Learning From Your Enemies, Part 3: How Does Their Plan Apply?
In part one of this series, we established a similarity between the 2010 Mets and the 2005 Phillies. Though it was upsetting to look at the Phillies as a model, they did manage to move from the middle of the NL East table to the top in about sixteen months - and that sort of timetable would work just fine in the large media market that is New York.
In part two of the series, we went through the different moves that Pat Gillick made once he took over in late 2005 through the beginning of the 2007 season, and learned different lessons from each move. The moves were surprisingly simple, and the lessons begrudgingly applicable.
In the final part of the trio, let's take those lessons learned and apply them to the current roster. Perhaps we'll find a way out of this Omar-Minaya-inspired funk.
Lesson Learned: Deal from surplus to fill needs. Any fantasy owner could tell you the same.
Well, there's only one place that the Mets might be deemed to have a surplus, and that's in the outfield. Wilmer Flores is not close to ready, there's no shorstop or third baseman ready to step in, the second basemen are all hands on deck, and most of the pitching needs to stay in the organization. But the Mets have outfielders!
Then again, Jason Bay is probably untradeable right now. Ditto Carlos Beltran. And trading a cost-controlled young centerfielder (Angel Pagan) doesn't seem to the be the way out.
Which isn't to say that there isn't something to learn here. Say Beltran goes out next year and re-establishes his trade value with a nice half-season. Sudden surplus.
Lesson Learned: Don't spend a ton of resources on the bullpen, but do spend some attention on it.
Well, we might just be toast on this one, considering the $24.5 million left on Francisco Rodriguez' contract (and the monstrous $17.5 mill vesting option that looms large). Hopefully the new general manager won't send the current equivalents of Jason Vargas, Endy Chavez and Mike Carp to a team for their closer in order to have two over-priced options at the end of the bullpen.
Bullpen performances are so variable from year to year, the best approach is one that retains long-term flexability. Don't sign guys to long contracts if one or two of those years will necessarily be poor, injury-riddled, or both. It's not brain surgery, but it's one of Omar Minaya's worst weaknesses when it came to roster construction.
The right approach would have the new GM gather available arms on one-year contracts and camp invitations. Though Scott Downs has been great for a long time, why sink resources into your set-up man when so many are found on the scrap heap? Instead, invite players like Chad Durbin, Randy Choate, Will Ohman, Chad Qualls ... the list goes on. These aren't names that should demand long-term deals, and it's not even about the specific names - mre the strategy. These names are, however, names that could make up a very decent bullpen once supplemented by failed starters and surprise relievers from the minor league system.
Lesson Learned: Don't muck around with your exciting young starters (like Jenrry Mejia).
Well, that shouldn't be too hard. Start him at Double-A next year, and wait for him to dominate for more than 40 innings before bringing him up as a starter next year. It was surprising to see a player with 44 1/3 innings at Double-A make the regular season roster, but most Mets fans scratched their head at the decision to use him as a reliever and were ... relieved when he went back down to stretch out. A little more work on his secondary stuff, and he might regain the buzz he once had, since his sinker is already major-league ready.
Lesson Learned: Keep the long-term plan in mind, cut bait on short-term assets relatively quickly, and don't overpay when acquiring short-term assets. AND: Give young guys a shot if they seem ready and the team is struggling (a corollary to keeping the long-term plan in mind).
This is the toughest part of the plan for the Mets, who have only Johan Santana, David Wright, Jason Bay, Angel Pagan, Mike Pelfrey and Dan Murphy signed in 2012. They will need to give multiple youngsters a shot (mostly at second base and in the bullpen), which should be exciting and upsetting all at once, but they also don't have a ton of long-term assets in place - especially considering that Wright's deal expires after that 2012 season.
But it also means they'll have some expiring deals they can jettison next year if the going gets tough. Just as the Phillies dealt Bobby Abreu and Corey Lidle in early July 2006 when they were showing a middling record, the Mets should look to deal Carlos Beltran around the same time. If he can rebound a little, he might bring some prospects back at that point. If the team keeps John Maine on the roster hoping for the same sort of rebound, he'll be in the same position. The Mets probably won't get much back for Oliver Perez (badum-ching).
