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Come on Folks, It Wasn't All Bad

I’ll begin with something of a long, drawn-out disclaimer: I have a high tolerance for pain and an awful lot of patience.

For those who don’t know—I certainly don’t keep it a secret—my favorite football team is the Detroit Lions. And for those who don’t follow pro football, the Lions have been terrible for the longest time. In 2000, after a 9-7 season, owner William Clay Ford hired television analyst Matt Millen to serve as team president and general manager. From 2001 through 2007, Millen’s Lions went 31-81, good for a .277 winning percentage. When he was fired in 2008, the Lions were in the midst of the NFL’s first 0-16 season. Unlike some other terrible GMs you can think of—Isiah Thomas, Mike Milbury—Millen didn’t do anything right. He had no experience as an administrator or negotiator. He couldn’t draft, famously spending four of five consecutive first-round picks on wide receivers, and his track record after the first round was nothing short of hideous. He hired and fired head coaches left and right. He hired coordinators those head coaches didn’t want. He refused to accept advice from his coaches as to what kinds of players fit their schemes. He made bad free agent signings and bad trades. He once shouted a slur at a former player in front of members of the media. He was even terrible at showing up at the office. The reason? He commuted to work. From Pennsylvania. And for all this, Matt Millen was the highest paid executive in the sport, earning a salary of $5 million a season. By comparison, Bill Parcells made $3 million. He lasted nearly eight years. I cannot fathom it despite living through it.

Now, I’m not married, and I don’t have any kids, so I feel free to say this (if also a little guilty). The day Matt Millen was fired was one of more joyous days in my life. I had a smile a mile wide. I danced as I walked. People I barely knew congratulated me, wanted to shake my hand, told me how happy they were for me. It was a moment of liberation, one that almost any sports fan can appreciate even if they never experience it. For one day, everyone in America was a Lions fan.

Star-divide

But today is not one of those days, not for me. I began with the disclaimer, so here’s the confession: maybe it’s only because I had to sit through Millen, but I like Omar Minaya; I even think he’s a decent GM. Now, don’t get me wrong. I think he needed to go. Unfortunately, I feel the nature of the business—specifically the part where your performance on the job is the subject of extensive public discourse—makes it very difficult for a GM to be successful for a long period of time. The John Schuerholzes, the Theo Epsteins, the Billy Beanes, the Brian Cashmans are the exceptions, not the rules. Unless a William Clay Ford is at the helm, GMs just don’t get to disappoint for very long. There’s too much money at stake and too much ignominy for failure.

And unfortunately, I think an awful lot of Minaya’s strengths have either been forgotten or purposely ignored by his detractors. Things have been bad for long enough that no one has any interest in the positives anymore. Here they are.

He inherited a terrible team. At the end of the 2004 season, guys like Wilson Delgado, Eric Valent, Gerald Williams, Todd Zeile, Jason Phillips, Victor Zambrano, Kris Benson, and Kaz Matsui were everyday or semi-regular players. Braden Looper was the closer. Although budding superstars Jose Reyes and David Wright were in place, the rest of the organization was built around Mike Piazza, Al Leiter, and Tom Glavine. The farm system, Lastings Milledge aside, was dry. And the front office was an absolute joke: the Wilpons had hired a couple of babysitters to watch over GM Jim Duquette, guys who undermined his authority when it counted. This sort of confusion is what led to the disastrous 2004 trade deadline maneuvers.

And just two years later, the Mets were one strike away from the NLCS after treating the National League like its rag doll for most of the season. Omar Minaya brought in guys like Carlos Beltran, Pedro Martinez, Carlos Delgado, Billy Wagner, and Paul Lo Duca, and also made some savvy acquisitions in Jose Valentin, Xavier Nady, Duaner Sanchez, John Maine, Oliver Perez, Ramon Castro, Chad Bradford, Endy Chavez, Pedro Feliciano, Orlando Hernandez, and Darren Oliver. You can say it wouldn’t have been possible without the money. You’d be 100% correct. But Al Harazin can tell you that the money won’t do anything for you if you hand it to the wrong players or fail to figure out who’s going to fill out the margins.

