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Calls For Sandy Alderson To Apologize For Steroids Era Are Laughable

Ahh, performance enhancing drugs, the favorite finger-wagging topic of the Holy Writers Association Of America. Once the news of Sandy Alderson's hiring was leaked, it was only a matter of time until Mike Lupica or Jeff Pearlman produced a column questioning the role Alderson played in the rise of steroid use by evil pro baseball players. In a minor upset, Ian O'Connor of ESPN-NY beat everyone out, writing a column entitled "About Time To Say You're Sorry, Sandy". Seriously, that's the title. I would have ignored the column, given my regard for O'Connor's work. However, Joe Janish of Mets Today, a writer I respect far more than than O'Connor, posted yesterday that he agrees with O'Connor's silly column. My guess is this discussion will gain some steam in Mets land so a few words are in order. From the ESPN-NY column:

Star-divide

In a lot of ways, Sandy Alderson comes to the New York Mets out of central casting. A Marine, Vietnam vet, Harvard Law grad, architect of a winner, and a baseball ambassador charged to stamp out fraud and drug use in the game's Dominican Republic pipeline.

......

But when he steps to the microphone as Omar Minaya's replacement, Alderson should take the time of offer an apology. He should say he's sorry for being an enabler at a time when baseball desperately needed a whistle-blower and a leader.

He should say he's sorry for allowing the monstrous steroid culture to grow fangs on his watch.

Let's assume for a second that Alderson should apologize for pouring water on a cute, innocent Mogwai and turning it into a nefarious Gremlin. O'Connor points out in his opening paragraph that Alderson was charged with stamping out drug use in the Dominican Republic. Isn't that an awesome implicit apology -- making it one's full-time job to end steroid use by Dominican players? That's not good enough for a man like O'Connor. He needs to hear "I'm sorry", mostly so he can write another column stating that the apology was insincere.

But Alderson doesn't need to apologize. His job description as Oakland A's General Manager did not include "Eradicate performance enhancing drug use in MLB". His job was to manage an organization and attempt to field a winning team. And he was successful. Let MLB execs, the MLBPA and the players themselves police the league, since the steroid question is really a workplace safety issue. It was out of his jurisdiction.

Not only was the steroid issue above Alderson's pay grade -- it's also hard to establish that players even did anything wrong during that era. I understand this is likely a controversial take but it's what I believe. Players acted as individuals when deciding to use steroids. There was no punishment in MLB, pre-2005, for using performance enhancing drugs, hence there was no rule against it. The common rebuttal here is that the drugs were illegal in the U.S. and therefore it is implied that they are outlawed in MLB. The players were breaking the law and should therefore be condemned for their actions. And Alderson should be admonished for not doing anything to stop it. My response is that the U.S. law banning steroids was and is a stupid one, and the laws of the state do not govern morality. I don't have to list all of the silly laws and institutions from this fine country's history to explain that. Alderson need not apologize for the actions of others he had no control over, especially if those actions aren't immoral to begin with. What's next, someone castigating Mike Piazza for not becoming the Harvey Milk of his generation? Oh wait, that already happened.

Note: The rest of this post is an aside.

Years from now, the public will look back on the so-called "steroid era" far differently. The demonization of players will end. More and more people will adopt the following stance, written by Patriot of the blog Walk Like A Sabermetrician, while posting at The Book Blog -- it is my stance as well, put far more eloquently than I could have:

My "givens", so to speak:

* I personally do not care what substances other adults choose to put in their bodies, be it broccoli, beer, steroids, or heroin.  I don’t consider it any of my business, and I don’t grant any moral authority to laws that purport to make it the state’s business.

* MLB and MLBPA certainly can, through collective bargaining, set a policy on steroid use.  They didn’t, at least not until several years after McGwire retired.

Once they make a policy, I respect their right to hold players to that policy and penalize them in the manner the agreement calls for.  That still doesn’t obligate me to bring down moral condemnation on those who violate it, or not express my belief that the penalties are too severe.

