Don't Criticize Omar For The Sake Of Criticizing
Putting down Omar Minaya no matter what he does is fashionable these days, and I can't say I haven't taken part. "The Contest" between Omar and inept Royals GM Dayton Moore was proposed by Fangraphs writer Matt Klaassen (AKA devil_fingers) and has achieved some notoriety in the largely irrelevant yet entertaining Internet sabermetric circle-jerk. Every move either GM makes is met with snark and, in some cases, at least a passing mention of "The Contest". That doesn't mean smart transactions shouldn't be met with praise. Omar's signing of Fernando Tatis for something less than the $1.7 million he earned last season is a smart move. Fernando has been a 1.5-2 win player each of the last two seasons and a positive addition to the clubhouse. But that doesn't stop Dave Cameron of Fangraphs from calling "all aboard!" to the Contest Train:
The Mets re-signed Fernando Tatis, and are apparently going to go into 2010 with a first base platoon of Tatis and Daniel Murphy. I don’t even know what to say. Really, Omar? This is your plan? You couldn’t have used that million dollars you gave Gary Matthews Jr, combined it with the Tatis money, and gotten a younger, better first baseman instead (someone named Garko, perhaps)? You spent approximately 40 bazillion dollars on the core of your roster, and then seem intent on surrounding them with guys who just don’t deserve jobs. I’d say I don’t get it, but maybe The Contest just has a better grand prize than a World Series trophy.
Calling Tatis one of those "guys who just don't deserve jobs" is laughable. If Tatis doesn't deserve a job, then where does that leave Ryan Langerhans and Casey Kotchman? It's fun to light up cigars and pour brandy to toast "The Contest" in all its grandeur. However, signing a utility player who can play multiple positions and be a league average hitter for less than Alex Cora's salary is a wise move. And no amount of snark generated by an Internet meme can change that.
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Tatis may have put up a decent WAR
In 09 and less so in 08, but at 35 years old he will be lucky to maintain that this year. Murphy/Tatis is a horror show of a 1B for a team with a payroll that is over 100m. The mets have the same economic circumstances as the Yankees, could you imagine the Yanks floating this garbage out there? I understand what you are saying – Tatis is isn’t a huge negative, and it wasn’t that bad of an overpay, but projections go forward, not backwards, and Tatis brings more downside ahead with zero upside.
by borasblog on Jan 30, 2010 7:27 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Another way of saying it...
Tatis may have a MEAN projection of, say 1.5 war, but the SKEWNESS will be highly, highly negative.
by borasblog on Jan 30, 2010 7:35 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
They didn't sign him just to platoon with Murphy
They signed him because he can play all four corners fairly well, and still hit a little bit. If he regresses a little bit, that’s perfectly fine for a bench player making what he’s making. If he puts up similar numbers, he’s a huge bargain for the third straight year.
If you want to criticize the Mets for settling for Murphy, that’s fair, but that doesn’t have anything to do with Tatis.
You don't cheer for the Mets. You drink for the Mets.
the mets and yankees are not in the “same economic circumstances”. You are comparing apples and oranges.
by christopherm on Jan 30, 2010 9:32 AM EST up reply actions
hardly
Murphy/Tatis is a horror show of a 1B for a team with a payroll that is over 100m.
more like apples and rotten apples.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Jan 30, 2010 1:44 PM EST up reply actions
I get what you're saying, but...
everybody is sick of guys like Tatis, and Cora, Matthews and Garko are no better. If Omar wanted to stick to the purse- strings,or if it was mandated, and the only splurge was Bay, then so be it. But spending what they have so far on bench fodder, it makes no sense. Cora could have been signed for half- on a minor league deal. Matthews costed a pretty dependable reliever (Stokes), who was good for less than $1M. Now we are stuck with a declining, crybaby who will cut into Pagan’s playing time. Tatis has been serviceable, but why not get younger? Nothing added for pitching except Escobar, Fogg and Dickey. Then signing backup catcher fodder like Coste, Blanco and Luke Montz. Not to mention, old guys like Hessman and Cervenak to block Ike Davis and so-called prospect Bowman. Not only is the Met bench old and crusty, but the reinforcements in Buffalo will even be older. Start spending the cash on the draft, and don’t fill out the bench until you get your starting lineup defined.
Lead, follow, or get out of the way
Half those signings you complained about are just guys to fill out the minor league roster.
Hessman and Cervenak will not impede the progress of Ike Davis, but at some point the Mets do have to fill out the rosters of all their affiliates. After such a terrible season in Buffalo, it’s pretty important to put a decent team in place there to keep the affiliate happy in the last year of their PDC.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 10:27 AM EST up reply actions
I just looked at the NRPs
so far. This has got to be the oldest, most useless group ever. My guess is that Stokes was traded so that Omar’s buddy Elmer Dessens could have a spot. Feliciano and Andy Green should have a tough time cracking an Indy League roster, but why, when Omar gives them meal-money and a guaranteed job in Buffalo. Hessman and Cervenak are a pure example of Omar’s AAA policy- you must be at least 30, or get lost. The only guy that may be of usefulness would be Russ Adams, aLH hitting middle inf. But Omar will cut him so that Green can play. Pathetic.
Lead, follow, or get out of the way
Hessman is actually a good guy to have down in AAA
his last 3 wOBA’s: .342, .414, .385
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Jan 30, 2010 9:35 AM EST up reply actions
Forget the Mets, let's bash Omar for his poor minor league roster construction
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 10:28 AM EST up reply actions
buffalo is going to be amazing this year.
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 30, 2010 10:39 AM EST up reply actions
We really do need to focus on keeping them happy, the PDC is up at the end of the year.
If we don’t keep them happy, I can see us ending up in Vegas or back in New Orleans and running into problems calling people up.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 10:44 AM EST up reply actions
True
they had a pretty rough year there last year since we took pretty much every player they had over the course of the season. Lets hope we can leave everybody there that doesn’t need to be on the 25 man roster all season this time.
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 30, 2010 10:48 AM EST up reply actions
Our end of the season rotation would have looked pretty good in Buffalo
Sad that they were in NY instead.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 10:54 AM EST up reply actions
yeah after a while i felt pretty bad for them
they were bleeding players to the ML roster faster than they could replace them it seemed
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 30, 2010 11:01 AM EST up reply actions
Omar's done a better job retooling Buffalo than the Mets
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
The Omar obsession
I think that was what inspired one of my first Fanposts here. Yes we get it, he’s incompetent, but as you say, not everything he does is wrong. I think FG and Cameron are just trying to overcompensate for labeling the Mets the fourth best organization a year ago, and their method of atonement is ritual mockery of everything Minaya does, no matter how benign.
Benign?
It’s not the contract Tatis got, rather the reality that Tatis/Murphy is the best Omar could come up with for our starting 1B, which is hardly benign and very deserving of mockery?
by borasblog on Jan 30, 2010 8:26 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Is that a question or a statement?
The question mark at the end of your comment puzzles me. Anyway, the fact that Omar could not more effectively improve the 1B position is already water under the bridge. The fact of the matter is that Tatis is a fine role player – and contrary to your assertion, is not slated to be platooning with Murphy. He is probably going to be our best player off the bench until Beltran comes back, though that is more of an indictment of the rest of the bench than a compliment towards Tatis. Bash Omar for all sorts of things – he deserves it – but signing a player like Tatis for a paltry sum is something he’s gotten right.
Question mark
Sorry – fat-fingered my iphone, should be period.
by borasblog on Jan 30, 2010 9:27 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I still havent seen you name a better FA 1b that would cost as little as Murphtis will.
Garko is horrible against RH pitching putting up .249/ .321/ .392/.713 last season. You want him to platoon with Murphy? OK, but he will cost 3 times the amount Tatis costs for no gain at first AND for the loss of Tatis’ flexibility at other positions (especially 2b if Castillo stays.)
Who would you like to see here?
"Wait till Biggus Dickus hears about this!"
by scott from peekskill on Jan 30, 2010 12:09 PM EST up reply actions
Omar's decisionmaking re 1B was atrocious
I’m sorry, and I’m not into Omar-bashing as I still strongly believe – Omar’s statements to the contrary notwithstanding – that Jeff Wilpon is still pulling the strings. I’m into Wilpon-bashing. And it may just be by virtue of the “budget” he gives Omar. But, trust me, Omar is not out there on his own figuring out ways he can spend Freddie’s and Jeffy’s money without their say so.