And after 2006, when things started to fall apart, Minaya retained some of this ability. The Johan Santana trade was a steal. He acquired Luis Castillo for Drew Butera and Dustin Martin. He found Ruben Gotay, Damion Easley, Fernando Tatis, Nelson Figueroa, Angel Pagan all of whom excelled in various roles. Even the moves I didn’t like rarely hurt the team in the long run: Jeff Francoeur, Nady, Lo Duca, Doug Mientkiewicz, trading away Lastings Milledge. Some even helped. He had his blips, Heath Bell being the most obvious. I still firmly believe that Bell—and there weren’t many bigger fans of his than I—needed a change in scenery to blossom, so I don’t really blame Minaya for trading him away so much as trading him away for Ben Johnson and Jon Adkins.

But even beyond the personnel acquisitions, Minaya deserves credit for entering a potentially caustic work environment and stabilizing it, at least in the short term. He insisted on bringing his own people in, guys like the now infamous Tony Bernazard, Sandy Johnson, and Russ Bove. He revamped a medical system, bringing in Ray Ramirez to be the new trainer, who was very well respected, and that worked in the short term, though it is once again under fire. For a couple years the ship was sailing in a direction, and one I, at least, trusted. Minaya identified targets, he acquired them, and it like he was in control.

And for all of Minaya’s difficulties towards the end of his tenure, he rarely panicked, especially after the 2007 collapse. Many wanted him to trade the core. Minaya didn’t, recognizing the value of talents like Beltran, Wright, and Reyes. He believed in the power of the farm system, rarely trading guys away unless he got a star like Delgado or Santana in return. If anything, he was overly cautious with the youngsters, not trading a couple while their values were high. But after the willy-nilly recklessness of the Duquette and Phillips regimes, it was a welcome change.

In the end, how many better GMs have the Mets had? Believe it or not, Minaya has a higher winning percentage than any other GM in team history except Johnny Murphy, who had the good fortune to inherit some great work from Bing Devine and the bad fortune to only serve as GM for a couple years. Devine was great but only had the keys for 13 months. Frank Cashen is certainly the class of the organization. But after him? Minaya might be next. I suppose it's a little sad if that's true, but at the same time Minaya deserves some credit.

It’s true that I haven’t really felt confident in Minaya since the 2008-2009 offseason. There’s always going to be a part of me that thinks losing the 2008 race on the last day for the second consecutive season unhinged Omar a little. The Perez contract was an obvious disaster. Although he had always tended to hand out contracts that were a little too long, he inexplicably fell in love with the vesting option, which led to the disaster that is the K-Rod deal. The JJ Putz deal looks terrible in retrospect. And the moves didn’t look any better as the season began. Ramon Castro for Lance Broadway. Omir Santos. Alex Cora. Trading for Jeff Francoeur. And then there was the whole bizarre Adam Rubin press conference. For the first time, Omar seemed desperate. And it hasn’t gotten better.

So, no, I’m not sorry to see Minaya go. But I’m awfully glad he was here.

Comment 91 comments  |  2 recs  | 

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heh

Fortunately, the Mets really aren’t anything like the Lions. The baseball equivalent would be the Pirates or the Royals. I think the Mets are more like the Eagles: often so close, yet so far away.

"It’s just everytime we think the bar can’t get lower, they lower it. Now next year we’ll just be happy to hear that rogue shirtless officials aren’t implementing useless detrimental drills in spring training for no apparent reason."

-Gina, 3/1/10

by Greenpoint Ian on Oct 5, 2010 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

I was just making that point the other day about the Lions being more like the Pirates or Royals.

That said, it does still kind of sting a bit when you go from the end of a shitty Mets season to the beginning of a Lions season. That call in Chicago….

…oh, and I always watch my Lions games in Greenpoint.

by Jamesir Bensonmum on Oct 5, 2010 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Nah, the Eagles are consistently good

they’re more like the Braves, or the pre-2004 Red Sox.