* I evaluate baseball players solely on the basis of their on-field contributions.  Anything else is well above my pay grade.  This isn’t the NCAA--there’s no rewriting of history after the fact to pretend as if games didn’t happen when thousands of people saw them.

* Baseball records mean next to nothing to me.  Barry Bonds hit more home runs over the course of his career than anyone else has.  That’s a fact, but I don’t heap any additional meaning upon it.  It doesn’t necessarily make him a better home run hitter than Hank Aaron--in fact, I guess that Hank Aaron’s gross total of home runs contributed more wins to his teams than Bonds’ did.  The emphasis on records in mainstream media and fandom is, I believe, based on a very naive premise that context can be ignored.  Context is king.

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Totally agree about Sandy and this manufactured issue

As for the general steroids issue, I think reasonable minds can differ. It’s not as sure of a thing as you make it out to be that most people will eventually come around to your line of thinking.

by Mount17 on Oct 28, 2010 11:38 AM EDT reply actions  

seriously?

I confess to having not read “Juiced”, so I have no idea when Canseco got steroid going, but somehow, I doubt Alderson was the one supplying the drugs and encouraging their use and abuse. Also, this photo suggests that, just maybe, McGwire wasn’t juicing when Alderson made him the A’s top pick in the 1984 draft.

"It’s just everytime we think the bar can’t get lower, they lower it. Now next year we’ll just be happy to hear that rogue shirtless officials aren’t implementing useless detrimental drills in spring training for no apparent reason."

-Gina, 3/1/10

by Greenpoint Ian on Oct 28, 2010 11:40 AM EDT reply actions  

Is this shopped?

What’s that thing between McGwire’s shoulders and his head? I’m pretty sure that thing disappeared later in his career..

It's a triumph of number crunching over the human spirit...aaaaaand, it’s about time. -- Play-by-Play Announcer, The Simpsons.

by MookieTheCat on Oct 28, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

reminds me of a Steve Martin one liner:

“I love a woman with a good head on her shoulders. I hate necks.”

I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya

by itsmetsforme on Oct 28, 2010 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

"When we walk into a room, all the heads turn

except hers – she has no neck!"

"I get up every morning determined to both change the world and have one hell of a good time. Sometimes this makes planning my day difficult." ~ E. B. White

by CTRefJay on Oct 28, 2010 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

I differ from you somewhat on your take on steroids in general

But O’Connor is still being completely irrational and sanctimonious. The idea that Alderson in particular needs to produce a mea culpa is simply laughable.

by dcmetsfan on Oct 28, 2010 11:52 AM EDT reply actions  

2000 Yankees

How about O’Connor writing an article asking Brian Cashman to apologize for 3/4 of the 2000 World Series Starting Rotation appearing on the Mitchell report? Or he can ask Cashman to apologize for the other 7 members of the 2000 Yankees that appeared on the Mitchell report.

by John Q on Oct 28, 2010 12:01 PM EDT reply actions  

Yeah, this.

Actually, Cashman shouldn’t have to (because none of them really should), but if Alderson does then Cashman definitely does.

Thus Spoke Keith Hernandez

Let's never bunt again.

by Thomas Wachtel on Oct 28, 2010 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think my stance on steroids has been somewhat unfairly colored by the players involved.

I had always disliked most of them – Bonds, Giambi, Sheffield, Rodriguez, Sosa – so I guess I used their steroid involvement as a reason or a rationalization for that dislike; something like “see? They were cheaters! I told you they were bad!” I still feel like that to an extent – I feel that it’s unfair that some players were willing to take enormous legal and medical risks to do extraordinary things, while the ones who weren’t often lost out statistically. I assume like most others that Ken Griffey, Jr. did not use steroids, and he was my favorite player as a kid; I always hated that in the ‘98 home run bonanza, he ended up finishing third, with a "that’s poor" 56.