The decisions to go with Murphy, with a little bit of Tatis thrown in there, is just horrible. And I don’t want to hear about how Ike Davis is “waiting in the wings.” Ike Davis is an unproven commodity. Right now, he can even hit left-handed pitching …. at the minor league level! We should have signed Adam LaRoche for one year on the cheap, like the D-Backs did.
We also should have put up the the extra money for Benji Molina (I know a lot of people didn’t like this idea, but I like better than Omir Santos, Josh Thole, and Henry Blanco). Now we have to get either Yorvit or Bara-ha-ha-ha-has.
As for pitching we needed to pick up someone “professional” that was going to give us 200 innings of decent pitching that we could count on. Jason Marquis, John Garland, or the other guy for a 2 year contract would have been just fine and reasonable. But no.
We can’t count of Ollie to do shit as it stands right now. Same with John Maine. Same with Juan Nieves. And which Mike Pelfrey is going to show up this year? I betcha it’s the same one that still doesn’t know how to throw a solid breaking ball to complement his fb.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
I don't really think Murphy/Tatis is awful
they’ll likely provide league average value and Adam Laroche is no sure thing. He’s been above average by WAR but it’s mostly been because of random improbable spikes in different areas. One year he had an awesome hr rate, another year he had an awesome defensive year. And while I’m sure none of that had anything to do with Omar’s decision there’s really not much reason to believe Laroche is much of an improvement over Murphy/Tatis.
Also I think putting up big money for Molina would have been a major mistake.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
LaRoche is pretty much ..
a 25 HR, 90 RBI, .280 ave. player. Can you really say that about Murphy? Plus, Murphy really didn’t hit until the end of the year when there was no pressure. When we needed him – AND TATIS – to hit, they failed.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
How can you be so sure?
LaRoche strikes out once a game, has an ordinary OB% and only once had more doubles in a season that Murphy had in his rookie season. He is more accomplished at 1B but he’s probably played there his whole life. Murphy already covers more ground than LaRoche and is still learning the position. At best LaRoche will probably hit 10 more HR’s and have 10 less doubles and cost 4.5 million more.
by t agee on Jan 30, 2010 4:45 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This.
I think FG and Cameron are just trying to overcompensate for labeling the Mets the fourth best organization a year ago, and their method of atonement is ritual mockery of everything Minaya does, no matter how benign.
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Jan 30, 2010 11:19 PM EST up reply actions
Tatis is a decent signing, but he is a role player
he is a supporting member of a good team, that is why he was so good in 08, he could be plugged into a decent lineup and give a regular a rest..and he had decent numbers. he was forced to play a little more last season, and he stepped up decent, but that i snot the role we need him for…I am glad we signed him, but hope he does not have to be used quite as much as last season.
I would give Minaya a B for this signing, but he has gotten a lot of Fs also.
This Omar bashing
is getthing really old….it’s all “Met” fans talk about.
What is wrong with Murphy being the Mets 1B in 2010? I still see Tatis being our supersub with a little more time at 1B (not necessarily a platoon). Omar has said repeatedly that Ike Davis is the Future and what’s not to love about that?
It’s not like our options for a 1B were any good this year anyway…don’t even mention a trade for Fielder.
Oh, and Ryan Garko SUCKS
by RIPShea on Jan 30, 2010 8:52 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
You are 100% right
Well said sir.
"Wait till Biggus Dickus hears about this!"
by scott from peekskill on Jan 30, 2010 12:09 PM EST up reply actions
Rec'd
And I would like to add onto your quoting of “‘Met’” fans. Some of the commenters simply criticize EVERYTHING that he does. Obviously we all want our team to win, do well, make smart decisions, and not embarrass itself. But we’re the Mets fans—if we aren’t going to support the team adequately, who is? Some people are no better than the media with some of their commentary. The other day I read a comment saying that “we can’t contend until 2012 at the earliest.” Where did that come from? How can that determination be made without the season even starting? Hell, 2011 hasn’t even begun yet to say that.
There is nothing wrong with warranted criticism, but like James said, don’t just criticize just to criticize. It’s getting old and stupid.
Trying to believe is my full-time occupation.
Exactly, James.
Well said.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jan 30, 2010 9:03 AM EST reply actions
second
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Jan 30, 2010 9:36 AM EST up reply actions
I agree. Signing equal parts so they can say they did something makes no sense. This year’s free agency market sucked and the money gotten by most was crazy. Spending just to spend in the long run would of brought even more grieve. Does anyone rememeber the early 90’s around here. I do.
by christopherm on Jan 30, 2010 9:36 AM EST up reply actions
The SP signings were kinda ridiculous.
Davis, Pineiro and especially Marquis got more money than they are worth but just happened to be the best pitchers available after Lackey. Luck and good timing not skill got them big contracts
"Wait till Biggus Dickus hears about this!"
by scott from peekskill on Jan 30, 2010 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
How was signing ...
Jason Marquis …. for 2 years $15 million is “crazy money”?
Adam LaRoche …. for 1 year for $4 million is “crazy money”?
Benji Molina … crazy money?
Please stop.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
Because those are guys who weren't worth it
We’d just be replacing what we have with guys with more recognizable names, without actually improving.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
At least those guys would give us innings
… you can’t really say that yet about Perez, Maine, Niese and Nieves.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
It's a sad state of affairs when you are counting onLaRoche and Molina to give you innings.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
Very funny. No ...
Piniero, Marquis and/or Garland.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
Molina took less to sign with the Giants. He said he needed more to come here.
Marquis isn’t worth that deal, and I’m glad he didn’t sign here.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
We were just a couple of million apart with Molina.
This is all just chump change to the Wilpons. Damn, we’re The New York Mets. We have a new ball park and our own TV station. And we can’t spend a few extra mill to fill in some missing pieces?
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
It wasn't the money according to Molina...it was a second year guarantee.
That’s a big deal in my book, espescially since Molina is a very slight upgrade at best.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 2:29 PM EST up reply actions
The Mets were a couple of million apart with Molina
and he is not worth the extra millions. So there’s that.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jan 30, 2010 3:12 PM EST up reply actions
And those three would make no difference at all.
You answered your own reply. Marquis has NEVER finished a season strong. Wasn’t even on the post-season roster. Adam Laroche is no better than what we already have. And Benji Molina is the most overrated catcher in the league. Has a career year and NO ONE offers him two years. Why should we be the ones to give charity money to a washed up catcher.
by christopherm on Jan 30, 2010 2:37 PM EST up reply actions
And adding any of these guys is adding more money to replace guys giving the same or similar production
"Wait till Biggus Dickus hears about this!"
by scott from peekskill on Jan 30, 2010 3:25 PM EST up reply actions
omar??
everyone blames omar led by the daily news writers who have an axe to grind with him. it starts with ownership . if u give a great chef lemons u get great lemonade but its still lemonade. thats what wilpons have given omar i’m tired of hearing about that we have the highest payroll in the nl the wilpons own two thirds of sny so there is no reason that they do not put more money on the table for omar to spend
We have the highest payroll in the National League
Most complaints concerning Omar and free agent signings wouldn’t be solved if the ownership group gave him more money. Most complaints concerning Omar stem from the fact that he has so much money to work with, and he uses it in ways that don’t maximize his spending capacity- signing Alex Cora for $2 million dollar back-up contract, extending Jeff Francoeur for $5 million dollars, spending whatever that crazy-absurd amount was on Francisco Rodriguez. It is likely that, if Omar had more funds to spend, we would see more things like that, piled on top of what we already have and see.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 30, 2010 11:05 AM EST up reply actions
And if Pujols was a FA this offseason how would he have reacted?
Yes, he would be giving him more money than anyone else. There is no Pujols, Mauer, Adrian Gonzalez or any other superstar player out there. We got what was there, mediocrity. What we should be pissed about is this one-player-at-a-time bullcrap idea they have. I can’t believe a major league front office cant have offers out to 4 free agents at a time and have a complete team ready to take the field by Jan 15th.
I think most Met fans are frustrated by the lack of signings to fill the pitching roster and the reluctance to cut Castillo. We need a great defensive 2b and a great GB pitcher to take advantage of that second baseman and I am pissed that this is so obvious and still hasnt been addressed.
"Wait till Biggus Dickus hears about this!"
by scott from peekskill on Jan 30, 2010 12:16 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Why complain that the roster isn't filled out by January 15th?
Many of the best deals teams get come as spring training approaches, so you’re suggesting the Mets leave themselves no flexibility after that point to meet some self imposed deadline to appease fans. I don’t think most fans would agree with cutting Castillo either. He’s not worth 6 million, but he’s got positive value to a roster. If one of the remaining glut of 2nd basemen drops to the Mets for cheap, then Castillo is a pretty good pinch hitter to have on the bench.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
In what dimension does Castillo have value?
