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Why I Don't Want The Mets To Hire Wally Backman

James engaged me on the subject of Wally Backman yesterday. I had expressed some public support for Backman in the past, while James had been notably opposed to the idea. As we taked, James became more impassioned and I became more critical, an escalation tactic useful in my debating days, but not always wise in sports blogging. The debate degenerated quickly. At first I thought the failed discussion was just another manifestation of our long-standing mutual hatred, but upon further reflection, I realized we were arguing totally different issues. I supported the idea of Wally Backman managing the Mets. James was against the Mets hiring Wally Backman. 

My interest in Backman is mostly a byproduct of long-standing Braves-envy. Growing up in Braves country in the nineties was a deeply psychologically scarring experience. My outward contempt for Bobby Cox belied a deep admiration. Cox informed my conception of an ideal manager: an advocate for his players, an intermediary between management, umpires, and the media. Willie Randolph, feuding with the Carloses behind closed door, and Jerry Manuel--that's poor, Ryan Church!--failed horribly to live up to this standard. It was blame-passing, symptomatic of an organization made afraid by their own failure. By contrast, all of Backman's former players gush about his rapport with the team.

James kept asserting, however, that Backman is only getting a shot because of his connection to the '86 Mets and that there are plenty of qualified candidates. I concede both of these points. As for the latter, discussing managerial qualification is rarely productive. Team records reflect team talent, firstly, and maybe a little managerial influence. No manager is going to take a 90-win team to 80 wins. Awards and records, for this reason, can be extremely misleading (see: Jerry Manuel, 2000, 95 wins, manager of the year). The difference between a good and bad manager remains strategic decision-making ability. And until someone invents highly sophisticated minor-league managerial statistics, my guess is as good as yours.

As for the '86 connection, it is a bit insulting, not just to the other candidates, but to actually good former-Mets. Carlos Beltran will probably never win a World Series with the Mets. Yet, Carlos has been an excellent, all-time great Met. The mysticism surrounding every player on a World Series team is the same dumb logic that buries great players on bad teams into obscurity. Wally Backman remains a managerial candidate because Jeff Wilpon believes this crap. 

And that's where most of the Wally-debate lies. Fans like Matt Cerrone believe Wally Backman's return is some romanticized redemption story. Redemption implies some incredible feat propelled him back into baseball following his immense personal problems. It didn't. Backman curried political favor with the only team he could. He played on a franchise's guilt and won some minor league games. That's not redemption; that's closer to cronyism.

So I like the idea of Wally Backman as the Mets manager fine, but I don't want Sandy Alderson to hire him. Wally Backman is just a political football, a sideshow lauded for his entertaining ejections. Alderson represents a break from years of petty nonsense, autonomy from Jeff Wilpon's questionable decisions, Backman being chief among them. Alderson represents a chance for the Mets to reclaim their pride. Wally Backman represents a bizarre inferiority complex, a worshipping of anything past and associated with winning.

And for what it's worth, I don't think Alderson will hire him. Many people have highlighted Alderson's comments about liking fiery managers and the intangible aspects of players as some absolute denial of Moneyball, or something. It was deft political speak, non sequiturs that no one would contest, but everyone would interpret as he or she wanted. Alderson never condemned fiery managers with his "middle-manager" comment in Moneyball. He was speaking out against the not-so-fiery Tony LaRussa's desire to heavily influence player personnel decisions. Alderson will hire a fiery manager, sure, as long as he respects the chain of command. And I will respect whoever he hires, Backman or otherwise, because I trust the front office's decisions making for the first time...ever.

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With only 30 MLB managerial jobs

We should be able to get everything – including media savvy, player advocate, inspirational, statistically advanced, etc. Since we dont have a clue as to how manager intangibles and leadership contribute to winning, if at all, I would love to see the next manager have a recent track record of winning, something that Backman has. If we can find that in another candidate, who would also be a less polarizing figure, that would be awesome.

Excellent - everybody knows that.

by Dandy Salderson on Nov 1, 2010 9:10 AM EDT reply actions  

Well said.

It’s about time we stop parading 1986 as concealer for these eras of organizational ineptitude. Hiring Backman would totally be going back to old bad habits.

by Jamesir Bensonmum on Nov 1, 2010 9:18 AM EDT reply actions  

Ding Ding Ding!