Long story short, there are a lot of irrational feeling surrounding steroid use in baseball, much like in every other part of being a baseball fan. But I wish and hope that at some point, I can adopt the stance that you quoted at the end there, because honestly, that’s the rational and logical view. And it’s why Ian O’Connor is full of shit.

Thus Spoke Keith Hernandez

Let's never bunt again.

by Thomas Wachtel on Oct 28, 2010 12:03 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

I just got reminded of this, for some reason

Really too bad about how Griffey fell off like that after age 30.

by Brooklyn Tar Heels on Oct 28, 2010 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

also

look at Bonds. He was the trailer his entire career up until age 36. He defied every aging curve that had been established in the prior 130 years of baseball history. Clemens was similar.

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Oct 28, 2010 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, that's not why I posted it, but I agree

He had a very strange career and it would be hard to say PEDs didn’t play a role. I mean, maybe he got huge, and muscles don’t matter (I guess the jury is out on that), and he just happened to get a lot better anyway at the same time. Either way, do we really want our baseball players looking like pro wrestlers? That’s as good an argument against them as any. And if, as some say, they don’t help- then why take them? Then it would just be stupid and a waste of effort while unnecessarily risking arrest/missed playing time.

by Brooklyn Tar Heels on Oct 28, 2010 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

And just think if he did take HGH or steroids (just to be clear, this is 100% hypothetical)

the injury problems that lead to his premature decline probably wouldn’t have had anywhere near as big of an impact (HGH and as far as I know, steroids, allow for the body to recuperate and come back from injury faster and without the same type of diminishing effect on the body).

Save Jenrry Mejia!
In lobby for Chip Hale as Mets 2011 Manager.

by Ogre39666 on Oct 28, 2010 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Meh....

if Alderson personally provided ‘roids to David Wrongz and Jose Laugh-too-much, and this caused the Mets to win teh ringz, I’d be ok with the whole thing.

Bobby V. for manager, Wally B. for bench coach.

by fxcarden on Oct 28, 2010 12:06 PM EDT reply actions  

i'd inject them myself if it meant a postseason berth

"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell

by Rey-O on Oct 28, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't

Why give Yankees fans ammo against us? I want an untainted dynasty.

The Mets GM is Sandy Alderson: A Dynasty is Born
R.A. Dickey for Governor!

by Russ on Oct 28, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

That would be pretty ineffectual ammo

considering the long list of users in the Yankee championship rosters.

Thus Spoke Keith Hernandez

Let's never bunt again.

by Thomas Wachtel on Oct 28, 2010 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

We're not talking about rational people

We’re talking about Yankee fans

The Mets GM is Sandy Alderson: A Dynasty is Born
R.A. Dickey for Governor!

by Russ on Oct 28, 2010 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Idiocy

If we logically extend O’Connor’s premise, I guess O’Connor expects an apology from the hundreds, perhaps thousands, of individuals who in some way contributed to the prevalence of steroid use in baseball. Next, he’ll be requiring every teammate of a steroid user to apologize before accepting a coaching position or entering the Hall of Fame. Beat writers from that era who get promoted to editorial positions will have to apologize for keeping their mouths shut.

But I doubt O’Connor would demand these types of apologies, just as I doubt he sincerely wants Alderson to apologize. Like most sportswriters, all O’Connor really cares about is generating readership, and he’ll basically take any stance that will generate controversy and attract eyeballs.

by englishgrey on Oct 28, 2010 12:09 PM EDT reply actions  

Strikes me

as being a manufactured story. Would be interested to see if it has any legs (or even one leg). Is Alderson next going to be blamed for hiding WMD?

by Skycat on Oct 28, 2010 12:10 PM EDT reply actions  

just read it myself too

truly the work of an idiot. i don’t think he’s serious, sometimes these writers have to be controversial to incite some sort of emotions from people

"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell

by Rey-O on Oct 28, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

this

Lukas is great at what he does, but that article was completely bogus. I can’t take him seriously about anything other than talking about uniforms.