The guy ranked last among all second base fielders last season. Our starting rotation is being killed up the middle because of him.
The guy did have a good season with the bat but did nothing Hudson cant.
Castillo hurts us much more than he helps us.
Jan 15h is not a deadline. What i am saying is that by Jan 15th we should know with some accuracy who will be playing with us and take away the anxiety Met fans are feeling right now.
"Wait till Biggus Dickus hears about this!"
by scott from peekskill on Jan 30, 2010 12:50 PM EST up reply actions
If you read my comment you'd see that I said Castillo had good value as a pinch hitter.
His glove really doesn’t factor into that particular role. There are plenty of situations where a switch hitter with his on base skills and baserunning ability could be a real asset. Even with his poor defense he was worth over 1 WAR last year…his bat has some value.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 12:56 PM EST up reply actions
And what great fielding free agent second baseman would you propose the Mets sign?
Polanco was the only guy this offseason that really fit that mold, and he got a big contract.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 12:58 PM EST up reply actions
Hudson
"Wait till Biggus Dickus hears about this!"
by scott from peekskill on Jan 30, 2010 12:59 PM EST up reply actions
He's not a great fielding second baseman anymore
A big upgrade for sure, but he’s probably about league average right now. The Mets had the biggest offer out there for that GB pitcher too, he just chose to sign with the Angels.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 1:09 PM EST up reply actions
Just looking at Hudson's UZR last season
You are right, he is only slightly better than average but has to be worth 6 or 7 wins over Castillo with his glove alone. The other guy out there is Felipe Lopez who is better than Hudson with his glove but slightly worse with the bat.
I would be happy with either. Polanco according to Fangraphs was the best fielding 2b last season.
I would like to see Wang here on an incentive laden deal and he needs a strong defense because he is incredibly GB heavy.
"Wait till Biggus Dickus hears about this!"
by scott from peekskill on Jan 30, 2010 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
I also would like to see Wang sign.
I just don’t see the sense in cutting a 12 million dollar contract and likely spending at least 6 more to replace it this season just to take a flier on a guy coming off major surgery. That money just isn’t the most efficient use of funds, espescially when Castillo will be much more moveable next offseason.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
If we live with him this year and his productivity drops no one will want him
The we have a situation where he hurts us defensively at 2b (should he indeed play there and not off the bench) and we will still have to cut next season.
Summary; we cut him and eat his $12m, we play him at 2b and he destroys us defensively then we cut him next offseason and still pay him $12m or we play him on the bench and still pay him $12m.
He is getting $12m that is a sunk cost. What we have to decide is; does he play 2b or do we bench/cut him.
I can live with him on the bench or on someone elses bench, just not at our 2b.
"Wait till Biggus Dickus hears about this!"
by scott from peekskill on Jan 30, 2010 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
I just don't get the Castillo hate.
His contract is terrible, but he’s far from the least productive player we have. We’re going into the season with bigger questions in right field, catcher, and first base along with a rotation full of question marks. There are certainly ways to upgrade 2nd base, but it’s just not worth it to create yet another hole when there are so many to fill right now.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
I'm also baffled by this
The “Castillo is a sunk cost” faction has gotten really vocal recently, and I’m honestly not sure what’s behind it (except perhaps the outsized reputation relative to ability of Orlando Hudson).
Castillo is far from the biggest problem with the team — and wouldn’t it be just as big a sunk-cost fallacy to treat him as a liability just because he’s overpaid?
He's far from the biggest problem
but at this point he’s the only problem that has readily available solutions for fairly cheap costs. Outside of making a trade what other holes could we fill now that are within the realm of reason considering who our front office is, ie they’re not likely to sign Damon when they’re paying Frenchy 5 million, resigned Tatis and traded for Gmjr.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
okay, I see
So the point is that replacing Castillo is the smartest move that we can actually imagine Omar making? It’s based on some amalgam of imagined Omar-psychology and actual baseball-related argument? I can see that.
Well replacing Omar with Hudson is
the smartest move I can actually imagine him doing. Since he seems to have some sort of man love for him and his winning ways.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
So why cut him?
Signing Hudson for this season and keeping Castillo on the bench makes more sense than cutting him. I’m sure we could find someone to take on at least some of his contract in a trade. Cutting him is something that can be done after spring training, why jump the gun now?
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 4:38 PM EST up reply actions
I didn't say anything about cutting him
I guess to free up a roster spot since they’re clearly not going to get rid of Cora.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
Sorry..didn't mean to imply that
So many people here seem to think cutting him is the way to go at this point.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
Felipe Lopez is the obvious choice, tho
being a Boras client signing him may not be easy… but since there hasn’t been much action on him so far I’m sure he could be had rather easily.
by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Jan 30, 2010 9:44 PM EST up reply actions
He's supposedly getting some interest lately from the Rockies and Cards
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 9:47 PM EST up reply actions
My apologies
Yes, he would have plenty of value as a pinch hitter.
"Wait till Biggus Dickus hears about this!"
by scott from peekskill on Jan 30, 2010 12:58 PM EST up reply actions
His glove really does factor in though
If your pinch hitting a high OB% guy like Luis it’s going to be in a close game. Unlike when Endy was double switched in to lead off the 7th or 8th you can’t leave Castillo in a close game because of his glove so in this instance you have to use two of your five subs and realistically two of your 4 since you need the 2nd catcher on the bench. If the close game goes into extra innings you only have 2 moves left.
His glove is bad, but not really bad enough that he can't play a few innings or a game here or there.
He’s certainly a good enough player that eating 12 million to cut him wouldn’t be a smart move.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 1:25 PM EST up reply actions
Playing Castillo when Santana pitches is not a big deal, he is a flyball pitcher
But Castillo kills Pelfrey and other GB pitchers.
"Wait till Biggus Dickus hears about this!"
by scott from peekskill on Jan 30, 2010 1:35 PM EST up reply actions
But Pelfrey is our only GB pitcher as of right now, unless Niese becomes our #5.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 1:37 PM EST up reply actions
And hopefully we can find a Gb pitcher as our #2 behind Santana
How would Castillo be as an occasional First baseman. His D there won’t kill us.
"Wait till Biggus Dickus hears about this!"
by scott from peekskill on Jan 30, 2010 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
Hard to say that, I don't know that he's ever played there.
It’s lower on the defensive spectrum, but it doesn’t mean anyone can play it well with zero experience.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 1:44 PM EST up reply actions
It would be real difficult
by my point is from a roster construction point of view and while it’s a moot point now it just illustrates why looking around ever year for a solution to a need rather than having some solutions already planned for just kills us going forward. If we absolutely had to have Castillo, even knowing he couldn’t possibly be in shape to play baseball after having both of his knees operated on why didn’t we just offer him arbitration, live with him for 1 year and then sign a guy who really could help us? Cause really anyone else at 2B in ‘08 would have been 2 games better and when you think about it that’s all we really needed then and we would be in much better shape now too.
Supposedly Houston was offering
a similar deal with one less year so we had to give the extra year to get him signed, but I agree the problem with the mets is they seem to only think one off-season as a time never anticipating holes, and they also seem to assume everything is going to break right and rarely add real depth.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
Your right
The frustration isn’t really the collapses or injuries. It’s the fact that it doesn’t seem that the philosophy of building a team is ever going to change. The Mariners GM has made lots of moves based on his philosophy for the 25 man roster while also addressing acquiring possible pieces for the future. Would anyone really be surprised if Jack knew more about our Minor Leaguers than Jeff or Omar did?
Yeah that's my problem
I could probably live with deals I didn’t like if there seemed to be 1. a decisive plan/philosophy behind it 2. that plan philosophy had been reasonable successful, then problem is there seems to be no plan and we haven’t been particularly successful.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
And we've used up the
inexpensive years we were getting at SS and 3B with just a couple of possibles on the way up. For my money 1984 was a very satisfying year because of the hard work that was done from 1980 on. I really wonder if this ownership will ever find the maturity to spend money behind the scenes to provide a team that can compete year after year.
Hopefully next season we'll be getting league minimum salaries out of Catcher, First base, and Niese's spot in the rotation.
Parnell will still be getting the minimum, as will Murphy. Fernando will also hopefully be there at the minimum, which could allow Omar to move a more expensive piece (who couldthat be). Those guys should allow the Mets to make a run at a guy like Webb.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
I think expecting Davis to be ready next year
is too much. From what scouting reports I’ve read he still can’t hit lefties or off-speed stuff. He had a good year but he seems to be more than a year away.
