somewhat offset by having Jonathon Niese and possibly Nelson Figueroa and/or Fernando Nieve in Triple-A. High upside risk is actually a GOOD decision for the Mets in terms of handling SP right now because of their minor league depth at the position, assuming Figgy/Nieve can clear waivers.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 1:01 PM EST up reply actions
Pitcher Confidence
Other than the obvious (Johan Santana), of the following (in alphabetical order), which Mets pitcher are you most confident in as he walks to the mound in the first inning: (a) Figueroa (b) Maine © Niese (d) Nieve (e) Pelfrey (f) Perez
And now
Our 6th OF will! Mazel tovs all around, y’all!
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Jan 22, 2010 11:29 PM EST up reply actions
You just love spouting tripe with no evidence, don't you
John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.
Let's look around the league and see
what other teams are getting for 4 mill and a reliever
Travis Hafner is made of gold
by Super Mario on Jan 22, 2010 12:56 PM EST up reply actions
It's 2 mil....
….for 2 years. But don’t let actual facts get in the way of your rhetoric.
Actual facts =
He was worth NEGATIVE money for the last two years. He could literally be paid nothing and still not be worth it, because someone else would be worth it. And I will still stand by that statement with 2 mill
Travis Hafner is made of gold
I don't think this is correct.
Reading some article on-line summarizing the Basic Agreement, I saw this:
When cash is included in a deal, how does it affect the luxury tax payroll?
Cash considerations are added to the luxury tax payroll of the team paying them in the year in which they are paid. The receiving team then has the same amount subtracted from its club payroll for the same season.
So, I think this really is only $1m per year added on the Mets side of the calculation.
by MangoMetsFan on Jan 22, 2010 12:50 PM EST up reply actions
Interesting
That wasn’t my understanding just from recalling things I’ve read in the past, but I didn’t go digging this time so I could be wrong
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
Thank you.
Of course, this won’t stop people from making things up. It will barely slow them down.
You probably shouldn't be lobbing that sort o' stone...
… Mr. Glass-House with 75-innings of wallpaper.
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Jan 22, 2010 11:31 PM EST up reply actions
What is a TV? Is that the thing that flickers so shiny?
I only know of Excel sheets on my computer. They seem to say that a player who has been bad for three years and is now 35 don’t tend to become suddenly better.
Travis Hafner is made of gold
by Super Mario on Jan 22, 2010 12:54 PM EST up reply actions
"Cheap Pticher" =
Someone who would have barely pitched if we are playing meaningful baseball in August.
if Gary Matthews is playing this season AT ALL
we’re not playing meaningful baseball in August.
John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.
by squid92 on Jan 22, 2010 11:59 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
The argument to save 2 mil for....
….2 years of a back up veteran CF, is to pay 7.5 mil to a guy coming off elbow surgery, who didn’t pitch at all in 2009.
Now I’ve heard everything. Have fun “Mets fans”.
No, the argument is to spend less than $2 million on a better backup CF
And then to spend $7.5 million on a guy with huge upside whose risk can be offset by the minor league depth already in place.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
So let's put Gabe Gross....
….in CF in your fantasy land baseball league. Gabe F-ing Gross and Eric Byrnes are your answer to us paying GMJ 1 mil per year for 2 years.
If there is a team in baseball that is willing to play laughing stock defense, and needs to try to go from 62 to 62.5 wins at zero cost, you might be the right man for that job.
You know that Matthews Jr. is a laughing stock defensively
and Gross and Byrnes are at the very least average.
"Three home teams advance, and the fuckin' Jets" - Rex Ryan
Matthews Jr.'s hasn't played center full time since 2007
where his UZR was -12.3. He’s a real good fielder ain’t he?
"Three home teams advance, and the fuckin' Jets" - Rex Ryan
So how do you account him sucking in 2008 and 2009
with UZR totals of -9.3 and -14.5. Was he injured all three seasons? If so, why would he all of a sudden be healthy now?
"Three home teams advance, and the fuckin' Jets" - Rex Ryan
He had surgery...
….this offseason.
Nonetheless, it’s costing us 1 mil per to find out.
Yup, but Eric Byrnes
Who had UZR’s of 10.3 and -3.7 over that time and was also injured has been “horrendous”.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 1:50 PM EST up reply actions
Thank you for repeating me.
Now we’ve established that Byrnes sucks and has no place on a baseball field. That’s why he’s at home.
If he could play CF like GMJ can when he’s healthy, the Dbacks could’ve gotten an RP and 1 mil for him.
What?? GMJ
with UZR totals of -9.3 and -14.5. Was he injured all three seasons? If so, why would he all of a sudden be healthy now?
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 1:57 PM EST up reply actions
Gabe Gross....
…who also OPS-ed LESS than GMJ, who was injured.
Does that mean you're leaving?
I can’t risk being called a moron or a Mets fan again!
Travis Hafner is made of gold
This is part of the larger endemic arguement
that we keep overspending on players that add very little potential value the team. 2 mil for cora, 5 mil for francoeur, 2 mil for matthews. Its not that these players are useless, but similar talent could have been acquired for cheaper in each case. By saving a few million on these sort of backup players, we could spend more on filling the vital gaps in our team.
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 22, 2010 1:35 PM EST up reply actions
This
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
Franceour OPS-ed 900 with the Mets....
…..5 mil, 1 year.
Factor in a premium for no length on the contract, and that’s about right. I hate Franceour, but at 26 years old, I’ll take this contract.
Yeah but a team with our payroll
and holes, shouldn’t be spending 5 million on guys who are complete question marks, and expecting them to hold down a starting job.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
Right,
because Manny Ramirez was available for 5 mil too, right?
Welcome
Our friendly neighborhood contrarian
by James Kannengieser on Jan 22, 2010 2:05 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, I'm kind of done. It's exhausting.
“No, you’re not! It’s ENLIVENING!”
-MetsFanX
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Jan 22, 2010 11:34 PM EST up reply actions
He OPS'ed .900 in
half a season, but showed no change in the approach that made him one of the worst players in baseball the previous 2 seasons. He’s overpaid, but we could have done a lot worse.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 22, 2010 1:45 PM EST up reply actions
I wouldn't call an .836 OPS a 900 OPS
It’s a pretty big difference.
"Three home teams advance, and the fuckin' Jets" - Rex Ryan
OPSing half a season at 900 is nice
but until he shows me he can do it a full season, I’m not convinced. Not saying he can’t do it, but I need to see more than half a good season to believe he’s worth 5 mil.
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 22, 2010 1:47 PM EST up reply actions
If he does it for a full season, he'll be worth...
….over 15 million per year. That’s the going rate for guys who OPS 900 for a full season.
We got him at 26 years old for 5 mil, for only 1 year commitment.
Francoeur has NEVER OPSed .900 in his career.
He highest for a full season is .884 in his flukey 2005 and then .782 in 2007
"Three home teams advance, and the fuckin' Jets" - Rex Ryan
Francoeur's never OPSed .900.
Only topped 800 once, in his rookie year. Since then, it’s been .742, .782, .653, .732. I am not a betting man, but I would bet real, actual money that he doesn’t even come close to .900 this year.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 22, 2010 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
By this logic the one year commitment actualy makes it worse for me
if we were investing in him as a young piece they think can turn around and put up those kinds of numbers, they should have signed him to a few years, at a lower cost per year. This way if he does somehow surprise us all and become this 900 OPSing outfielder that some people think he could be, we’re going to have to re-sign him for much more after this year if we want him back. Since they gave him one year they more likely believe he’s a stopgap until something better comes along (I agree with this mode of thought) in which case 5 million is probably too much.
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 22, 2010 1:53 PM EST up reply actions
Even at .800 OPS...
….he’s worth 5 mil per.
Two things
First, he probably tops out at .775, and with mediocre defense, he’ll be worth around $5 million, that’s if everything goes well.
Second, why do people still use OPS when wRC+, wOBA and EqA are all freely available?
"Three home teams advance, and the fuckin' Jets" - Rex Ryan
I was just responding in the fashion the question was originally posed
i rarely use OPS
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 22, 2010 1:59 PM EST up reply actions
Oh I know
That was directed at MetsFanX. I responded to him using OPS as well.
"Three home teams advance, and the fuckin' Jets" - Rex Ryan
I think this is what all those lurkers were referring to
when they said they don’t dare post if they’re not up to speed on the latest wobas and what-have-yous.
I expect you just wanted to poke at this annoying guy, but still.
Its one thing to post a dissenting argument
its another to be unwilling to listen.
I differ on oppinions from the groupthink here on many issues that annoy gina and when I see them I say something. Someone responds, and I either change my view, or present new facts that help support my argument.
Even if I dont agree in the end you maintain civility and respect others opinion.
yeah once he resorted to name calling
snyde remarks, and a refusal to try to logically explain his arguments, we lost patience with him rather quickly
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 22, 2010 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, I don't object to the argument
He’s an idiot. I was referring specifically to the “why do people still use OPS …”
try the "up" link
Next to “reply” and “actions” is a handy little link that takes you to the comment being replied to.
That's why there's the "up" button
But yeah, I agree with your original point. It’s probably intimidating a bit for someone who just learned what OPS was a few months ago to hear someone say it’s useless compared to wOBA or whatever.
"Three home teams advance, and the fuckin' Jets" - Rex Ryan
If he had used OPS early on
before he decided to go off the rails, we’d have been more likely to suggest another stat. When they troll and use bad stats, we’re more likely to just get annoyed
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 22, 2010 3:07 PM EST up reply actions
yea
Bobby Abreau and Matsui got $5 million a yr Franceour is in that league
I wouldn't put Francoeur in their league
Depite their advanced age, they’re probably a but more valuable:
Abreu: .402 Career OBP, 14.9% BB
Matsui: .370 OBP, 10.9% BB
Frenchy: .307 OBP, 4.7% BB
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 22, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
I took it to mean they were
in the same league, value-wise.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 22, 2010 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
I'd love to put Francoeur in their league.
The AMERICAN League.
I haven't seen him play on a regular basis.
UZR and Total Zone both don’t seem to care for his defense the last few years, particularly last season (-24.6 in OF by UZR; -19 by TZ). Hasn’t he been somewhat dogged by injuries?
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jan 22, 2010 11:45 AM EST up reply actions
How can Omar be that stupid? Just how is it possible?
You know Matthews is taking Beltran’s place while Pagan gives Frenchy the occasional day off.
put me out of my misery
I’m not even sure i can put together a coherent comment after reading this. I’m so close to throwing away a life of fandom and just following the dodgers. The Mets have become the Isiah Thomas Knicks, just too embarrassing to root for anymore.
Oh boy..
10:28am: The Mets will send a “low-salaried pitcher” off the big league roster to the Angels, according to ESPN.com’s Jerry Crasnick, via Twitter.
Way to deal from an area of strength there Omar… I say it’s Figgy.
By big league roster do they mean John Maine?
Nah, couldn’t be…ugh. Maine for Matthews? nah, couldn’t be…
Asking a General Manager to slim down his budget is like asking an alcoholic to blow up a distillery.
by scott from peekskill on Jan 22, 2010 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
$10 says its Niese or Maine or Pelf.
YAYAYAYAYAYAY
John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.
"low-salaried" pitchers on the big league roster
that Omar could consider trading: Egbert, Figgy, Kunz, A.Lopez, Marshall, Misch, Nieve, Stokes, Stoner. Any guesses? In any case, this look like a bad or horrible trade.
yeah,
paying $3.5MM for beyond replacement level player makes this a bad deal. Especially when there there replacement level CFs such as Sullivan and Reed available for minor league contracts. If the Mets however traded some pitcher of actual value, the deal is insane.
Wow and we were worried about our rotation
Who cares who the fifth pitcher is now. This team is really going nowhere if this is the best they can come up with. I say let Niese start to see what we have.
by aparkermarshall on Jan 22, 2010 11:44 AM EST reply actions
First real comment...
Wow this is awful.
by SheoawnnGreen23 on Jan 22, 2010 11:46 AM EST reply actions
It is a sad state of affairs...
when the acquisition of Gary Matthews Jr. means that Jeff Francouer should probably hit 6th in your lineup.
John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.
by squid92 on Jan 22, 2010 11:49 AM EST reply actions 4 recs
I wish Dr. Cox was head of our medical staff
"Three home teams advance, and the fuckin' Jets" - Rex Ryan
don't we all
fictional doctors are better than Mets doctors any day. Then again Mets doctors might just be fictional to begin with, maybe thats the problem.