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Oct 28, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

I saw something he wrote about Shea stadium in 2008

I really liked that as well, but the Piazza thing was really disappointing.

Thus Spoke Keith Hernandez

Let's never bunt again.

by Thomas Wachtel on Oct 28, 2010 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good piece

I don’t understand why O’Connor would want Sandy to apologize when in all likelihood he’s gonna accuse him of lying & call him disingenuous. I mean, there were tons of people who called for Mark McGwire to “apologize” for using drugs & when he did, he got called a liar for saying he only used them to recover from injuries. Just moralizing & showing out for the sake of it is tired.

As an aside, I want to punch Paul Lukas in the face.

What's that about?

by Brian. on Oct 28, 2010 12:11 PM EDT reply actions  

That's probably exactly why he wants him to apologize

Gives him more material. Plus he has a pulpit of sorts so he can be as sanctimonious as he feels like being and with steroids he will unfortunately get willing support from others

"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage

by blueandorange4life on Oct 28, 2010 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Even the ESPN.com commenters tore into Lukas

What a moron. And I have at times read and enjoyed uniwatch. Stick to criticizing the Broncos’ choice of socks, buddy.

by HotChipWillBreakYourLegs on Oct 28, 2010 1:48 PM EDT reply actions  

Andy Pettitte - what a GAMERrz!1

Just sayin’.

Excellent - everybody knows that.

by Dandy Salderson on Oct 28, 2010 2:22 PM EDT reply actions  

LOVE

the part about Jeter/ARod.

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Oct 28, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Alderson has no obligation to apologize and it's ridiculous that Connor would even bring it up

I do disagree on your assertion that there’s nothing wrong with people using steroids; there definitely is, at least imo.

There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ

The 2011 Mets- Rock bottom: We haven't reached it yet

by Syler on Oct 28, 2010 2:40 PM EDT reply actions  

I want to just let it go but I'm genuinely curious

In the context of the 4 starred points at the end of the post — which of those do you disagree with? If it’s the first one (which is the biggest one), do you think people should be told what they can and can’t put in their bodies by outside entities? If yes, then that’s just a philosophical disagreement and there isn’t really much else to say.

by James Kannengieser on Oct 28, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

A mix

I suppose in general people should be allowed to do whatever they want to themselves provided they don’t harm others.

But in terms of athletic competition, steroids almost certainly give an unfair advantage to those who use over those who didn’t, and I’m sure some careers ended early or never went anywhere because they didn’t succumb to the pressure of using steroids.

Yeah, the media is hypocritical in terms of steroid admonishing (NFL big example)

I just feel that steroids takes away from the competitiveness of the sport when some athletes have such a distinct advantage over others. Obviously, those aren’t the only performance enhancers in baseball, but they are the most noticeable right now.

I completely agree with everything else there, except for “baseball records mean nothing”. People who argue Bonds isn’t the all time homerun leader are just, well, morons. I don’t think you can totally devalue sports records just because sports change over time.

There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ

The 2011 Mets- Rock bottom: We haven't reached it yet

by Syler on Oct 28, 2010 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sounds like we agree on pretty much everything

The question of whether PEDs are good or bad for the sport is where we differ it seems, and that’s not as big a deal for me as the portrayal of those that did use PEDs when there were no punishments in place for doing so.

I’m assuming you don’t frown upon players who did use PEDs (at least pre-2005 testing), given your previous comments?

by James Kannengieser on Oct 28, 2010 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

A thing:

First, without delving too deeply into politics, I’ll state that I’m pretty extremely libertarian and probably my most deeply hated government policy is the war on drugs. So, I absolutely, completely, 100% agree with you that it’s nobody’s business what somebody puts in their body.

But it’s still a law. If I thought these guys were breaking the law in some form of peaceful protest of the war on drugs, I’d applaud them. But, they’re not. They broke the law for personal gain, and (if steroids really work, which there’s at least some circumstantial evidence they did) in doing so they hurt the careers of players who weren’t willing to break the law.