And with Thole, I don’t know, there’s just a lot of question marks to me. His batting numbers looked like they were inflated by getting a lot of singles off ground balls.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
Yeah it's not totally bleak but
Parnell needs at least 1 more pitch. I can’t really see Murphy AND Davis contributing and Thole needs a platoon partner preferably a defensively sound one (whose not 39) Thole is certainly an interesting prospect but there’s a reason he only caught Misch and Figgy last year and was always pinch hit for before Rodriguez came on. I really hope he’s not brought up here, annointed as THE GUY and then condemned because he wasn’t ready.
Young guys like Murphy are still valuable as backups.
And nobody is saying Thole needs to start today…he was used sparingly last September, but targeting next April would give him a full year and a half to work on his catching. Nobody is annointing any of these guys as “the guy”, but even as bench pieces they have value as the cumulative savings of theseguys adds up to a pretty decent sum of money.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
I agree completly
I just would like the young guys to be put in a spot where their strengths are maximized and their weaknesses are mitigated and this has to be planned for a couple of years ahead of time. For instance if Hawkins makes it up here at 2B will he need a platoon partner? Will Davis? Who is the CFer of the future? Do we already have him in the system or should we be looking at other teams minor leaguers? I hope we’re not just at the mercy of who ever is available in a particular year or worse whoever someone will pay us to take off their hands.
Hawkins?
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
While Omar has certainly earned my displeasure on numerous occasions
This offseason has been pretty generic so far. Cora was a bad signing, GMJr was a baffling trade, and Frenchy was a bit of an overpay, but we haven’t done anything too damaging this offseason. The more I come to understand the inner workings of the Mets, the more my blame shifts partially to the Wilpons. Were there players out there that could have made this a pretty good team in 2010? Probably, but were we likely to get all of them, absolutely not. Treading water for a year sucks, but if it means we come out swinging in the vastly superior 2011 offseason, then i’m sure they’ll be able to get rid of a lot of the ill will in a hurry. I don’t think Omar is a good GM, but even given his impending doom status, he’s still not burning through money and players in some last gasp to save himself (whether by his design or by the Wilpons we’ll never know) which I’m grateful for.
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 30, 2010 10:24 AM EST reply actions
I don't understand why the Tatis signing is being met with such derision.
Tatis is a solid player, and it’s not like he was signed to an Alex Cora-esque contract. This is one of Omar’s better moves this off-season, really. I see no problem jumping on Omar over that fact- that this is one of his better off-season moves. Jumping on him for signing Tatis, though? Unnecessary.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 30, 2010 11:02 AM EST reply actions
I don't mind having a bench player who can play all 4 corners if need be.
I hold Omar responsible for neglecting the minors. If he ( or was it Jeff?) hadn’t thrown away so many high draft choices we might have had a low cost solution to one or more of our needs coming up right now. He started the job with 2 of the 8 everyday positions already taken care of and added Beltran shortly thereafter. Five years later, maybe 1B will be set next year, 2B in 2 years, 1/2 of catcher in a year or two, one OF spot if Fern comes through but by that time we’re either paying free agent bucks or looking for replacements at the original 3 spots and that’s only the starting eight.
It seems like
people often just go straight to Omar bashing because it’s an accepted theory and therefore they don’t really need to look into it further. Something happens with the Mets? Easy response: Omar blew it again!
Travis Hafner is made of gold
All this media hatred on the Mets
makes me love the team even more
by Kevin.O'Hanlon on Jan 30, 2010 12:43 PM EST reply actions
It's funny too, because we're basically the same team the media loved last year.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
+1
talk about kicking someone while they’re down. the olneys, rosenthals & heymans of the world better be sending the mets a big ass fruit basket for all the time we’ve saved them this offseason, putting out these easy, half-written, straight up lazy pieces every 2-3 days out our expense just because with the current portrayal of the mets in the mainstream media, they knew they could.
by Rob Castellano on Jan 30, 2010 12:54 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Frank Catalanatto is ours on a minior league deal.
Wow, Buffalo is going to be better than 3/4 MLB teams this season
"Wait till Biggus Dickus hears about this!"
by scott from peekskill on Jan 30, 2010 12:47 PM EST reply actions
I can understand why people are sick of older players
but I think it’s unfair to stick Tatis in the Cora/GMjr/Marlon Anderson category.
The only real issue I have with this off-season is signing Bay and then failing to sign a pitcher, or anyone else.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
But after they seemingly decided not to chase Holliday
Wouldn’t Bay have been the next best thing? Assuming he doesn’t begin to deteriorate earlier than expected, for this season he’d be a nice compliment for Reyes, Wright & Beltran when he’s ready to come back.
Coming this April, fun times with Jeff and Gary!
To me Bay only makes sense
if you’re planning on making a BIG push this year, because this is the only year he’s going to retain his value. I don’t know if they really just didn’t like the prices for the FA pitchers, or just didn’t really like any of them but signing Bay this year and not adding anyone else just seems to me like a complete lack of a plan. Just lets go get one big name and hope that makes people happy and if it doesn’t work we’ll try again next year.
It makes sense to me to sign someone who’s going to quickly be losing value if you’re planning on making a big push the first year/two of their contract, and you bring in a bunch of other guys on short 1-2 year deals, but signing someone like Bay and basically leaving the team as is means the only year he’s really likely to be worth the price we’re not going to come close to competing anyway. Now if they had signed a Harden/Sheets/Piniero, brought in someone like Lopez/Hudson and maybe someone else on a short-term deal then I would be perfectly fine with the Bay deal because the marginal value of a win would be higher and even if it didn’t work out at least there was a decisive plan behind it.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
With the exception of Harden, all of those guys you mentioned were still available after the Bay signing.
The Mets actaully had the best offer to Piniero, he just didn’t want to come here. I think Omar was in on Sheets, but Beane offered a ridiculous contract. Lopez and Hudson are both still available. It’s hard to criticize Omar for any of those moves.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
I could be wrong but I'm pretty certain several reports said Piniero wanted to come here
but instead of making an offer to him we spent a month “focusing on” negotiating with Molina before ever making Piniero an offer and by then other teams were interested and negotiating with him. Plus there’s also guys like Zaun, bringing in someone like Randy Winn, or Ankiel or Byrnes, rather than trading for GMjr or signing Frenchy for 5 million.
And as far as Hudson/Lopez I’m pretty certain once they inked Cora to that 2 million deal any chance of bringing them in was gone. They’ve made it incredibly clear they’re not going to sign a 2nd basemen unless they can move Castillo, and I definitely doubt they’re going to be paying 8 million for 2nd and third string 2nd basemen on top of paying for someone else.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
My mistake...I thought we had offered 2/16 when he had signed for 2/15.
It turns out that the oppositewas reported. Hard to say where he’d have gone for the same money, reports were coming out before he signed that he preferred LA.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
I still the Mets can make that big push
in 2011 with Bay. That class will be deep & with the Mets not spending all that much now, I guess management is sort of preparing themselves for that offseason.
Coming this April, fun times with Jeff and Gary!
They have 119 committed to I believe 9 or 10 players
that’s doesn’t really leave a lot to work with, especially since up to another 15 or so million could go to arbitration eligble players.
And there’s no guarantee most of the big names for 2011 will hit the market. Mauer, Pujols, and possibly Beckett seem pretty likely to re-up. And I imagine if the rays can’t resign Crawford they’ll end up trading him to someone who will. Plus with all the reports that we weren’t particularly high on most free agents lists this year I don’t think another .500 season is going to make us more attractive.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
For 2011
Cot’s baseball contracts has them at 86 as it stands now although it’s not taking arbitration eligible players into account.
Coming this April, fun times with Jeff and Gary!
I'm looking at Cots spread sheet right now and it has us at 108 million
before picking up Reyes’s option.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
I'll post the link I'm looking at
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p4ew-fwu2XT3cpPRtt9qIGw
Coming this April, fun times with Jeff and Gary!
I think that may be the lt number
since it says it’s going by the AAV of the contracts, not what they’re actually paying in 2011. Here’s cot’s spread sheet with the players and what they’re owed listed.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
That was the numbers at the end of last offseason.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 2:41 PM EST up reply actions
Here's the one you want...
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 2:48 PM EST up reply actions
That's not right...Cots has them listedat about 108
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
Plus even the appearance of putting wins/losses above players health can't help
and if that’s our only method of acquiring players….
I'm not happy with the rotation, but I'm not too upset that we missed out on most of the pitchers so far.
