Amazin' Avenue 2010 Community Hall Of Fame Ballot
by Eric Simon on Jan 6, 2010 10:00 AM EST
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PrintOn Monday we announced the results of our first ever SB Nation Baseball Hall-of-Fame voting. Bert Blyleven was the only person to appear on enough ballots -- at least 75% of them -- to secure enshrinement. Roberto Alomar fell just one vote short of the magic number, while should-be slam-dunk cases like Alan Trammell, Tim Raines, and Barry Larkin fell well short of the requisite number of votes.
Fortunately, the Amazin' Avenue community had an opportunity to succeed (in a fairly meaningless, token way) where our network of bloggers mostly failed (and where the BBWAA is almost sure to bungle things beyond comprehension). We opened the ballots to our readership and received 117 responses in a couple of days. Here are the results.
| Player | % of Ballots | # of Ballots |
|---|---|---|
| Roberto Alomar | 85.47 | 100 |
| Bert Blyleven | 82.05 | 96 |
| -- | -- | -- |
| Tim Raines | 71.79 | 84 |
| Barry Larkin | 68.38 | 80 |
| Mark McGwire | 58.97 | 69 |
| Alan Trammell | 57.26 | 67 |
| Edgar Martinez | 55.56 | 65 |
| Andre Dawson | 35.90 | 42 |
| Fred McGriff | 21.37 | 25 |
| Don Mattingly | 17.95 | 21 |
| Lee Smith | 17.95 | 21 |
| Jack Morris | 17.09 | 20 |
| Dale Murphy | 15.38 | 18 |
| Dave Parker | 7.69 | 9 |
| Robin Ventura | 7.69 | 9 |
| Andres Galarraga | 5.13 | 6 |
| Harold Baines | 5.13 | 6 |
| Todd Zeile | 4.27 | 5 |
| Kevin Appier | 2.56 | 3 |
| Ellis Burks | 0.85 | 1 |
| Eric Karros | 0.85 | 1 |
| Pat Hentgen | 0.85 | 1 |
Eighty-eight votes were required to reach the 75% mark. Raines fell just four votes shy; Larkin eight. Larkin and Trammell are among the half-dozen or so best shortstops ever to play, with 68.8 and 66.8 career WAR, respectively. These two -- along with Blyleven, Alomar, and Raines -- deserve to be counted among the best in the game's history and should be in the Hall of Fame. It's possible that none of them will be -- at least not this year -- when the BBWAA announces their 2010 selections later today.
Here are some BBWAA writers who get it and don't make vacuous statements like "those who truly watched jack morris know they were watching a hall of famer."
Uhh, I'm sure there are others, and I'll update this list as I find them.
12:45pm: Peter Gammons voted the same as me with one exception: Andre Dawson swapped in for Edgar Martinez.
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Comments
Funny thing about the results
Is that the guy who got the most votes is someone who will not go down as one of the favorite Mets players of all-time, to out it mildly. Give it up for rationality.
How can anyone justify leaving off Blyleven?
The Mets lobby Omar for a plan, and his plan, he likes his plan. The problem is that he didn't write his plan down 'cause that makes it paperwork, and that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?
good question
that was one of the few easy choices
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 6, 2010 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
how did Raines not get enough votes?
Raines is one of the most absurdly underrated players in history. I guess that a) being the 2nd best leadoff hitter in the Rickey era hurts him and b) having his best years in a French-speaking city in another country hurts him too.
Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.
by Greenpoint Ian on Jan 6, 2010 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
Agreed
Just so much has been said about Blyleven over the past few years, it’s indefensible not voting for him. At least with Raines, people can plead ignorance. I didn’t even realize how wonderful his success rate was. 84.7% is second all time behind Beltran. And he has a lot more steals than Voltron.
The Mets lobby Omar for a plan, and his plan, he likes his plan. The problem is that he didn't write his plan down 'cause that makes it paperwork, and that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?
