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Around SBN: Bob Sapp Denies Throwing Fights

Learning From Your Enemies, Part 1: Identifying Similarities

It may be difficult to watch games like Tuesday's no-hitter by Roy Halladay and the Phillies, but Mets fans have to find something to do with their time these days. Evaluating possible GMs can only get you through so much of the day.

Thankfully, there is something to be gleaned from the Phillies. The enemy is obviously a large-market team with the same pressures to compete year-in and year-out as the Mets, and they've somehow managed to finally blend their home-grown youth with free agent veterans to find that winning combination. If Abraham Lincoln so famously learned from his rivals, it shouldn't be beneath the Mets to learn from our turnpike counterparts. Really, nothing should be beneath the Mets these days. Let's put our chinstrap beards on and go.

This will be a multi-parter, as it may take a little time to suss out exactly what this teaching moment can provide. In the first part, we'll examine the similarities between the current Mets and the early 2000 Phillies. In the second part, we'll take a look at what the Phillies did to get over the hump. In the third part, we'll see if the roadmap can apply to the Mets.

Star-divide

Looking at the Phillies' MLB.com History page, a quote about 2004 catches the eye:

A team with high expectations was derailed by injuries and inconsistency in the 2004 season. New closer Billy Wagner was limited to 45 games and had two separate stints on the disabled list, and starters Randy Wolf, Vicente Padilla and Kevin Millwood missed large chunks as well.

It's hard to gauge Mets fans' expectations these days, but it seems like the last three years have been derailed by injuries and inconsistent play. So much so that the injuries begat a slogan ("Prevention and Recovery") and a focus on keeping the players healthy.

The fact remains that in 2005, the Phillies had a young first baseman (Ryan Howard), two young exciting infielders (Chase Utley and Jimmy Rollins), and a home-grown outfielder (Pat Burrell). The rest of the team was filled out by veterans like Mike Lieberthal, David Bell, Kenny Lofton and Bobby Abreu.

The Mets in 2010 have a young first baseman, two still-young and exciting infielders, a good home-grown(ish) outfielder in Angel Pagan, and a bunch of veterans filling out the rest of the team. Though Ike Davis may not be a Ryan Howard, Jose Reyes still has some upside to fill out, and David Wright could actually play Chase Utley to a standstill if you count injuries. And if you count defense, Angel Pagan looks to be more exciting than Pat Burrell. This is not a strictly numbers-based analysis, but the two offenses aren't terribly far apart here. Maybe the Phillies were ahead of this offense in 2005 - Howard has some nice power - but by how much?

The 2005 Phillies rotation was led by underwhelming veterans like Jon Lieber and Cory Lidle, but had some promise in young righty Brett Myers and young lefty Randy Wolf. Vicente Padilla was young, but it was fairly clear that his upside was limited even then.

The 2010 Mets rotation had its share of underwhelming veterans - if you count John Maine and Oliver Perez as veterans. Instead, there's the conundrum of Johan Santana, who has been impressive and somewhat injury-prone in recent times. There's some promise in young righty Mike Pelfrey and young lefty Jon Niese, but Pelfrey doesn't really look like a Myers, and the Mets would be happy if Niese ended up as good as Wolf. Playing the role of 'decent while young and cost-controlled but with an iffy repertoire' or 'our Vincente Padilla' might just be Dillon Gee. R.A. Dickey has no corollary. He's cost-controlled and exciting, but not young. It's not a one-to-one correspondence here - you might want to give the Mets the edge here, at least in 'present' value, but Myers and Wolf would have been ahead of Pelfrey and Niese had they played in Citi Field, most likely.

The 2005 Phillies team had played 2004 in a new park, but had missed the playoffs for all of the 2000s so far. That may be overstating their mediocrity, though, as they had been showing glimpses and had missed out on some wild card appearances by slim margins. 2001, they were 86-76 and finished second. 2002, they were 80-81 and in 3rd. 2003, 86-76 and 3rd, but missed out on the wild card in the final week. 2004 saw them go 86-76 in their new park and fire manager Larry Bowa. 2005 turned out to be an 88-74 season, one game out of the wild card with new manager Charlie Manuel. In the offseason of 2005, the team hired Pat Gillick to be their GM.