We know what Omar Minaya did when he joined the team - he signed Carlos Beltran and Pedro Martinez and wanted to make a splash. Though the Beltran deal was decent, the Martinez deal was not, and in either case, it looks like the new GM should have a different approach. Hopefully, he will identify the long-term assets, sign short-term free agents that help him retain flexibility, and jettison any short-term assets once the season is out of reach.
Lesson Learned: Back-of-the-rotation starters are fungible - keep the years and dollar signs as low as possible and move on once things don't work out.
The "Don't Sign Oliver Perez to Three Years and $36 Million" rule. This might be one of the harder ones for the new GM to follow, because Cliff Lee is an enticing prize this offseason. If the money is right, it might make sense to build around Lee, given his recent performance in the tougher league, but he is 32, and the GM really needs to do some soul-searching about the timeline for this team.
But if he keeps the money and years to a minimum, the new GM could fill the rotation with some decent names. Carl Pavano, David Bush, Jeremy Bonderman, Jake Westbrook and Hiroki Kuroda could all be had for many fewer dollars and years than Lee, and if things don't work out in 2011, they'll be much easier to send packing. Given the uncertainty surrounding Johan Santana and his shoulder, retaining flexibility is key.
Lesson Learned: Buy low on players that have shown promise even if they are somewhat flawed.
This is the kind of thing that is much easier in hindsight. Sure, Jayson Werth turned out great, but it took a major-league deal to get him to Philly, and you can't just hand out major league deals to players coming off poor seasons like candy at Halloween. But again, these short-term higher-upside deals can really work out, so a couple shots are worth it.
Names that might interest the new GM abound. Willie Harris could be a decent super-sub, and knows second base - his BABIP should return to normal levels given more at-bats. Xavier Nady is right-handed and has hit left-handers well, so he could spell Ike Davis at first or a corner outfielder as well. If Jose Lopez is nigh-free, the potential for passable power for a decent price at a tough position for the Mets is worth a shot. He's no clutch monster, and he has no plate discipline, but he's shown real power before.
And this is only looking at straight free agents. Once the non-tenders come through, the new GM should be trolling the wire, looking for a buy-low. An open ear to the stat guys would help in this regard.
Lesson Learned: Some guys will get away. It's okay. Keep dealing.
This was actually one of Omar Minaya's strengths. He didn't allow too many good prospects to leave the system, and his trade for Santana was actually a high point given the way the prospects turned out. It doesn't seem like the Mets are in position to trade for pieces, but if you're working on the idea that the Mets can contend in two years, then you'll have to let a guy like Brad Holt or Kirk Nieuwenhuis go. There are reasons to like both guys, and there are reasons to be suspicious of them. Depending on the return, you could let them go. Maybe one turns into Gavin Floyd, maybe not.
Lesson Learned: Sign your cornerstones before they hit the free market.
We got this one handled when it came to Jose Reyes and David Wright, but they'll face the issue with Josh Thole and Ike Davis shortly. In those cases, the definition of 'cornerstone' will come into play. Thole and Davis seem more like complementary parts, but if the new GM likes what he sees in Davis, locking him up with a club option for his first free agent year seems like the way to go. Thole shouldn't put up the big numbers that arbitrators love to reward, so keeping him on the arb pipeline might be a better way to go. It doesn't seem like he really has the power or defense that demands a long-term deal, and he might be more of a guy you want to keep around while he is cheap.
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So there you have it. It's not an exciting plan that most want to hear. It's no "Sign Cliff Lee, Orlando Hudson, and Carl Crawford" plan. Instead, the plan seems to be that the Mets need to improve the core and work around the edges - draft well, develop well, keep cornerstones on long-term deals during peak years, and sign short-term deals to fill in the holes around those talents. "Sign Carl Pavano, Willie Harris and Chad Qualls" doesn't have the same ring to it, but it's also much more likely to happen, and hopefully more likely to lead to long-term success for the Metropolitans.
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Not that anyone needs
a lesson on the difference between the Mess and the Phils ….
The phils had Cliff Lee and let him walk so they could land Halladay.
The Mess signed Ollie to 3 years/36 mil.
What more needs be said?
The Phillies also
burned out their farm system, and inked Ryan Howard to a 5-year, $125 million extension (with a club option) at age 30, so…
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Oct 21, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Did they really burn it out?
they produced Hamels and Brown, which is more than we’ve produced in the same time period, and it’s really not even close. And they turned prospects into actual contributing players and WS appearances. We turned prospects into nothing.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon (and Billy King-Paul G B)
they also turned JA Happ into friggin Roy Oswalt
which is just a crime
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon (and Billy King-Paul G B)
Who's left in their farm system that ranks high, or highish on the lists of baseball prospects?