Here’s a terrible analogy, but the best one I can come up with at 3:15 on a Thursday afternoon. Jim Crow laws were terrible laws (worse even than modern drug laws). I’m glad they’re gone, and I respect people for being courageous enough to stand up to them. That said, let’s pretend there was some sport in the black community in the 50’s and 60’s where you got points for how quickly you got from point A to point B using public transportation. Rosa Parks decided she wanted to do better than she was doing, so she started sitting in the front (breaking the law), so she could get on and off the bus quicker than other African Americans, who had to sit in the back. Other black people started following her lead, but many were afraid of breaking the law, and lost precious seconds to their peers who were breaking the law.

In the context of that sport, Rosa Parks wouldn’t be a hero, and it would, IMO, be right to call her a cheater.

On another note: what a terrible sport that would be…

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Oct 28, 2010 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

So

You think the law is stupid, and it should go away. Yet when people broke the nonsensical law for whatever reason, you moralized about them. In essence, this means that, to you at least, law = morality. That’s fine if you believe that, I just don’t is all.

by James Kannengieser on Oct 28, 2010 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think that's really a fair assessment of his take.

He’s arguing that the context matters, not the law in of itself. It’s about putting others in a position where they have to break a law they might think is reasonable to compete. As you quoted in this very story, context is king.

by yellomellojello on Oct 28, 2010 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Okay

I guess it’s a question of whether you think using steroids directly harmed others. I don’t think it did; cjmulrain disagrees. If that’s the case, it’s a stalemate.

If those others were so against the position they were put in, they should have spoken up to their union and done something about it. It’s probable that some of them did. Apparently not enough though, so it went on for awhile. That’s the way it goes and I can’t wag my finger at anyone who used PEDs because the players (as a whole, via their union) were totally okay with it.

by James Kannengieser on Oct 28, 2010 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

no, definitely not

I definitely don’t think law = morality. Like I said, if they were breaking the law because they all said “this is a stupid law, let’s break it so that the government can see how stupid it is and repeal it” I’d be the first person to stand up and applaud them. But that’s not why they were breaking the law. They were breaking the law for personal gain.

Here’s a much better example than the one I gave above (I had some coffee): the difference between a tax protester and a tax evader. A tax protester doesn’t pay his taxes because he thinks they are morally wrong, knowing that they’re probably going to end up in jail, and I respect them for that. A tax evader doesn’t pay his taxes because he wants to make a lot more money and he’s hoping he won’t get caught. I have no respect for a tax evader, even though I philosophically believe that the income tax is wrong.

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Oct 28, 2010 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Okay, fair enough

I mean I still disagree, but better analogy.

by James Kannengieser on Oct 28, 2010 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

fwiw

I’m not a steroids moralizer – if I had it my way, they’d just be legal and whoever wanted to use them could use them. I’ve come to the conclusion that the offensive explosion of the past half-decade was due to a mix of smaller ballparks, a livelier ball (I read a really interesting article from 1998 about the ball and how it was a bit springier than previous balls), lighter bats, a larger population, increased bullpen use, and, somewhere in there but only making a small percentage overall, steroids.

I don’t blame the players who used, I think the system was set up in such a way that the risk of punishment was so low, and the reward was so potentially high that it’s hard to say I wouldn’t have done the same thing if I were in their shoes.

I do think some players were helped more than others by steroid use, Bonds, Sosa, and Clemens chief among them, but I also don’t think that should keep them out of the hall of fame, nor do I think there should be an asterisk next to their names. For me, it’s enough to think that Bonds, despite his gaudy numbers, is nowhere close to the best player of all-time, and that Maddux was a better pitcher than Clemens. The numbers might not agree, but it’s my opinion, and it’s partially informed by steroids.

My only issue with what you wrote is the “it’s a bad law, therefore it’s no big deal” thing, for the reason’s I’ve outlined above. I pretty much agree with you about the rest.