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 22, 2010 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
The bright side
is that it takes some of the pressure off of our other replacement level players making millions.
Last year, Gary Matthews Jr. had 358 PAs.
His WAR, in half a season’s worth of PAs, ranged from very bad (-0.8 Fangraphs WAR) to legendarily terrible (-1.8 Baseball Projection WAR). Let me restate that this was half a season. Has anyone in baseball ever been so monumentally bad extrapolated over a full season?
John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.
FMLFMLFML
"The one thing you don't want to do is hit a home run. That's a rally-killer." -Jeff Francoeur
by RangersandMets on Jan 22, 2010 11:57 AM EST reply actions
Makes sense.
By that I mean my reaction to hearing this news after years of bad personnel decisions and stupidity was “makes sense”.
Not that the move actually makes sense.
- Rivers McCown, From Mom's Basement | Twitter
Wow, just wow
I haven’t been this speechless in an AA thread since Luis Castillo dropped that popup.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 12:01 PM EST reply actions
MLBTR says the angels got stokes...
"The one thing you don't want to do is hit a home run. That's a rally-killer." -Jeff Francoeur
by RangersandMets on Jan 22, 2010 12:01 PM EST reply actions
Its worth mentioning that
Gary Mathews Jr. was worth about $3.8M last year according to Fangraphs. He is owed $24M and the Angels are covering the the $20M. The Mets are on the hook for the remaining $4M. That is $2M for the next three years. That is exchange for stokes is not that bad. My guess is that the Angels were going to cut him, but they dealt him to the Mets for a usefull piece.
So step off the ledge people.
Correction
That is $2M for the next two years
by Coolpapabell on Jan 22, 2010 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
Holy crap you are right. Ha!.
Why do they use perenthesis for negatives as well as the negative sign? That threw me off. I guess the go the parenthisis for dollar amounts much like any accountant with excell.
Still two million a year for a horrible back-up is not the end of the world.
by Coolpapabell on Jan 22, 2010 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
it's pretty bad...
when you figure that Omar’s gonna use him to start instead of Beltran…because he will.
John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.
Wow
I sure looked like a fool on that one.
Well, I think that as long as Mathews sits the bench, I will be fine with this deal. You have a back-up CF in the event Pagan gets hurt early on, and F-mart gets to stay in AAA to mature.
You are right though squid, he can’t be the starter.
by Coolpapabell on Jan 22, 2010 12:14 PM EST up reply actions
Omar's thinking here
Step one: He thinks, “Mathews Jr….hmm, I’ve heard of his dad!”
Step two: He thinks, “hey his dad was a good defensive outfielder, and we need a good defensive outfielder. I remember that home run he robbed a few seasons ago. He’s a great outfielder!”
Step three: “What? They are willing to pay all this salary? This is a steal!”
I'm much more cynical than you
I think it’s Jeffy. “We’re not selling many tickets. Hey, Gary Matthews, that’s a name that people who don’t pay much attention will recognize! This should put some suckers in the seats!”
This would only be a good deal...
If the Angels agreed to take Jerry Manuel as a throw in. Manuel’s negative WAR is higher than Mathews.
This is the problem
with letting Omar hang around another year. Even if it’s his last, he’s really going to screw this team for the next few years, while trying to win this year.
Oh wow, I'm really speechless.
The 2010 New York Mets: Maybe it's the Phillies' turn to have 95% of its roster on the DL
P.S. Rangers Suck! Flyers Swallow!
Good luck to Socks.
Hopefully he will find better scientific facilities out on the west coast as he continues to search for cures to various terminal illnesses.
If by some miracle, Wright, Reyes and Santana post 9 WAR each and we get to the WS, I can see this move to bite us in the a**.
When Socks pitches 3 scoreless innings in Game 7 against us.
But even with 3 Cy Youngs behind him, he will never get Marty Noble's vote for the HoF
Asking a General Manager to slim down his budget is like asking an alcoholic to blow up a distillery.
by scott from peekskill on Jan 22, 2010 1:19 PM EST up reply actions
Omar's theory on set-up men
seems to be, that if a guy pitches okay one year, then he’s not going to pitch well the next year, without fail. That is the entirety of his theory.
Meh
He really wasn’t that great this year. He got a little lucky but his components did not suggest a sub-4.00 ERA.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
He's still 100,000x more valuable than Gary Fuckingmatthews Jr.
"Three home teams advance, and the fuckin' Jets" - Rex Ryan
Meh
Stokes’ tRA last year was 5.50. Stokes is only 100,000x more valuable to AA, where we get lots of laughs out of him.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think looking just at his tRA is enough.
His splits:
.219 .297 .355 vs RHB
.330 .435 .487 vs LHB
Also, I recall reading somewhere he did considerably better when used in 1 inning or less.
He could be useful if Jerry actually knew how to use him he existed.
Possibly, but ROOGYs really don't cost much
And we already have a few of em. I’m not saying he’s not useful, just that he’s eminently replaceable for very little cost.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 1:16 PM EST up reply actions
nobody can ever replace Socks in my heart though.
I’ll grant you ROOGYS are pretty easy to come by, but giving up a perfectly useful one for a player who has absolutely no upside seems a waste.
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 22, 2010 1:38 PM EST up reply actions
my complaint is Socks is a serviceable middle reliever
GM Jr. is strictly worse than a player already on our roster. If he’s a backup, fine, I can see why they want a little insurance, but if he starts over Pagan then this move seems pretty ill-conceived.
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 22, 2010 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
Yea if GM Jr. is a backup it's not terrible.
But it’s still such a pointless move. Why would someone ever trade for a replacement level 4th OF when they grow on trees in the minors?
yeah GM Jr is hardly better than cheaper available options if you just need a temporary last ditch backup
plus why Socks. He was one of the few sources of entertainment this past season.
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 22, 2010 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
Absolutely
But no one’s said he’s automatically the starter.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
I know
but I still fear that will end up the case. And if he’s not supposed to be a starter, we could have picked up any number of CFs off the scrapheap who are capable backups for practically nothing.
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 22, 2010 1:38 PM EST up reply actions
Is he a troublemaker?
When I read Cameron story, I wonder if he would “demand” a starting job.
Link again:
The Most Delusional Man On The Planet
Oh definitely agreed
Just sayin, there seemed to be an assumption flying around that he was going to start, but even Cerrone doesn’t seem to think that’s the case
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
for once I really hope Cerrone is right
But if they didn’t think GMJR was something special why did they go out of their way to get him when better options were available on the FA market? Thats what makes me nervous
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 22, 2010 1:54 PM EST up reply actions
Gary Matthews..
….for 2 mil and Stokes. With an injured Beltran and the current economic climate, if this is a problem for you, than you have it pretty F-ing good.
hey man
i got 2 shiny pennies here.
I will give them to you for that 1 boring nickel.
Yes, its not really much money… but its more the pattern of incompetence.
i dont think so.
i think its spot on.
You have a horrible opinion about what constitutes a good baseball player…
… but whatever.
It's spot on.....
….because you want to turn a massive complex situation into a tiny thing. This is a potentially meaningful improvement at a meaningless cost. The odds of a positive impact are low, but that’s what you get on January 22 for the price we’re paying.
You don’t have no concept of risk/return, otherwise you would understand this. I’m not talking about the return on just Matthews. We’re talking the return on the whole team. Nonetheless, Matthews played through bad knees last year. The value of this deal hinges on his health. If healthy, he’s easily a $2 mil player.
Could you elaborate on this
This is a potentially meaningful improvement at a meaningless cost.
He’s been terrible, not average, not bad, terrible,he has no upside, he can’t hit, he can’t field, he can’t run, so how can this possibly be a meaningful improvement. Stokes has a better chance of becoming a shutdown reliever than Matthews does of being average. Pagan is better than Mattews, hell Fernando is better than Matthews, what is the upside to this deal?
"Three home teams advance, and the fuckin' Jets" - Rex Ryan
And Matthews doesn't even have grission
he doesn’t even register on a Milliledge meter.
Asking a General Manager to slim down his budget is like asking an alcoholic to blow up a distillery.
by scott from peekskill on Jan 22, 2010 1:21 PM EST up reply actions
An old picture?
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jan 22, 2010 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
Variance
As we say in poker…
"It's Father's Day today at Shea, so to all you fathers out there, Happy Birthday." -- Ralph Kiner
by dissento on Jan 22, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Rec'd
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
i dont have no concept of ignoring facts to meet my opinions
You are making stuff up.
Matthews has not had a season where he is worth 2mil in a long time. He is projected to be worth NEGATIVE 3.5 mil this year.
This is a stupid risk.
this is Omar making another move that screams ignorance. He is trading a useful guy for someone that is worse then some of the Minor Leaguers we have on the team. Its another small step in a long line of stupid decision.
We’re talking the return of the whole team? what does that even mean? GM is going to make FYF play better?
I have a concept of risk/return. The chance of a return is so small in this case, that the risk was not worth taking. The very best thing we can hope for is that he has 0 value. The best we can hope for is that he does not make us worse… what is the return in that?
He played through injury.....
…and posted a .700 OPS. That’s not horrible. Your generalizations don’t qualify as “facts”. He had surgery. If he heals, the years you are referencing are just “noise”. The cost is meaningless. Stokes + 2 mil = irrelevant.
No starting caliber CF = Potentially meaningless season.
You want to save money. How about saving the $120 million they are paying the whole team to finish 4th if we have no depth in the OF.
You keep defending this
and have yet to properly address the fact that Matthews sucks at baseball and Pagan doesn’t. We already had the Beltran replacement on our roster so how can you not realize the trade was totally pointless?
You keep ignoring that Matthews was injured.
Or that Pagan is human. When Pagan got hurt last year, it was Omar’s fault that he had no depth, and was forced to promote Fmart prematurely.
Now he adds a veteran CF in late January at almost no cost, and it isn’t necessary because we have Pagan.
This is more vitriol for Omar than sound baseball opinion from you people. If Jack Z made this move, it’d be a “brilliant pick up”.
Jack Z wouldn't have made this move
The problem is that there were zero or lesser cost players who actually appear to be better than Matthews, in fact quite a few of them. Eric Byrnes, Gabe Gross, Corey Sullivan, Endy Chavez. None will cost $3.5 million, all probably play better defense and provide more offense as well.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 12:56 PM EST up reply actions
GMJ won't cost us 3.5 mil either.....
…..Chavez made $2.05 million last year alone. Add in a raise, and we are getting GMJ for about 2/3 of ONE season from Chavez.
As long as we’re pretending, why not throw Pelfrey in the deal to further your point?
Why would he get a raise coming off injury?
"Three home teams advance, and the fuckin' Jets" - Rex Ryan
Endy will not sign a minor league deal.
If this was the case, he’d be signed already. If this in fact happens, we can revisit. Until then, this “point” is about as relevant as “GMJ sucks!”.
GMJ sucks! is a highly relevant point
seeing as he’s the player the Mets just acquired and that numerous metrics can be used to prove that point.
Ok, let me just post a link from Dave Cameron.
The Most Delusional Man On The Planet
Hey, you might not believe what some people are writing here but might consider what Cameron has to say.
Endy Chavez is a great defensive player.
Gary Matthews Jr. is not good at anything on a baseball diamond at this point. He is not worth 2/3 of Endy’s salary.
What are you talking about? Chavez isn't getting a raise. That's about where his salary was going to cap off even if he was healthy all of last year, which he wasn't. Some think he's taking a minor league deal
And that still doesn’t address Corey Sullivan, who accepted a minor league deal, Eric Byrnes, who was just released from an $11 million contract and will cost an acquiring team league min, or Gabe Gross, who certainly won’t make $3 mil.
And what does Mike Pelfrey have anything to do with anything? I don’t understand that comment at all. Methinks your the one “pretending”
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 1:04 PM EST up reply actions
Eric Byrnes....
….is a horror show. You’re upset about the difference between Byrnes and GMJ. Byrnes is horrendous, and could never handle CF in Citifield.
He is one of a select group of players, that could not even outperform an INJURED Matthews.
Wrong
He was a positive value player even last year, he’s only had one sub-replacement season, also “injury plagued” as goes your argument for Matthews, and he’s projected to be 1.2 WAR by CHONE next year. He was a plus on defense last year, also in a corner, and has a very strong track record in CF, which involves going back a few years in time, but the exact same thing can be said for Matthews. At least Eric Byrnes component batting numbers are still good. His BABIP has been below .240 the last few years but nothing else has changed. Matthews BABIP was .294 and .315 the last few years, its his components that have suffered.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 1:10 PM EST up reply actions
Lol....