If Backman hadn’t joined the Mets until 1987, he’s not in the conversation. Let’s look elsewhere.

by Jack Str on Nov 2, 2010 1:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Why I don't want Backman as manager

I love Wally. I remember the ’86 season; in fact, the ’86 season is the point around which I associate various events of my childhood (that song came out just about the time the Mets won the WS). Over the years, those Mets have, to varying degrees, disappointed me the dynasty that never was, domestic assaults, cocaine busts, investor fraud you name it, and they have been involved in it – even Wally.

Through all of the scandal and heartbreak, I could still hold on to my memories of that magical season. Watching an ‘86 Met fail personally will never mar those memories. However, I don’t want to take a chance on watching an ‘86 Met fail at baseball. Maybe that wouldn’t harm those great old memories either, but I don’t want to take the chance.

This is not to say that I don’t want wally to have a shot. He’s earned it. I would prefer he got his shot as a non-Met. If he succeeded, I would feel proud; if he failed, at least it wouldn’t be in a Met uniform.

Is he too fiery? Is he too inclined to small ball? Is he the greatest motivator baseball has ever seen? None of us know the answer to these questions. What I do know is that in 1986, he formed a platoon with a nervous little guy and that platoon was part of the best baseball team that I have ever seen play, and that’s how I want to remember Wally.

by lstorie1971 on Nov 1, 2010 9:24 AM EDT reply actions  

trust

I can remember the day I lost the trust I once had for every player decision made by the Mets. It was the day Dykstra was traded for Samuel. I haven’t trusted the decision making of any Mets front office since. Hope, yes, but it was like hoping a half blind squirrel would find a nut: you know it’s possible, but you aren’t about to bet on it.

Oh, and Matt Cerrone is a nice guy. I always hope he can find a nut too.

Hiring Backman would be a bad idea and a bad decision making process all around. It would be the best, fastest way to suggest Alderson was not bringing a real change in the way the team does business, and suggest that Jeff Wilpon still can’t get past his daddy issues and has to push his finger in everything.

by AJ_in_VA on Nov 1, 2010 9:33 AM EDT reply actions  

what if Alderson interviews him with an open mind

and really thinks he’s the best man for the job?

I don’t want Backman, but I also wouldn’t flip out if we hired him. I trust Alderson until he proves he doesn’t deserve my trust, so whatever he decides, I’ll be ok with.

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Nov 1, 2010 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

the flaw I see in that

. . . is that in the NY media market, Alderson’s job is not just about righting the ship, but managing the press narrative. And no matter what, hiring Backman will be interpreted in precisely the way I’ve suggested, as evidence that Alderson may not be his own man after all, or with the idea that the man of fresh ideas felt, for whatever reason, like he had to sign off on an old one.

Fortunately, I think Alderson knows this, so that even if he believes, according to the process that you suggest, that Backman is a viable candidate, or even a short list candidate, hiring him brings too much risk and baggage for a new franchise start that needs to avoid getting off on the wrong foot. The press will be looking for any reason to suggest problems, because that sells paprers and gets people calling into WFAN to rant.

So, I don’t think Backman will be hired, even if he is a short list option, and I think that’s a very good thing. And I loved him as a player, and loved Johnson’s creativity in overlooking his bad glove rap and giving him a platoon job, first with Kelvin Chapman and then with Teufel. And yes, I’m old enough to remember.

by AJ_in_VA on Nov 1, 2010 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Excellent analysis,

and very sound on the pitfalls for Anderson of hiring Backman. There’s one thing I’ll add, and that is, there will be an ongoing, private power struggle between Alderson and the Wilpons. (Not a knock, particularly, against Fred and Jeff. It’s more that there’s always this kind of struggle going on in this kind of hierarchy.) If Alderson’s first significant decision is a “win” for Jeff, I think it puts Alderson at a not insignificant disadvantage in future battles falling within this larger struggle. Alderson needs to establish his independence not only for the sake of how things play in the media, but in order to win various battles to come.

by Jack Str on Nov 2, 2010 1:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

Dykstra/Samuel trade

I was 11 years old, and it broke my heart. Please dont bring it up again, it is very upsetting.