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Oct 28, 2010 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

You know what?

I’m staying out of the steroids argument just because I don’t have much to add (and in some ways I agree with you while in others I agree with JamesK), but I think you mention something that I remember that I haven’t seen brought up a lot. I remember in the late 90s they changed balls and started using a lighter, springier model. I think that this would not have made as much of a difference, but was both used as an easy explanation for the ensuing offensive explosion (perhaps obscuring the role of PEDs as the whole thing played out) and, along with changed stadiums and PEDs created a perfect storm of sorts.

Oh, OT but…to paraphrase Oliver Wendell Holmes, taxes are the price of civilization. I disagree with your tax evader/protestor view, as each is essentially telling the rest of society that he deserves a subsidy for everyday use, or if he is caught and prosecuted, deserves the subsidy that the court and prison system give to anyone being tried. In essence, it’s about as anti-libertarian a move as one can make, even if it comes from a deeply-held conviction, and not a desire to have a few extra bucks.

It's a triumph of number crunching over the human spirit...aaaaaand, it’s about time. -- Play-by-Play Announcer, The Simpsons.

by MookieTheCat on Oct 28, 2010 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

oh Kamelblaster...

pardon me, but I can imagine a devil’s advocate saying something like this:

“This all seems like another turn of the overreaction wheel, approvingly quoting a blog that likens heroin use to the use of broccoli (heroin? we really don’t have a problem if our society allows heroin use? I’d like to see Mo Vaughn on junk as much as the next guy, but…really you don’t mind if people drive their cars while doing heroin or play the sport you love on heroin? That doesn’t bother you in the slightest, can you imagine having lost some loved one to heroin/steroid use?). It would seem to me there is a better foundation for excusing steroid use in baseball than the acceptance of all drug use, if that’s what you’re into.

Furthermore, expressing our outrage at moral condemnation by morally condemning a bunch of sportswriters writing sensational stories to (shock!) put food on their families seems to be ironic and not just in an Alanis Morrisette way. Methinks the intent behind the original post could be interpreted as an attempt to whip up frenzy amongst the bloggeratti, perhaps a more interesting, nuanced and informed, attempt, but still quite similar in its function to sportswriting trying to whip up interest by using sanctimony. Yawn."

I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya

by itsmetsforme on Oct 28, 2010 4:00 PM EDT reply actions  

.
put food on their families seems to be ironic

couldn’t this be used as an excuse for pretty much everything? also, the media is pretty much the main creators of the anti-PED uproar. What’s stopping them from writing about something more reasonable to put food on their families tables? Aren’t they, in some ways, hurting the ability of the people they write about in some harsh tones from putting food on their families tables by assaulting their images?

mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon (and Billy King-Paul G B)

by Gina on Oct 28, 2010 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

aside from the idea that the PEDs scandal was wholy a media creation deosn't strike me as based in reality

(Plenty of people were genuinely outraged about the scandal, whether you agree with them or not, and didn’t need columnists to tell them. Everything might be mediated by the internet or other media, but that doesn’t mean its all a media creation.)

…my point about that is: i think it’s time to stop slagging columnists for writing sensationalist columns or ones that take the approach that manufactures controversy, or demand apologies like its surprising. Of course they’re going to do that.

The bloggers in my opinion have over done it in many cases. Deadspin’s idea about reports “without access” and FJMs screeds against foolish and empty sportscasting were wonderful when they started, but somewhat less relevant today with the rise of blogs in prominence, and I think, pretty tired. Bloggers do the same things they accuse old school media bozos of, perhaps because they have taken over their functions more generally. With no pay, by the way.

I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya

by itsmetsforme on Oct 28, 2010 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

People won't stop slagging people for writing sensationalist columns because it is BAD JOURNALISM

Good journalists don’t have to result to revisionist history or phony moral indignation to write interesting and thought provoking articles.