I'll guess too that for Raines there are two other specific problems,
the first being that he played before the offensive explosion of the 90s, therefore his numbers don’t look as impressive as they are in that context, while the second is that he looks like a part-timer for much of his career, when in fact he got bitten by the strike years. If you look at % of games played in each season Raines looks better than if you look only at the number of games played in each season.
Re: HoF voting
via Tedquarters, Jay Mariotti continues to be an idiot.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jan 6, 2010 11:03 AM EST reply actions
Wait
Am I reading that right? Did he say he’s not voting for Alomar and Martinez because he doesn’t believe they’re “first ballot hall of famers” and then says, he can’t vote for Blyleven because he hasn’t made it in all the years he’s been on the ballot? Even though he voted for him last year? What? I… I…I think I just got a brain tumor.
The Mets lobby Omar for a plan, and his plan, he likes his plan. The problem is that he didn't write his plan down 'cause that makes it paperwork, and that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?
This is what I came up with:
Only some guys are allowed to go in on the first ballot, even if Mariotti believes that they are HoFers. However, if you don’t get in quickly enough, you clearly are not a HoFer, unless you are Jim Rice.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jan 6, 2010 11:16 AM EST up reply actions
Jim Rice was feared
If Rice had played his best seasons in Montreal, and Raines his entire career in Boston, there’s no question Rice would have never gotten the call, and that Raines would have been in on the first ballot.
Gawd, I hate sportswriters.
Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.
by Greenpoint Ian on Jan 6, 2010 11:19 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I didn't vote for Raines
I know. I’m a horrible, horrible person.
You don't cheer for the Mets. You drink for the Mets.
I'm still lost about this whole "feared" thing
Chick Fraser hit 177 batters in his career, I bet he was a feared pitcher pitcher because of it.
The Mets lobby Omar for a plan, and his plan, he likes his plan. The problem is that he didn't write his plan down 'cause that makes it paperwork, and that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?
I hate "going there"
but I have a feeling it might be because Raines was a surly African-American. Boston’s finest idiot Dan Shaughnessy makes me think this is the case when he mentions Eddie Murray, another surly African-American among his “feared” hitters.
Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.
by Greenpoint Ian on Jan 6, 2010 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
er, I mean Rice, not Raines
Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.
by Greenpoint Ian on Jan 6, 2010 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
Hey, some pitchers definitley are/were feared
Maglie, Drysdale and Gibson immediately come to mind.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 6, 2010 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
I've always felt that if a pitcher intentionally throws at you,
you’re more than entitled to throw your bat at him. What’s the difference, really?
ironically,
the only two cases I can think of where players used/tried to use a bat as a weapon were both pitchers (Marichal & Clemens). Maybe you have to be a little unhinged to be a pitcher?
2009 Did Not Happen
that may very well be true...the team one plays on has alot to do with it.
Think of this: Had Jeter played his entire career for KC where would he be today?
Alright, who voted for Eric Karros?
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 6, 2010 11:09 AM EST reply actions
He has more 100 RsBI seasons than Mantle
and RsBI is the most important stat.
The Mets lobby Omar for a plan, and his plan, he likes his plan. The problem is that he didn't write his plan down 'cause that makes it paperwork, and that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?
Clearly.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 6, 2010 11:15 AM EST up reply actions
Joe Pos points out in the article linked above
Karros has more home runs than anyone born in New Jersey. So that is a thing.
PS – I did not vote for Eric Karros. He’s got nice hair, tho.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jan 6, 2010 11:18 AM EST up reply actions
he goes in the NJHOF
inductees are anybody who manages to get out of NJ.
(I also did not vote for him)
by KeithsMoustache on Jan 6, 2010 12:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Not a fan
But one thing I’ve noticed, maybe because I was younger and wasn’t paying attention, but it seems like Bruce’s popularity has quadrupled in the 5 years. I never remembering him getting as much press like 8 years ago, but all of a sudden he’s talked about like he’s on the level of The Beatles or Bob Dylan. (Not to say he’s not great or anything, I’m just not a fan)
The Mets lobby Omar for a plan, and his plan, he likes his plan. The problem is that he didn't write his plan down 'cause that makes it paperwork, and that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?