The Mets are, sadly, most like the Jets. They’ll tease you, but more often than not it’s suffering and misery.

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Oct 5, 2010 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think we’re more like the ’Skins. We bring in higher profile guys who fail and our stars get hurt a lot along with relying on aging veterans who get hurt.

Maybe Clinton Portis can play second base.

by Jamesir Bensonmum on Oct 5, 2010 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

yes, that's a good comparison too

although the Jets last few years have been pretty Mets-like (Favre, Tomlinson, etc.)

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Oct 5, 2010 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

And everything they gave up for Sanchez. Yeah, the Jets are definitely closer to the Mets than the Giants.

Based on that and the hype machine around the Jets, I was really predicting them to fall hard this year. That and seeing similarly hyped Mets teams crash and burn so often.

by Jamesir Bensonmum on Oct 5, 2010 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

Don't laugh.

There are a lot of Mets-Islanders here, and that’s at least as painful.

by Kepler on Oct 5, 2010 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

at least the Islanders had the early 80's

the Lions haven’t been good since like the 40’s.

Of course, as a Mets-Islanders fan, I was born in 1984, meaning I missed pretty much the only good era ever to be a fan of those teams.

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Oct 5, 2010 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Could be worse

I was born in 1988. We haven’t won in my lifetime (either team).

Thus Spoke Keith Hernandez

Are you watching, Tottenham?

by Thomas Wachtel on Oct 5, 2010 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

meh

I was less than 2 when the ball went under Buckner’s leg. Not like I can really claim that one. I’d almost prefer to have been born after it, so I could just be like “the Mets have never won in my lifetime” rather than have to qualify it with “the Mets haven’t won since I was a baby, which I don’t have any memory of”

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Oct 5, 2010 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Lions were dominant in the 50s with Bobby Layne under center. But hey, Matthew Stafford went to the same high school!

by Jamesir Bensonmum on Oct 5, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

50's, right

either way, a loooong time ago. And pre-Super Bowl era barely even counts – it’s like baseball fans bragging that their team was great in the 19th century.

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Oct 5, 2010 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is

a good way of looking at things, I think. End of 08 does seem like a watershed in retrospect.

by deadspy3 on Oct 5, 2010 10:54 AM EDT reply actions  

Don't Forget the Pitching Staff Injuries in the 2006 Playoffs

One thing I think everyone forgets is how lucky the Mets were to even get to game 7 of the NLCS in 2006. Remember Pedro went down in August and El Duque tore a tendon in his calf in warm up drills before the Division Series. Omar’s savy moves picking up Maine and Perez allowed them to get that close to a World Series appearance.

Omar’s big fault is falling in love with his players and giving multi year contracts to guys like Castillo, El Duque, Moises Alou, Ollie Perez. However, he is good at spotting talent and has definately revitalized the farm system.

by millsy on Oct 5, 2010 10:55 AM EDT reply actions  

like many players turned business men

he was great at talent evaluation, but not good at dealing with the business aspect of the game.

He is a little like Isiah Thomas.

The problem is giving managerial level positions that deal with contracts, money and personnel decisions to people with no experience or training in it. Yes, he is good at spotting talent… but there are so many other things important to a GM. Omar is and will be a very good scout.

I am a fan of both the mets and knicks... so just kill me now.

by gbaked on Oct 5, 2010 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

For a talent evaluator...

He sure was bad at evaluating talent. I found it interesting that yesterday after he was fired and right before calling the security guards “the little guys” Omar said that he was a talent guy. It’s his spin and folks have bought it so much. Sure, he’s done some good things and there are some good guys in the farm system, and he’s had to content with ownership problems with going overslot, but his signings, especially in the past couple of years, have been average at best.

His real problem is that he would decide “we need a power-hitting outfielder” and go out there for someone in that category, instead of looking for a value guy or ways to creatively trade to fill multiple holes.

by MookieTheCat on Oct 5, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

If it weren’t for those injuries, we would have made the play-offs.

by Coolpapabell on Oct 5, 2010 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

I mean the World Series.

by Coolpapabell on Oct 5, 2010 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

If not for lack of depth....