There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ

The 2011 Mets- Rock bottom: We haven't reached it yet

by Syler on Oct 28, 2010 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

but is there anyone here (AA)

who still thinks the stuff is “journalism”? Its a horse, a dead horse and, like the first scene of the first episode of the second season of “Breaking Bad,” do we really need to rehash it?

I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya

by itsmetsforme on Oct 28, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I could be wrong

But at leastt AA, we don’t really do much FJM’ing of stuff nowadays. The only reason I did for this one was because I saw a fairly prominent Mets blogger comment on it (and agree with it!), figured it would be all over the place on the Internet and wanted to give my own two cents. I just did a quick skim of the archives and the last time I devoted an entire post to responding to another column or post was in early August, re: Andy Martino saying the Phillies are meaner than the Mets. Sam sorta did it for the Walter Reed thing in early September. Besides that, there hasn’t been much.

So if you’re saying the FJM approach should be curtailed, I’d agree and think AA has acted as such.

If you’re saying the FJM approach should be eliminated altogether, I’d disagree.

by James Kannengieser on Oct 28, 2010 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

ah well

I guess I feel like “we” indulge in it too.

Of course I dont think the FJM approach should be eliminated altogether.
But outrage at dip sh*t old media wags is so last decade—let’s just build our own magical world is all I’m saying. We probably don’t disagree, but when i wrote my response I hadn’t eaten lunch yet.

By the way, your inflammatory post worked on me—I almost missed a major deadline for a huge fellowship that i won’t get anyway.

I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya

by itsmetsforme on Oct 28, 2010 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I've been arguing against James in this thread

but allow me to jump to his defense, at least on one point, re: Heroin use. As a big proponent of drug legalization, I’ve had many people throw the “oh, so you want everyone driving around and OD’ing on heroin” line at me. That’s not at ALL what I want. If someone drives while using heroin, they should get in just as much if not more trouble than if they drive while under the influence of alcohol. And, I would hope that under a legalized scheme, heroin would be regulated and sold in safer quantities than it currently is on the black market.

I can’t find the statistics, but I remember reading that during alcohol prohibition, the rate of people dying from drinking skyrocketed and was at levels insanely higher than they have been at any other point in history, because they were drinking “bathtub gin” and other unregulated types of alcohol that had an incredibly high alcoholic content. Also, with the amount of money that would be saved by ending the war on drugs, the government could fund state of the art rehab shelters in ever mid-sized city in the country and still save tons of money in the process.

Ok, this is getting too close to a political discussion, so I’m just gonna address JamesK on a baseball-plane and then end it.

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Oct 28, 2010 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

This

I just canceled my response to IMFM because this covers it. Big jump from supporting drug legalization to supporting driving under the influence.

by James Kannengieser on Oct 28, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

that's a shame

because i really am curious how quasi-libertarian philosophies so often get linked with interest in advanced metrics, or at least pop up in their discussions.

The part I was focusing on, cjmulrain, is this: “It would seem to me there is a better foundation for excusing steroid use in baseball than the acceptance of all drug use.” I think it is a little irresponsible and maybe even naive to use broccoli heroin use in a discussion of whether it matters if some bazooka juiced or not. Remember, we could have lost Mike Piazza to an attack by a roid raging jackass.

But I also defer to the idea that politics ain’t allowed so I’ll stop.

I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya

by itsmetsforme on Oct 28, 2010 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have some thoughts re: the first point

But yeah, no (more) politix. The rule has been stretched in this thread with my aid.

by James Kannengieser on Oct 28, 2010 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think the politics issue--whether illegality renders something immoral--is a red herring.