Those who "truly" watched Jack Morris
Reminds me of the scene in “A Few Good Men” where Demi Moore objects, is overruled and then says, “Your honor, I strenuously object.” And Kevin Pollack is like “Oh, you strenuously object? Why didn’t you say so?”
I just watched Jack Morris pitch, I guess I never truly watched him
I never watched Morris pitch
But he played on the 84 Tigers, who won the frist world series I ever followed closely. I was allowed to listen to every game on the radio and stay up late. (We didn’t have a tv – hippie parents and all.) I don’t think that makes him a HOFer, but whatever.
Grission and Husart - that is either the non-union Mexican equivelant of "Starsky and Hutch" or the key to winning the World Series.
I watched Bobby Jones pitch a 1 hitter against SF in an NLDS game
HALL OF FAME BABY!!!!
by Reg Dunlop on Jan 6, 2010 11:45 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
every time jack nicholson opens his mouth is pure gold
though it is kind of silly when he just cracks under cruise’ unbearable onslaught of questioning. oh your repeating your self? asking me 2, maybe THREE times in a row? ok fine, yes i ordered the code red. really jack?
i also like cruise pretending hes good at softball yet the camera never actually pulls back far enough to reveal if hes actually getting any of those practice grounders he’s hitting out off the batters box.
Lets hope that when gut check time comes again the Mets will pass it with flying colors.
Or
Like listening to Jimi Hendrix versus hearing Jimi Hendrix, as elucidated by one Wesley Snipes (CPA) in “White Men Can’t Jump.”
I suppose I don’t hear Morris. I do hear Trammell and Whitaker— now THERE’s a BBWAA shame-on-you— a bit better, though.
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Jan 6, 2010 1:59 PM EST up reply actions
The Tramell case is sad, very sad.
Sadder is the fact that we once had to read these peoples work with no alternative view or recourse. no longer, thank the great rally monkey in the sky that made all the pipes for the internet!
Asking a General Manager to slim down his budget is like asking an alcoholic to blow up a distillery.
by scott from peekskill on Jan 7, 2010 12:59 AM EST up reply actions
I think Mac and Alomar need to be in the HOF
Of all the players on the list, McGuire and Alomar are the only guys I think 100% need to be voted in this week. As a Met fan, I have terrible feelings about Alomar, but when he was not a Met, he was awesome. And Big Mac was a drug user (supposedly) when it was not against the rules. If Bert gets in and those two dont, it will be a joke.
Grission and Husart - that is either the non-union Mexican equivelant of "Starsky and Hutch" or the key to winning the World Series.
I tend to agree
Bert was a great pitcher and deserves to be in the HOF, but he was not as great at pitching as McGwire was at hitting or as Alomar was as an all-around player. The arguments over him have been played out so many times that I think his supporters have almost built him up to be more than he actually was – he was great, but he was no Greg Maddux or Roger Clemens or Tom Seaver or …
2009 Did Not Happen
Well, Mac certainly was no Lou Gherig or Babe Ruth, nor was Alomar a Rogers Hornsby,
by the standards you’re invoking.
for what it's worth
look at the all time leaders in pitching WAR one of these days. Bert is 13th. I would actually totally say he is better at pitching than McGwire and Alomar were at hitting; those two are in the bottom 25 of the top 100- obviously great, but Bert is easily a top 15, 20 pitcher of all time.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
Mac has 1,000 or so less hits than Andre Dawson, plus 8 gg for the Hawk
Larkin should have been a Met in 2000, after Ordonez’ injury…idiot Steve Phillips
probably was in a closet with a female intern.
McGwire also walked 700+ times more than Dawson
And had an OBP 71 points higher than Dawson.
by James Kannengieser on Jan 6, 2010 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
yep, but that said
I voted for Dawson. Of course, I also voted for Big Mac. Guy was awesome.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
Is that a direct quote from Franceour?
Asking a General Manager to slim down his budget is like asking an alcoholic to blow up a distillery.
by scott from peekskill on Jan 7, 2010 1:01 AM EST up reply actions
Agreed
It’s about not making outs, which McGwire made 7% less of the time.