(And bad cab drivers) injuries would have meant a lot less. I remember those injuries and the sense of impending doom they brought about. I also remember the Phillies having the best record in baseball this year with tons of injuries, including to Utley. Being a good GM does not only mean having a solid front-line, but also a bench and AAA (AA too) that can fill gaps when the inevitable occurs.

by MookieTheCat on Oct 5, 2010 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

to be fair

the Phillies do seem to have an inordinate amount of luck. I mean, some of their “depth” this year was Nelson Figueroa and Wilson Valdez, who didn’t do much to help us last year.

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Oct 5, 2010 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

well Nelson figueroa

has been better than most of our starting pitchers this year, and was projected to be. that’s not really luck.

mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon (and Billy King-Paul G B)

by Gina on Oct 5, 2010 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

is that really true?

I mean, Figgy hasn’t been better than Pelf, Johan, or Dickey, and wasn’t that much better than Niese (prior to Niese’s last few starts, anyway).

I love Figgy, and was pissed the Mets got rid of him, and think he should have been our fifth starter, but that doesn’t change the fact that he was better for the Phillies this year than he was for us last year.

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Oct 5, 2010 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

for the phillies?

he didn’t do anything for the phillies, he threw like twenty relief innings and they released him after not using him for like a month, he started for houston.

and last year he put up a 4.31 FIP, this year 4.07, not really a massive difference.

and he has been better than pelfrey, and niese this year, and maine, misch, loliver and gee

mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon (and Billy King-Paul G B)

by Gina on Oct 5, 2010 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

and he had a higher xFIP this year than he did with us

mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon (and Billy King-Paul G B)

by Gina on Oct 5, 2010 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dumping Figgy was madness.

Remember that his ML season in 2009 combined with his MLEs in 2009 he put up John Lackey’s season. And Omar DFA’ed him.

Alex, the article just doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. You’re basically patting Omar on the back and praising him because he was able to sit at the dining room table through a meal without farting then giggling, or groping the hostess in front of her husband.

But even beyond the personnel acquisitions, Minaya deserves credit for entering a potentially caustic work environment and stabilizing it, at least in the short term. He insisted on bringing his own people in, guys like the now infamous Tony Bernazard, Sandy Johnson, and Russ Bove. He revamped a medical system, bringing in Ray Ramirez to be the new trainer, who was very well respected, and that worked in the short term, though it is once again under fire. For a couple years the ship was sailing in a direction, and one I, at least, trusted. Minaya identified targets, he acquired them, and it like he was in control.

“And for all of Minaya’s difficulties towards the end of his tenure, he rarely panicked, especially after the 2007 collapse. Many wanted him to trade the core. Minaya didn’t, recognizing the value of talents like Beltran, Wright, and Reyes.”

I don’t want to be unkind, but you can’t be serious. Beltran, Wright, and Reyes were all playing at their peak levels, putting together Hall of Fame seasons. To laud Minaya for not dumping these guys is setting the bar so low a worm could get over it.

Then there’s:

“But even beyond the personnel acquisitions, Minaya deserves credit for entering a potentially caustic work environment and stabilizing it, at least in the short term. He insisted on bringing his own people in, guys like the now infamous Tony Bernazard,…”

So, you’re crediting Omar for stabilizing a caustic work environment because he brought in Tony Bernazard? C’mon. That’s just preposterous.

by Jack Str on Oct 11, 2010 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

Drinking and posting...

Yep, the thought of Ray Ramirez makes me do that too. I getcha. Third paragraph excepted, agree.

It's a triumph of number crunching over the human spirit...aaaaaand, it’s about time. --Vin Scully, The Simpsons.

by MookieTheCat on Oct 11, 2010 4:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

also it's not like it would have taken a rocket scientist

to predict 50 year old El Duque and early 30s Martinez to get injured.

mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon (and Billy King-Paul G B)

by Gina on Oct 5, 2010 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

You are right

It wasn’t all bad. I think he was really good at executing trades. He seldom got burned, and never gave up a Scott Kazmir. He did bring in minor league talent, but the structure was all screwed up.

