Fernando Nieve or Nelson Figueroa?
Unless the Mets sign John Smoltz (get it done Omar Frenchy!) or pull of an unlikely last-minute trade, the Mets seem poised to go into the year with the familiar Santana-Pelfrey-Perez-Maine. From a management perspective, that rotation represents an incredible failure to upgrade the most lacking area of the team. As a rotation on a competitive team, however, that group is not totally unfit for the task. A Mike Pelfrey with Jose Reyes and David Wright playing competent defense is a Mike Pelfrey with a shiny ERA. Oliver Perez backlash officially hit comic proportions when someone suggested to me recently that he would get virtually no money on the open market. If he really is in-shape, Perez will keep enough velocity between his fastball and changeup to keep righties honest and the walk-rate down. Perez may be the least certain quantity in baseball, the yin to Garland's yang, but I'll take his shut-down potential over Jon Garland's generic brand of inning any day (though not for 3/36 of course). Maine is great fourth starter, if he ever makes it to the mound.
Of course, the first four are never the problem on paper--it's that the share of times they will take the ball is closer to 2/3 or 1/2 than it is 4/5. So who takes the ball the extra 50-70 starts a season? Ideally a dependable but crappy fifth starter and a mix high-ceiling prospects and designated "spot-starters" rotate in and out of the fifth spot as needed. Without even a reliable "#4" on the depth chart, however, the Mets unsurprisingly project a oft-injured waiver claim from last season, Fernando Nieve, to be the go-to "#5".
The immediate reaction from the stat-savvy is too denounce the decision based on peripheral statistics not supporting Nieve's very-low 2.95 ERA from last season. One must remember, though, that this argument is against using Fernando Nieve's ERA to evaluate his 2009, not an argument against Fernando Nieve. In just 36 innings, Nieve's "actual" performance (4.90 FIP) tells us about as little as the ERA. Despite the many other factors going against Nieve's sustained success as a major league starter, Nieve likely will not be a 1:1 strikeout-to-walk pitcher going forward.
So with Jon Niese, arguably the second-best pitcher in the organization, uncertain or at least unlikely to start the year in the majors, Nieve's main competition for a rotation spot comes from Nelson Figueroa, soft-tossing fan-favorite. Most would likely say "CHONE projected 4.29 FIP" and hand the job to Figgy on face, which is probably a more rational decision-making criteria than whatever makes the Mets love Nieve (ERA?). The question for me seems more complicated and, at least worth exploring, as I hopelessly search for optimism. I'm also not totally comfortable accepting Figgy's generous projections.
Age/Projectability: Clearly, Nieve wins this category, at age 27 with intriguing stuff (more on that later). Theoretically, he should be in the prime of his career, while Figueroa's best days may be passed. To clarify, projetability here means potential to exceed expectation, not expectation, which Figueroa probably holds over Nieve.
Control: Here Figueroa beats Nieve, but not by the margins you might expect. While Nieve's control has been historically pretty poor (3.88 career BB/9), Figgy really hasn't been much better (3.65 BB/9). Still, with Nieve just a year removed from Tommy John recovery and Figueroa's improvements in AAA last season, Figgy wins.
Stuff: And herein lies the rub. With Citi Field tempering Nieve's homerun problems and his control not that far behind Figueora's, maybe you take a chance on his supposedly great stuff causing a spike in strikeouts. Baseball America used to rave about the quality of his fastball/slider combo, along with a developing curve, during Nieve's prospect days with Houston. Dave Cameron wrote of the young Fernando in 2003:
I saw Nieve throw twice for Martinsville last summer and came away more impressed the second time around. He featured plus velocity for a 20-year-old (he turns 21 in July), hitting 94 with such regularity that I stopped looking at the radar gun. He topped out at 98, but didn't show a tremendous amount of movement on his two-seam fastball. His curveball was a strong 12-6 power curve, thrown between 81-84. It has hard break, but his command came and went, and he was still getting a feel for the pitch. His changeup was in the developmental stage, but he flashed potential with it as a third pitch. The repertoire to be a strikeout pitcher is definitely there.
Baseball America once dropped the Pedro-minus-changeup comp. So did the stuff survive the injuries? Looking at the 600+ pitches he threw in front of pitch-f/x cameras last season, the results were interesting.
