Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Ohio State And Florida Target 2013 Receiver Recruits

Omir Santos Should Be the No. 1...In Buffalo

Jerry Manuel hinted at the Mets starting catcher today, and consistent with his previous personnel decisions and general philosophies about baseball, he was wrong.  Omir Santos hit perhaps the least likely seven homeruns in Mets history last season, but that doesn't warrant a starting gig, even among the in-house options. Consider these CHONE projections for wOBA:

The Mets will probably send Josh Thole to the Chris Coste catching clinic in AAA, which leaves a simple choice between offensively identical players, Blanco and Santos. Neither can hit very well, Blanco is old and lacks contact skills, but had the better season last year. On the opposite end of the spectrum, Santos swings freely at fastballs, rarely walking, but connecting for the occasional homerun. Strictly choosing a hitter, Blanco's track record and more stable plate discipline outweighs Omir's illusory clutch hitting (actually -2 runs in the clutch, per fangraphs). 

That leaves a simple question: "who is the better fielder?", which really is no a question at all. At 38, Blanco probably can't and won't catch a full season or even the majority of the reps, but if someone has to hold Thole's seat before a midseason call-up it should be Blanco, with Santos a step away from AAA.

Comment 49 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Agreed

I didn’t see anything I liked from Santos except the occasional big home run. I thought he ran badly, had bad instincts, didn’t play a great game behind the plate and most of the time didn’t hit very well.

Honestly, if it’s going to come to that, I’d rather get Thole up here and let him learn at this level. He’ll learn the Mets pitchers, he’ll have the benefit of major league experience, and he probably won’t hit worse than Santos or Blanco. If he looks completely lost in May/June, then fine, explore bringing up Coste or Santos, but from what we saw of him last year, I don’t think that’ll be the case.

-Ceetar, the Optimistic Mets Fan

by Ceetar on Jan 25, 2010 2:13 PM EST reply actions  

Lots of problems, and the solution is a year away

That’s really the team of the 2010 Mets, isn’t it?

Omir Santos isn’t the solution at catcher, but Josh Thole needs a year at AAA.

Daniel Murphy isn’t the solution at first, but Ike Davis needs a year at AAA.

Something about GMJr and Fartinez needing a year in AAA.

Maybe something about Alex Cora or Luis Castillo and Reese Havens needing a year in AAA.

And definitely something about Oliver Perez and Jon Niese needing a year at AAA.

by Dan Lewis on Jan 25, 2010 2:14 PM EST reply actions  

Assuming all those prospects become better players than their placeholders...

I’d also say Pagan is blocking F-Mart; if he hits GMJ won’t and shouldn’t stand in his way. Right now I’d say Havens and Thole are at least as good as Castillo and Santos respectively, while Davis might be no better than Murphy now and Perez/Niese a wash.

by Sam Page on Jan 25, 2010 2:17 PM EST up reply actions  

You might be right, but its tough to say Havens is better than Castillo already

You know I love the kid, but lets see some PAs above HiA first. On the flipside, promoting Ruben Tejada this year if necessary wouldn’t be quite so egregious. Starting a light hitting 19 year old’s clock would have been a mistake last year, it would probably still be a mistake this year, but significantly less so.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 25, 2010 2:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Gotta disagree on Havens at his point...He's still a long way from ready.

I’d even have him behind Tejada at this point.

"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green

by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 25, 2010 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

In terms of what?

Havens’ upside blows Tejada out of the water. Tejada’s younger, played at a higher level, and better defensively, which might appear to make him the better prospect, but Havens has the upside edge in virtually every offensive category and despite playing a level lower is well ahead of Tejada in many already. Don’t forget, in terms of offensive numbers, the FSL and EL play pretty similarly, its just that the former is because of park factors and the latter because of more advanced pitching. I can’t wait to see them playing next to each other up the middle next year in Bingo, assuming the Mets don’t go crazy and throw Tejada into Triple-A.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 25, 2010 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Ah, fair enough, that I definitely agree with

Tejada should have some immediate defensive value either way, Havens needs to see more advanced pitching before testing him in the majors makes sense.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 25, 2010 3:53 PM EST up reply actions  

My point is that 2010 doesn't matter much anymore, and we should keep the '11s in AAA

We’re not going to be good next year. We’ll probably grade out to 81-85 wins using 60+WAR, and that gives us an outside chance of competing for a playoff spot, using Bob Uecker as our dictionary for the word “outside.”