Excellent - everybody knows that.

by Dandy Salderson on Nov 1, 2010 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

Oh for crying out loud...

I was having a decent day until I read this. Worst trade ever. Not scientifically so, just so to my soul.

It's a triumph of number crunching over the human spirit...aaaaaand, it’s about time. -- Play-by-Play Announcer, The Simpsons.

by MookieTheCat on Nov 1, 2010 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

For my money, Seaver was the worst trade ever

The Mets uniform is the only one that he should have ever worn, and Game 7 of the 1986 World Series should have been the last time that he suited up.

The Mets GM is Sandy Alderson: A Dynasty is Born
R.A. Dickey for Governor!

by Russ on Nov 2, 2010 8:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

Nolan Ryan for Jim Fregosi?

"There’s talent in these here waters. Alderson just has to clear up the algae around the edges." - RJ Anderson / Fangraphs

by Dandy Salderson on Nov 2, 2010 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, but Fregosi wasn't totally pitiful,

and there were factors regarding Nolan that, for a lack of better words, forced us to trade him.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 2, 2010 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

You make good points, but I do like Wally

I hope they can keep him managing in the organization somewhere. I am thinking a good set of moves would be to promote Oberkfell to Flushing and Wally to Buffalo, particularly if the Leones de Escogido do well under Oberkfell’s management again this year.

by Nomenclaturist on Nov 1, 2010 9:40 AM EDT reply actions  

Don't know much about Oberkfell

But I’m really liking the idea of Chip Hale as manager.

by Evan_S on Nov 1, 2010 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm bothered by Chip Hale's connection to Jerry

I think anyone on Jerry’s coaching staff should basically be excluded from the job. Probably learned too many bad habits over the past few years.

by Nomenclaturist on Nov 1, 2010 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think being with Jerry just 1 year

exempts him from that charge, frankly. It’s not like Jerry being with Willie for several years so that’s just a continuation of the same field leadership since what, 2004?

Hale is really from outside that circle.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Nov 1, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

It was just this year though

And by all accounts the players really like him.

by metsman07 on Nov 1, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's horrible reasoning

Would you through out a gold bar just because it fell into some poop? Now Hale probably isn’t the managerial equivalent to a gold bar (maybe he is, I don’t know) but I don’t think you would.

Save Jenrry Mejia!
In lobby for Chip Hale as Mets 2011 Manager.

by Ogre39666 on Nov 1, 2010 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am pretty sure

Jerry had nothing to do with choosing Hale. They let Jerry pick Razor two years ago, but he was on borrowed time this year. The coaches who came in were picked by the FO.

by jdon on Nov 1, 2010 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow

talk about your Sisyphean tasks.

"I get up every morning determined to both change the world and have one hell of a good time. Sometimes this makes planning my day difficult." ~ E. B. White

by CTRefJay on Nov 1, 2010 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

If 1986 taught us anything

it’s that you don’t hire managers who played for your last championship team, you hire a player well known for losing that championship to you.

Bill Buckner for manager!

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Nov 1, 2010 9:44 AM EDT reply actions  

Marty Barrett

You have to go with the guy who made the last out.

by dcmetsfan on Nov 1, 2010 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah

Gotta stick with what works.

Thus Spoke Keith Hernandez

Let's never bunt again.

by Thomas Wachtel on Nov 1, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

cerrone jab!

yeah yeah yeah!

this guy was managing the freakin’ joliet jackhammers (an indy team in bumblef**k illinois) 2 years ago and now everyone wants him to manage the mets. lol.

drew

by lbeachdrew on Nov 1, 2010 9:54 AM EDT reply actions  

I don't care who the manager is

as long as a competent hitting coach is brought in

mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon (and Billy King-Paul G B)

by Gina on Nov 1, 2010 10:06 AM EDT reply actions  

I care

Not so much because of what I think the impact will be to the W-L will be, but more because I dont want to have to stare at some buffoon that I hate for the next however many years. After the fake budhist and the fake nice/calm guy before him, it would really be refreshing to get someone sincere in there.