We all know the Mets' recent records, but there are some similarities here, as the Mets have stayed near contention most years and have had similar run-ins with new stadiums, coaches, and now general managers.

The last piece of the comparison puzzle is the minor leagues.

Philsprospects05grab_medium
The 2005 Philies Top 10 prospects by Baseball America were headlined by Cole Hamels, Greg Golson and Michael Bourn, but there wasn't another player on the list that really figured in on the national scene. Scott Mathieson was fourth, and he did have a nice fastball, but at that point he had not shown an ERA under four in the minor leagues and hadn't cracked Double-A. Revisionist history aside, it was a prospect list with one rising star and some pieces, but not much depth.

What would the current Mets prospect list look like? Most likely, it would be topped by by young righty Jenrry Mejia, but he hasn't yet shown Hamels-esque upside. Wilmer Flores might be next, and he would probably out-rank Golson and Bourn if only by being an infielder. Fernando Martinez, if he's still a prospect, can play the part of the flawed young outfielder, or Kirk NIeuwenhuis, or Lucas Duda. There's a nice series on this in the FanPost section you can peruse yourself.

The verdict on this comparison might have the Mets' list out in front, at least in terms of depth. There's no Cole Hamels on the list, but it definitely goes deeper. Then again, the lack of superstar prospects is actually a flaw worth considering. Is there some part of the Mets' philosophy - perhaps the preference for college arms - that has not produced a top pitching prospect in recent years? You can love Mike Pelfrey, Jon Niese and Dillon Gee and still understand that none of them are as good as Cole Hamels, and in all likelihood won't ever be.

These teams aren't exact mirror images. In Cole Hamels and Ryan Howard, the Phillies were probably ahead in two key categories. Even with those two players' flaws, they're ahead of their 2010 Mets' counterparts, and there's little in the system that resembles those players. 

But the 2005 Phillies were a large-market team struggling to move from the middle of the pack to the front of the pack. They had some young pieces, some old pieces, and some holes. They had a new stadium, a new manager, and, by the end of the season, a new GM. That sounds a lot like the current Mets, and there must be something we can learn from this comparison.

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How are there no comments for this?

Anyway, I appreciate the post, and it’s a bit comforting, assuming we get the right GM. We need to remember that as bad as things are, the Mets did score more runs than they allowed last season. The team could be good if we got just an average 2nd baseman and a 5th pitcher. And there will be a lot of flexibility in 2012 and beyond.

by Brooklyn Tar Heels on Oct 8, 2010 3:29 PM EDT reply actions  

Agreed

My only guess is folks are a little burned out on talking about the Phillies.

The Mets current situation is not unsalvageable. They have some very good players, they have some promising youngsters (even if none of them appear destined for superstardom), and they’ve got some payroll coming off the books after next year. Yes, they probably don’t have a lot of flexibility this offseason, but a creative GM could find a way to make incremental improvements to fashion a competitive 2011 team without blowing everything up.

by Eric Simon on Oct 8, 2010 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

im really looking forward to the clearing of the books after next season

with a decent GM and that kind of money available, we could set ourselves up very nicely for a while.

Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?

by KeithsMoustache on Oct 8, 2010 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agree that this is a great job...

But based on the title and before reading it, I needed to get my chores done so I could have a drink in hand. I had no idea it would be so positive.

In other news, I was talking to a guy I know yesterday who is a Phillies-obsessed stats geek, and whose knowledge about the CBA and signing/arb matters is pretty impressive. He’s extremely worried about the Phils after this year (maybe after next year, as this year’s wave might continue for another season). For all of the homerism following the Halladay no-no, it was interesting to hear his thoughts. Made me pretty happy.

by MookieTheCat on Oct 8, 2010 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because it's kind of long, hockey is on TV, I'm going to Megadeth/Slayer tonight, and like Eric said, it's about the Philthies.

It will be read I’m sure.