The guys I mention, for 2010, are maybe an incremental two wins. Maybe. As you said, Murph/Davis and Niese/Perez are probably a wash; FMart is blocked; and I think your take on Havens right now is optimistic. Keeping as many of them in AAA as possible is a good thing.

by Dan Lewis on Jan 25, 2010 2:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I agree

Let Jerry start as many terrible players as he wants in 2010. With any luck, he and Omar will be fired, Francoeur will be non-tendered, and we’ll have a healthy, decent roster in 2011.

Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.

by Greenpoint Ian on Jan 26, 2010 12:10 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't think Niese needs a year at Triple-A

It may be wise to start him there anyway, but in terms of development, he’s far enough along to be called a major league pitcher. Unlike the rest of the pairs you mentioned, Niese probably is already better than Ollie, and he has more refinement left than hard development. The rest are much more questionable, though some are close.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 25, 2010 2:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Why should Niese spend any time at AAA?

IIRC, his last 6-7 starts at Buffalo were lights out; he has nothing left to learn or prove at that level. Now, he may wash out in the bigs, but all that would mean is that he’s a AAAA pitcher, not that he was rushed through AAA. My prediction, though, is that given 30 starts with the Mets, he’d be close to league average. Not bad for a 5th starter and probably better than Perez could deliver.

by madisonmetsfan on Jan 25, 2010 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I completely agree with the projection

But I can think of two reasons to leave him in Triple-A:

1. Depth. He’s the only guy with options, so if you can bring in someone better, having him as insurance in Triple-A would be a good thing. He offsets some injury risk and he’s almost certainly still going to be needed at some point anyway.

2. Delay his service time. This shouldn’t be a huge concern for a team like the Mets if they’re actually in “win-now” mode. But they could essentially save a year of team control if they wait long enough, and its not entirely clear they can win now. In this regard, starting him in Triple-A also makes sense, I think its DanDot’s thinking. If the team is firmly in the hunt once the weather warms up, then you call him up, especially if someone gets injured or is struggling. If they’re not, delaying his service time becomes a more tempting idea.

The biggest problem with this thinking is that 2010 is also his last option year. You don’t want to go into next year unsure of exactly what Niese is capable of. That just leads to more difficult decisions next offseason. So ideally the team can find the right balance where they can leave him down long enough to delay his service time but also call him up early enough to get some value out of him this year and to figure out more precisely how effective he can be.

Niese currently has 107 days of MLB service time (per Cot’s). Lets assume once he comes up, he doesn’t go back down, and that he pitches effectively enough to keep his roster spot for his team-controlled years. That means if he earns 72 days of service time or less this year, he’ll be under team control for an extra year, since he’ll only have 179 days of total service time going into 2011, 180 days=1 year, and players can’t earn more than 180 days per year. The downside is he’ll definitely be a Super 2, even if he’s just a September callup, so he’ll get an extra year of arbitration. So for financial reasons, the ideal time to call him up is towards the end of July. If they call him up between July 24 and July 26, they can have him get two starts in before the trade deadline and delay his service time enough to get the extra year, so that’s what I’d aim for. Either way he’ll go to arbitration in 2013, but if you wait until at least July 24 to call him up, you’ll get an extra non-guaranteed arbitration year in 2016, whereas if you call him up earlier, he’ll be a Free Agent after 2015.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 25, 2010 3:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually, scratch that, he may have another option year

I forgot he wasn’t called up until September in 2008, so I guess that means he wasn’t optioned that year? Not entirely sure, but that’s my guess. Still doesn’t change the point that much, it’d be good to know what you have going into 2011, but if he has another option its a bit less pressing.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 25, 2010 4:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I have to agree

Give Blanco the majority of the catching duties, with Santos serving as his back-up. Thole, it’ll probably be best for him to stay in the Minors, where he can get some everyday playing under his belt. As it is right now, he might be better than Santos, but I wouldn’t want to potentially stunt his development by putting him on the Majors roster where he’ll be playing, say, 33% of the time, instead of 80% of the time.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 25, 2010 2:16 PM EST reply actions  

my thoughts exactly

I’d rather see Thole get the development he needs so when he comes up, its for good, and he can serve as the teams starting catcher. Bringing him up for a handful of starts scattered between a few catchers just robs him of play time unless they’re going to dedicate catching duties to him 100%, which I don’t think he’s ready for.