The Mets lobby Omar for a plan, and his plan, he likes his plan. The problem is that he didn't write his plan down 'cause that makes it paperwork, and that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?
Mac was terrific, my point is that to put Dawson's career in perspective......300 plus stolen bases and
1000 hits should at least equal or trump 700 or so walks……
There's that other stat, though, where the ball goes over the fence...
what’s that called again?
But Dawson also had over 2500 more plate appearances
To accumulate so many more hits
The Mets lobby Omar for a plan, and his plan, he likes his plan. The problem is that he didn't write his plan down 'cause that makes it paperwork, and that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?
Look, I don't think we should be discrediting Dawson as a candidate.
He probably should be in the Hall of Fame. But why choose such a debatable candidate when there are like 6 absolute slam dunks on the ballot?
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
Don't disagree
I’d say there are 7 players more deserving, but he’s worthy of induction. Better players are getting past over is what annoys me.
The Mets lobby Omar for a plan, and his plan, he likes his plan. The problem is that he didn't write his plan down 'cause that makes it paperwork, and that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?
Both, no way.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 6, 2010 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
it's amazing really
Dawson and Raines, teammates on some very good Montreal teams, and yet one is staggeringly overrated, while the other is staggeringly underrated. Did Dawson’s 1987 season (also amazingly overrated) really make people think he belongs in the hall?
Andre Dawson 1987 WAR: 2.7
Tim Raines 1987 WAR: 6.8
Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.
by Greenpoint Ian on Jan 6, 2010 12:02 PM EST up reply actions
I'll admit, I didn't realize just how good Raines was until yestarday, or two days ago, or whenever
MLB Network had a concise breakdown of his career numbers. Basically Rickey Henderson Jr., in an era that already had Rickey Henderson.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 6, 2010 12:09 PM EST up reply actions
like I said above
I think Raines is hurt because he compares unfavorably with Rickey. But that’s like saying Lou Gehrig compares unfavorably with Babe Ruth. It’s not a knock against Raines that he compares unfavorably with a freak of nature like Rickey.
Somehow, a chain of events unfolded that put Steve Phillips in a professional broadcast booth Sunday night so he could rip Carlos Beltran. Try to explain that in any other terms.
by Greenpoint Ian on Jan 6, 2010 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
Not to upset the apple cart, but really were most of the folks on AA
introduced to baseball in 1995 or thereabouts. Dawson is one of the greatest
outfielders in major league history. 8 gold gloves…six straight…Carlos Beltran whom
I love has only (3) gold gloves. Dawson did it all. MVP on the lowly last place Cubs..
To me…he was a similar ballplayer to Roberto Clemente, Al Kaline, and actually
the National League version of Dave Winfield, Winfield had the better career, no arguments. But Winfield had only 1 100 rbi season in 8 for the NL Padres. While Rock was terrific he was an on base, base stealing deamon, he really is close to
HoF consideration, I’m on the fence……but ultimately I feel he’s a better Vince Coleman type…..OBP, WAR, VoRP, are great tools, but seeing is believing…..
The Hawk could run, hit, hit for power, throw, field, the whole package as a ballplayer.
Congrats Andre, I was glad to see you play and perform in the Big Leagues.
I know you're trying to school the young'uns and all
and, hey, I grew up watching (well, listening) to baseball in the mid-80s, but calling Andre Dawson “one of the greatest outfielders in major league history” is a HUGE stretch. I mean, dude was good and congratulations to him, but I’m guessing it wouldn’t be too hard to come up with at least 25-30 outfielders who were better than Dawson.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jan 7, 2010 3:35 PM EST up reply actions
okay fine, name 25-30, in fact do a post for us, and thanks in advance.
Or someone in the community do a post of the greatest defensive o/fs in history.