Save Jenrry Mejia!
In lobby for Josh Byrnes/Chip Hale as Mets 2011 GM/Manager.

by Ogre39666 on Oct 8, 2010 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Megadeth/Slayer?

I know we all want it to be 1986 again, but wwhhhhhhaaaaa????

by MookieTheCat on Oct 8, 2010 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

they are playing tonight in scranton pa love slayer .

lohaus #54

by lohaus#54 on Oct 9, 2010 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Awesome.

Is Megadeth still playing the whole “Rust in Peace” record on this tour?

by Eric Simon on Oct 8, 2010 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah plus slayer is playing the whole seasons in the abyss cant fuckin wait the mullet lives on

lohaus #54

by lohaus#54 on Oct 9, 2010 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well,

I just read it now.
But agreed – appreciate the research that was done on this one.

by MetsFan4Decades on Oct 8, 2010 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

also

I think the second part will be the most enlightening. This is sort of the appetizer, setting the groundworks for actually looking at the moves the Phils made to get where they are.

by Eno Sarris on Oct 8, 2010 4:24 PM EDT reply actions   2 recs

yea

that’s why I didn’t comment. I read it, I liked it, but this post by itself doesn’t really demand much in the way of discussion or debate. That’s not a bad thing, just the way it is.

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Oct 9, 2010 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Good start

& I’m looking forward to part II. One minor quibble I have is that I wouldn’t really classify the Phillies as a “large-market team,” at least in comparison to the Mets.

The sun is up & Kim Ng should be Mets GM.

by Brian. on Oct 8, 2010 4:36 PM EDT reply actions  

but but but

the Phillies are the scrappy underdogs…

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Oct 9, 2010 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah but when you think about it

they had to go to back to back ws, and win one, and we had to have several collapses, one horrible season which caused revenue to plummet and our owners getting swindled out of millions for them to pass us for one season.

mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon (and Billy King-Paul G B)

by Gina on Oct 10, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

true in some ways.

the phillies stockpiled there prospects while over the years the mets traded them like the kazmir fiasco or the busts like generation next of wilson pulspher and izzy all though izzy found something as a closer .

lohaus #54

by lohaus#54 on Oct 9, 2010 1:00 PM EDT reply actions  

Please use punctuation

Your posts are too difficult to read

Sandy Alderson for Mets President | Rick Hahn for Mets GM
R.A. Dickey for Governor!

by Russ on Oct 10, 2010 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

This
A team with high expectations was derailed by injuries and inconsistency in the 2004 season.

I have constantly reminded people who tell me the Mets should blow up their core that once upon a time Rollins, Utley, and Howard were underachieving chokers too.

"Seriously, Lana, call Kenny Loggins ‘cause you’re in the danger zone."

by keithprime on Oct 10, 2010 3:35 AM EDT reply actions  

I think that, with good management, we'll be a contender in 2012.

By then Havens and Kap’m Kirk will have arrived (hopefully), and the Ollie, Castillo, and Beltran contracts will be gone.

Unfortunately, I am worried that the Mets are gonna interview a bunch of people for GM and then just go back and make Ricco the GM, and I’m not sure about him.

by Shevshevy on Oct 13, 2010 12:18 AM EDT reply actions  

mets-jason bay

nothing is ever said about jason bay-he is the 19th highest salary position player in baseball-was replaced at cleanup by rookie-clearly mets collected insurance on bay when he went on dl-bay killed the lineup- 6 home runs and 47 rbi in 2/3 season-look at the facts, dramatic loss of power after signing hugh contract, looked quicker on bases and field than anticipated, red sox, hurting for offense, never really tried to sign him after bay’s 1 1/2 excellent years replacing manny (talking about pressure), putting alot of medical conditions on any deal-all this after rugby player hgh test in the winter that had everybody in baseball concerned that hgh testing was on the way- unless he can go visit the good doctor in toronto, bay’s contract will prove to be the worst free-agent, position player, non-injured in mlb- and saddling the mets with an untradeable mess for 3 years that will prevent them from doing other things with that money

by lrh on Oct 16, 2010 7:07 AM EDT reply actions  

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