I think there might be something to the whole 2008 unhinging him narrative. He went from having a plan, to just fixing last years problems. Omar is a solid baseball man. He strikes me-from what little I know- as a good man. But we can’t deny that he was a crappy administrator, and I think that was what led to his undoing.

by Coolpapabell on Oct 5, 2010 11:01 AM EDT reply actions  

Restore the Roar, Not a Lions fan but a well-wisher since I read Paper Lion.

In the future I would hope that Matt Millen would serve as a lesson to any sports franchise owner not to listen to anything television and radio personalities have to say about running a team.
Having said that, I am still not confident that the Wilpon’s will hire the right people. I’m not confident that they will not meddle constantly with baseball operations. As long as the Wilpons own the team, they are going to be hinderances of the highest order. I guess that’s the reason why yesterday felt like such an anticlimax because I know they will do everything wrong.

by aparkermarshall on Oct 5, 2010 11:02 AM EDT reply actions  

Television and radio personalities?

Maybe we can lobby for Steve Phillips as GM?

by pkyankeefan on Oct 5, 2010 4:04 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

No...this guy for GM:

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on Oct 5, 2010 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

that made me LAUGH

"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"

by feslenraster on Oct 5, 2010 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

This almost makes it worse in a sense

Because they were set up for a great run with just a few small moves that Minaya was incapable of making.

It’s hard to believe he stabilized any working atmosphere, when he’s the guy who brought Bernazard in. And while it’s impossible to know what role the medical staff had on certain injuries/rehab, I don’t think we can put that as a checkmark in his favor.

I’d also disagree with the not panicking part. In terms of not trading prospects sure. But in terms of overreacting to past season’s failures? Team needs a Proven Starter? Let’s overpay for Ollie. Team needs a Proven Closer? Let’s overpay for Frankie and give up a ton for JJ Putz and not give him a physical.

by Bieser's Balk on Oct 5, 2010 11:10 AM EDT reply actions  

That's what makes the last few years so painful

I’m used to the Mets being bad. Hell, some of my favorite memories are of the early-to-mid-90’s Mets teams that weren’t even remotely competitive.

But this team, they should be working on 5 straight division titles. They were SO much better than the Phillies in ‘06, and mismanagement caught up to them. From ’06-’08, they were 8 games better than the Phillies, and that was with all the myriad issues Omar brought on himself in ’07 and ’08.

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Oct 5, 2010 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

Seriously

and if 07 and 08 weren’t bad enough we topped them off by pissing away two more years keeping lame ducks in tact for no apparent reason. How much better off with this team have been with a totally new regime after 08, when Wright and Reyes weren’t broken, and still had two cheap years left, and there was no Bay or K-rod contract?

mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon (and Billy King-Paul G B)

by Gina on Oct 5, 2010 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

or loliver

mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon (and Billy King-Paul G B)

by Gina on Oct 5, 2010 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wait what?

Aren’t you aware Gina, that 2009 was the result of injuries only? I mean c’mon, you must have heard that this was a World Series calibre team absent the injuries.

by MookieTheCat on Oct 5, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

This...

Please tell me is anyone thinks this is wrong, because this occurred when I used to work 80 hour weeks and while I DVR’d games, following baseball obsessively was the last thing on my mind back then. Omar in 2007 and 2008 made a ton of head-scratcher type moves, but primarily he made moves that were reactive, and he reacted to situations in a state of panic, rather than assessing options. There also was a willing disregard to patch problems before they turned into late-season collapses once guys got hurt etc. It would not have taken a bunch of stars to be brought in to make this team a perennial contender but Omar seemed to settle in once he had a group and fail to see the need for constant improvement.

by MookieTheCat on Oct 5, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

yup

omar did a mid season disappearing act. He seemed incapable of thinking on his feet. Also incapable of carrying out a plan, since he had none. Sherman had an interesting comment in a recent column—-he said Omar told the Wontpons at his interview that he thought the plan in place was fine: presumably because he came in without a plan of his own; He liked the pitching, defense and athleticism plan, whatever that is. Maybe there were no athletic players available during the season?

by jdon on Oct 5, 2010 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

What was all of that about a plan?