I thought Harden’s deal would have been a good fit for the Mets, but he’s the only one I’d have really wanted at the deal he signed (Garland signed cheap, but he kinda sucks). Piniero may be worth it, but he may not. We don’t really have the infield defense to take advantage of his strength anyway. Wolf got a pretty big deal, and I just don’t think he’s worth it. The way it shook out, a trade may be the best way to get a guy, and that is still a possibility.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 1:35 PM EST up reply actions
what i don't get is why you all are digging in on the issue of Tatis
James is going all in on Tatis, fine. That’s his prerogative. Though it’s a bit unsettling to see such an abrupt about face: after months of righteous anger and disappointment, now Omar is being lauded for signing an aging journeyman in part because he’s “a positive addition to the clubhouse” (which, though you may be gesturing at versatility their, sounds awful intangible).
And most everyone agrees. I understand the bandwagoning effect around here is pretty strong because the quality of opinions is generally pretty high, but do you folks really want to stake your reps on the Tatis signing? It’s funny that it seems most energy is spent here defending to the death, or criticizing to the high heavens certain marginal players—Stokes, Santos, Nick Evans, Frenchy, and now Tatis. I’d guess this is emblematic the resignation seeping into our robot brain models as we realize this is the team we have and adjust to low hopes.
I think Cameron has a pretty strong point—its not unreasonable to be underwhelmed that this the best Omar could come up with. So, I guess I, uh dissent, James. Omar is not being roundly criticized because of “fashion” or fad, but because he is orchestrating a catastrophic systemic failure that is robbing us of the potential of the finest core in memory. Signing Tatis might not be a colossal blunder, but it doesn’t buy Omar that much good will. (Using Alex Cora’s salary as an anchor isn’t that persuasive either.)
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
I think I can semi agree with you and Cameron on that
but only because of the way the rest of the off-season has gone. If we had added a lot of useful risk/reward type players then signing Tatis would be a great because he’s very useful on a good team as a super utility type guy. But on the team that’s currently constructed what he adds is kind of meh. He’s more worth it than Cora and GMjr that’s for sure but once we were already stuck with them we would have been better off trying to add more upside in his spot.
I hope that makes sense.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
yes it's cumulative
it is maddening if reports that the Mets can only do one FA at a time are true. I wonder if this management culture is why Omar often returns to the same old players rather than beating the bushes for younger risk/reward players.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Jan 30, 2010 2:00 PM EST up reply actions
I like Tatis
He’s been here, he knows the deal, he handles himself very well, is always positive, and can still hit a bit, not to mention his ability to play multiple positions.
I also think that the Mets did good by not overspending this offseason just to bring in some slight improvement (Marquis etc.). While pitching is still the biggest need, the FA market was not overflowing with great talent. I don’t see the point in overpaying for mediocrity. Yes, we overpaid Perez, but everyone is not perfect, it was a gamble and so far it hasn’t worked. Not every gamble wins the big prize.
I like Omar overall, and nitpicking him is not something I do. Sure i’d like to see better results, but this constant cry of “Fire Omar” isn’t of any productive value really. Stability is something the Mets desperately need in the front office, and personally i’d keep Omar regardless of how this upcoming season shakes out.
by bigaudio on Jan 30, 2010 2:11 PM EST reply actions
I think there's a difference between good gambles and bad gambles
Perez was a bad gamble, his peripherals had been declining, and he’d been losing velocity and at best he might have ended up being just worth what he was being paid. Guys like Sheets/Harden/Piniero are good gambles because at worse they’ll likely end up being worth what they paid and at best they’ll far surpass it.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
I agree
I agree Perez was a iffy gamble, but he was rewarded for what he had shown us previously. He did have a bad knee which could have affected his velocity etc. I think the jury is still out on that signing but at this point it isn’t looking good. I don’t think Sheets was worth 10M, not coming off his latest injury. Harden I would have liked, Piniero eh not as much. But again, the talent available wasn’t top-drawer, and I can understand why the Mets did not open the vaults for those players.
Pelfrey needs to step up, as does Perez. We shall see if they can.
by bigaudio on Jan 30, 2010 2:18 PM EST up reply actions
I agree on Harden, but not the other two.
Piniero of last year would be worth more, but Piniero of the previous 4 would be worth less than he’s being paid. A guy who hasn’t pitched in over a season has a good chance to be worth less than 10 million.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 2:18 PM EST up reply actions
I can understand with Sheets
but I think for a team with our payroll, that’s as far under the lt threshold and last years payroll as we are, 10 million for one year shouldn’t be that much of a gamble. And I think even in previous years Piniero has been worth about 8 million per. And like I said before I could live with not making those gambles if they hadn’t signed Bay, but once they signed him I think they should have made a commitment to make a big push this year.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
NEVER pay a guy on a career year or a big post-season
Piniero was over the top on a good staff where he had no pressure. Whenever he has elevated to a two he has blown up. Sheets is a huge question mark. End of story. the A’s were told by MLB to spend there revenue money. No one else was around. If Sheets pays off the A’s will trade for prospects in June. If it is a bust it wasn’t there money. Can’t lose situation.
by christopherm on Jan 30, 2010 2:42 PM EST up reply actions
Actually the A's were not pressured to spend more money according to Susan Slusser
Oh, and Pineiro and Sheets may be question marks, but they’re still far better options than anyone in our rotation not named Santana.
Whether they were pressured or not that is the reality of the Sheets signing. A’s can’t lose on the deal. It was revenue sharing money. Florida did the same with their young pitcher and that was MLB. Slusser is the Gammons of the West. Corporate mouthpiece
by christopherm on Jan 30, 2010 3:07 PM EST up reply actions
Sure they can lose...
What if he reaggrevates the injury during spring training? He could just as likely miss the entire season as he could be healthy at the deadline.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 3:17 PM EST up reply actions
The league gave them the money and told them to spend it. Where else were they going? Sheets has the biggest upside on the trade block if it goes well. He is a past 1A starter. Everyone else was a 2or a 3 at best whowould bring no great return. There were no everyday players who came close to the value Sheets can bring in mid season trade. It ain’t their money so they don’t lose. If there was no revenue sharing they never make that deal.
by christopherm on Jan 30, 2010 3:27 PM EST up reply actions
Oakland isn't one of the teams that gets huge money in revenue sharing.
The majority of that money is split between it’s 5 lowest revenue franchises, being Florida, Tampa, Pittsburgh, Toronto, and Cinncinati. Oakland recieves some limited revenue sharing money, but it’s not an astronomical amount by any stretch.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 3:44 PM EST up reply actions
I just don't think Ben Sheets is a good use of 10 million at this point.
That money would likely land the Mets Smoltz, Hudson, and Branyan, who are all much safer uses of the money.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
No Smoltz. Glavine was hard enough to watch. Frenchy wasn’t there long enough to hate.
by christopherm on Jan 30, 2010 2:48 PM EST up reply actions
I don't see how Smoltz is a safer use
considering he has similar injury concerns, and is 40, and they seem to have zero interest in bringing in a second basemen. And I can understand not wanting to bring to spend the 10 million on Sheets, but to me if you’re not going to be willing to pay that money then you shouldn’t give the big contract to Bay. And supposedly before even signing Bay, during the winter meetings, they were shocked by the going prices for pitchers, IMO at that point if they weren’t willing to meet what the market was paying them then they should have decided then they weren’t going to make a big push this year. At this point it just seems like they signed Bay to try and appease the MSM and had no real plan of attack for the 2010 season.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
I don't see the similar injury concerns at this point.
Smoltz pitched with some moderate success last season, Sheets didn’t throw a single pitch. Smoltz is also liokely to get about 1/2 of what Sheets got. He doesn’t have the upside, but Sheets would have to be the bigger injury concern at this point.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
SMOLTZ IS A BRAVE
Does this matter to anyone. I can’t stand the guy or any Brave from that era. Nuff said. Don’t matter. He should never be allowed to disgrace our team with a contract.
by christopherm on Jan 30, 2010 3:08 PM EST up reply actions
It really doesn't matter to me.