Thanks for the assignment
I’ll get right on that, chief.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jan 7, 2010 3:44 PM EST up reply actions
Butting in, and off the top of my head,
Ruth
Williams
Mays
Mantle
Speaker
DiMaggio
Brouthers
Hack Wilson
Andruw
Kaline
Tony Gwynn
Yazstremski
Tim Raines
Clemente
Rickey H
Al Simmons
Averill
D Evans
That Aaron guy
Joe Jackson
Jim Edmonds
Cobb
Duke Snider
Ralph Kiner (you can argue short career and Kiner was not noted for his D but his peak destroys Dawson’s peak)
Manny
Stan the Man
Larry Walker
Lance Berkman (Andre without the decline phase)
Vlad
Mel Ott
That’s 30, and there’s plenty more. Those are the guys on a different planet as hitters than Andre.
Remember that Dawson is not in the top 300 in adjusted OPS+ so you REALLY have to believe he was one of the top CFers who ever played during the one thousand twenty-seven (that’s just over six seasons—six—) games he played there for Andre to even be a marginal HOFer. Plus, if you put Andre in you have to put Jim Edmonds in, and all the other guys between them have to go in, too.
The case for Andre (whom I liked a lot as a player) rests entirely on that part of his career where he’s a CFer. As a corner guy he’s not close. After checking I noticed his adjusted OPS, career, isn’t even in the top 350, so CF is where his case lives and dies. He moved out of CF for good (other than 24 games at age 30) after his age 28 season. After that his best seasons were only as good as Matt Holliday’s average season, and Andre had years in his 30s where he was below average for a corner OFer.
The advanced fielding stats at BBRef put Andre around 10 runs better than average per year in the OF through his age 29 season (with a best of 17 RAA). After that he’s essentially average in the OF. For me, that kills his case. His case hinges entirely on whether he’s one of the best OFers of all time, and he’s only worth one win a year out there, and only for less than half of his career. It’s not enough, and unfortunately it’s not particularly close.
That second to last sentence should read
“one of the best defensive OFers of all time,…”
Okay, the first 18 are off the top of my head, the others I got looking at Rally's WAR list
Ruth, Bonds, Williams, Cobb, Mays, Mantle, DiMaggio, Aaron, Clemente, Ricky, Stan the Man, Yaz, Griffey, Winfield, Kaline, Manny, Vlad, Raines, Tris Speaker, Sam Crawford, Frank Robinson, Gwynn, Snider, Shoeless Joe, Mel Ott, Al Simmons, Sosa, Jim Edmonds, Larry Walker, Dwight Evans, Bobby Abreu, Richie Ashburn, Andruw Jones, Jimmy Wynn, Willie Keeler.
That’s 35, and I really don’t wanna keep looking. At least 30 of those guys are considerably better than Dawson, and Beltran will be in about 3 years.
The Mets lobby Omar for a plan, and his plan, he likes his plan. The problem is that he didn't write his plan down 'cause that makes it paperwork, and that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?
Barry Bonds dose'nt count...he could'nt throw. Paul Blair
did’nt hit enough….Curt Flood probably too short a career……Mays, Mantle, Clemente, there’s a start……
Wait, you wouldn't take Bonds over Dawson because of his throwing arm?
You’re just going to ignore everything else he did on the field? Wow. I’m not sure you’re arguing in good faith here.
Next thing you’ll be saying you’d take Dawson over Babe Ruth because Ruth was too fat.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jan 7, 2010 3:51 PM EST up reply actions
I'd take Bonds, but his arm is suspect...whereas Dawson could really throw.
that should be taken into account. that’s all.
Throwing is one aspect of the game
Bonds was an excellent fielder, and the second greatest hitter of all time. He’s a better outfielder than Dawson. The stipulations for being a better outfielder than Dawson is to first play the majority of your career at one of the three outfielder positions, and being better (contributing more) than Dawson did.
The Mets lobby Omar for a plan, and his plan, he likes his plan. The problem is that he didn't write his plan down 'cause that makes it paperwork, and that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?
What what what?
Bonds doesn’t count? Bonds was ten time the defender Dawson was and about a million times the hitter.
The Mets lobby Omar for a plan, and his plan, he likes his plan. The problem is that he didn't write his plan down 'cause that makes it paperwork, and that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?