His fastball was clearly his best pitch, with an above-average 11 inches of vertical movement and above-average velocity. Generally, any fastball with 10+ inches of vertical spin is good, and I'd call that Nieve's one plus-pitch last season. Surprisingly, Nieve's changeup also looked good with average horizontal movement, +4 inches of vertical movement, and nearly 9 mph behind his fastball. This chart by Dave Allen demonstrates the idea, that generally any extreme amount of movement is good for a changeup:
Nieve's changeup last year sat right in the heart of that green area last season, making it a useful weapon against lefties and a reason for hope that he can get lefties out consistently and become more than a situational reliever.
His slider, his supposed best-pitch, didn't show the tailing-away action typical of a good slider. Sliders vary greatly in terms of movement pitcher-to-pitcher, however, and other hurlers have had success with sliders similar to Nieve's. Gary Cohen called it a "slurve," which makes sense, considering it had the horizontal break of an average slider but a negative vertical break, which is more characteristic of curveballs.
The curveball looked poor. It teetered dangerously in between a good looping pitch and a tight quick-breaking curve. Fangraphs lists it as his second-most thrown pitch last season, which is a mistake in pitch-selection, considering his fastball-changeup combo. His pitch run-values from last season, which measure how hitters actually did against each pitch, confirms, with his changeup and fastball both having positive run values, his breaking balls both negative. I remember him inducing a few swinging-third-stikes last season with it and he might get similar use out of the pitch going forward, if he further limits its use.
For Figueroa, everything is seemingly the opposite. He needs to mix pitches to be effective, because his fastball, changeup, and slider are all pretty pedestrian. His curveball is his one interesting pitch. Check out the graph on the right, also from Dave Allen, in which the negative values are best:
Notice how great 10 inches of Horizontal Movement is and consider that Figgy's curveball registered slightly over 10 last inches year, making it a pretty good weapon against righties.
Conclusion: In a perfect world, I'd like to see Nieve's explosive fastball in the bullpen and Figgy in AAA, but neither might happen at this rate. If Figueroa got the job, it would be interesting whether he truly could pitch as the second best player on the staff (per CHONE) and entrench himself in that spot. Manuel indicated Nieve was the man, however, and his potential is considerable enough that I won't complain. If he can control and be consistent with his changeup, not a small "if," he could be a pretty decent starter. If his "slurve" regains some past glory, he could be good.
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I think you've swayed me
The injuries obviously did effect him as his velocity went from 94 as a 20 year old to 92 last two years. Still, his upside is much more important than Figgy’s likely consistency. Have Nieve in the rotation and Figgy in AAA if he struggles.
"Three home teams advance, and the fuckin' Jets" - Rex Ryan
by Evan_S on Jan 27, 2010 8:36 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Stuff
“Nieve’s changeup also looked good with average horizontal movement, +4 inches of vertical movement, and nearly 9 mph behind his fastball.” By average horizontal movement, you mean -10 (LHB vs RHP)?
“For Figueroa, everything is seemingly the opposite. He needs to mix pitches to be effective, because his fastball, changeup, and slider are all pretty pedestrian” Per Fangraphs, his slider was 0.86 wSL/C (per 100 pitches) and 2.1 wSL (cumulative) in 2009. How did you get that his slider is pedestrian? Did you run a similar pitch/fx for him to compare to those run values from Dave Allen?
Suggestion: link that article from Dave Allen.
I didn't really compare it to any run values
I just looked at the movement and velocity, both of which were pretty average. I was judging just his stuff there, whereas those run values depend on other factors, namely control, command, and random variation of events. Figueroa’s slider may be a better pitch for him than his curveball, despite his curveball having much better raw movement, if he commands it better.
Heres’ the other article I assume you’re referring to.
Pitch-selection
Since Nieve’s 2 most effective pitches are fastball/change up (stuff and value-wise), he could do well against LHB-heavy lineups (or when the best players are LHB and switch-hitters). I took a look at Johan pitch-selection and Nieve could use the same mix.
Nieve: 65% fastball, around 10% each for change up, slider, curveball.
Johan: 60% fastball, 30% change up, 10% slider
My suggestion was just for you to post the link to the original Dave Allen article(s) in the body of your story, in case people want to read more about those charts. It took me a while to realize the red spots are better for the pitchers and the blue spots are worse.
Figgy pitch usage
Also Figgy uses his pitches more or less in line with their effectiveness.
55% fastball, 22% slider (0.86 wSL/C), 13% curveball (-2.3), 8% change up (-6.0), 11% XX (lolwut total more than 100% too).