Excellent - everybody knows that.

by Dandy Salderson on Nov 1, 2010 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah

The manager has a big effect on my aesthetic enjoyment of the game. I don’t want Wally because he seems to bunt constantly, and I truly hate the throw-a-shoe-at-my-TV feeling.

by Pack Bringley on Nov 1, 2010 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah I should say I don't care

as long as it’s not Jerry Manuel or Joe Torre.

mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon (and Billy King-Paul G B)

by Gina on Nov 1, 2010 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't mind Wally

Players that played for him before praise him. Especially Dan Uggla who said he would run thru a brick wall for him. Never really saw that kind of enthusiam from any met player in the past.

by TheKid08 on Nov 2, 2010 2:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

Howard Johnson and OBP

are fire and ice. He might not even know what it stands for. I am confident there will be a change.

by jdon on Nov 1, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

It isn't because Backman was on a winning team that he's talked about

It’s because of what he represented on a winning team that gives him that aura. Backman was completely emblematic of the team and that era. He was unafraid to play dirty. He did what it took to win, and played unselfishly. He “partied hard and played harder.” He wasn’t very skilled or very big. In essence, he was seen as their David Eckstein, a player who the others could draw inspiration from. But considering Backman no longer plays on the field, I don’t think this Ecksteinian characteristic translates as strongly to the dugout.

And in response to the 1986 complex: It’s not like Ed Hearn has this mystique about him for winning. A Backman hiring would demonstrate a sliver of hope on the Wilpon’s part that the Mets could return to those good ol’ days. No other member of the 1986 team could better channel that hope.

I don’t really care about the 1986 championship issue—I’m just concerned that Backman may not be fit for New York and might not even be smart enough. It was clear in Alderson’s press conference that he wants someone intelligent, and I not sure Wally fits that bill.

Trying to believe is my full-time occupation.

by Preach19 on Nov 1, 2010 11:10 AM EDT reply actions  

And I don't know if "Jeff Wilpon believes this crap"

As much as it is “Jeff Wilpon wants to appease the fans with a seemingly major hiring.”

Trying to believe is my full-time occupation.

by Preach19 on Nov 1, 2010 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Its not all about '86

The DBacks once offered Backman their managerial job – I dont think they gave a shite about the 1986 Mets.

"There’s talent in these here waters. Alderson just has to clear up the algae around the edges." - RJ Anderson / Fangraphs

by Dandy Salderson on Nov 1, 2010 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think that's it

The Wilpons might believe that they need something to generate off-season excitement to drive ticket sales. With no major free agent signings in the works, Wally might be seen as the marketing tool to put fannies in the seats.

The Mets GM is Sandy Alderson: A Dynasty is Born
R.A. Dickey for Governor!

by Russ on Nov 1, 2010 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

only if you believe that

the Wilpons will overrule Sandy… b/c there’s no way that Sandy would agree with the premise that managers sell tickets.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Nov 1, 2010 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Who is this supposed ticket buyer

That is basing their decision based on the team manager?

Pure fantasy.

"There’s talent in these here waters. Alderson just has to clear up the algae around the edges." - RJ Anderson / Fangraphs

by Dandy Salderson on Nov 1, 2010 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, anecdotally

It didn’t seem like Wally had any effect on attendance in Brooklyn, even if fans enjoyed his spectacle/presence once they were there. I don’t see the 2009 attendance numbers but the 2010 Cyclones averaged just a touch under what they averaged in 2008.

by Pack Bringley on Nov 1, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I found the 2009 number: 7,138

compared to 7,147 in 2010 (note that these aren’t sell-out numbers.) So even when fans could see him up-close-and-personal he translated to 9 extra fans a game.

by Pack Bringley on Nov 1, 2010 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't know

Ed Hearn gets talked about more than any backup catcher I can remember

by Sam Page on Nov 1, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not because of a mystique or aura

Or any kind of defining status as a winner. He isn’t talked about in terms of his contribution to that team, only that he was a body on the roster.

Again, I’m not sure it’s an inferiority complex as much as it is the team looking to appease their miserable, discontented fans. After all, recent hirings outside of the organization (Art Howe and Willie Randolph) haven’t ended well. Nonetheless, I also trust in any outside-the-organization managerial decision by Sandy (right now at least).

Trying to believe is my full-time occupation.

by Preach19 on Nov 1, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

David. Cone.