If you actually think Barry Bonds doesn't count
your opinion is ridiculous, and should be treated as such.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
honestly
if he was going to say Bonds shouldn’t count b/c of the steroids, he’d be wrong (b/c pre-1999 Bonds was STILL way better than Dawson), but he’d at least be making a semi-valid point. But saying Bonds doesn’t count b/c his arm isn’t as good is like saying Roger Clemens wasn’t better than Micah Owings b/c he couldn’t hit as well
2009 Did Not Happen
I think the Gold Glove officially became the most useless award ever
when Palmiero won it playing in like 20 games. The awards are voted on by people who don’t fully understand the game, so it’s not a defense. Look at his numbers, he was a good fielder, good hitter, good base runner and he played for a long time. He didn’t excel at any one thing, and is a borderline Hall of Famer because of it. A stat like RsBI is as weak a defense as the GG one, perhaps worse. I don’t begrudge him getting in, I was on the fence with him, but there were at least 7 more deserving on the ballot.
To put Dawson is the same though as Clemente is ridiculous, and by the time Beltran is finished, that comparison will be as well.
The Mets lobby Omar for a plan, and his plan, he likes his plan. The problem is that he didn't write his plan down 'cause that makes it paperwork, and that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?
Did you ever see Clemente play? I have....
Dawson is slightly rated below Clemete, Kaline and Winfield, but better than
Billy Williams and Jim Rice overall………that’s just my opinion.
There's a huge drop off from Clemente to Rice
One is an all time great, the other was merely good.
The Mets lobby Omar for a plan, and his plan, he likes his plan. The problem is that he didn't write his plan down 'cause that makes it paperwork, and that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?
Evan, what do you think of the advanced fielding numbers
BB Ref posts? For Dawson they give him as 10-12 runs above average a year through his age 29 season, then figure him around average from 30 until retirement.
I don't really know much about them
I was looking at TotalZone which has Dawson at 37 for his career. It’s a good number, but not great. Beltran is actually in the 60s
The Mets lobby Omar for a plan, and his plan, he likes his plan. The problem is that he didn't write his plan down 'cause that makes it paperwork, and that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?
Great vote by the community
Top 7 most deserving all with greater than 50% and the 2 strongest candidates elected.
by James Kannengieser on Jan 6, 2010 12:28 PM EST reply actions
Dale Murphy
Joe Pos’s 5-year “best player in baseball” piece really has me looking at him differently
I've never understood
why some people make such passionate arguments in favor of him. His 1982-‘85 and ’87 seasons were tremendous, but he really didn’t do anything before or after that. There’s no way of getting around it.
Hall of Fame enshrinees have had careers like that.
Look at Koufax. From ‘55 to ’61, he wasn’t anything impressive, and then from ‘62 to ’66, he was Sandy Koufax. In that case, though, I don’t think that comparisons between him and Koufax are very valid because dominated the game like no one’s business, whereas Murphy, even when he was winning his awards, didn’t really stand out that far ahead of the collective pack, statistically, as far as I’m concerned. Pitching performances are usually more impressive than hitting, also…
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 6, 2010 2:30 PM EST up reply actions
Koufax got screwed over though
He wasn’t allowed to pitch in the minors, so for the first two years of his career, he rotted on the bench when he could have been building arm strength and honing his skill in the minors. He only threw in 18 games in his first two years.
The Mets lobby Omar for a plan, and his plan, he likes his plan. The problem is that he didn't write his plan down 'cause that makes it paperwork, and that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?
That's what happens when you're a bonus baby on a good team.
Even when he was “unleashed” as a full blown member of the rotation, he overthrew, and as a result, was very wild and erratic. Norm Sherry, to paraphrase, told him to calm the hell down when he was throwing, and then everything suddenly clicked.
And then, of course, he didn’t have more time to pitch amazingly because of arthritis
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jan 6, 2010 3:02 PM EST up reply actions
Adjust Koufax's numbers, though, for Dodger Stadium,
one of the best pitcher’s parks in history, and he loses some of his luster. I don’t know that it makes his peak similar to Murphy’s but it makes it a lot closer than it first appears.