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Oct 21, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
well like I said Brown
and Trevor Mays. and they actually had a bunch of guys topping BA’s lists in the lower levels. They’ll also likely get compensation for Werth.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon (and Billy King-Paul G B)
also
do we have anyone left in our farm system who ranks high or highish on lists of prospects?
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon (and Billy King-Paul G B)
The Mets had 4 within the top 100 in Baseball America's list for 2010
Mejia (56), Davis (62), Martinez (77), and Flores (88)
The Phillies had 2- Brown (15), and Aumont (92).
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Oct 21, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
That's the 2010 list, of course, but...
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Oct 21, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah but 3 of those guys aren't prospects anymore
and my point is kind of they’ve graduated a player like Hamels and turned other prospects into premier players. So I’m not really sure how burnt out their system. Burning it out would be having literally no players and nothing to show for it. They didn’t move that many great prospects and managed to retain their elite ones while still improving the team.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon (and Billy King-Paul G B)
by Gina on Oct 21, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Also like I said above
we may have more in quantity, but at this point Hamels and Brown project to be much better than what we’ve graduated and Meija and F-mart are big question marks. A higher quantity of prospects on the list doesn’t really matter if the few they have turn into elite players and most of ours don’t.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon (and Billy King-Paul G B)
Hamels isn't, and hasn't been a prospect for a while now
he lost that, what? 2006? I’d also argue that Mejia and Martinez still a prospect/rookie, regardless of how many ABs/innings they’ve logged, because of the way we’ve used them. Remove Davis, since he had a strong, full year, and there’s still three, to the Phillies’ two, plus any 2011 additions pending the new rank listing.
I’m not arguing that the Phillies haven’t gone out and used their prospects to bring back players who they still may or may not have. That’s not the point. Who, I am asking, is still of some decent value, that is still in their farm system, and will either develop and debut with them, or can be used as a chip to bring back another player in the future. With the Lee and Halladay deals, virtually back-to-back, they’re tapped out, in that regard.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Oct 21, 2010 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
? My point was they've produced more elite talent in the last
4 years than we have. And even with Ike/Niese/Thole, Brown and Hamels by themselves whipes them out. It’s like whats been discussed here multiple times who cares how many role players they have or haven’t produced when they’ve produced two elite ones? Martinez and Meija being on prospect lists are great, though based on his ranking last year even if Martinez was eligible he probably wouldn’t make BA’s top 100 since he barely made it after a superior 09 year to his 2010 year. If brown becomes a 4-5 WAR player then they’re system has done all it needs to do and likely more than any of the players we’ve had ranked will do since we have no one who projects to be that anytime soon. So I’d say it’s not really tapped out since they’ve managed to hang onto the elite team changers, at least relative to ours. Who cares if you trade 20 prospects a year if ever 2-3 years you produce a 3-5 WAR one?
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon (and Billy King-Paul G B)
I agree with this
Its my view that our farm system needs to be amped up to the point where we produce 2 players a year who can consistently be 4+ WAR players. Ike should be that, but Niese and Thole will probably never get there.
Sandy Alderson for Mets GM
R.A. Dickey for Governor!
well I don't think any system is producing 2 players a year
who will be 4+ WAR talent, not even the most elite farm systems.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon (and Billy King-Paul G B)
That's true
but I have dreams of a Mets team that will win 120 regular season games in the midst of winning 6 consecutive World Series.
I was playing with numbers the other day, and I came to the conclusion that a team needs 75 WAR to get to 120 wins. This would be the eight position players averaging 5 WAR each, four of the starting pitchers averaging 5 WAR each, one of the starting pitchers at 3 WAR, and the rest from the bullpen.
it is very unlikely that something like this will ever come to pass, but it is not impossible. If it were to happen, a New York team would be a great candidate to pull this off because of the financial resources needed.
Sandy Alderson for Mets GM
R.A. Dickey for Governor!
That they produced more talent is not anything I'm concerning myself with.
That the two listed guys they have now might be/are better than the four listed guys we have is also extraneous.