He WAS a Brave, and he was fairly critical of the organization when he left. He was part of that era when they were dominant, but for most of that time we weren’t very good anyway. I really don’t care if he helped them finish ahead of us all those years if he can help us finish ahead of them now. Players move in this era, it’s something that fans need to accept. If he was a general Douche like Dicktorino or Rocker I’d be against him, but he’s a pretty good guy.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
yeah
depends on how you define “”http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/07/08/national/main628303.shtml" >pretty good guy" I suppose.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Jan 30, 2010 3:25 PM EST up reply actions
wow link fail
added to moral fail.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/07/08/national/main628303.shtml
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Jan 30, 2010 3:26 PM EST up reply actions
at least smoltz won't be devastated either
if he blows it out his ass in a big spot
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Jan 30, 2010 3:30 PM EST up reply actions
I will never forget just how unaffected the Brave Glavine felt when he deliberately tanked the season. Smoltz is from the same cut of fabric.
by christopherm on Jan 30, 2010 3:32 PM EST up reply actions
Got anything to back that up besides their commen former employer?
Like maybe a quote or story or something?
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 3:48 PM EST up reply actions
And do you honestly believe he tanked that game because he used to pitch for the Braves?
That’s just stupid.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 6:26 PM EST up reply actions
I don't really care if Smoltz is against gay marriage
He’s entitled to his opinion and so is everyone else. What’s the big deal. Oh you mean if you don’t support gay marriage your career choices should be limited? Why he’s not a politician. He can freely speak his mind just like any other American. I’f you have a problem with that then you should relocate say to Cuba, Iran or Venezuala.
yes
Smoltz and Iranian govt. do share similar ideas on human rights.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Jan 30, 2010 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
Apparantly so do you
Smoltz is entitled to voice his opinion as much as you or anyone else. If one of your important considerations on roster composition is attitude toward gay marriage you probably would be replacing 90% of every teams roster. Personally, I don’t see what this has to do with why or why not we should sign him to pitch for us. This topic probably can be better explored on a different site.
really? you're going to push this?
@t agee:
you said “Smotlz really is as classy a player as there is” and someone else mentioned he’s a “pretty good guy.”
Those statements are what my comment is directed at, not any of the other stuff about roster composition you are dissembling with. Then you told me to “go live in Iran,” to which I should have responded “go look at American history before you put yourself out there to support intolerance and bigotry,” but I tried to be casual and give you a way out, i.e. to shut up.
If you think Smoltz is relatively classy, then in my opinion that is either a woeful comment on the universe of players, or a highly suspect judgment on your part. That’s all i got for you.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Jan 30, 2010 5:59 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
How does taking the point of view that gay marriage shouldn't be legal make him less classy.
His views are the same as most organized religions, and the article you cited seems to imply that this was the reason he feels that way. Believing that gay marriage shouldn’t be legal doesn’t really affect what kind of guy he is. I wouldn’t vote for him for president, but I wouldn’t cal him out for standing by his religion either.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 6:04 PM EST up reply actions
you don't think there's a difference
between “standing by your religion” and dehumanizing people?
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Jan 30, 2010 6:09 PM EST up reply actions
Meh I can understand where you're coming from
I can see how it makes him ignorant but I don’t think it makes him any more or less classy or a bad person, stupid views don’t automatically make someone a bad/classless person. There’s plenty of perfectly good people who would give a stranger the shirt off their backs and still share similar ignorant views it’s not really a black and white issue.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
Find wher he was quoted saying anything negative about being homosexual.
The only quote you’ve provided just shows that he’s of the opinion that marriage is between a man and a woman (which is exactly what his religion teaches). It doesn’t say anything about his views on homosexuals, or anything about his moral fabric. The legality of gay marriage is a political issue. The fact that you’re willing to call him out on his morals because his political views differ from yours actually speak more negatively about you than him. If you actually found something he said that was bashing homosexuals (instead of legal issues with marriage), I’d be more inclined to agree with you.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
equating gay marriage to
marrying animals is enough for many people. There’s a difference between having private religious beliefs and publicly spreading ignorant ideas that equate people whose lives you don’t agree with with subhumans. But I can’t convince you if you’re meh about the topic, and it ain’t worth my time.
Plus it’s probably rude to have political discussions on someone else’s blog and this isn’t my blog, but you’re welcome to come expand on your personal attacks since I happen to have a post up right now on this (I’d try to get to it next week when I get home).
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Jan 30, 2010 6:29 PM EST up reply actions
What personal attack?
I mentioned that calling him out as a moral failure for having differing political views from yours as being somewhat ironic. There’s no personal attack there, I’m simply asking you to find a quote that isn’t about a legality issue with gay marriage if you’re going to comment on his lack of moral fiber.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 6:39 PM EST up reply actions
You guys really don't want to discuss this here.
It’s very clearly stated in the guidelines that we don’t talk politics and religion here.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 30, 2010 6:42 PM EST up reply actions
I'm talking about Smoltz and whether he's a good classy guy
but what direction does this sound like it is going to you?
“The fact that you’re willing to call him out on his morals because his political views differ from yours actually speak more negatively about you than him.”
again, let’s shelve this or bring it somewhere else.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Jan 30, 2010 6:42 PM EST up reply actions
You're calling out Smoltz for his lack of morals, but backing it up with a quote about a legal issue.
If you actually provide a quote which implies he has an issue with homosexuals, I’d be inclined to agree with your assesment of him. Right now all you’ve provided is a quote about his political views. This isn’t a political discussion, it’s about backing up your statement about a guys character or lack of it with a quote that actually backs up your point of view on that player’s character.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 6:50 PM EST up reply actions
Glavine and Smoltz both played the majority of their careers in Atlanta, but thats as far as the comp should go.
The fact that Glavine made a douche comment after his meltdown should have nothing to do with our perception of Smoltz. That’s like hating all Dominican’s because you dislike Jose Reyes dancing.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
Eddie Coleman on the FAN talking Mets
FYI
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
Made a statement that 50 fieldable balls went between 2b and SS last season... :-0
Holy crap.
"Wait till Biggus Dickus hears about this!"
by scott from peekskill on Jan 30, 2010 3:44 PM EST up reply actions
I mean considering who we had playing there
it could have been worse right?
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
Mike Pelfrey just died a little inside
realizing Castillo is still at second
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Jan 30, 2010 5:06 PM EST up reply actions
I'm pretty sure he's been dead on the inside
since the deal was inked.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
Mike Pelfrey's soul is inside his tongue
it’s a scientific fact.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Jan 30, 2010 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
Tatis isn't the greatest signing in the world, but it is a good one
Especially for a team that has such “questionable” depth on it.
I do agree that this is not the best we should’ve settled for, especially when you consider Adam LaRoche was out there for cheap, and the fact that Russell Branyan is still out there.
However, I find it kind of bizarre that Cameron, who runs a statistics based website, would insinuate that Garko is better than Tatis, especially when he probably knows that’s not the case.
Omar sticking to his guns
Omar knows his head is on the block. And he is showing confidence in his signings and if he is going down he will with the deck he dealt. He’s not going to panic and blow 10-20 mil trying to fix something he built and obviously by his SNY interview still believes in. I am not saying it will work, but give credit for the fact that he still believes in the contracts he wrote. Hopefully the players realize this too.
for whatever its worth
it seems like smoltz’s brave ties are going to be a moot point anyway.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
huh?
I joined this site yesterday and all the TC are talking about how omar is doing a good job and not to criticize him…
Why should we be happy? We collasped for the past 3 years (last year was a total collapse).
How can we win games? Oh I have an idea, lets bring back everyone who collapsed and have another round and see if we can do it this year. NOOOOOOOOOO!! Dont give me that bs!
We need to change the culture, we need to bring in different people. I’m not saying we have to change everything we need to get rid of the players who have no use. But you guys will say the stats are worse for the other players (garko etc) and that it wouldnt be an improvement. Seriously stats are not everything, if fans dont believe the players on the field can win what makes you think that the players think they can win together.
This site is terrible, no apologies just how i feel. If you want to ban me, bash me or call your friend omar on me then w/e.
You need to read more than one thread before you form an opinion on the community.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 3:58 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
or at least read some of the comments in the post you commented on
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
and this one wouldn't be a good place to start
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Jan 30, 2010 4:10 PM EST up reply actions
This stuff happens when we get links from Metsblog and people fail the tryouts there
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 4:21 PM EST up reply actions
is it me
or has there been some weird influx over the last week or two?
I noticed it to.
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Jan 30, 2010 5:06 PM EST up reply actions
*too
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Jan 30, 2010 5:06 PM EST up reply actions
If you read most of the threads here
most of us are tired of Omar. But here we’re defending Omar because he actually made a semi-good move.
I’m sorry you hate the site. But I think I found the one of your taste.