"There’s talent in these here waters. Alderson just has to clear up the algae around the edges." - RJ Anderson / Fangraphs

by Dandy Salderson on Nov 1, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Two words....

Boxing gloves.

It's a triumph of number crunching over the human spirit...aaaaaand, it’s about time. -- Play-by-Play Announcer, The Simpsons.

by MookieTheCat on Nov 1, 2010 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ray Fosse?

He was a little bit more than a back-up catcher, but…

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 2, 2010 12:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah, you cannot go merely by

how the guy played the game…. some of us tried to apply that to Willie so we know that’s a false positive…

whatever on thinks about Wally, there are really two strikes against him (significant ones to me)… one is strategically he seems to place far too much reliance on playing for one run at a time with his excessive sac bunting… Personally Jerry sac bunted far too much for me and Wally seems to be firmly entrenched in that old school approach… and it’s going to be tough to sell Sandy on that as well…

and secondly, Wally doesn’t know the league… aside from 3 months of short season A ball this past year, he was out of affiliated ball since 2004! I don’t want a guy coming in who knowledge of the players in the league is that limited… to me, that’s a huge knock on him.

The other knock is that he’s shown a tendency to put his foot in his mouth already in just the limited time he’s been back in NY…. being comfortable and glib with the media is another important attribute and I’m not sure he’s going to grade out highly there…

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Nov 1, 2010 11:19 AM EDT reply actions  

Earl Weaver once said. . .

“You can take the sac bunt and shove it up somebody’s ass.”

Davey Johnson came from that school, the three run homerun school, and it suited me just fine. Johnson liked to bunt for a base hit on more than other managers did, or pull the defense in with a fake to create holes, and Backman as a player did that very well, slapping a ball through a drawn in infield. Johnson also loved to have Orosco fake a bunt and slap the ball on rare occasions when Orosco had to hit.

Alderson is more of a home run and OBP guy, from what I can gather, and that’s actually a better way to build an offense, so to the extent that Backman’s a bunt lover as a manager, I’m guessing Alderson won’t be all that impressed.

by AJ_in_VA on Nov 1, 2010 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

And Davey

“didn’t know the league.” He went on the same path as Wally (minor league manager, managed in indy leagues, was never a coach in the majors). So that shouldn’t be a deterrent either. That said, i’m still on the fence re Wally.

What's the score, boys?
What did Bugs Bunny do?
What's with the Carrot League baseball today?

by StorkFan on Nov 1, 2010 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

pretty sure Davey managed in the Mets system for several yrs.

either way, there are exceptions to everything. iow, it’s still not advantageous to have a guy come in who doesn’t know the league even if Davey didn’t…

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Nov 1, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

agree that

Johnson didn’t know the league, I don’t think that’s an issue in the Wally discussion either.

Interestingly, though, not many people remember that Johnson was tagged as a stat head in his day. When he was hired to the big show, there were lots of articles about him and his little spreadsheets and how he used “computers” to help him make decisions. (“OMG computers!!!”)

Now, I think we can all agree that, by today’s standards, Johnson is no quant geek. By by the standards of 1984, after George “throw 120 pitches every 4 days” Bamberger, Johnson was on the numbers side of the argument. That’s why he took guys like Backman who could get on base (at least against righties) over “strong up the middle” glove men like Brian Giles (the bad one) and Doug Flynn.

I don’t think anyone is saying that Backman knows his way around a spreadsheet.

by AJ_in_VA on Nov 1, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

No I think we're in agreement here AJ

But there are many ways to get the experience needed to be successful. That was the point I was trying to make, aapparently not well.

What's the score, boys?
What did Bugs Bunny do?
What's with the Carrot League baseball today?

by StorkFan on Nov 1, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

no you did fine

I went off on a tangent.

Yes, we agree.

by AJ_in_VA on Nov 1, 2010 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

there's a pretty big difference

between managing just 3 months of low A ball and managing a few seasons in the upper minors where you’d likely have seen a lot of MLers pass thru… not to mention that you would know a bunch of the current Mets if you were in the system for a while…

I’d prefer that a manager came either from a ML coaching staff and thus knows the league or managing from within our own system for a few years. WB has neither going for him… that’s why I said his best path is to remain within the system for a couple more seasons and be a top candidate for the next time the spot becomes available.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Nov 1, 2010 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Assuming Oberkfell or Teufel

get offered jobs on the ML staff, Wally’s best path is being offered the skipper job in either Bingo or Buffalo…

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Nov 1, 2010 11:21 AM EDT reply actions  

You were a policy debater, Sam?