I hadn’t heard anything about Omar and a plan before. Weird.

by MookieTheCat on Oct 5, 2010 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

yes it was really that bad

the worst part isn’t just about Omar tossing about money to bad and mediocre players, but the trifecta of excuses and off-field shenanigans. Because of those things, and his inability to build a farm system, make the right small trades etc, the whole team was brought down by Omar himself, something he worked hard in the beginning to mold.

 Why did the team collapse? why did the team’s and the fan’s morale implode? when you begin to make excuses for losing and that it is ok to do so…that is where I draw the line.

it starts from the head of the dragon, arguably it is the Wilpons, and I smell Meddling Fools when I saw snippits of their press conference…but ultimately it starts and ends with baseball people like Omar.

oh by the way, is it me, or do I precieve that ever since the Wild Card was established the Mets franchise seemed “ok” with finishing in second place?

"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"

by feslenraster on Oct 5, 2010 12:17 PM EDT reply actions  

His point was that things could've been worse, and that things were worse before he got here

He’s not saying that Omar wasn’t terrible, but that he wasn’t the supreme devil some make him out to be.

There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ

The 2011 Mets- Rock bottom: We haven't reached it yet

by Syler on Oct 5, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah but thats kind of a weird point

that it wasn’t that bad because our franchise is so woeful historically, that doesn’t really make it less bad it just makes us pathetic.

mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon (and Billy King-Paul G B)

by Gina on Oct 5, 2010 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

exactly Gina

I don’t like the “pathetic” label.

"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"

by feslenraster on Oct 5, 2010 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't like it either but if the shoe fits...

this franchise has been fairly pathetic, especially when you factor in the whole lack of a salary cap and massive unbalanced resources thing.

mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon (and Billy King-Paul G B)

by Gina on Oct 5, 2010 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

indeed. *sigh*

oh well, at least I can root for another Billy Wagner home-run blown save post season classic.

"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"

by feslenraster on Oct 5, 2010 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I thought his point was not that, but this...
So, no, I’m not sorry to see Minaya go. But I’m awfully glad he was here.

This seems to me to imply that Omar was not terrible, but I get that he’s trying to be nuanced.

Your 2005-10 New York Mets, better than the Detroit Lions.

Oh, and for the record, my neighbor here, who is a good ole boy Braves fan from Alabama pushing 75 years old, saw me on the beach yesterday and, aware of my Mets fandom, said “bet you feel better today.”

by MookieTheCat on Oct 5, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

and this hasn't bottomed out how?

if it weren’t for the Nationals, this team would be in last place the last two years.

"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"

by feslenraster on Oct 5, 2010 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

For my record...
And for all of Minaya’s difficulties towards the end of his tenure, he rarely panicked, especially after the 2007 collapse. Many wanted him to trade the core. Minaya didn’t, recognizing the value of talents like Beltran, Wright, and Reyes.

I like Omar. I too feel as though it was the right thing for him to leave.

However, in the 2007 collapse wake, I wanted a bench clearing in the bullpen. The starting pitching needed a severe correction.

I never wanted to see the core bat leave. It was a pitching problem, which that have hardly addressed, still.