….GMJ posted a higher OPS in a pitcher’s park, while playing through injury, than Byrnes playing in a hitter’s park, in a weaker league.
Please….stop…..your madness.
We are paying GMJ 1 mil per F-ing year.
You don't really "get" offensive baseball analysis do you?
I suppose CHONE, Marcel, and Bill James are all wrong in expecting Byrnes to be at least as good as Matthews offensively.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 1:38 PM EST up reply actions
Byrnes has been horrendous....
….who cares what Chone, Marcel and James say.
Umm, lots of people?
I’d wager they’re more often right about these things than you and I combined. Again, its simple BABIP regression. Matthews has sucked because he hits less home runs, put the ball in play less, and walks less (actually his walk rate increased in 2009, I’ll give you that, but the other two have been falling off drastically). Byrnes has sucked because less of the balls he’s put in play have fallen for hits, at a rate so low its unsustainable.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 1:44 PM EST up reply actions
Byrnes has sucked....
…because he sucks. That’s why the Dbacks couldn’t even get a RP, or a million dollars for him.
Well, how can we argue with such fine reasoning?
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 22, 2010 1:53 PM EST up reply actions
He is there for all of baseball....
…to add him for nothing, and he is still unclaimed. Yet you, in your mom’s basement see a shining light that nobody else can see.
You could say the same thing aboug GMJ!
Anyone could have traded a mediocre reliever for him and $20 mil!
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 1:58 PM EST up reply actions
Ah, the old
“mom’s basement” argument. Well done, good sir.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 22, 2010 1:59 PM EST up reply actions
I'm being sarcastic.
You’re barely above trolling.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 22, 2010 2:00 PM EST up reply actions
For what? Teams could have done this at any time for the last two years
Byrnes has only been available for the league min for a matter of days.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 2:00 PM EST up reply actions
Yep, league min.
You are making up more make believe by making GMJ available at this price. Ok. It’s the lesser of fabrications you’ve posted, like GMJ’s imaginary 3.5 mil salary from the Mets.
Do you actually think GMs are not adding Byrnes because they didn’t notice he’s out there yet? As if in May, someone is going to look up and say, “Wow, Byrnes is out there?”
This isn’t your fantasy basball league. By the time the Dbacks dropped him, they already explored deals to the African baseball league.
Actually, I think some GMs might
not realize Byrnes is available. Some of those guys suck pretty hard at their jobs.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 22, 2010 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
most GMs don't need a backup CF like we do
We’re in a somewhat awkward position of having one CF who will miss a month, and only one backup who can play CF at all. Most teams have built in depth where they don’t need emergency players during the offseason like we do.
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 22, 2010 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
Like the Yankees?
Or more than half the teams in baseball?
CF is paid a premium for a reason. I know this is hard to see through your rage for Omar, but CF is one of the toughest positions to fill in the league. We have 2 and brought in a third because we can afford to do that.
Why not bring in a guy like Endy who is much better that Gary Matthews Jr.?
"Three home teams advance, and the fuckin' Jets" - Rex Ryan
CF is a premium position for sure
but i disagree with your statement we can afford to bring in a 35 year old CF with bad legs for somewhere between 1 and 2 mil per year (can’t keep track of what the actual number is with all the arguments going on). That money is better spent elsewhere. I don’t mind picking up a backup CF, but why spend so much. I say we’d have been better off picking up someone like Rocco Baldelli.
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 22, 2010 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
Care to list the "fabrications" I've posted?
I think no one’s added Byrnes because he’s mulling his options. Of course the D’Backs explored trading him, but then they added a player and needed to clear space on the 40-man. Once the DFA’d Byrnes, no one was going to trade for him, why bother when they could just wait until he was released and get him for virtually nothing?
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
More speculation....
…..he’s mulling his options now huh?
Perhaps he’s wishing on a star for the ability to play CF?
Or, maybe
there’s a couple of offers on the table, and he’s considering where he might go. He’s not required to take the first offer he gets.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 22, 2010 2:11 PM EST up reply actions
And none of them....
….are to play CF for anybody.
Whose speculating now?
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
I say the guy....
….who barely played CF isn’t going to play there. You have him starting in CF.
The more information you get, the dumber you get.
I never once said he'd start in CF
Nor to I expect GMJ to. I expect Angel Pagan to start in CF, and either or could back up, and I imagine Byrnes would do a better job of it and cost the team less money.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 2:16 PM EST up reply actions
Precisely..
…you “imagine”. Just like you “imagine” that GMJ will cost the Mets 3.5.
If healthy, Matthews is starting in CF.
Oh, and GMJ is costing us $3.5. That’s the difference between the money the Angels are giving us, and his salary for the next 2 years.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 22, 2010 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
From above:
We’re getting $20, and he’s making $11 and $12 million, respectively
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 22, 2010 2:25 PM EST up reply actions
I think it was later clarified to $21 million
Though it was initially reported $20
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 2:29 PM EST up reply actions
That was the initial amount that was reported
I didn’t “make it up”. And not even Matt Cerrone thinks GMJ is the starting CF as of right now.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, if healthy
Pagan starts, and Matthews backs up.
In talking with a team official, the Mets see Matthews Jr. as a back-up, or fall-back position, to Angel Pagan, who the Mets like very much and see as the favorite to win the starting center field job in the absence of Carlos Beltran, who will miss the start of the year recovering from knee surgery.
from metsblog
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 2:26 PM EST up reply actions
If that's the case....
…and Pagan gets hurt, then Matthews can go in. At least he can back up CF.
Byrnes is not a CF, therefore, he does not add the right depth either.
The only reason Byrnes is not a CF
Is because Chris Young is a better CF than he is, not because he’s worse than 30+ other CFs in the league, just because he’s worse than another CF that played on the same team.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 2:33 PM EST up reply actions
More stories....
…ok. It seems the more “information” gets in your way, the more stories I hear from you.
if the ball just traveled farther when Byrnes hit it, he would’ve been a better hitter. Ignore his numbers, he’s clearly Tony Gwynn.
What numbers am I ignoring? Care to cite them?
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 2:36 PM EST up reply actions
Pick any stat....
…relating to Eric Byrnes and baseball.
UZR in CF
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 2:36 PM EST up reply actions
UZR...
…is not a definitive stat, even if looking at a whole season. If you TOTAL his appearances there for the past FIVE years, you barely have a full season’s worth of data.
Red Herring
You said I’m ignoring stats and have failed to list a single stat I’m ignoring so far
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
My proof....
…is any stat related to Byrnes and baseball.
You picked one you are NOT ignoring, and I just discredited it. You chose a stat that is literally meaningless over one full season. I’m telling you that he barely provides enough data to support that stat over the past FIVE YEARS.
I listed three more below, and just because a stat has a low correlation rate in one season doesn't make it literally meaningless
You still haven’t named a single stat I’m ignoring, you’re generalizing without any evidence. I don’t have access to +/-, so I can’t name that, but any component offensive stat. K%, BB%, HR%, HR/FB, BABIP,
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 2:42 PM EST up reply actions
UZR for one year....
…is literally meaningless.
If you don’t get that, then you don’t get anything.
Of course, that's not fully true, buy okay...
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 22, 2010 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
I love how you say that the one stat Mark brings up is "unreliable"
but when pressed to pick any of your own, you ignore the prompt. Just love that.
John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.
It is.....
….one year of UZR is worth about as much as W-L for a pitcher.
That's insane
1 year of UZR has some value, W-L is meaningless
"Three home teams advance, and the fuckin' Jets" - Rex Ryan
1 year of W-L...
…is an indication of consistency, durability and potential baseball intelligence.
Yes, that’s stretching it. But so is arguing in favor 1 year of UZR.
W-L tells you the teams' performance
not the pitcher’s.
"Three home teams advance, and the fuckin' Jets" - Rex Ryan
You have to be somewhat...
…consistent and durable to win a lot of games. The main point is that 1 year of UZR is about equally worthless.
You also need run support.
Something W-L record doesn’t measure.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 22, 2010 3:14 PM EST up reply actions
Wait wait wait wait...what?
Potential baseball intelligence? Huh? Wait…what?
John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.
im gonna have to disagree with you
Look at Cliff Lee last year. He was 13-12 if i remember correctly. Does that mean he’s a mediocre pitcher, or that he didn’t get run support. I’d go with the latter. I agree 1 year of UZR is a bit suspect, but signing a 35 year old CF with the potential to put up those kinds of UZRs consistenly is a dangerous move.
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 22, 2010 3:10 PM EST up reply actions
That's actually totally incorrect.
If you want to go to the other accepted available defensive measurement, TotalZone, fine. Matthews has been rated almost a win WORSE in TotalZone than UZR each of the past two years. So maybe you should pick your battles better, there.
John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.
HR/FB. K%. BB%. HR%. BABIP
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 2:37 PM EST up reply actions
The only stat there.....
….that isn’t pathetic for him, is K%. (plus your quoting a BB% for a guy coming off 2 seasons of .270 OBP.)
So basically, he can’t hit for shit, but he won’t K.
You prefer Byrnes. Ok. But you are not even close to making a definitive argument in his favor.
Actually, almost all those rates are exactly the same as what they were when he was a 3-4 WAR player
The point is none of his component stats have changed in any significant way EXCEPT BABIP
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 2:44 PM EST up reply actions
Also OBP doesn't quantify ability to walk
It quantifies getting on base, which as I’ve shown, is held back by low BABIP more than anything
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
You didn't prove anything.....
….you posted some data about Byrnes that could possibly suport him earning a spot on a team somewhere. We decided to go with the athletic guy who has played a great CF in the past, coming off surgery, who outperformed your guy the past 2 years.
Could we have saved a mediocre middle reliever? Sure. Our scouts chose to go with GMJ. Nothing you posted makes this such a “crazy move”. GMJ has a better resume, if even only slightly better. For that slightly better, it cost us a mediorce relief pitcher. We’re the Mets. We can do stuff like that.
He hasn't played great center field since like 2005
Endy would have been a much better option if just looking for defense. And he’d probably be better offensively too.
"Three home teams advance, and the fuckin' Jets" - Rex Ryan
What does that mean,
“We’re the Mets. We can do stuff like that.”? We can throw away resources to solve a problem the more expensive way? And isn’t Byrnes pretty athletic, too?
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 22, 2010 2:51 PM EST up reply actions
It means if we like another guy more....
….we can afford to pay the premium when it is only a middle reliever.
Considering the Wilpons'
reluctance to go over the threshold, I would say that we cannot afford to do things like that.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 22, 2010 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
Not when we have millions and millions of dollars locked up in guys like Ollie, Castillo, Frenchy, Krod Mandoon, etc.
Guys who even if everything breaks RIGHT, will only just live up to their salaries.
And considering it seems we’re having a much smaller payroll this year…
John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.
But the problem is you're wrong
Defense alone has made Byrnes more valuable the last two years. GMJ has been -1.6 WAR the last two years, Byrnes has been -0.5 WAR, or a full 1.1 WAR better than GMJ, and he projects to be quite a bit more. CHONE projects GMH at -0.1 WAR and Byrnes at 1.2 WAR.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 2:51 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not wrong.
If Chone is so accurate, why do they play?
Byrnes played LF in a weaker league. GMJ played through injury. Numbers without context don’t mean shit.
Look at the volatility in each of their performances throughout their careers. That tells you how accurate you can expect Chone to be.
Nothing you said takes precedence over the opinion of our scouts, especially given that all it cost us was Stokes.
Stokes and an extra $2 million
You haven’t really said anything here. Look at the volatility of each players career? They’ve both had incredibly volatile careers, and again, at least Byrnes has carried some defensive value. All the component rates and defensive rates for Matthews have been in steep decline. This simply isn’t true of Byrnes.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
Whoopty F-ing doo....
1) Byrnes would not play for us for free.
2) 2 mil. So what??
Byrnes carried defensive value at a position WE HAVE FILLED.
John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.
by squid92 on Jan 22, 2010 2:58 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Yes, Byrnes would pay for us for free
And did you read the link I posted about outfielder valuation? That says more than enough about the last claim, which is completely erroneous. You make it seem like players are fixed to positions with no flexibility. Especially in the outfield and talking about quality defensive players, this simply isn’t true.
Also, the way the salary situation with Byrnes works is he earns $11 mil no matter what. He doesn’t earn more money if a team offers him more, they simply pay that portion of his existing salary, so he has no incentive to ask for more than the league min.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
Oh ok....
….so in your imaginary world, players don’t want more money.