Figures. We would no doubt recognize each other by our pen twirls.

by Pack Bringley on Nov 1, 2010 11:25 AM EDT reply actions  

One of my greatest achievements in life

is getting my high school to name its tournament’s first speaker award after my late, great brother.

by Pack Bringley on Nov 1, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks.

My bro had just gotten his math phd when cancer got him, and all of my interest in sabermetrics is a pretty pitiful attempt to catch up with my big bro. (Though the White Sox and Duke basketball would have consumed him far more than the Mets.)

by Pack Bringley on Nov 1, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't particularly like his in-game management.

That he was an ’86 Met, I could give two craps about. Personally, the only time I want to see former players who just have jobs on the team because they are former players is either in the booth, or as base coaches.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 1, 2010 12:58 PM EDT reply actions  

I'm not disagreeing

but what do we know about his in-game management? Have you seen games that he managed? Give us a scouting report.

by lstorie1971 on Nov 1, 2010 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

I only saw about 8 and listened to several more

but he likes bunting (for singles and sac) and speed; this much seems pretty clear. He often went to the sac bunt in the early innings and didn’t particularly care if it was a pretty good batter or if the opposing pitcher looked wobbly. I wrote about once in the bottom of the 6th when, in a tie game, he asked his 5 hitter to bunt for a single, his 6 hitter to sac him over, and his 8 hitter to execute the squeeze play. This seems pretty typical of his approach. I also watched one interview where every good word he said about Ceciliani had to do with his developing bunt single skills; that’s fine, but dude could also “hit” for singles and doubles at will. Then again he could have been just “teaching the kids” to some extent.

by Pack Bringley on Nov 1, 2010 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Backman generally believes this is the best way to run an offense,

he shouldn’t be allowed near the major league club. I have to think Alderson has his ‘prospective manager interview questions’ down pat enough to be able to figure that out.

My guess is that Alderson will almost surely not pick someone to manage the Mets who has no major league managerial experience. Until his first huge FA pickup, or a decision to part ways with Reyes, his selection of a manager will remain his signature decision. I don’t think he’s going to bet his credibility on a novice. At the same time, he won’t go with a name, since a “star” manager, unless it’s someone who Alderson already trusts implicitly, could cause Alderson enormous problems if that manager took it into his head to go his own way. So, it will be someone with limited, but definitely, ML experience, who had a strong but not lengthy record, and who got fired for reasons beyond his control.

Damned if I know who fits that bill.

by Jack Str on Nov 2, 2010 2:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

As far as what he looks to statistically to back up his in-game decisions

he’s gone on record as saying that he uses BA splits. So not only is he using a flawed stat (OBP or SLG would be much better) but he’s using it in a necessarily SSS. And he called himself a “stat-rat” so he actually thinks he’s got it figured out.

Save Jenrry Mejia!
In lobby for Chip Hale as Mets 2011 Manager.

by Ogre39666 on Nov 1, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's often the worst of it:

Someone who has no idea what it is they don’t know. I have a buddy like that, an otherwise great guy, but he’s absolutely convinced that what he knows is true, even when it’s absurd, such as, the US has a population of 600,000,000, and if gold reaches $1500 an ounce the US economy will resemble the Wiemar Republic’s. He just doesn’t know what those things are that he’s ignorant of. If Backman really is that dumb, I don’t doubt Alderson will realize that in their interview very quickly. If Backman really can be involved in baseball all his life and think that BA splits, particularly BA splits for that particular matchup, are more than very slightly meaningful, and if he has no idea that BA is a weak stat, then it won’t be just that part of the game that he’s failing to understand—he’ll need a complete education in all facets of statistical analyses of baseball, and I sure as hell don’t want to bet, a) that he can do it at all, and b) that he can accomplish that in one offseason after a lifetime of either not being smart enough or interested enough to do it.