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Jan 30, 2010 5:08 PM EST up reply actions
Look
It’s not a great signing, and Omar doesn’t get a pass because it’s not a terrible signing. It’s more that people are upset with the continued philosophy of signing over the hill vets who won’t be as good as they were last year. It never ends. Let’s be honest, Tatis sucked most of the year, and a hot Sept. saved him, or he wouldn’t be coming back. Let’s not compare his signing to Cora, because the Cora decision is so bad, that anything looks good in comparison. I’d rather Evans get all of Tatis’ at bats (if they are going to play him vs. lefties, Evans is better vs. lefties). Tatis can play a lot of positions, true, but he will also go out of the strike zone and ground into many rally killing DPs. This will happen.
OKAY CAN WE PLEASE STOP WITH THE DOUBLE-PLAY THING
I know, I know, Tatis hit into some DPs at unfortunately memorable times last year. Here’s the thing about that: it’s random. The guy was, and probably still is, a valuable player. This has been addressed a million times in comments here already, e.g.:
And he didn't just have a good September
He was good basically July through the end of the season.
by Lunkwill Fook on Jan 30, 2010 4:35 PM EST up reply actions
It's not random
if a guy is slow and impatient at the plate and has a high ground ball rate.
by Mackey Sasser on Jan 30, 2010 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
to explain better
the sheer amount of his DPs was bad luck, but that fact that he will reach for the outside pitch, and roll over on it is not random, it’s a tendency. When you roll over on the ball you hit weak grounders often to the left side.
Let's also not revise history
on Aug. 17 he was hitting .244 with an OPS of .708. He was not good in July.
are you replying to Lunkwill Fook's comment above?
If you use the “reply” button, it keeps things threaded and easier to follow.
and if you picked a handle we would know who you are
by christopherm on Jan 30, 2010 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
we know who he is
anonymous is his handle, you can’t actually comment anonymously. Maybe if you read the blog more regularly before calling out people you’d know that?
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
Are we looking at the same Fernando Tatis here?
July .851
August .811
September .915
That’s pretty good numbers out of a part time player.
by Lunkwill Fook on Jan 30, 2010 10:46 PM EST up reply actions
Oh and he kicked ass in March/April as well.
Basically, he had a bad May and June.
by Lunkwill Fook on Jan 30, 2010 10:46 PM EST up reply actions
Tatis is "a positive addition to the clubhouse"?
I’m confused, I thought we were supposed to make fun of comments like that?
But he built a church!
Seriously, though, I agree. Though he seems like a nice enough guy, that’s a silly argument for adding him to a major-league baseball team.
so is using Cora's contract as an anchor
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Jan 30, 2010 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
At least we didn't overpay for Tatis.
Yes, “He signed for less than Cora” isn’t really a victory, but it’s still a good move.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 30, 2010 6:43 PM EST up reply actions
unless you think
Omar could have relatively easily gotten his versatility and production from a much cheaper/younger source.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Jan 30, 2010 6:44 PM EST up reply actions
Off the top of my head, I can't think of anyone else
Our in-house options are Murphy and Evans. One’s already penciled in as our starting 1B, the other may be a figment of our collective imaginations (and he’s less versatile, too). Lopez fills a bigger need, but he won’t be cheaper. That’s about it, I think. Looking at ESPN’s FA Tracker, I don’t see any names that would be young/cheaper or as versatile.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 30, 2010 6:58 PM EST up reply actions
well I get what you're saying
but you and I don’t get paid as much as Omar to find precisely these players. And IMO the proper time frame to fill the versatile bench spot with something more appealing than re-upping Tatis would be from whenever the Mets were out of the race (at latest) to now, not just what scraps are still left on ESPN FA tracker in spring. I’m betting Tatis will decline or be sidelined by injury (everytime he dives for a ball in leftfield I cringe), but maybe he’ll be fine. It’s a lack of organizational imagination/planning that I hate.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Jan 30, 2010 7:27 PM EST up reply actions
Just looking at the free agent list from this season, who would you have suggested that's younger and cheaper that provides the versatility and production of Tatis.
It’s fine if you’re against the Tatis signing because you’d have preferred someone else, but who is that someone? If you’re gonna call out Omar for not signing these types of guys, provide examples of who you were looking for.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 8:48 PM EST up reply actions
that's fallacious internet argumentativeness
i don’t have to prefer someone else to criticize Omar because you want me to. You’re welcome to use whatever criteria you like for your own posts. Read what I just said: it’s Omar’s job to find such players, not settle for lightning in a bottle journeymen he’s familiar with as spring camp breaks and hope they don’t regress drastically when they slide into their mid to late 30s-early 40s. You don’t have to agree with me or even read what I write.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Jan 30, 2010 9:15 PM EST up reply actions
No it's not.
You made that comment that Omar is paid millions and could “easily find production from a younger/cheaper source”. All I’d like you to do is give me a single example of a younger player who signed for less than 1 yr/1.5 million on the free agent market who can play the number of positions Tatis can and better his production at the plate. You claim it’s easy, so those guys must have been out there. Name one player that signed a deal that fits that criteria (go up to 2 mill if you like) and meets your younger/more productive requirement. Asking you to actually back up you’re criticisms with an example of how it could have been done better is not “fallacious internet argumentativeness” as you put it.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 9:26 PM EST up reply actions
in case you missed it
i don’t have to prefer someone else to criticize Omar because you want me to. You’re welcome to use whatever criteria you like for your own posts. Read what I just said: it’s Omar’s job to find such players, not settle for lightning in a bottle journeymen he’s familiar with as spring camp breaks and hope they don’t regress drastically when they slide into their mid to late 30s-early 40s. You don’t have to agree with me or even read what I write.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Jan 30, 2010 9:32 PM EST up reply actions
I read what you said...Omar needs to do a better job filling out the roster.
That’s the argument that you are presenting, I get that. I would just like to know what exactly you would have him do differently. Give an example and support your opinion. You certainly have the right to present an argument and not back it up with any sort of fact or opinion, but it becomes a fairly lousy argument.
Looking at your comments I can see what your view on resigning Tatis is. Saying Omar should easily be able to do better without providing any sort of example how doesn’t help me understand your thinking at all. Just back up your criticisms with an example of how you feel it should have been done differently (for example preferring Ryan Garko or Russell Branyan) so that people reading your comment can understand your opinion.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 9:43 PM EST up reply actions
well
My argument is actually that Omar should have recognized this need a long time ago, and had his staff search the minors and FAs for someone cheaper and/or younger who could play corner outfield and a few infield spots. That’s his job, to identify the problems and be imaginative at fixing the team within whatever budget he’s given. It is possible he did search, and still settled on Tatis, but I doubt it. One wonders what the hell Omar did spend his winter on. So yes, I said it was “relatively” easy. And that’s how I would have done it differently. To me it’s about process, not naming some or other fringe backup from a list of “available” players that would be impossible to determine accurately in the kind of time I have for blogging.
The assumption that one must always provide alternatives or else hold their tounge always bugs me. This is not the way progress works: diagnosis is important too. Take political science. Should we have to come up with a better system before we want to raise criticisms of “democracy”? After all,as the saying goes, democracy is the worst political system we have come up with, besides all the other ones. Perhaps its not the case here, but making this demand is a old tactic often used to implicitly protect the status quo from criticism. So to is the demand that a new theory be “tested” against old ones as the ultimate way to ascertain its validity. Obviously, this implicitly preserves the status quo, and in the case of the current Mets, I don’t think that will do. Sometimes “testing” makes sense, other times it doesn’t, particularly when the approaches do not share fundamental assumptions.
Speaking of that, you’ll forgive me if I have little hope for following your prescription to your satisfaction anyhow judging from the last time we tangled (documented above) when I provided a link to an exact quote which to me was enough of an example of immorality (right and wrong) to cast doubt on how swell a guy Smoltz is and you proceeded to hector me to give you any example, just one! You decided the comparison he made was a legal issue, a premise I never accepted. Clearly, we are operating with different systems of engagement and are arguing past each other.
What bugs me is that these kind of arguments rarely happen face to face, only on the internet.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Jan 30, 2010 10:13 PM EST up reply actions
Why does this keep coming back to politics?
All I’m asking is what exactly you feel Omar could have done differently than signing Tatis. If you’re willing to share your opinion with us, I think it’s fair to ask you to explain it so that we can better understand it. If you dont have the time to find any info to support your opinion, so be it. At that point though you should probably refrain from saying it would be “relatively easy” to find a better, cheaper, younger alternative. You’re providing exactly the type of criticism this post is arguing against if you’re not backing up your argument with anything. If you have no idea or opinion on how the job should be done better (or just don’t care to take the time to look things up), you really shouldn’t present an opinion on how difficult that job is.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 10:35 PM EST up reply actions
I tried, but why are you arguing with me
if you don’t read a thing i say? You must have something better to do. Let’s stop wasting each other’s time eh?