Wilson Hines
**CarolinaMet**
http://wilsonhines.com

by carolinamet on Oct 5, 2010 12:21 PM EDT reply actions  

Omar isn't Matt Millen, but

I think with the stars for cheap and money Omar had, it wasn’t that hard for him to succeed. A better GM could have done better, especially in the final years. I think his main problem was player evaluation, which includes finding role players, which has been said many times before.

by EtSuKe on Oct 5, 2010 12:28 PM EDT reply actions  

this it wasn't that bad

partially because he lucked into a dream situation to start off getting Wright and Reyes

mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon (and Billy King-Paul G B)

by Gina on Oct 5, 2010 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would not say Omar is not a decent chap, but

I wanted him gone 2 years ago. When he signed Ollie, I thought it was the dumbest thing a GM had ever done. At least someone was competing for Castillo. Although I think Omar still overpaid Castillo. Letting yourself get rolled by Boras for a stiff like Ollie, who had no offers on the table, was just the height of incompetence. The final straw was the performance at last year’s Bernazard aloha conference. And you might be right about Omar being number 2. Of course, he has had way more resources than previous GMs, even allowing for the inflation in salaries. And if he is number 2, it is a sad commentary on our team.

by jdon on Oct 5, 2010 1:51 PM EDT reply actions  

yea

the lolliver contract was a firable offense in and of itself. I don’t care if Omar had somehow put together a team that won 10 straight World Championships, if I were the owner I would have fired him the second he even came to me for my signature on that contract

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Oct 5, 2010 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's almost like there were two Omars

before September 2007 and after. From the Pedro/Beltran signings, the Delgado trade, picking up guys like Endy, Marlon, Tatis and Angel (the first time), trading for Ollie – yes it was a good trade at the time, he had us heading in the right direction. Then came K-Rod, Bay, massively overpaying for Castillo, Perez, re-signing Tatis (again), trading for Matthews, trading for Putz., bringing in Sheffield, Cora, Jacobs… If it wasn’t for the Santana trade and re-re-acquiring Pagan (or something like that), I’d be convinced it was two different GMs.

Maybe it was?

by Boz_Paladin on Oct 5, 2010 2:58 PM EDT reply actions  

nah, you can see the same dynamics in his earlier moves.

Omar was always Omar — good at “picking players” and just as bad at valuing future, rather than past, performance. Look at Jose Valentin for one example. Brilliant off-the-scrap-heap signing in ‘06, idiotically resigned to big-money contract in ’07. The exact same good initial move-bad subsequent contract as Ollie or Castillo or Tatis or any of Omar’s more recent failings.

This FanPost, and the ensuing discussion, still provide the best diagnosis I’ve seen.

by anonymous on Oct 5, 2010 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

the part about the Giants being one of the pathetic teams

doesn’t hold up so well in retrospect…

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Oct 5, 2010 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

eh considering they're one of the bigger revenue teams

with about as many play-off appearances as us the last 10 years I’m not really sure how they’re not one of the pathetic teams. Does making the play-offs in 06 make our entire decade automatically not pathetic?

mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon (and Billy King-Paul G B)

by Gina on Oct 5, 2010 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

actually trading for Putz wasn't a bad idea on paper......

had he actually checked out J.J.’s injury history. that is another offense to smart baseball fans.

unfortunately, the weaknesses of Omar was masked by the fact that this team actually was decent until the …You Know What Happened….

"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"

by feslenraster on Oct 5, 2010 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

eh even on paper

I don’t like the idea of moving that many players for a relievers + signing a reliever to the k-rod contract. It seemed like overkill to me. Too many resources into a relatively insignificant part of the team while ignoring other holes.

mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon (and Billy King-Paul G B)

by Gina on Oct 5, 2010 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

my official comment on the Omar years

2006 was great

everything else was painful and soul crushing.

glad your gone and i hope brighter days are ahead.

I hate Philadelphia so much.

by the caveman on Oct 5, 2010 4:40 PM EDT reply actions  

2005 was fun

When asked Thursday if he had entered the World Cup pool, Carter said: "No. I need to hit more home runs."

by isles732 on Oct 5, 2010 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

yea, '05 was fine

it was building towards something. Unfortunately, we didn’t realize at the time that it was building towards an avalanche of pain

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Oct 5, 2010 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mike Milbury, anyone?