As if all these competing bids are for league min. He’s so great, that not a single team will bid higher than league min?
I'm pretty sure you don't understand how this works.
Byrnes is still being paid by the team that cut him. The team that picks him up only pays league minimum — if they offered more, the money would go to his old team, not into EB’s pockets.
Kind of like how....
….GMJ’s full salary would hit our luxury tax right? Oh no, that was Himmelstien.
Look, our scouts weighed the factors and liked this guy more. Enough to pay 1 F-ing mil. The reliever is worthless. That is fine for me, given that I like GMJ more than Byrnes anyway.
You guys haven’t posted a single definitive fact that would cause me to change my personal choice of GMJ over Byrnes, or to disagree with our scouts. That’s the bottom line.
Mark was wrong, and he admitted it
So let it go already. And nothing’s going to convince you Byrnes is a better option than Matthews, even Matthews himself telling you.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 22, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
Here
If a player is not traded, and clears waivers, he may be released from the team. The player is then a free agent and may sign with any team, including the team that just released him. The team that releases him is responsible for the salary the player is owed, less what he is paid by the team that signs him. In practice, that amount is usually a pro-rated portion of the Major League minimum salary.
That’s how it works when a player with a guaranteed contract is released. So no, he has no incentive to ask for more than the league min. It just means the acquiring team would pay a larger portion of the $11 mil he’s already guaranteed.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 3:02 PM EST up reply actions
Oh ok....
…so now you’re the expert of payroll again right? Wasn’t it you that said GMJs full salary would hit our luxury tax?
He isn’t going to pick the best league min bid. if he does, I’d still pay 500K more GMJ.
You do realize the difference here is 500K and a worthless middle reliever right?
Leave Socks alone!
really though with so many different spots on the team to fill, adding an extra hole in the bullpen and spending extra money just isn’t the best course of action right now.
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 22, 2010 3:12 PM EST up reply actions
No, the difference is a bit more than $1 million
And this time I looked it up and quoted someone elses words, since I understood I shot some credibility out the window with my payroll claims before. This seems to be more about attacking me at this point though than it does about the actual debate, so I’m about done.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
Mark, I have a friend who has a friend who has a friend who lost his banhammer.
Can you lend me yours for a sec?
It's tens of thousands of dollars...
…more over TWO years. This is if Byrnes’ new team pays him league minimum. You really want to build an argument around tens of thousands of dollars?
How do you know he won't?
It makes no difference whether they offer the minimum or not.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 22, 2010 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
hey to be fair
this offseason players have been accepting less money to not have to play for the Mets.
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 22, 2010 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
No, the point is
Byrnes already has $11 million coming his way for 2010. He can’t be paid more unless he gets offered more than $11 million. The D-Backs pay $11 million, less what his new team offers him. It’s the same deal we had with Sheffield last season.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 22, 2010 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
You do realize Byrnes has played over 2000 innings in center field, right?
John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.
In a vaccum, yes
But when you’ve guaranteed $9 mil to 3 question marks you hamstring yourself in terms of moves you can make later on.
Sunk cost......
….vs incremental improvement.
Frenchy at 5 mil is a solid investment.
We overpaid.
Not as badly as we did for Ollie, but we overpaid.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 22, 2010 3:17 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe according to your magic world....
….but he performed enough to warrant 5 mil. If he did the same thing as last year over a full season, he’d eclipse 5 mil in value at the break.
Just b/c we're paying him $5 million
doesn’t mean he actually earned it.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 22, 2010 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
but he's not an investment
one year means they’re not investing in his future, they’re just keeping him around for lack of a better option. As I said above, I’d be less offended by this if they had offered him more years because it would have meant at least they thought of him a a young player who could become a strong OF option. It would show an attempt at foresight at least.
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 22, 2010 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
And excuse me if I don't trust "our scouts"
The same guys who said Ollie was a better buy than Lowe, and who thought Jason Bay is a better defender than Matt Holliday.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
The same guys who picked...
…Jose Reyes (Omar), Tatis, Pagan, Wright, Maine, Murphy, Mejia, Fmart, Niese, Flores…..
I didn't say they were bad at identifying talent under 25 years old
In most of the cases you mention, under 20 years old.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
Comparing prospects and minor league retreads to big time free agent signings is completely unfair.
John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.
Omar didn't have anything to do with Reyes or Wright
He just signed two of the best player in baseball to extensions. A retarded monkey would have known to resign them.
"Three home teams advance, and the fuckin' Jets" - Rex Ryan
Again...
….not true.
Omar was one of the strongest advocates for bringing Reyes to the Mets.
Omar was here long before Reyes and Wright were.
Reyes and Wright were here long before Omar.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 22, 2010 3:02 PM EST up reply actions
He has had a fairly low BABIP over the course of his career though.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 22, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
That's true
But part of that is factoring the last two years, and plus its .282, not .230. We have to expect some regression.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
Additionally....
…what a Mets official doesn’t mean anything in this case.
They will play it out in ST. Whoever outperforms will start. Pagan does not have such a stronghold that a strong ST from GMJ won’t win people over.
Also, if we sign Byrnes and Pagan..
….gets hurt, then what imaginary CF do you play in CF?
Nevermind that there are pitchers who hit better than Byrnes.
If we sign Byrnes, it's to play CF
And by that same logic, if GMJ gets hurt, who’s playing center then, huh?
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 22, 2010 2:24 PM EST up reply actions
Then I imagine Eric Byrnes plays CF
Being that he has a career 11.1 UZR/150 at the position. Matthews has a career -2.4 UZR at the position.
And again, Eric Byrnes BABIPs the last two years were .226 and .229. This is why his offensive projections are stronger than Matthews, who actually has clearly declined in offensive talent the last few years. His K% and increased and HR/FB and ISO dropped.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 2:25 PM EST up reply actions
flagged as trolling again!
Stop with the ad-hominem nonsense, NOW.
What are you talking about?
He’s been a free agent less than a week! He’s waiting to see which teams are interested in him and willing to offer him the most guaranteed playing time in the most comfortable atmosphere. That’s all he cares about.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
Apparently you can,
since you claim that you know for a fact that Byrnes doesn’t have any offers on the table.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 22, 2010 2:14 PM EST up reply actions
No, but I can eliminate most other possibilities for reasons he might choose a team
Its not money, he’s already got his $11 mil in the bank and unless someone offers more won’t make more, which obviously isn’t happening. What other reasons could he have for deciding which team to sign with? An even better question, why wouldn’t these issues be considerations for him?
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
Because the issue is...
…that he’s worthless.
You've made your point.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 22, 2010 2:37 PM EST up reply actions
"speculation" is off limits?
This from the poster who, just upthread, knew without a doubt what kind of contract Endy Chavez was looking for?
Please stop the rapid-fire defensive replies for at least long enough to come up with something logically consistent to say. Knee-jerk defensive aggression like this doesn’t help anything.
that shining light
Is called the Holy Glow of Cheetos thank you very much. I won’t have you speaking ill of it.
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 22, 2010 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
haha is there a flag limit?
I applaud you for finding it the hard way.
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 22, 2010 2:44 PM EST up reply actions
Does the site bot make appearances on comments?
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 22, 2010 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
Not a good argument, I'll break it down
If the D’backs can’t get a RP or a million dollars for Byrnes, they will release him.
They released him
Therefore they couldn’t get a RP or a million dollars for Byrnes
This is called “affirming the consequent”. In a hypothetical statement, you can either affirm the antecedent (aka the first part) or deny the consequent (aka the second part) to draw a conclusion out of the other part of the statement. When you affirm the consequent, you know nothing about the antecedent, it could be either true or false. Just because the consequent is true, that tells you nothing about the antecedent.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 1:55 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Hahahahaha
You sound like you read books and stuff… queer.
"Three home teams advance, and the fuckin' Jets" - Rex Ryan
Hahaha this is the second time I've invoked affirming the consequent on AA
The first time was Mike Silva :)
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 2:02 PM EST up reply actions
Let's end this right now....
…half the F-ing alternatives you named, DONT PLAY THE POSITION WE NEED TO FILL.
Ok? In your imaginary league, Byrnes goes onto greatness in 2010, but in reality, he has no place on our team. We need a C-E-N-T-E-R F-I-E-L-D-E-R.
If only Omar had the luxury of turning LFs into CFs, he could be as good a GM as you.
Endy Chavez does.
And he wouldn’t even cost us the $3 million Matthews will cost, much less another player. And he’s way better than Matthews ever was. And younger.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 22, 2010 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
blogging is a dangerous pastime
But I think I prefer finger injuries due to troll-flagging rather than argumentative tennis elbow from the constant ill-thought-out return volleys here.
God forbid you'd need the Mets staff to treat you...
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 22, 2010 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
Whens the funeral?
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 22, 2010 2:42 PM EST up reply actions
yesterday
I came back from the grave just to comment on this post. Zombie eat brains but zombie cannot swallow this injustice.
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 22, 2010 2:45 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Call the Bear Jew...
Damn Zombies
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 22, 2010 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
haha funny enough some of my friends call me that.
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 22, 2010 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
I think I've watched parts of that movie every night since I got it.
I never finish it though because I end up switching to the 10th inning of game 6.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 22, 2010 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
its amazingly entertaining
and Christoph Waltz was amazing in it. Best villian i’ve seen in a long time.
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 22, 2010 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry, wrong again
Outfielder Valuation and Mike Cameron.
I’d rather have a plus defensive corner outfielder playing center than a TERRIBLE DEFENSIVE CF
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 2:04 PM EST up reply actions
Omar probably just
remembers the collision
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 22, 2010 2:18 PM EST up reply actions
Better question, no offense:
Who cares what YOU have to say?
John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.
by squid92 on Jan 22, 2010 2:14 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
seriously
If you reject the facts you don’t like, advance flagrantly inconsistent arguments, call other posters names when they disagree, and repeat “mom’s basement” cliches without a trace of irony, why should we bother engaging you in a conversation?
by anonymous on Jan 22, 2010 2:19 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Just for the sake of record
MetsfanX flags from this thread: 14
Total combined flags of all posters in this tread: 14
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
Rec. Reading the "Step Into A World (Lurker's Delight)", some people mentioned that we gang on people who have different opinions or mention avg or RBI's.
That might happen sometimes, but we usually try to engage in a civil discussion, present the links if the person is willing to learn, we crack some jokes and all.
But if the person is trolling, calling names, ignoring all arguments and being extremely disrespectful, maybe he should consider another site.
Exactly my thoughts reading that
I don’t get snide with people until they start name calling and launching ad homs. Usually I like to think we’re a patient group willing to explain things to people willing to listen, and admit our mistakes when we make them. We simply hold the community to the same standard.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
Like your mistake that ...
…GMJ is costing us 3.5 mil, or that Gabe Gross or Eric Byrnes add depth to CF?
Mistakes like that?
The initial report said 3.5M, they updated the information later.
About Gabe and Byrnes, Mark has covered that already.
hahhaa
nice try.. excellent picture of that arm
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 22, 2010 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
Can we harvest GM Jr and use his body parts to fix the rest of the roster?
Beltran called dibs on his knees.
We've got a bunch that need his heart...
Just ask Fatcessa
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 22, 2010 3:20 PM EST up reply actions
Is that arm pre- or -post HGH?
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 22, 2010 3:21 PM EST up reply actions
And now you've just earned your first flag from me
And if you keep it up you’re gonna get warned/temporarily banned. The deal was initially reported as $20 million. This has been explained to you multiple times, and much of the early discussion assumed the amount the Mets owed was $3.5 million. It does nothing for the discussion to use that as a way of attacking other members, and you need to knock it off.
BTW, I’ve been on this site for about a year and a half, and I don’t think I’ve given out a single flag until now.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
About time you got your feet wet...
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 22, 2010 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
So calling you out....
…on your idiotic rhetoric earns a flag.
So if I pretend that GMJ can play gold glove defense at SS, and you disagree, can I flag you?
I haven't insulted or attacked you once
You can flag away, but clearly you’ll be alone in flagging me, whereas virtually everyone else engaged in this discussion has flagged you. Plus, I have mod powers, and you’re just going to get yourself banned if you start giving out erroneous flags. I feel I’m being pretty patient here, and I assume most of the rest of the community would agree, but you gotta cool it.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
I'm personally amazed that you haven't yet.
He’s been way out of line for a while at this point.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 22, 2010 2:36 PM EST up reply actions
I know, feels like a conflict of interest though
If I weren’t so involved in the convo, and so many of the attacks weren’t directed at me, I almost definitely would have by now.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 2:38 PM EST up reply actions
Honestly nobody here is going to blame you for it.