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Jan 30, 2010 10:45 PM EST up reply actions
Just read the commenting guidelines...
DO
Rely on fact-based analysis. This is not a stats-first site, it’s a facts-first site. Intellectual honesty means being accountable for your assertions, so if you’re going to argue a point you better be sure you have the evidence to support it.
That’s the very first point. All I’m asking is that you provide some evidence to support an opinion you presented. You’re defending your opinion that Omar shouldn’t have signed Tatis with another opinion that better replacements are easy to find. The thing that makes the discussions at this site better than most other blogs is that the discussions are based on facts and opinions are backed up with evidence.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 10:58 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
that's hilarious
you haven’t provided a single argument. Or a single fact for that matter. I was trying to take you seriously. The last time you said anything of substance, it was a totally unsupported idea that Smoltz was a pretty good guy. Just a bunch of juvenile internet chat room tactics, including putting yourself in an imaginary majority, and now holding yourself as the guardian of community guidelines. Have a nice night.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Jan 30, 2010 11:04 PM EST up reply actions
Just refereeing here
Two points for Schmidtcx.
by Lunkwill Fook on Jan 30, 2010 11:05 PM EST up reply actions
I also didn't present an argument that Tatis was a poor signing,
and that it’s easy to find younger/cheaper replacements without being able to come up with even one example.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 11:09 PM EST up reply actions
I don't bash Omar for everything
He has a reasonable track record with Type A free agents such as Billy Wagner, K-Rod, Carlos Beltran and Pedro. The trades for Johan Santana and Delgado/LoDuca were inspired. We’ll see if he got it right with Jason Bay. I still like trading Ryan Church for Francouer who is still only 25 years old and could really develop. But what Omar does on the margins of his roster with the limited dollars the Wilpons give him is baffling. He pads the team with too many past-their-prime, injury-risk players and usually he does this at the beginning of free agency when he almost must overpay. Blanco, Coste, Dessens, Igarashi, Kelvim Escobar, RA Dickey, Alex Cora would all have cost less now, than they did then. And now he has two of the same player in Tatis and Matthews Jr. and he also just added Frank Catalanotto on a minor league deal and he is arguably more versatile than Tatis and Cora combined. Then every reasonable non-John Lackey pitcher was scooped up and he’s left looking at 42 year old Smoltz and may-not-pitch this year Bedard. All of these guys are the type of players that should either be the 13th position player or the 12th pitcher on the team, yet Omar is asking most of them to not only make the roster, but also contribute.
Tatis and Matthews are the same guy?
Tatis is a utility man who can play all four corners respectably, and even play up the middle, should we be desperate, and is roughly a league-average hitter. Matthews is an OF who really can’t play CF anymore (thus limiting his value), and can’t hit, either. He’s about the worst player in baseball.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jan 30, 2010 7:01 PM EST up reply actions
By same guy I mean
35 year old bench players. He didn’t need Matthews Jr at the expense of Stokes and $2 million over the next two years if he was going to re-up Tatis a week later. And the overall point of my post is that there are many 35 or older players on Omar-built teams that are at best the last guy on the roster on many other deep-pocketed well managed teams.
by Nomore Minaya on Jan 30, 2010 7:52 PM EST up reply actions
The Tatis signing was just fine.
On the other hand, it’s not at all contradictory to figure the money spent on Tatis combined with the money spent on Cora would have been better spent on truly bolstering 1b or 2b.
It’s a little bit… I dunno… less interesting than it could be to go after people who think the Tatis signing was bad and that everything Omar does is horrible. It makes for an easy column to write since those folks are so easy to skewer, but it doesn’t actually take on the more interesting issues of how to improve the ballclub going forward.
Just my opinion, at any rate.
Exactly
Between Tatis and Cora it is 2.85 million this year. Tack on the one million that Matthews Jr. is getting add another 1.2 million and you probably just got a year of 29 year old Hank Blalock who can play 1st and backup Wright at 3rd and I even bet could spot in the corner OF spots if absolutely necessary. Each individual Tatis/Cora/Matthews Jr/Blanco/Dessens/Escobar/Igarashi signing is defensible. It is when half the roster will be made up of these guys that it is clearly an inferior team. Omar has basically squandered the peak years of Carlos Beltran’s career. Do any of his defenders really want his squandering the peak years of Wright, Reyes, Francouer and Santana’s careers as well.
by Nomore Minaya on Jan 30, 2010 8:40 PM EST up reply actions
I was with you
till you got to Franceour
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
They should be his "peak" years.
Too bad his peak is about as high as those mountains in Iowa.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 8:49 PM EST up reply actions
I more had a problem with the fact
he implied Franceour would be a mainstay in the line-up…God help us all if that happens. I’ve convinced myself it’s just for this year and once F-mart’s ready we’ll jettison him.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
Given that Francoeur is only 27?
You’ve got to give him a shot and see what he might do this year. Is there anyone better presently on the roster (maybe F-Mart or maybe F-Mart is the second coming of Alex Escobar)? If Francoeur can repeat some of the successes he had just a few years ago he might yet turn out alright. And if he does, and the team is generally held back because of all the flotsam and jetsam that will constitute almost half the major league roster, than yes he’ll have been squandered along with Wright, Reyes and Santana.
by Nomore Minaya on Jan 30, 2010 9:03 PM EST up reply actions
When Beltran is healthy we have Pagan, Tatis, and Evans who should be able to provide at least the same production in right.
Then there’s the possibility that Fernando is ready. Those 4 combined make less than Francoeur. There were also plenty of cheaper mor productive corner outfielders available this off-season.
Now if Francoeur learns to take a pitch here and there, it’s very possible he could be more valuable than the guys I mentioned. If he doesn’t learn to get on base though, he’ll never have any real offensive value.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 9:10 PM EST up reply actions
Fair enough assessment
regarding Pagan, Tatis and Evans. On the other hand, needing three players to rotate in RF, a traditional power position by the way, and have one of those guys also man the 1st base platoon with Murphy – another traditional power position, goes back to the heart of the debate on Omar. Why spend all that money to platoon four or five players that might statistically put up the numbers of just one solid player for just a bit more money than the combined salaries of all those players.
by Nomore Minaya on Jan 30, 2010 9:47 PM EST up reply actions
I think Pagan by himself in right would be fine without a platoon,
and that 5 million for Francoeur could have gone towards a decent starter.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 9:49 PM EST up reply actions
OK I am done defending Francoeur
I go back to my original statement. Omar came on board in 2004 offseason, had Wright and Reyes in place and made a splash with Beltran and Pedro. In followup moves that worked out he did well withSantana, Wagner, K-Rod and Delgado (until this past year when age and injuries did him in). And when viewed that way, Omar’s best moves have been thru free agency and the ability to outspend anyone else on the premier players and the Marlins salary-dumped Delgado.
Beyond those players there have been way too many journeymen players that have been relied upon to round out the roster every single year. And while he fiddles with guys like Tatis, Rome burns for guys like Wright and Beltran.
Are the Yanks or Phillies or Red Sox or Cubs or Dodgers discussing the merits of rounding out their rosters withFrancoeur and Tatis and Matthews and Blanco and Cora and Dessens and Escobar and Fogg and Catalanotto and Dickey and Coste and Igarashi knowing that most of them will spend significant portions of 2010 on the major league roster? And then hoping that absolutely everything falls into place: Wright rediscovers his power, Reyes and Beltran remain healthy, Bay stays healthy and hits with power, Murphy develops power and continues to improve at first, Maine and Pelfrey bounce back, Perez earns his 12 million, Castillo proves he is worth his six million, Niese becomes a dependable #5 finally, the journeymen middle relievers all fall into place?
by Nomore Minaya on Jan 30, 2010 10:12 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not sure I would consider K-rod doing good
thats way too much money for a declining closer.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
That was way too much money for any relief pitcher
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 30, 2010 10:37 PM EST up reply actions
At least we can buy him out for $3m after 2011.
by SeanSchirmer on Jan 31, 2010 12:42 AM EST up reply actions
i'm pretty sure that's only if he falls apart right?
I think as long as he was healthy the option will vest.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
That pretty much nails it.
He really doesn’t need to finish many games for it to vest…it’s as closr to a guarantee as possible.
"We're just as bad as the old Mets, but this time nobody's laughing"
-Dallas Green
by Stephen Schmidt on Jan 31, 2010 12:47 AM EST up reply actions
well there's only one thing to do
brb getting my crowbar
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.

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