When asked Thursday if he had entered the World Cup pool, Carter said: "No. I need to hit more home runs."

by isles732 on Oct 5, 2010 5:30 PM EDT reply actions  

this guy gets no credit .

first off yes duquette was horrible but steve philips for all his horrible personal problems was better then omar record wise or not. secind thing he always had the knack for bringing in latin ball players that were overrated or past there prime and hiring randolph who only got the job because of his yankee new york hometown boy image when we all know he was not qualified to be a manager. and let the bleeding begin moises alou , schoenweis mathews jr trading matt lindstrom bringing in ryan church brian schneider and his infamous expo gig trading 2 unknown prospects to the indians for bartolo colon. those players names cliff lee and grady sizemore there is mr. minaya,s g.m. genius.

lohaus #54

by lohaus#54 on Oct 5, 2010 7:27 PM EDT reply actions  

That Colon deal actually included 3 prospects...some 2B named Brandon Phillips.

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on Oct 5, 2010 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

really did not know that hmmm.

lohaus #54

by lohaus#54 on Oct 5, 2010 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Two things there

One, Phillips wasn’t better than Minaya. And two,

http://www.amazinavenue.com/2009/12/16/1202451/stop-saying-omar-minaya-only-goes

The sun is up & Kim Ng should be Mets GM.

by Brian. on Oct 5, 2010 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

well, no one's arguing THAT.

heh.

"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"

by feslenraster on Oct 5, 2010 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

he was because we went to a world series and he was the guy who scouted david wright okay omar lover .

lohaus #54

by lohaus#54 on Oct 5, 2010 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

oh, I guess I glazed over the entire argument, sorry

"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"

by feslenraster on Oct 5, 2010 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

you do have to give Omar for bringing Pagan back in the fold though.

that was pretty good.

"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"

by feslenraster on Oct 5, 2010 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Although he did sell Pagan to the Cubs originally

So I think giving up actual live bodies to get him back (even if they amounted to nothing) should not be looked at as a positive.

Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!

by Steve Schreiber on Oct 5, 2010 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

Doug Mienkiewicz, Paul Lo Duca, Jason Bay, Ryan Church, Brian Schneider, Jeff Francouer, Xavier Nady, John Maine, R.A. Dickey, Scott Schoeneweis, Billy Wagner, J.J Putz, Tim Redding, Damien Easly, and Gary Sheffield were all Latin America baseball players.

by Evan_S on Oct 5, 2010 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

how many of them were former expos?

mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon (and Billy King-Paul G B)

by Gina on Oct 5, 2010 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Two?

Church and Schneider?

Save Jenrry Mejia!
In lobby for Josh Byrnes/Chip Hale as Mets 2011 GM/Manager.

by Ogre39666 on Oct 6, 2010 12:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

tim redding :)

"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"

by feslenraster on Oct 6, 2010 8:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

OK, three.

Save Jenrry Mejia!
In lobby for Josh Byrnes/Chip Hale as Mets 2011 GM/Manager.

by Ogre39666 on Oct 6, 2010 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Don't be stupid

Canada is in Estonia. EVERYWUN KNOES THAT!!!

Sandy Alderson for GM!
R.A. Dickey for Governor!

by Russ on Oct 6, 2010 7:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

HAHAHA

One of my best friends is from Estonia and since no one ever knows where it is, we always tell people it’s in northern Africa. I’d say 80% of people believe us.

Save Jenrry Mejia!
In lobby for Josh Byrnes/Chip Hale as Mets 2011 GM/Manager.

by Ogre39666 on Oct 6, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're just be too smart for us, Mook.

;)

Save Jenrry Mejia!
In lobby for Josh Byrnes/Chip Hale as Mets 2011 GM/Manager.

by Ogre39666 on Oct 6, 2010 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Please tell me that typo was intentional...

Although I’m not sure whether it’s funnier intentionally or not.

by MookieTheCat on Oct 6, 2010 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, it wasn't all bad in the sense

that no one expected much more from this team, unlike the preceding three years.
But, no other sports fans anywhere have been put through the wringer like Mets fans over the past four years. Getting rid of Manuel was an absolute necessity and it’s no shame that Minaya’s gone, too.

by Southfield_2001 on Oct 5, 2010 9:22 PM EDT reply actions  

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