I don’t think I’ve seen a new post actually discussing the trade in a bit.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 22, 2010 2:40 PM EST up reply actions
They get hard to follow whe they get squished into a 1/4" box on the right
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 22, 2010 2:44 PM EST up reply actions
You're just acting like a jerk at this point.
Drop it and move on so we can actually discuss the move.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 22, 2010 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
Except Gary Matthews has never played shortstop, but Eric Byrnes has played good CF defense in the past?
Explain what I’m missing, exactly? Can ANYONE explain what he’s saying?
John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.
I've never really understood the allegations of groupthink.
I mean, reasonable disagreements really abound here — I’ve learned a ton from reading people’s arguments about the merits and shortcomings of different defensive stats, for instance. It’s just the knee-jerk, WFAN-caller-style stuff that gets short shrift, as it well should.
I'll still engage him in conversation because here in my moms basement
its the only human contact I get.
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 22, 2010 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
really
talk about ignoring
GMjr was a good d player when he came up, but he is old now and coming off an injury.
Dude had 1 good offensive season in 2006, which was SOOOO much better then any other season he has ever had playing in a contract year for a team that has had its share of steroid abusers pass though it.
If Jack Z made this move...
… it would be damned confusing, and I’d wonder whether there was something I was missing… since he has a track record— however short— of making exceedingly logical, economical moves that show real skill at player valuation, or at running an organization that produces same.
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Jan 22, 2010 11:47 PM EST up reply actions
NNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
WHY GOD, WHY!
THIS FRANCHISE IS SO F—KING STUPID,. IT ISN’T FAIR!
It's the accumulation of crap that galls me
This is another move that in isolation we could shrug off. Okay, we acquire a sub-mediocre backup for a couple of million dollars (basically). Bad, but we could deal with it.
But this is of course not in isolation. He is yet another negative-valued backup player that gets thrown in with the mighty Alex Cora and the never-ending litany of barely mediocre, aging catchers. Once again this team looks like it is prepared to enter the season with no depth – worse than no depth, in fact, as several of these guys have freaking negative value.
This is why Minaya gets no pass for the 2009 season and the bevy of injuries. He had a barely mediocre collection of talent surrounding his core players, and he bolstered that lineup with no bench whatsoever. And so it continues.
This is the fundamental fault of the Minaya administration. He makes decent and sometimes even very good acquisitions for the everyday lineup and his pitching staff, but when it comes to the “bottom 10” of the roster he is worse than useless.
by dcmetsfan on Jan 22, 2010 12:28 PM EST reply actions 7 recs
+1
This
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage
by blueandorange4life on Jan 22, 2010 4:47 PM EST up reply actions
That's why all of the injuries was one of the worst things to happen (obviously)
It covered up Omar and Jerry’s inadequacies. It basically gave both of them a free pass for all of last season.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 22, 2010 6:33 PM EST up reply actions
No,
No God, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
"Three home teams advance, and the fuckin' Jets" - Rex Ryan
Upside
this will mess with the Phillies’ broadcasts when his father is doing the games
by Mount17 on Jan 22, 2010 12:30 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
This. Win.
The 2010 New York Mets: Maybe it's the Phillies' turn to have 95% of its roster on the DL
P.S. Rangers Suck! Flyers Swallow!
because they would have cost nothing
and sucked probably marginally less?
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 22, 2010 12:37 PM EST up reply actions
And they'll be on the right side of 30.
Matthews will be 35 for the season, and then 36. So any health bounceback he might get will be counterbalanced by his aging.
It’s a low-cost move to be sure, and it won’t be a huge deal in the long-term, because 2 mil and a middle reliever is unlikely to bite a team, but it’s not likely to help either. (assuming Matthews gets 100 PA at the limit; beyond that, we’re talking about the opportunity cost of Pagan losing a lot of time, which is significant.)
Let’s not overreact. It’s an unnecessary move, and one that doesn’t have a high chance of helping the team significantly, but It’s not like Pagan got traded for Vernon Wells and his contract.
by The nye mets are my favorite team on Jan 22, 2010 1:03 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
i'm not reacting too violently here, although losing Socks requires a moment of silence here at AA
I just see this as another overpay for below average production, and it has gotten to the point where I’m not sure why i expected anything else.
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 22, 2010 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
This thread would be at 40 posts if Kunz got traded.
I agree, losing Socks makes me sad, even if he was just a stat-generating robot in my spreadsheets.
This is what happens when you have a replacement-level front office; it’s not mid-90s Tigers bad, but there are lots of little moves that convince the fanbase that someone else in the game could do a better job.
by The nye mets are my favorite team on Jan 22, 2010 1:54 PM EST up reply actions
I'd be almost as annoyed with Kunz because he's Ruff
actually I would still be upset, because there was no reason to go out of our way with matthews when there were plenty of free agent CFs who are younger and cheaper and better than he is. Why trade at all?
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 22, 2010 1:56 PM EST up reply actions
this thread would be at 40 posts if it hadn't *been trolled so hard*
This trade is pretty inconsequential even in terms of mildly dumb things Omar has done recently.
Also, you’re aware that it’s “my favorite squadron,” right? Or perhaps “my favoUrite squadron”?
My fault for not checking.
I should have written squadron. Whoops.
by The nye mets are my favorite team on Jan 22, 2010 2:00 PM EST up reply actions
No wonder we are the laughingstock of MLB.
Roster spots for:
overpaid “good clubhouse guy”
overpaid “RBI’z guy”
overpaid “below replacement 4th OF”
over-overpaid “savez pitcher” plus vesting option
overpaid “2nd coming of Sandy Koufax”
overpaid “blackhole in MI”
1B of the future → at least he is cheap
Is it wrong i'm not even as mad about being stuck with GM Jr
as I am about not having Caesar Socks around to entertain me anymore. I think my brain has already told me to abandon hope of a good season, but I’d like to still enjoy watching the team.
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 22, 2010 12:38 PM EST reply actions
The best move of all would have been to not make any at all.
This team will not see 1 penny of my hard earned paycheck in 2010……Guaranteed!
2011 isn’t looking good either. At this rate we could expect to sign Delgado for 8 mil a year in guaranteed money.
Wonder which teams are good in the MLS? I think soccer sounds like a fun sport this year. Auf wiedersehen Minaya.
2011 we'll start graduating the young talent
if we dont trade them all off for vernon wells first. Theres at least hope of some decent youth movement if we can last that long
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 22, 2010 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
I predict
Matthews snaps a tendon / ligament during the first month of the season, while Stokes goes on to win fireman of the year, and a ring with the angels.
you know what I'm sayin' ?
I know Socks! wasn't truly awesome, but
he was one of the few bright spots last year, and one of the only relievers who put together a pretty long string of scoreless appearances. I think it was about 14-15 innings at one point. Yes, he’s not good at all vs. lefties, but he was pretty damn good vs. righties. And I think his K rate was actually a little low for the kind of stuff he has. I bet it goes up this year significantly.
Socks, good luck, we hardly knew ya (and some like Jerry didn’t know you at all).
by Mackey Sasser on Jan 22, 2010 12:46 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I've actually privately long speculated
He’d be more suited to an emergency SP role than 6th or 7th reliever role, but that’s really just speculation, I have little to back it up with. Something about his command and repertoire depth, I just wonder if taking a bit off and introducing his repertoire more deliberately over time might work better for him than going max effort in short stints.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 12:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
He seemed to pitch better
when he was used more frequently to me, but I don’t have evidence to back that up. Would like to see how he did in his first appearance after one of Jerry’s long lay-offs as opposed to when he pitched after 1 day or 2 days rest, etc.
by Mackey Sasser on Jan 22, 2010 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
At least he'll now have a file photo to go next to Jason Bay on the website banner.
The 2010 New York Mets: Maybe it's the Phillies' turn to have 95% of its roster on the DL
P.S. Rangers Suck! Flyers Swallow!
Visiting fan from Bleed Cubbie Blue
This may be a precursor to trading Beltran, if indeed management is really that upset over him and this surgery thing.
"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway,' but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies." - Mike Royko
I don't think so
Beltran during the surgery is a better player than Gary Matthews Jr is healthy. Hopefully Omar realizes this
"Three home teams advance, and the fuckin' Jets" - Rex Ryan
Without a doubt
the nurses helping perform the surgery are better players than GMJ. This way if they trade for a Centerfielder (I use that term loosely with GMJ) before they get rid of Beltran, it gives Omar more leverage, i.e. eating more salary, than if its after the trade.
I just hadn’t seen anyone throw out that scenario but had heard that Beltran may have fallen out of favor with management and is now possibly being shopped around.
"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway,' but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies." - Mike Royko
If Beltran is then traded so Gary Matthews Jr. can start
I’m done. No, like seriously. I’m no longer a Mets fan in that scenario.
John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.
Rays and Mariners
are my AL teams. Not that I watch AL games.
"Three home teams advance, and the fuckin' Jets" - Rex Ryan
yeah i hate the AL
but i’d probably go Mariners. When was a kid I liked Cleveland too before I decided liking two teams was cheating so I could go back there too i guess.
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 22, 2010 1:44 PM EST up reply actions
Red Sox.
I’ve had family in Mass. for 75 years so it’s an easy call.
by SeanSchirmer on Jan 23, 2010 3:11 AM EST up reply actions
can't do sox
my mom is a yankees fan, and my dad is a sox fan. I need middle ground.
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 23, 2010 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
PITTSBURGH
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
well nobody could accuse me of hopping on the bandwagon at least
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 24, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
That's exactly my logic
they suck so bad right now, and likely will in the near future, that by the time their current front office finally turns things around people will assume you’re a true and blue fan.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
yup by the same logic I could probably get away with cinci
or I could go to KC, and follow a different, even more inept team.
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 24, 2010 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah but KC
probably won’t actually turn it around any time soon. Neither will cincy once Dusty confuses all their young hitters and destroys all their young pitchers. Pittsburgh’s current front office actually uses an intelligent progressive model and is slowly, but surely, heading in the direction of .500…which will probably feel like a world series for their fans. They’ve been stock piling guys who project to be cheap league average ml players at least while occasionally buying low on high risk high reward guys to surround them with.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
i agree that their approach is generally right
but it seems like they end up developing talent only to ship it to other teams before they can get a full team together. The Pirates remind me a lot of the Expos in the 90’s when all of their talent ended up being important pieces of other teams.
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 24, 2010 10:57 PM EST up reply actions
Their new front office hasn't really done that
with any players they’ve developed. They sold way high on Nady, shipped Bay off for his last 1.5 bargain for a top 20 prospect and two highly regarded guys, and then traded McClouth for two guys who will likely be league average players relatively soon.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
Think a minute, people:
even OMAR’s not dumb enough to get pennies on the dollar for a mending Beltran. Maybe it means they’ll move him 1B permanently or something, but IMHO, a trade is out of the question.
Oh, the butcher and the baker and the people on the street: wheredotheygo?!?!?
and moving him to 1B
would also be pretty effin’ stoopid, but not a firable offense.
Oh, the butcher and the baker and the people on the street: wheredotheygo?!?!?
FUCKPISSWANKBUGGERSHITTINGASSHEADANDHOLE.
Oh, the butcher and the baker and the people on the street: wheredotheygo?!?!?
Fuck you Omar and the Wilpons!
You greasy w*p shiztos pisser thingy gomorrah greek bastards!
The 2010 New York Mets: Maybe it's the Phillies' turn to have 95% of its roster on the DL
P.S. Rangers Suck! Flyers Swallow!
by R_Adragna on Jan 22, 2010 1:02 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Haha. Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels.
Asking a General Manager to slim down his budget is like asking an alcoholic to blow up a distillery.
by scott from peekskill on Jan 22, 2010 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
Thank you!
I can always use a Rory Breaker reference.
by Coolpapabell on Jan 22, 2010 2:00 PM EST up reply actions
And you're always welcome to have one at any time!
The 2010 New York Mets: Maybe it's the Phillies' turn to have 95% of its roster on the DL
P.S. Rangers Suck! Flyers Swallow!
My biggest issue with this is it's just more of the same pointless crap.
This is not a terrible deal. Unfortunately that’s the nicest thing I can say about it. That’s actually the best I can say about most of Omar’s moves (you know, the ones that aren’t blatantly horrific). His ceiling is “not terrible” and nothing more.
Yeah, I agree.