Aumont and Brown are the only prospects that the Phillies have around that are considered by the baseball establishment to be pretty damn good, based on that list last season, and thus, worth listing. Through various means, be it simply not drafting well, trading them for other players, or the assorted other random things that happen with Minor League players, it’s just them. Those two guys. Their gas is running low.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Oct 22, 2010 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions
but my point is its not even close to running low
if you go through BA’s recent list all the low level ones are topped by philly prospects. They’re farm system is totally fine and the upper levels will be replenished in probably 1-2 years, and they won’t need to dip from it before then, plus they’ll be getting two firsts for Werth. They’re using their system exactly how they should be. Producing elite players every couple of years while using the surplus to fill major league holes with elite players.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon (and Billy King-Paul G B)
The new rankings probably won't be out until January
Flores is still a prospect. I think that you could see Harvey, Puello and Vaughn get added, and there is an outside chance that Duda or Nieuwenhuis could make it to the back of a top-100 list.
Sandy Alderson for Mets GM
R.A. Dickey for Governor!
Yes but:
I’m talking about the Gillick Phillies, not the Amaro Phillies. I might do a part 4 where I talk about Amaro’s probs. He hasn’t been as good as Gillick. I talked about 2005-2007 in this trio.
Fred looks like
he’s pondering whether to have Jell-O or oatmeal.
"I get up every morning determined to both change the world and have one hell of a good time. Sometimes this makes planning my day difficult." ~ E. B. White
The Bobby Abreu/Cory Lidle trade
happened in 2006, not 2005.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Oct 21, 2010 12:21 PM EDT reply actions
Just as an aside
I don’t think trading Pagan is out of question. He is going to get expensive before the Mets are any good and there are possible replacements in the minors. Also he’s the type of player a contender would be agreeable to give up a nice package for.
"Baseball is a game played by the dextrous but only understood by the POIN-dextrous"-Professor John I.Q. Neidelbaum Frink, Simpsons
by Blame-everyone-else on Oct 21, 2010 2:44 PM EDT reply actions
he's got two more years under control
and he’s not going to get that expensive he doesn’t put up the expensive arbitration stats.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon (and Billy King-Paul G B)
What stats are used in arbitration?
A slash line of .290/.340/.435 is really good for a center fielder. Similar players like victorino and Curtis Granderson are making in the vicinity of 5,000,000.
"Baseball is a game played by the dextrous but only understood by the POIN-dextrous"-Professor John I.Q. Neidelbaum Frink, Simpsons
by Blame-everyone-else on Oct 21, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
things like rbis, hr etc
are what explode home run numbers. And Granderson and Victorino are on contracts those aren’t what they got in arb. Plus Arb uses 3 years worth of stats I believe and Pagan’s two previous years were cut short by injury which is going to destroy his arb numbers probably.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon (and Billy King-Paul G B)
And also his previous years weren't as impressive
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon (and Billy King-Paul G B)
Ya know...
I know this has been true in the past, but I wonder whether there have been any new developments. I have to imagine that agents would try to float the best story for their clients.
It's a triumph of number crunching over the human spirit...aaaaaand, it’s about time. -- Play-by-Play Announcer, The Simpsons.
by MookieTheCat on Oct 21, 2010 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions
im pretty sure elias handles arbitration
the same way they handle type A/type B. So players agents are probably powerless until a new CBA is signed getting rid of Elias’s archaic standards.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon (and Billy King-Paul G B)
Oh, really?
Did not know that. I thought they were only based on the previous year.
I was doing the math for my AAOP the other day, and when looking at the numbers, in 2010, Pagan almost doubled every one of his “traditional” stats- games played, steals, walks, a bunch of things. It was kinda weird, actually. I was figuring, in arbitration, then, his salary would then also double- from around $1.5, to around $3 million; either way, based on his fWAR, a massive undervalue. If his salary doesn’t increase by that 50% or so, that’s even more awesome, from a financial POV.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Oct 22, 2010 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Well it will probably increase to 3-4 million
when I say balloon I mean guys who go from like 1.5 million to like 7-8 million.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon (and Billy King-Paul G B)
Just for my 2 cents...
This has been a great series. I’m still digesting what In think and what to take away, but I guess my first thought is that the plan outlined here might be better suited to post-2011, not post-2010. As pointed out, there might just be too much shit to flush the toilet at this time.
It's a triumph of number crunching over the human spirit...aaaaaand, it’s about time. -- Play-by-Play Announcer, The Simpsons.

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