I'm not about to make a passionate argument for him
but for every 5 year period from 1980-87, he’s in the discussion for best player in baseball (you forgot his 135 OPS+ 1980 season). Gives him a decent argument at least, I think. Probably still wouldn’t be on my hypothetical ballot, but with a better ’81 and or ’86, he might.
Murphy has a good "I was better than Jim Rice" defense
but I’m not necessarily saying that either one of them really belongs in the Hall.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jan 6, 2010 6:09 PM EST up reply actions
Really good and even great, but too short a career as he went down hill really fast,
similar to Vada Pinson (who).
The other ballots listed at MLB.com are pretty decent
Two of them stood out for me tho:
Marty Noble: Larkin and Dave Parker
Ken Gurnick: Blyleven, Dawson and Lee Smith
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jan 6, 2010 1:33 PM EST reply actions
Smith was very good, but not Hall worthy. Parker really could do it all on the field,
and evidently did it all off the field too. He basically Strawberr(ied) his career. As for Larkin he should have been a Met in 2000, but for a (3 year 27 mil) extension demand, and later a change of heart. Certainly, will get into the Hall. Blyleven is a difficult case. He most certainly has numbers. For example, 3700 strike outs represent 6 full seasons of 200 innings plus when the need for only a catcher and 1b for those s/o and throw ‘em out instances. The 60
shut outs is mind boggling these days, plus the complete games, and playing on Pitt, Minny, Cleve, and Cal.
Angels, wow…..it really is hard giving him the nod and not just because he has 16 less wins than the Big Unit. He was’nt Tom Seaver or Jim Palmer, but who was? He did pitch 2,000 innings more than Pedro……In the final analysis….yes..barely….
Wow. This betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of value.
You can’t make an argument for Smith based on TEH FEAR, or that he was a lights out guy for most of his career, or even that he was one of the top ten relievers in history (which is still too many for the hall). So what the hell would the argument be?
I suppose we'd have to ask Gurnick himself.
I haven’t seen any ballot explanation from him. I suppose it all comes down to TEH SAVEZORR
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jan 7, 2010 4:39 PM EST up reply actions
I suppose you're right,
and while Smith racked up a goodly number I don’t recall anyone ever holding him in particularly high esteem. He was just a big guy with bad knees, an admittedly good pitcher in the role, but no one I’m aware of ever described him as great. On top of that he pitched a total of less than 1300 innings while guys like Gossage threw 50% more than that. People at the time talked about Smith as part of the effete group of closers who couldn’t match the real multiple inning firemen for endurance.
all-time saves leader when he retired
it’s maybe the worst argument in the history of arguments, but I’m assuming that’s what the argument would be.
2009 Did Not Happen
Sportsmanship should count for something.
Alomar was terrific, but helped by playing in Toronto, Cleveland, and Baltimore in an era where
offensive statistics exploded, smaller parks, emphasis on on base, steroids/ped’s, and so forth. I know about the gg’s.
It should, and I have some sympathy for writers who will choose to vote for Alomar
but don’t want to put him in on the first ballot.
Alomar did spit on that Hirschbeck
But Hirschbeck called Alomar a “faggot” first.
Thinking back, it was Bobby V. who told the press that it was time for an MLB player to come out of the closet when Alomar came to NY. Guess he was talking about Alomar not Mighty Mike.
Asking a General Manager to slim down his budget is like asking an alcoholic to blow up a distillery.
by scott from peekskill on Jan 7, 2010 1:10 AM EST reply actions
Was the "faggot" remark ever verified or admitted to?
Serious question.
I voted for the top 8 on that list
And Dawson mainly because of an SI article I read recently.
Eric, please don’t tell me that just because Peter Gammons voted similarly to you this year you are saying he ‘gets it’ when he has not ‘gotten it’ for the 12 years I have been watching baseball.
Hey whatever happened with Robbie Alomar and that AIDs thing?
was that true or just a malicious rumor?
2009 Did Not Happen
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