Matthews is horrible. Stokes is a legitimate big league reliever. It’s not the end of the world as a trade, but it’s just yet another trade that shows Omar cannot handle this. Who trades for Gary Matthews Jr? The only way I could have stomached this is if it was Castillo’s 12 million for Gary and 8 million, and then turn around and sign Kennedy/Lopez/Hudson for 3 million or less. At least that way you’d have upgraded in this process.
Gaaaah!!
Just clicked on to this!! Does Omar even consider acquiring players under 35??
Hey hey I got an idea. Lets play "I Never." You got to drink if you did the thing that the person says they never did...
And I thought Omar wasn't a problem
This money could be spent better in other places instead of taking back someone we supposedly rejected in a trade that would’ve moved Castillo. But, that’s just Omar being Omar.
Matthews as a CF
I’m not so sure we can assume he can handle CF. The list of 35-year olds who played competent (~-5 defense) CF is pretty small. GMJ is coming off of a few heavily-injured seasons as well; it looks much more likely that his range is only going downward before factoring in Citi’s size. Can’t see a position change being a silver lining.
by The nye mets are my favorite team on Jan 22, 2010 1:21 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Yup, and he has hardly been able to handle CF the last three seasons
UZR’s per 150 of -12.2, 8.6, and -37.8. The 8.6 is obviously promising and maybe the horrible, horrible showing last year was due to the knees. But eh, the age/surgery could easily cancel each other out and leave a huge negative UZR with this guy. That, coupled with his bat, = negative WAR. For a couple million and a serviceable reliever.
Ugh, this is what everyone complains about in regards to the 2 million dollars that Omar throws around at will. 2 million here, 2 million there, and then 2 million short (ish) on Pineiro. It’s a joke.
Sample size issues aside:
The rate at which physical skills like speed and acceleration decline with age should tell us that we shouldn’t expect much out of him. Throw out the UZR/150, since extrapolating a counting stat that doesn’t reach significance till 450 or so games is a bad idea. If we knew nothing about a player besides his age, injury history, and also that he has never been regarded as an elite defender (he’s never won a Gold Glove, for example), we would be safe in concluding that he’s not going to handle CF well at 35.
I’m not saying we should make decisions by those above standards, mind you; but there seems to be almost nothing out there that would support the idea that GMJ makes the Mets better.
by The nye mets are my favorite team on Jan 22, 2010 1:47 PM EST up reply actions
Gold Gloves are a joke, that's worse than judging a pitcher based on W-L.
Palmiero won one when he played 28 games in the field while serving as the Rangers primary DH.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 22, 2010 2:25 PM EST up reply actions
Awards like that are only for padding/justifying a Hall-of-Fame resume.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 22, 2010 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
I guess Gold Gloves are like steroids then.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 22, 2010 2:41 PM EST up reply actions
For those of you who are also Knicks fans, consider this...
At least Isaiah’s trades were legitimately short-sighted, meaning he usually walked away with more talent than he lost. (Of course salary cap consequences and future draft picks be damned.)
In this case we end up with a lesser player, when, as others have pointed out, better outfielders were available on the open market that would only cost money.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
Who is this Brian Stokes guy?
I’ve never heard of him.
You don't cheer for the Mets. You drink for the Mets.
I'm not sure who Stokes is either
I think you mean Darren O’Day. He was drafted in the Rule V and when we sent him down, the Rangers took him back. That’s probably who you mean.
"Three home teams advance, and the fuckin' Jets" - Rex Ryan
Oday came from the Angels.
The Rangers just claimed him on waivers when they were getting killed by reliever injuries. Probably a nicely timed break for them.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 22, 2010 3:50 PM EST up reply actions
bleh
thats all i have to say. if gary matthews plays 200 innings for us I’m becoming a pirates fan.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
battered wife syndrome
i just don’t know how to quit the mets
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
It's tougher
being a Knicks fan than a Met fan, although i truly believe thatll change in 2010
by MetsKnicksRutgers on Jan 22, 2010 1:50 PM EST up reply actions
Lets get Rodomski back in
Put this fool on the juice. Im gonna miss socks. Wonder what the fanpage now says
by MetsKnicksRutgers on Jan 22, 2010 1:46 PM EST reply actions
Dear God I didn't even read the bottom of the article
there’s TWO years left on his contract??
Omar please don’t do it man. I know there’s no way out of getting out of it for this year but man don’t do it to us for two years.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
Well..
its only 3 million for 2 years. I’m surprised the Angels ate that much.
by MetsKnicksRutgers on Jan 22, 2010 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
Stokes was going to cost about the same this year, so it's likely a wash salary wise
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 22, 2010 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah but stokes at least had a chance to be useful
GMjr has almost no chance.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
Ya never know
he could produce. There isnt much to complain about. Stokes’ may be a fan favorite but he really isn’t that good. I bet by my saying that though hes gonna pull an O’day on us in the OC
by MetsKnicksRutgers on Jan 22, 2010 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
yeah he could produce
and Jeff Franceour could become Albert Pujols, it’s just not likely.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
You need to read Metsmerized more often
You’ll come around.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 22, 2010 3:23 PM EST up reply actions
Stokes was serviciable.
He is/was a dependable reliever. He certainly didn’t suck. And, hell, he could have easily been used as a spot starter, like he was used in 2008.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 22, 2010 3:22 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah and considering our rotation depth
and that our bullpen is mostly a bunch of question marks/reclamation projects, it’s not like we’re trading from a position of strength.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
We don't really have a position of strength to deal from, though
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 22, 2010 3:26 PM EST up reply actions
1b?
You don’t consider the Carter/Evans/Murphy combo a juggernaut?
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
I would, if Jerry/Omar realized Nick Evans exists.
If they traded Murphy or Carter, we’d essentially be down to one 1B
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 22, 2010 3:27 PM EST up reply actions
Of course they know Nick Evans exists
he’s the guy that’s going to be catching in the bullpen now that Stokes is gone.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
Does that mean we'll be calling on him to pinch-hit in the 9th?
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 22, 2010 3:30 PM EST up reply actions
how swing isn't short enough
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
Everyone's a lightweight in comparison
Except Mo Vaughn.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 22, 2010 3:29 PM EST up reply actions
NNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 22, 2010 2:04 PM EST reply actions
Meh..
I liked Stokes, but he was probably the most easily replaceable guy we had in the bullpen. I’d rather have GMJ in the outfield than Reed or Sullivan. All said though, I’m kind of disappointed that this will probably mean Evans (I’ve heard he exists…) will not get a fair shake. If Matthews is halfway decent as a Met, his 1 million dollar salary may actually give him some good value next offseason.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 22, 2010 2:22 PM EST reply actions
Yuck.
My feelings on this one are a little mixed. On a neutral team, I actually don’t hate the trade completely. I’m not on the Stokes bandwagon, and I think there is little chance that he becomes anything more than an ok Roogy, one of the most replaceable bullpen pieces there is (we’ve now given away two in the last two offseasons, though). I was much more bummed out about losing O’Day last year than I am about Stokes now. And I don’t mind having a reclamation project on a team, especially guys coming off injuries, so I could live with the idea of having GMJ at 2M for 2 years, as a low risk, medium reward move since the commitment is so low. Especially if it’s a front-office I trust, I would go along with picking up a guy that I thought was garbage just because the FO might have demonstrated an ability to find guys.
But in this case, I’m disappointed. For a variety of reasons.
1) We have not demonstrated an ability to find diamonds in the washed-up-rough: none of those guys since Valentin and Kool-Aid Hernandez have turned out to be anything.
2) While I don’t mind an injury reclamation in general, I hate the idea of injury reclamation guys with out current medical staff. Yikes.
3) How many roster spots can you give to reclamation projects/guys you hope can be something someday, especially with a $140M payroll? I don’t mind having one, maybe two of those kinds of guys when your payroll is so high, but we now have Cora, Failcoeur, Matthews, Castillo, AND guys like Santos and Murphy who are still bottom third in the league at their position – how many guys can we have on the roster who look like bottom 5 guys at their position? If we didn’t already have those other guys, I don’t mind the Matthews move, since it would be one roster spot for a reclamation project, but at this point we need multiple success stories out of the group to not be awful. And at least Santos and Murphy are cheap as free: Cora, Failcoeur and Matthews actually cost multi-millions each.
4) I do not trust our leadership to pull the plug if/when this experiment proves not to work out. I can see Jerry running GMJ and these other guys out there day after day, even when it’s clear to everybody else in the universe they don’t have it anymore. On a team with a quality manager and GM, I would live with it because I know they’ll cut the cord when necessary, but I just don’t trust the Mets right now. And that sucks.
It’s the cumulative affect. This move is worse for the Mets than it would be for a lot of other teams just because of the situation of the team right now.
Especially agreed on Point 3
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 22, 2010 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
Matthews is only 1 million...he's the cheap one.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 22, 2010 2:48 PM EST up reply actions
Even with our medical staff*, I don't have that problems when a player is getting back from injury. The problem is, GM Jr has been awful for 3 plus years. He played injured during all those times? And he would suddenly become healthy and reproduce 2006?
*We joke about it, but I’m not convinced it’s our medical staff to blame. They might advise what is the best course of action but the staff kept giving straight cortisone shots to players.
Many people lobby for Sheets coming back from injury because it’s more feasible, since his track record has been more recent.
Agreed on the past 3 years
GMJ’s suckitude is a long-lasting condition at this point, just last year was an injury-issue. I guess my point is that sometimes, on rare occasions, guys do come back from these kinds of periods, but we have too many other probably-terrible players to take a chance on another. On a “safer” roster, you can take the flyer, that maybe he miraculously finds it again, and cut the cord if he doesn’t. That is not what our roster is right now.
We need more sure things, or if we’re gonna take a risk, do it with young guys, not more old reclamation projects.
Especially agreed on point 4.
I can imagine Jerry giving GMJ the starting job if Pagan has a bad first week.
by pologroundling on Jan 22, 2010 2:54 PM EST up reply actions
Remember when
we had Julio Franco on the roster for a full year and a half?
I've enjoyed this thread
I love how for a whole chunk of it in the middle, the left side of the screen is just white because the whole conversation has been forced into the little boxes on the right.
Very entertaining.
"Three home teams advance, and the fuckin' Jets" - Rex Ryan
I wonder what happens if you try to stick a big image in there...
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 22, 2010 3:06 PM EST up reply actions
Somehow you just caused David Wright's computer to explode, giving him a slight cut on his hand requiring medical attention.
The Mets doctors will fail to wash their hands prior to treatmen, causing Wright’s hand to become infected and miss the season. The Mets will try to force him to play through it, and his weakend grip on the bat will cause him to lose it and have it hit Jose Reyes and then Ricochet into Fernando Martinez. Both will suffer season ending injuries and the MSM will call for the Mets to get grittier. Omar will finally heed the calls and trade the pair for David Eckstein and Bengie Molina, which will finally allow us to win a world series. Thanks for saving the franchise.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 22, 2010 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
Was talking the other day with...
a Pirates fan, and he said to me, “the difference between a Pirate and Met fan, is that at least as a Pirates fan, we expect for crappy deals and a last place finish. Mets fans have to endure the hope that things will get better just to be disappointed by crappy deals and poor play. I do not envy you.”
Lol, this is the funniest thing, on the Angels' blog:
Brian Socks seems to be heading here
I would assume that if Minor league players are involved. We’d be sending Wilson/Budde over to them, and hopefully net some of the Mets good prospects. I would say maybe two top 20 prospects.
by Slyintine on Jan 22, 2010 12:10 PM EST
Fail, Stokes.
by Slyintine on Jan 22, 2010 12:10 PM EST
The middle ground here, if he is bad, is “Stucks”.
by Stirrups on Jan 22, 2010 12:42 PM EST
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 22, 2010 3:12 PM EST reply actions
I sure hope that happens.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 22, 2010 3:17 PM EST up reply actions
Somebody who can post over there (I have to wait a day)
should link them Sam’s hilarious article A Day in the Life of Brian Stokes. Maybe preface it with that Jerry rarely used him early in the season, and that he’s somewhat of a fan favorite around here. If they have any sense of humor, they’ll get a kick out of it.
"Three home teams advance, and the fuckin' Jets" - Rex Ryan
Nah, screw them.
Let them learn of Socks’ greatness themselves.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 22, 2010 3:23 PM EST up reply actions
I love how you talk about fans of another team like they are a different species
Gas prices today are a lot like a pitcher's ERA. Anything under 3 is amazing, under 4 is pretty good and anything 5 and up is something you want to avoid.
by Bobby Baseball on Jan 22, 2010 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
Done
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 22, 2010 4:15 PM EST up reply actions
Almost 600 posts over this deal ?
it’s been a looooong cold lonely winter.
you know what I'm sayin' ?
by fxcarden on Jan 22, 2010 3:26 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Will said he was get another one together around the start of ST
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
Considering the potential disaster that is Omar making trades, and it wasn't even with his approved trading partners, at least we traded a reliever.