by KeithsMoustache on Jan 25, 2010 2:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Keep in mind Blanco probably shouldn't play more than every other day,

or two days in a row, at most. Iirc he played 90 then 80 games over the last two years. If you try to get even 110 games out of him you risk losing him for the season.

by SeanSchirmer on Jan 25, 2010 5:56 PM EST up reply actions  

It's kind of weird

we traded Castro for the same reason, and to save money, and then brought in someone exactly like him for the same price?

"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'

it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.

by Gina on Jan 25, 2010 6:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Castro was making 2.625 million...

Blanco is making 750,000

"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green

by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 25, 2010 8:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I seem to remember us eating his salary too.

So I honestly think Omar just preferred Santos and was worried about placing him on waivers.

"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green

by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 25, 2010 8:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Stupid Schneider being in the way.

Mind you, I didn’t particularly like Castro, but I’d rather have Castro than Santos.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 25, 2010 11:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought Blanco was making more

I must have confused him with Coste, wasn’t he making 1.5 million.

"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'

it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.

by Gina on Jan 25, 2010 8:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Coste is making 650,000

And I believe it was agreed that he’d accept an opening day assignment to the minors as part of the deal.

"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green

by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 25, 2010 8:41 PM EST up reply actions  

oh i know, but i'd rather see them go Blanco and Santos all season

instead of bringing up Thole only to have him play behind both of those guys every 3 games or so. I think unless they plan on using him as a starter consistently Thole should stay where he can get the most work.

by KeithsMoustache on Jan 25, 2010 6:09 PM EST up reply actions  

The only job share I can think of that would make sense

is to have Blanco and Thole catch at the ML level. Thole gets 80-90 games (Blanco’s too fragile for Thole to catch less) and learns defense, his weakness, from the master. Otherwise, let Thole be the regular in AAA, assuming Coste and others have something to teach him.

by SeanSchirmer on Jan 26, 2010 6:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I imagine the one complaint about giving Blanco the majority of games early on

Is that it means risking having a Santos/Thole combo later in the year if/when Blanco wears down. That might not seem so terrible to us, but its the kind of thing coaches love to complain about for their pitching staff. A rookie and sophomore catcher, the former not particularly known for his defense, the latter already taking some blame for the failure of a pitching staff that was expected to fail anyway. If Blanco gets hurt, it may just mean we have to deal with some Chris Coste, and Thole will get a break from school in Triple-A.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 25, 2010 2:26 PM EST reply actions  

Days of Yore

Remember when Robinson Cancel was our key pinch hitter?

by Dan Lewis on Jan 25, 2010 2:56 PM EST reply actions  

ugh

from the article:

Manuel noted how Angel Pagan has started other seasons quickly, so he’s not ready to anoint Gary Matthews Jr. his starting center fielder.

The fact that Pagan has started other seasons quickly should be so far down on the list of reasons why Pagan should start over GMJ. I worry that Manuel is really considering GMJ as our starting CF…

In fact, since it makes absolutely no sense… I would bet that Manuel is hoping for GMJ to outplay Pagan at CF in spring training just so he can start him.

by gbaked on Jan 25, 2010 3:05 PM EST reply actions  

Oh Manuel is defintely considering GMJ as a starter

You had to know that as soon as this trade was made. There’s no way in hell Manuel is going to let jr. rot on the bench like he should. Definitely not his MO

by Mike Clemente on Jan 25, 2010 3:13 PM EST up reply actions  

He has a name that's well known! That must mean that he'll be able to play well!

It’s not like he’s infamous or anything like that…

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 25, 2010 3:43 PM EST up reply actions  

good

The more Jerry plays awful players, the more the Mets lose, and the more they lose, the less likely Jerry, Omar, Frenchy, Omir, or GMJ will be back in 2011.