Nelson Figueroa
As of this morning, Nelson Figueroa’s ERA in 23.1 innings pitched so far in the Dominican Winter League is 0.64. After pitching in relief in four games with a 0.93 ERA, he has started two games, lowering his ERA to 0.64. His Escogido Leones manager is Ken Oberkfell, former Mets coach and current AAA Buffalo Bisons manager, so Jefff Wilpon and Omar Minaya know exactly how he’s doing.
When he finally got into the Mets rotation in mid-August, in Santana’s spot, he pitched in 8 games with an ERA of 3.38 and a 2-6 record; in his 6 losses, the Mets scored a total of 11 runs. If you eliminate his first start against Atlanta, he had a 2.23 ERA in 7 games. In his last three 2009 starts, including the Mets only complete game shutout at Citi Field, Figueroa pitched 22 innings (7+ innings per game) and had a 1.64 ERA. He led the Mets in strikeouts in September. Even his 4.09 ERA is better than half the NL starters in 2009.
By the way, with his two DFAs to Buffalo, he pitched 112 innings for the Bisons with a 2.25 ERA and a 1.03 WHIP. If he had pitched just 3 more innings in Triple A, Nelson Figueroa would have led the International League in both categories instead of Carlos Torres (2.39 ERA in 128 innings) and Justin Lehr (1.17 WHIP in 117 innings). He was voted the International League’s Pitcher of the Week twice and was selected and pitched in the 2009 Triple A All-Star Game vs the Pacific Coast League.
Nelson Figueroa has continued his superlative pitching in the Dominican Winter League with his two starts coming in the Dominican World Series now under way. Figueroa’s best days are not passed. You ain’t see nothin’ yet!
Hes a 35 year old starter with so so stuff
His best days are behind him.
"Three home teams advance, and the fuckin' Jets" - Rex Ryan
by Evan_S on Jan 27, 2010 9:25 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
You're his agent, right?
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jan 27, 2010 10:34 AM EST up reply actions
The problem with that is
that he is excelling in AAA, or in Dominican Winter Baseball, both of which have general net talent levels lower than what he’d face in the MLB.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 27, 2010 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
Great post,
although I can’t say in the beginning of the offseason I foresaw a comparison of the merits of Nieve and Figgy as 5th starter being written three weeks before pitchers and catchers report.
The causative relationship is that talent (plus luck) leads to wins. And that talent (plus service time) leads to payrolls.
Actually
If you saw that curveball in that complete came shutout, you would’ve never guessed who threw it. Sometimes, but not often, guys ‘figure it out’ late. It’s improbable, but possible.
Agreed about game 162.
Had fantastic seats gifted to me for that game, behind the plate and slightly to the right of dead-center.
No fooling— on that day, at least, his curve and slider were looking Baseball-Bugs-like.
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Jan 27, 2010 1:40 PM EST up reply actions
Maine
Maine is great fourth starter, if he ever makes it to the mound.
How’d you get Maine as the #4?
On this staff, Maine is the #2.
Heck, even if he doesn’t make it to the mound, he’ll be better than Ollie.
Sadly
Our best rotation probably involves at least two (and maybe three) pitchers who won’t make the rotation.
My gut says I'd rather have Figgy
But it really comes down to whose more likely to clear waivers. The reason my gut says Figgy is because the Mets already have two righty starters in their rotation who probably rely on their good but not great fastball a bit too much. A guy who likes to spin it a bit more and work at the lower velocities might provide a better contrast. Then again, knowing Jerry, he’ll probably find an excuse to start Maine and Nieve back to back the whole year.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 27, 2010 1:51 PM EST reply actions
Tell me again why Niese def won't be in the majors at the start of the year?
He is at worst their third best pitcher.
no reason to start his clock this early?
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
no
I have seen nothing that suggests he woould not be ready for spring training. And the clock has already started no?
You have to accumulate 3 full years before your arbitration eligible
So if he gets called up in April he’ll be eligible a year earlier than if he gets called up like mid-season.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
I calculated the date in another thread, it actually won't change when he's arb elligible though
It’ll just buy them an extra arbitration year. If he’s called up on July 24th, he’ll finish this year with 179 days of major league service time, one day under a full year, meaning even if he has five more full seasons without going back down, he’ll wind up with 5.179 days of service time after the 2015 season, a day short of FA eligibility. If he’s called up before then, he’ll have 6.000+ years of service time and be eligible for FA after 2015. He’ll still reach arbitration in 2013 either way though. If he has 3.000+ years after 2012, he’ll be arb eligible no matter what, and if he has something like 2.179 days, he’s pretty much guaranteed to be a Super-2, basically meaning he’ll go to arb four times instead of three, but it’ll still start at the same time.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 27, 2010 4:58 PM EST up reply actions
so in other words it makes little or no difference.