No prospects used, no position players or SP used.
Ehh..
Even if we cut him it’s only 1 million. At this point in the offseason that shouldn’t be enough to stop us from signing anybody.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 22, 2010 3:46 PM EST up reply actions
His bat was less valuable as a corner outfielder, but his bat alone would have had some positive value.
It was his defense that dropped him below replacement level. Hopefully he’s used properly he’s mostly a pinch hitter, allowing us to get some value from him. As long as he’s the 5th of after Beltran returns he’s probably going to have limited positive value.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 22, 2010 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
You're right it could be worse
but the fact they traded a controllable for a completely useless player doesn’t exactly give me much faith in their thought processes.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
Would've much preferred
That 3.25M deal KC gave Ankiel. That that signing comes the same day makes this deal look stupid.
Omar pulls ahead of (or is it behind) Dayton Moore in the race to the bottom.
But I still like Sabean as a dark horse.
I don't think Sabean is the darkhorse
I think Sabean is the throne holder. Moore and Omar are battling for second place.
like i know the media’s forgotten about it, but they’re still paying zito 18 million for the next like 40 years.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
Yea probably. Everyone talks about that Colon for Sizemore, Phillips, Lee, etc. trade
but at least Omar had the mitigating circumstance of possible contraction in Montreal. The Pierzynski for Nathan, Liriano, etc. is probably the 2nd worst trade in recent memory and Sabean only has his stupidity to blame.
he got lucky that the twins overworked liriano and broke him
or that trade would look even more God awful than it already does.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
The Tex and Bedard trades could easily eclipse both.
Those packages were beyond insane, and there’s still a bunch of talent from those trades coming through.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 22, 2010 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah but Tex
was WAY more valuable than Pierzynski, and before the market collapsed Altanta had a legit chance to resign him, or at least flip him for an equally insane prospect package. but once the economy collapsed the market for Tex went with it.
The Bedard trade on the other hand…yeah that’s probably why Bavasi no longer is employed.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
I don't know, after Tex turned down 8/160 from the Rangers I don't think anyone thought the Braves could re-sign him.
They were pretty far back and had a ton of injuries when they made that trade, it seemed like a pretty questionable one at the time.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 22, 2010 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
I'm pretty certain Tex's reasons for turning down the rangers offer
had more to do with the rangers consistently being bottom feeders at the time and less to do with money. Plus from what I remember around the 08 trade deadline they were hoping to trade tex for prospects and flip the prospects for Jason bay, who would be being paid well below his value and affordable for them, but once the market collapsed no one was willing to give up prospects for Tex when they couldn’t afford to resign him.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
Yeah but they were getting Tex for a year and a half at least.
That Bedard trade, though, is indeed horrific.
I'd give it to Moore.
As bad as Sabean is, at least he does well in the draft. Moore has been going way over-slot lately and still doesn’t seem to be finding talent.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 22, 2010 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
KC actually does pretty well in the draft
they’ve just gotten sort of unlucky that some big time “no miss” guys in the draft, ended up missing, and they had a lot of big time prospects that put up the numbers all the way through the minors and then for some reason just couldn’t click at the major league level, which is sort of just bad luck of the draw when it comes to prospects.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
I'm just talking since Moore took over.
They’ve been HUGE spenders, and most of the guys they’ve drafted are looking more like busts than anything.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 22, 2010 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
Everybody
dumped on me for suggesting Rick Ankiel could be a valuable member of the NY Mets. Now everybody wants him (except the Stasche- he must have been a Joel Youngblood man), so let’s get it right. Sign Blalock and Hudson.
Lead, follow, or get out of the way
Amkiel wouldn't be valuable,
we just acquired the only possible worse alternative.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 23, 2010 7:36 AM EST up reply actions
haha you just don't let it go do you
not my fault you don’t appreciate humor. I didn’t think anybody would take my suggestion of adding Ankeil to the pitching rotation seriously.
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 23, 2010 1:04 PM EST up reply actions
46 backloaded wins can't hurt.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 23, 2010 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
this is totally random
but i feel like pouring salt in all our wounds. remember when andrew jones signed for like 1 million or 500 k earlier in the off-season?
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
I was thinking about that before
Also thinking about how signing Corey Sullivan to a minor league deal was probably at least as effective in finding someone to take on some of Beltran’s PAs early in the season as Matthews, and how we complained about he cost 600,00k last year when Jones got just 500,00k this year.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 22, 2010 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
We should have a tryout
I’m halfway serious
by James Kannengieser on Jan 22, 2010 4:10 PM EST up reply actions
make sure to get dirt on your jersey
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 22, 2010 4:20 PM EST up reply actions
I'll do it. I don't have medical insurance, so I figure, what the hell, the Mets' training staff has got to be better than nothing, right?
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 22, 2010 6:35 PM EST up reply actions
Ask Keith's Mustache in a few months
If he can still speak
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 23, 2010 2:29 AM EST up reply actions
no promises
although give the state of the Mets, I hope their medical staff is good at liver transplants.
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 23, 2010 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, try to avoid the Gary, Ron and Keith Drinking Game...
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 23, 2010 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
Something tells me they're not.
They’d probably accidentally give you Keith Richards’ liver by mistake.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 24, 2010 1:56 AM EST up reply actions
after this last season
it might be an upgrade still.
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 24, 2010 2:30 PM EST up reply actions
I don't mind getting Matthews, and even giving up Socks doesn't seem like that bad of a deal
But I can’t believe that Omar rejected the Castillo/Matthews deal. We could have signed Lopez and Hudson and made our infield defesne so much better.
Gas prices today are a lot like a pitcher's ERA. Anything under 3 is amazing, under 4 is pretty good and anything 5 and up is something you want to avoid.
Since they're not going to cut him
now we have to see GMJ and Castillo.
God I can’t wait for those nights when Coras at ss, castillos at second and gmj’s in center, talk about up the middle defense.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
we'd see the first bunt in the park home run right up the middle
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 22, 2010 4:15 PM EST up reply actions
I think that was the same game as his walkoff intangible
by dtro on Jan 22, 2010 4:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Makes me wonder what the worst but still reasonable lineup
is going to be next year
Reyes ss
Cora 2b
Murphy 3b
Bay lf
Francoeur rf
Carter 1b
Matthews cf
Santos c
Misch p
I would have written in someone other than Reyes on the assumption that he won’t play more than 140 games, but I don’t think we have a backup shortstop. (Subbing Murphy for Wright seems reasonable. God, after DDub’s brain injury I hope they don’t wreck his brilliant career by trying to get 155 games out of him.)
Do we have a backup SS? I’ve heard that’s kind of important when your starter started three games last year.
by SeanSchirmer on Jan 23, 2010 3:39 AM EST up reply actions
Somehow, I see..
Carter being more valuable than Murphy this year…
Lead, follow, or get out of the way
We can certainly do worse
Pagan LF
Castillo 2B
Murphy 3B
Francoeur RF
Carter 1B
Matthews CF
Santos C
Cora SS
Ollie P
Cora will be the backup SS and A-Hern the back-backup SS.
Or give up a HR.
Chicks dig the long ball…
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 22, 2010 3:55 PM EST up reply actions
I really don't get this
How is it not a better deal to keep Castillo than to lose him and eat his salary?
It's not, swapping him for a useful bad contract would have been a good idea.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 22, 2010 3:48 PM EST up reply actions
I think the term sunk cost
would apply here.
by Mackey Sasser on Jan 22, 2010 6:36 PM EST up reply actions
Also
did I see advice dog while i was scrolling through the like 300 comments on the side.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
I just read this whole thread
Listen, I am all for a diversity of opinion, but if people insist on using outdated stats to back up their arguments then they should’nt be acknowledged. Its not like the new stats are hard to follow and use. WOBA looks like on-base percentage. WAR is simple, the higher the number the better. wCR+ works like OPS+, UZR for all it faults is still better than nothing. FIP and TRA look like ERA. Its not like they have to do any of the math or actually derive the formula.
There are plenty of places on the web and in the “real” world where you can say WINZ, SAVZ , RIBZ and RINGZ. I come here because I am sick of that argument as are at least 90 percent of the members of Amazin Avenue. If they arent going to meets us halfway there should be no reason why we should bother to debate them.
by aparkermarshall on Jan 22, 2010 3:54 PM EST reply actions
Then...
can I at least get a reference point? I have been trying to figure sabermetrics out for a long time now. I think I got WAR down, but wCR+, FIP, TRA, WINZ, SAVZ, etc, they look weird to me, almost likely they were just created out of thin air. I do my best to follow, but someone has to throw a bone here and there. I think I saw Wright is projected as a 5.0 WAR and someone else a -1.1 WAR. What is, say Holliday? Or someone else who is usually projected as an All Star? Is there somewhere I can go that can explain these to me, without a masters degree in statisitcs?
by CCE718 on Jan 22, 2010 4:01 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
fangraphs has some useful primers
Also an allstar is usually around 4.0 WAR. league average players are usually around 2.0 WAR. baseball stat corner has a primer explaining tra, and another blog here, beyond the boxscore, has a lot of articles explaining some of the more complicated stats in depth. but like aparker said once you understand what they’re measuring most of them look close enough to similar more popular stats that they become pretty easy to understand.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
And Albert Pujols
is what you get when you divide any WAR number by 0
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
"WINZ" and "SAVZ" were, actually, created out of thin air
The other stuff is pretty much all available for perusal at FanGraphs, and explained in their excellent glossary.
WINZ and SAVZ look weird to me too
You don't cheer for the Mets. You drink for the Mets.
You have to understand the stats to use them.
What if someone knows that having a high UZR is good but they know that absolutely nothing about what its good for? They might say to get someone with a high UZR “because his UZR is higher than Wright’s so he is a better hitter”.
Or what if someone knows it is good to have a low FIP but they don’t know what it means? “We should get scrub because his FIP is better than Satntana’s, so he will pitch a bunch of innigs”.
Gas prices today are a lot like a pitcher's ERA. Anything under 3 is amazing, under 4 is pretty good and anything 5 and up is something you want to avoid.
by Bobby Baseball on Jan 22, 2010 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
I completely agree with this point
It’s better when people avoid using terms that they do not completely understand.
anytime i have not understood a stat
on this site, i simply ask about them
and normally receive some simple, well thought out answers along with more then a few links. I have never been ridiculed for not knowing.
If you dont know about something just ask. People here like to talk about it. Ignorance is not an excuse, its just being lazy.
"If they arent going to meets us halfway there should be no reason why we should bother to debate them."
I think that’s the wrong attitude to take to be perfectly honest
For me, it's not the use of traditional statistics
But more when someone comes in and responds to an argument citing wOBA or UZR or whatever with, “I don’t know or care what any of that means and thus you’ve proved nothing to me.” It inevitably devolves into, well, this thread. Not everyone has a good grasp on what the more advanced metrics are or what they are about and, hey, that’s fine. But if it ends up turning the thread into bombs dropping all over the place then, well, I say ‘fuck it.’
In other words, just don’t feed the trolls. Thank you.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jan 22, 2010 4:13 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, I agree
I don’t really care if people construct arguments I consider ill-informed or subpar, as long as they’re willing to listen to reason and acknowledge other facts and positions. What pushes behavior into troll territory, in my book, is outright head-in-the-sand denials — “your facts don’t mean anything, here’s my opinion!” — and refusals to respond in good faith and consistency, the constant fabrication of new arguments that flatly contradict the arguments of five minutes ago, apparently just for the purpose of getting one more “contrarian” rise out of people.
And I actually was praising Omar
and I missed 633 comments
DAMN YOU OMAR
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
Whats the complete deal?
Is it just Stokes for Matthews Jr?
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
That's it from all reports.
The Halo’s are paying all but 2 mill.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 22, 2010 4:18 PM EST up reply actions
well
that was a pretty nice catch. just sayin.
by njk237 on Jan 22, 2010 4:30 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
ugh. Since I started rooting in 92 I don't remember an off-season with such little hope for the following yr
I’ve been fully gearing up for 2011.
How naseuating is it to root for a team with Castillo, Mathews JR, Ollie P and K-Rod
Could this be the logic ?.
Trade Stokes for Matthews to get a backup CF, and open up a spot in the bullpen…..