Any hope I had for this season disappeared when Beltran went under the knife. The season needs to be written off, and in 2011, when Niese, Fartinez, Thole, and Davis are ready to join Beltran, Bay, Wright, Reyes, Santana, and Pelfrey, maybe we’ll be fighting for the NL East title again, but only if the dregs of the organization are properly disposed of.

Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.

by Greenpoint Ian on Jan 26, 2010 12:16 AM EST up reply actions  

"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green

by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 26, 2010 12:36 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm not sure I get the joke

It’s not that I like to see the Mets lose, it’s just that I have no expectations of success this season.

Of course, the last time I wanted one of my teams to have a horrible season so the management/players would get canned, they ended up winning the Superbowl (Giants, 2007, it seems so long ago that I wanted Coughlin and Eli gone).

Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.

by Greenpoint Ian on Jan 26, 2010 1:13 AM EST up reply actions  

how many more of those do you have?

If there's ever a riot at Citi Field and Oliver Perez was the starter, I started the riot.

by meigs1414 on Jan 26, 2010 9:56 AM EST up reply actions  

I've found 2 others, and I'm sure there will be plenty of chances to use them.

"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green

by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 26, 2010 10:18 AM EST up reply actions  

Or

Omar/jeffy will trade wright/reyes cause they’re not winners and a boatload prospects for carlos lee.

"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'

it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.

by Gina on Jan 26, 2010 12:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Who needs prospects, the world is going to end in 2012 anyway.

Might as well be in win now mode.

"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green

by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 26, 2010 12:39 AM EST up reply actions  

unfortunately our win now mode

looks a lot like .500.

"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'

it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.

by Gina on Jan 26, 2010 12:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Per Driveline Mechanics

Blanco was 7th in the league with 5.7 runs in 2278 PA’s.
Santos was 21st with 2.4 runs in 3092 PA’s.
I know it’s only one year, and the method of determining runs saved is still up for debate, but it’s obvious Blanco should probably get 60% of the PT, with Santos getting the other 40% if they don’t call up Thole.

"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"

by firejerrynow on Jan 25, 2010 3:43 PM EST reply actions  

The part I have issue with

is that both are likely to regress a bit this year. Blanco had a BABIP 25 points higher than his career marks and still hit .230, Santos kind of came out of nowhere to acquire a sub .300 wOBA. I guess then I have to agree with Mr. Page and say it comes down to defense, where one has to hope Blanco’s 39 year old knees will continue to hold up.
But, don’t get me wrong, I’m happy they didn’t offer Molina two years. I’ll say I would have taken him for one year and 5 million though.

Travis Hafner is made of gold

by Super Mario on Jan 25, 2010 5:18 PM EST reply actions  

have no problem with blanco or santos ..

if we cant sign a guy like barrajas or trade for a catcher why not blanco or santos and why did we sign coste ?cant he compete for a job well thole is a year away anyway ..

by lohaus#54 on Jan 25, 2010 11:28 PM EST reply actions  

Chris Coste

Chris Coste gets too overlooked. He had a really poor year with the bat last season, with a .279 wOBA, but he has a career .325 wOBA. That’s notably better than Santos (.291) or Blanco (.284), and very close to what Josh Thole did last season (.333). On top of which he appears to be a good defender, amongst the best at blocking pitches, with a good reputation for working with pitchers as well. And everyone is talking about Barajas in free agency, but apparently the Phillies didn’t keep Barajas a couple of years ago because Charlie Manuel preferred Coste. It looks to me like he should be right in the discussion with these other guys as a potential starter.

by acerimusdux on Jan 26, 2010 3:05 PM EST reply actions  

do we really want Thole learning from Omir?

I guess Blanco with Thole wouldn’t be so bad though. They’re all a bit of a crapshoot.

by KeithsMoustache on Jan 26, 2010 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Another point:

Blanco is getting $750,000 as a base, with all kinds of weird incentives based on playing time and days on the roster and stuff. Coste is getting $650,000, point blank, and that’s all. That’s really pinching pennies, but we save a few bucks by playing Coste more.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 26, 2010 5:47 PM EST up reply actions  

If Coste bounces back to pre-2009 levels he's a great guy to have.