To bring this back to baseball, the issue has never been, in my mind, one of laws and lawbreakers. Notice that they haven’t been indicting players on use or possession of steroids charges, but for things like obstruction of justice for lying to Congress etc. Frankly, I don’t think that the argument that steroids are illegal holds much water, at least in its practical application. Steroids have all sorts of legal uses, from treatment of injury to anti-aging therapy (although my understanding is that the latter is subject to debate). Of course buying steroids from a guy in a locker room or otherwise not from a licensed doctor/pharmacist is illegal in just the same manner as buying Oxycontin off the street would be. But where you have this much money involved there is always going to be a way to legally obtain PEDs, whether it’s because that particular drug is currently unregulated, is legal in another jurisdiction where the player uses, or is legally prescribed by a doctor for one thing such as recovery from an injury, but just so happens to assist in other ways. In my mind a player who goes to the DR or Mexico to use PEDs under the supervision of a local physician who practices in a more lax regulatory environment than we have here in the offseason is no more breaking the law than the American tourist who smokes a joint in Amsterdam.

The question for me, then, is whether it is right to use PEDs? This is not a matter of criminal law for me—though criminal law does play a part when criminality is a means of obtaining regulated substances—but is more a matter of private contract based in the CBA and related agreements between the union and MLB. While I personally think that they should be regulated like any other drug due to the likelihood of abuse and side-effects, I think the pendulum of retributive spirit has swung far over the line so that players with trace amounts in their system, that can give no competitive advantage, are being punished for the sins of those who came before. I also think that the oinking of the reporters at the trough is a little self-serving: see what they would say if you try to take away their spellcheck because they, after all, are journalists who should know how to use a dictionary. Imperfect example? Sure. The point is that everyone would be willing to spend a few bucks for something that would make their job easier, or make them better at it, especially if your pay was based on performance metrics that cut such a fine line.

I think the moralizing needs to end, as moralizing obscures facts and can often prove to be more destructive than the perceived ill moralized against. I would get together a committee consisting of baseball professionals, doctors and other sports medicine professionals from both the United States and countries from which many professional players hail (Mexico, the DR, Venezuela etc.), and analyze where the line between safe, therapeutic use and either unsafe amounts or unfair competitive advantage lies for each alleged PED. This would not be a legal decision nor really a medical decision, because there is no authority to create laws nor any authority to direct accepted safe practices among doctors. What it would be is baseball itself setting forth what it feels would be a reasonable line that would remove the all-or-nothing approach. It might also have the side benefit of reducing the market for new substances, or those for which they cannot test, because it would give those looking to improve their training regimen clear guidelines as to what is considered safe and what is not (and require licensed medical supervision in many cases), thus removing some of the financial incentives of a gray or black market.

/end rant.

It's a triumph of number crunching over the human spirit...aaaaaand, it’s about time. -- Play-by-Play Announcer, The Simpsons.

by MookieTheCat on Oct 28, 2010 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

argh it's that guy i saw

when i swallowed the worm on that high school senior class trip to Ocean City. I think he threw a volleyball into my face.

I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya

by itsmetsforme on Oct 28, 2010 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think O'Connor should apologize

for trying to pass himself off as a writer. He is a golf groupie and a Yankee butt-boy. He rivals only Michael Kay in the pantheon of media whiners. When all of the execs in baseball sound a collective mea culpa, maybe Sandy can join in? Until then? Don’t hold your breath.

by jdon on Oct 28, 2010 7:36 PM EDT reply actions  

O'Connor's been this way for years

I used to read him regularly in the ‘90s when he was with the Westchester paper (part of Gannett) and my local paper ran his columns. But I stopped when he wrote that Piazza was only about the money and used the Mets to get more money from them in free agency back in ’98. Only, Piazza signed with the Mets BEFORE filing, so he didn’t field any other offers. But when writing about Bernie Williams, O’Connor only had great things to say, about how he was a Yankee through and through, yada yada bullcrap. Bernie’s the one who filed and used the Red Sox as leverage.

O’Connor’s a hack.

by NJBaseball on Oct 28, 2010 8:54 PM EDT reply actions  

ESPN

Enough said…. What a pile of horse manure.

by jeffro on Oct 28, 2010 11:52 PM EDT reply actions  

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