Sign Sheets or Garland, and move Maine to Stokes’ old spot in the bullpen.
you know what I'm sayin' ?
I like the premise of that idea
But, couldn’t the Mets have found a better option than Matthews Jr, and possibly done it earlier in the offseason? I’m basing that last part on the belief that Omar & Co. rejected Matthews earlier if I remember the hot stove correctly.
I don't know if they rejected him
there was a 4 team deal in place that would have sent him to us and no one really knos why it fell apart.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
1 problem
is GMJ is an awful awful awful option for back up CF, and we have enough question marks in the bullpen that they could have moved Maine there without moving Stokes. And they could have signed Brynes, or Ankiel to be much better options.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
Is Rocco Baldelli still out there?
The last I heard of him was about his mitochondrial disease being treatable. That wouldn’t be a bad avenue to turn to. Or maybe Endy when he heals from his injury.
Coming this April, fun times with Jeff and Gary!
he's still available
and i’d really have liked to see them sign him instead.
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 23, 2010 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
I'm curious to see if this means Pagan is on his way out.
I have a feeling someone’s gonna fleece Omar.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 22, 2010 5:12 PM EST reply actions
I wouldn't put it past them
Watching SNY now has got me thinking if they’d move him, they’d get credit for getting players with more “baseball IQ.”
Even some of the SNY guys were leery of Matthews.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 22, 2010 6:38 PM EST up reply actions
I noticed that too
But when it came to Pagan, the old “Pagan is a stupid baseball player based on a few baserunning mistakes” routine came out.
They only have flashes of clarity, then.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 23, 2010 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
Omar getting fleeced?
Or Omar feeling that he’s just acquired a good enough player to justify Pagan and prospects for Arroyo?
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 22, 2010 5:14 PM EST reply actions
Reply fail
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 22, 2010 5:15 PM EST up reply actions
Uh-oh
“Matthews wanted to be traded to a team that would allow him to start, and the Mets, at least temporarily, can offer him that assurance.”
“He’s a very versatile player,” general manager Omar Minaya said on a conference call Friday afternoon. “I felt just that with Carlos being out, it’s an opportunity to get a guy that’s versatile, and a guy that in our ballpark can play all outfield positions. I just feel that versatility is important, and to be able to get a guy like him on board — with Carlos or without Carlos — I think it just makes our team better.”
seconded
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Jan 22, 2010 8:01 PM EST up reply actions
Sky Kalkman invoking the Francoeur principle.
Even if he’s virtually free
I don’t see the logic in acquiring GMJ.
He’s legitimately terrible.
by FloridaownsFSU on Jan 22, 2010 6:17 PM ARST reply actions 0 recs
I disagree based on the Jeff Francoeur principle.
Anyone may repeat their glory days at any time.
by Sky Kalkman on Jan 22, 2010 8:00 PM ARST up reply actions 0 recs
BtB
This "Francoeur principle," what is it?
Is that something I’d have to listen to more WFAN to understand?
Like he said "Anyone may repeat their glory days at any time."
I would add “Based on small sample size, hot streak, luck-inflated BABIB and grission (influence fan perception)”
Seeing as how I still listen to WFAN for some reason
let me attempt to define the Francoeur principle. It’s the notion that a player who brings “intangibles” to the table such as youth, leadership, grit & passion(grission if you will) will have a great year based on those characteristics and the fact that Sky Kallahan alludes to " Anyone may repeat their glory days at any time." The glory days will stay with us because we see the player have a WebGem or play with a broken thumb & we think that he’s a keeper. We discount trends because we saw the glory and refuse to acknowledge a downward spiral. They see the numbers reach a different conclusion than theirs & say “You don’t watch baseball”(per baseball genius Adam Schien & Emmy award-winning broadcaster Chris Carlin). In closing, use this motto when explaining trends to those who try to discount the facts you present when discussing players: “And even with my logic & theory, I add a motherfucker so you ignant ni**as hear me”(Lauryn Hill, Zealots).
- I hope that provided some form of edutainment *
I was kidding.
I find it funny how many people think Francoeur’s primed for a breakout based on 274 PAs in 2005. Sure, he might have the talent, but it’s more like a 95/5 proposition than a 50/50 proposition like many make it out to be.
So, my point was that GMJ is pretty bad, and really the only thing in his “favor” is that he once had a good year, ala Frenchy.
(Happened to find this post while searching for where I won the bet with firejerrymanuel about Sheffield’s second half performance last year… just found it.)
Beyond the Boxscore Not a member? Sign up.
Guys I'd rather see on the 25-man roster than Matthews
Chris Carter
That other AAA power hitter they acquired (his name escapes me right now)
F-Mart
Nieuwenhuis
Evans
Randy Winn
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
GET THAT VORP AND WHIP SH!T OUTTA HERE!!!
Whomever Sabean signs this off-season will make a good platoon partner with Ryan Gark-ohh... nevermind...
Brian Stokes
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 22, 2010 7:06 PM EST up reply actions
who?
Brain Socks would be nice though.
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 23, 2010 1:09 PM EST up reply actions
Cannonglaster
and people
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
my cat
who only has one eye and lacks opposable thumbs.
by pologroundling on Jan 23, 2010 2:55 AM EST up reply actions
we thought Piniero and Socks would be on the same team
just not the los angeles anaheim angels of Disney Land and Southern Cali
Unbelievable.
This is voluntarily-acquiring-Yuniesky-Betancourt bad. With Beltran out of the lineup Matthews is the fourth OFer. He’s sub replacement level bad and can no longer play CF acc to every known defensive metric. You don’t pick up a guy like him when he’s been DFAed, let alone spend $1.5m per year and give up a useful part for him.
And we have him for two years!
but he played CF at one point
Omar is probably thinking he now has a 3 CF outfield with GMjr, Bay and Pagan.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
Matthews Jr is making $1.5 m in total, or $750,000 over 2 years
This was a bad trade, but it definitely doesn’t approach Betancourt levels.
plus they gave up a legit prospect for betancourt didn't they?
like a top ten/15 guy?
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
Yeah, Daniel Cortes
We gave up Brian Stokes, who is a nice guy, and while he did pitch decently last year, his peripherals were horrible, and massive regression could only be expected for this year.
Keep in mind, I’m not defending the trade at all: GMJ is arguably the worst player in baseball, and you could have just signed anyone off the FA market, and they would likely do a much better job.
This is a bad trade, but it’s of likely little consequence.
I disagree about the of little consequence
since 1. it shows no improvement in the ability to value/evaluate talent in the front office
2. we’re actually going to have Gary Matthews Jr on our field, by choice.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
That's what I dislike the most.
Stokes, yeah, he was a fringe player, for the most part, and isn’t/wasn’t an integral part of the team. In trading for Matthews, who basically NOBODY is defending, shows that the front office still has it’s head up it’s butt. The fact that we’re getting him for very little is the only silver lining in the whole thing. We could have very easlily signed a FA, or promoted a AAA guy, or something cheap(er) to fill in the depth-chart while Beltran is gone.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 23, 2010 1:12 AM EST up reply actions
I tried reading this thread backwards
but we still seem to be acquiring Sarge Lite.
Not a trade that will hurt too much
But certainly not one that has much potential. You lose a quality reliever in Stokes and get a guy that is worse than a random guy off the scrap heap (referring to his WAR). At least they aren’t paying him much of anything.
"If A.J. is not on your team, you hate him. If A.J. is on your team, you hate him less."
-Ozzie Guillen
You know how to tell when a trade sucks?
WHEN SUE SIMMONS, THE LOCAL NEWS ANCHOR, THINKS IT SUCKS!
by Syler on Jan 22, 2010 11:41 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I KNOW!
She said she preferred Pagan, but the dumbass sports guys said “Pagan makes mistakes on the base paths” and then she said “All I know is he can hit well and field well.” This was her reaction upon hearing the trade.
"Three home teams advance, and the fuckin' Jets" - Rex Ryan
by Evan_S on Jan 23, 2010 12:14 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
We should lobby her into Mets front office, you know?
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 23, 2010 1:10 AM EST up reply actions
the fuck are you doing?
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Jan 23, 2010 11:22 AM EST up reply actions
Stupidity rules
again. The only way Omar should have tested the waters with GMj was if Castillo was the guy going west. Stokes did a serviceable job, and is certainly better than what Omar plans on replacing him with (old guys, like Dessens and Dickey). Should the season progress as we wish (Beltran getting healthy, Bay and Frenchy performing), then what do you do with Matthews? I liked GMj when the Mets had him as a younger player, but he wants to start. If he is better than his competition, so be it, but he won’t be. Maybe if he could play 1B, but he can’t. We should be stocking up on Stokes’, and getting rid of the "guys that once may have been good’.
Lead, follow, or get out of the way
You wont say that after Dickey wins the cy young
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 23, 2010 2:11 AM EST up reply actions
I don't know why everyone's down on Dickey (no pun intended).
He’s certainly no Tim Wakefield, but he has a few things going for him:
A) The more he’s concentrated on his knuckleball, the progressively better he’s gotten. There’s no reason to assume that he won’t get marginally better again in 2010.
B) He’s a new pitcher coming into the league. When that happens, it’s always an advantage to the pitcher.
C) Building on both of those, he’s a knuckleballer coming into the National League. I don’t believe that there are any knucklers in all of the NL, nor can I remember there being any in my (relatively short, I’ll admit) ‘baseball lifetime’. Hell, he threw a seven-innings of shut out ball against US in 2008- back then, we were still relatively good and all…
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 23, 2010 2:21 AM EST up reply actions
im not down on dickey
im a big fan
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
hahahahah
you’re a big fan of dickey
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Jan 23, 2010 6:27 AM EST up reply actions
I love innuendo.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 23, 2010 1:31 PM EST up reply actions
Sending Dickey when Wang can't finish would be nice.
Sheets will hate that though…
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 23, 2010 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
Hopefully Diceky and Wang aren't Jewish
Because then they’d have to cut a hole in Sheets
(Sorry for perpetuating a false stereotype)
"Three home teams advance, and the fuckin' Jets" - Rex Ryan
If Dickey and Wang are Jewish, they'll have holes in their game?
I don’t know. It’s hard to make circumcision jokes…
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 23, 2010 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe they'll be a bit snippy?
won’t be able to keep their heads in the game?
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
Well
They won’t have any protection for their heads when they’re hitting
"Three home teams advance, and the fuckin' Jets" - Rex Ryan
I want to make a Kunz joke here,
but I got nothing at the moment.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 24, 2010 1:59 AM EST up reply actions
Did somebody ask for a circumcision joke?
A woman walks into a store with a clock in the window and asks the man there if he could fix her watch. The man replies, “I’m sorry, ma’am, but I don’t fix watches. I’m a mohel (person who performs ritual circumcisons).” The woman asks, “If you’re a mohel, why do you have a clock in your window?” And the man replies, “What SHOULD I put in the window?”
Thank you. I’ll be here all week.
"I've been trying transcendental meditation, and that helps me be passive and wait on the curve. I've got to find something else to hit the slider." - George (The Stork) Theodore
Actually, I have no problem
with a knuckler, but the question is, who catches him? Or was that the reason Luke Montz was signed?
Lead, follow, or get out of the way
Can't even say that Josh Bard is availible. The Mariners snatched him up.
It really doesn’t make a difference who catches him, because, asides for Bard (who sucked at it, anyway), and Variteck, who’s not available, I don’t know any catchers who have any experience whatsoever with the knuckleball. Just like most of the batters in the league.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 23, 2010 1:35 PM EST up reply actions
I think Kottaras did.
But if Omar wasn’t interested when he was practically free, he’s not going to give the Brewers anything for him.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 24, 2010 1:58 AM EST up reply actions
I knew they would trade the only thing I liked about this franchise
Angel Pagan > Gary Matthews
Socks > Nobody
I hate this Front Office. Thank god for Rex Ryan.
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but Jerry abuses the privilege.
Good thing the Bills are...oh...wait...their front office sucks as bad as the Mets.
At least they ended the season by firing every single member of the front office and coaching staff.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 23, 2010 2:12 AM EST up reply actions
yeah but then they hired chan gailey
which is like waiving the white flag on the entire decade.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
Holy Shit MLB.com used UZR
His ultimate zone rating, a defensive metric used to determine how many runs a player either saves or gives away in the field, fell steadily from 15.5 in 2005 to -14.5 in ’09.
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
A step in the right direction.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 23, 2010 1:30 PM EST up reply actions
apparently the entire world has taken that step
except the mets front office.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
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