Considering Niese is at worst the 3rd best pitcher in the entire organization right now and the major league club is starving for rotation help to the point when they are considering signing a 43 year old relic in John Smoltz, worrying about the prospect of Niese being a free agent in 2016 vs 2017 seems at best, penny wise and pound foolish. So I ask again, why isn’t Niese being considered a serious candidate for the rotation?
I think he is
If he completely outpitches Figgy and Nieve in March, I bet he’ll win the job. But if its close, it makes sense to start him in the minors. He’s the only one guaranteed to stay in the organization if he doesn’t make the opening day roster. Nieve and Figgy both have to clear waivers, and being that Nieve has more long-term potential than Figgy, I’d imagine he’s more likely to get claimed, especially if he pitches well in the spring. For a team that’s guaranteeing rotation spots to John Maine and Oliver Perez, minor league depth is important.
Plus, what’s the difference between Niese and Figgy/Nieve? There is a difference, but its no more than two wins, and that’s assuming Niese is already a 3 win pitcher, a big assumption (he could be quite a bit less and be the third best pitcher on this staff). That’s big if you’re already a competitive team, but for a team expected to be about .500 in a strong division, its not that significant. A year of service time may not be much cost for a big market team like the Mets, but it is a cost, and if Niese isn’t going to be filling seats or contributing to a playoff push, it would be a bit of a waste to force him into the opening day rotation.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 27, 2010 6:49 PM EST up reply actions
If it is Figgy/Nieve vs Niese, I may not have as big a problem with it.
But if Smolts gets the nod over Niese, it is a total farce.
Smoltz not Smolts
I would like to Smolt Smoltz.
Couldn't you also say
Since this season is sunk anyway and we have so much money owed to declining players we’d be better off keeping Niese down so we could hold onto a cost effective piece longer in the future? Since it’s not going to make a difference for these season anyway?
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
great piece
(needs a [continue reading] jump so it doesn’t take up the whole front page, though)
I’d like to see more discussion of the bullpen-vs.-rotation issue for Nieve, though. Doesn’t Nieve seem like the right kind of pitcher to break into the majors through relief work? It seems like he’s the “good fastball, needs to work on secondary pitches” kind of guy who could gradually hone his breaking pitches with an inning every other day. But I guess you might also argue that pitching in relief would hamper his development because he might become too reliant on the fastball, I don’t know. Is there data on which approach works better for development?
nieve ?
i like him over figgy and he did pitch pretty well before he got hurt but i still think they should take a look a wang please no smoltz..
The problem with Nieve is that he hasn't pitched much since 2006, and when he has
he hasn’t been that good.
Both?
Spring training will tell us a lot. If Perez simply can’t pitch successfully any longer or Maine doesn’t have enough arm strength to start. I won’t be at all surprised to see Figgy and Nieve both in the rotation at the beginning of April.
bedard
This is seriously ridiculous… Nieve Is our best option? if he sucks lthen what? Figgy?
Our lack of involvement in a pitcher is ridiculous. We should have been interested in Harden, he would have been perfect in citi (hrs would be down) and he’s played in a big market Seriously 1 yr 6.5+ mill for a pitcher with Harden’s stuff is a steal.
All thats left is Erik Bedard who i consider to have top tier stuff, he might not be completely healthy now but we have to take some risks to win games. He’s a buy low candidate and has a good upside, but there’s no talk about the mets and bedard.
Instead we got Nieve…
Bedard, Harden and Sheets are too much of injury risks for us
which is why we’re going after the ever durable John Smoltz…
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
wow
I dont think I can put into words how angry I am at the ownership of the mets. Sure theyre injury risks but were a big market team we can take risks with good upsides like a harden or bedard, You need to take risks to win games. I see the Orioles or the Royals get bedard for <7 million I will be seriously flipping out.
Its probably because we averaged >90% capacity with a bad team last year, they think that this year the number wont change much so they’ll make money nonetheless. They couldn’t care less about competing with the Phillies and now the marlins.

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