One of the few FO moves I applauded. At worst he’s decent depth.

by SeanSchirmer on Jan 26, 2010 6:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Ctm-logo_small
My dirty little secret: I was once a Yankees fan
Ricky-roma-300x224_small
Sabermetrics and Me: Drowning in Objectivity
Mets002_small
2012 AA Prospects List #3

Recent FanPosts

Mets002_small
2012 AA Prospects List #5
X-wing_small
BrooksBaseball Player Cards: An Amazing Resource For Mets Fans Who Are Curious About How Pitchers Pitch In The Major Leagues
Mets002_small
2012 AA Prospects List #4
Small
Sandy Alderson, @MetsGM, and getting ready for Spring Training
Mets002_small
2012 AA Prospects List #1 (edit: and apparently #2)
Small
Two New York Players of OBP Yore
Small
Thoughts on 2012

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recommended FanShots

Judging by the comments to Matt Callan’s ode to 1986 Mets: A Year To Remember from a few weeks back, the video has a devoted Mets fan following. Despite being too young to remember anything about that season, it has a special place in my fandom as well. It was part of a two video rotation (Ghostbusters being the other) which ran almost daily on my television for a few years in the early 90s. And it remained a once-in-awhile watch through high school and college. 

Unsurprisingly, the physical tape deteriorated over time, and the screen jumps and sound skips made for a less than optimal viewing experience. With sale of the video discontinued, my brother converted it to DVD and gave it to me for Christmas in 2010. See the picture above for the box and DVD. He even created a scene selection function which can be accessed from the main menu. "Get Metsmerized!" plays on loop on the menu screen. It is my favorite Christmas gift ever and is still nice to throw on for a viewing.

"How'd we do it? Mirrors!"
I was flipping through some of my parents' photo albums this afternoon in search of one particular shot of the sign my older sister made for Mets Banner Day back in the late eighties. Though I didn't find that one — I'll post it when I eventually track it down, and I can assure you that it's Keith-themed — but I did stumble upon this wonderful photo of my younger sister's stuffed animal menagerie spread out in front of a glorious rainbow-festooned Mets pennant, also from the late eighties.

She works for the HRC now and was particularly delighted to be reminded of this photo.

(click to embiggen)
Now that banner day is back, hopefully this years will look a little like this. I know it's not great, but i don't pretend to be a professional. embiggen!

Recent FanShots

Yahoo Sports comments on Sandy's Tweets
Using hindsight to redo the Mets’ offseason | Mets360
Cespedes to the Athletics
Kevin Goldstein Top 101
Okay, there is no way this is Sandy Alderson
Ike & Duda fantasy stocks rising
Sabermetrics! Fantasy League is live.
What if the Mets Never Traded for Johan Santana? | Patrick Flood
[O]f the $136.7M the Mets spent on players in 2011, $72.8M was given to...
Witness claims that the Wilpons knew about Madoff

+ New FanShot All FanShots >

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Ctm-logo_small
My dirty little secret: I was once a Yankees fan
Ricky-roma-300x224_small
Sabermetrics and Me: Drowning in Objectivity
Mets002_small
2012 AA Prospects List #3

Recent FanPosts

Mets002_small
2012 AA Prospects List #5
X-wing_small
BrooksBaseball Player Cards: An Amazing Resource For Mets Fans Who Are Curious About How Pitchers Pitch In The Major Leagues
Mets002_small
2012 AA Prospects List #4
Small
Sandy Alderson, @MetsGM, and getting ready for Spring Training
Mets002_small
2012 AA Prospects List #1 (edit: and apparently #2)
Small
Two New York Players of OBP Yore
Small
Thoughts on 2012

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


THE BIG GUY

Aa_avatar_small Eric Simon

THE INCREDIBLES

Blackfish2_small Alex Nelson

Endy_small Rob Castellano

Img_1262_small Matthew Artus

Kanye_pekka_small Sam Page

Best_infield_ever_small James Kannengieser

Metsstitches_small Eno Sarris

48900_1085732804_4466_n_small Chris McShane

Lg_rocker_ap_small Matthew Callan

Billy_and_daddy_4th_of_july_small Bill Petti

THE NEWS GURUS

Mrmet_small Steve Schreiber

3_small Stephen Schmidt

159714144_040c6c1501_small Pack Bringley

124967042_crop_340x234_small Jeffrey Paternostro