Bill James once said, being able to be one of the top players in any Strat league is by no means the sole criterion for the job of major league baseball manager, but you’d think it would have to be an indispensable part of the job description.

by Jack Str on Nov 2, 2010 2:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

That's from the Newsday article by the way if anyone wants my source.

Just search AA for Newsayd and Backman and you should find my FanPost about it.

Save Jenrry Mejia!
In lobby for Chip Hale as Mets 2011 Manager.

by Ogre39666 on Nov 2, 2010 2:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

I really think that Wally is a good choice under one condition

That he renounces smallball.

If he’s willing to embrace the Earl Weaver’s “pitching, defense, and three-run homers” philosophy, then I really don’t see much downside to hiring him.

If he’s still in love with bunting, then the Mets need to look to someone else.

The Mets GM is Sandy Alderson: A Dynasty is Born
R.A. Dickey for Governor!

by Russ on Nov 1, 2010 1:11 PM EDT reply actions  

I really think your policy is more about the GM

Pitching, defense and three-run homers are not inconsistent with trying to manufacture runs through small-ball tactics, as long as you don’t have your power hitters bunting.

But you need to have good pitchers, defenders and power hitters, and getting them is the GM’s job, not the manager’s.

by Nomenclaturist on Nov 1, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

See this is where Alderson's "middle management" take on the position comes into play.

The manager has to be an extension of the FO. He can’t be doing his own thing. The team is going to be built with a certain philosophy in mind and having a manager who implements another would just cause problems.

Save Jenrry Mejia!
In lobby for Chip Hale as Mets 2011 Manager.

by Ogre39666 on Nov 1, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

But what about the

“rogue cop” who enrages his bosses, but somehow manages to Get The Job Done? McNulty (Naulty?) for manager.

by tmu on Nov 1, 2010 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Unfortunatley, I didn't get to any Cyclones games this year, because of work

From the first-hand accounts of others who I know who went to games, and from reading about his exploits in Brooklyn here, I think that he hit-and-run too much, bunted in a lot more situations than he really needed to, and went out to argue in a lot more situations than he needed to. I think he only got ejected like twice, which is surprising, given that he probably came out and got into heated arguments with umpires at least triple, quadruple that number. On that, sometimes I think he argued for the sake of arguing, getting people empassioned, whatever, and I, personally, don’t think that’s too good of a strategy. I think he overworked/micromanaged the bullpen, but since that worked out, I really can’t fault him for that. If it didn’t, though, definitley.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 1, 2010 1:15 PM EDT reply actions  

Blech, reply fail

lstorie1971

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 1, 2010 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

You are insenstive

and just don’t understand how I bring my next level shit so damn hard with sarcasm.

OK. I’ll stop.

by tmu on Nov 1, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

I didn't see him argue much in the games I was at

and the one time I saw him ejected the ump was clearly wrong about a HR that was foul by like 20 feet. (The ump may have been confused about the foul pole, or something.)

by Pack Bringley on Nov 1, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

A HR at whatever the hell the renamed the place that used to be Keyspan Park?

Whoa.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone hit a home run out of there, in the 10+/- years I’ve been going to games (between 1-10 games a season or so).

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 1, 2010 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I saw

both of Darrell’s (strangely and awesomely) and at least one of Vaughn’s this year. But yeah, biggest in the NYPL and the ocean breeze knocks em down.

by Pack Bringley on Nov 2, 2010 8:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

for anyone on the Wally Express,

has he even been interviewed by any other team for any of the several openings there’ve been thus far?? It isn’t like teams are banging his door down… not that being in demand necessarily means a guy would make a great manager, but if he’s as great as some think he is then he would have gotten some consideration elsewhere… he isn’t for several reasons… probably biggest is that he’s been out of affiliated ball for a while till 2010… if he keeps at it a while longer (managing in the minors), he should start to get noticed in the next couple of years…

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Nov 1, 2010 1:25 PM EDT reply actions  

WELL

he was hired to manage the D-backs for about 12 hours back in the way-way, was he not?

I’m all for losing the ’86 worship, though. We can love that team and its players without pretending that the only route back to greatness is with a team that plays similarly and with Keith as hitting coach, Ron as pitching coach, Wally as manager, Darryl as team chaplain, The Kid manning the curling irons, Lenny Dykstra advising on retirement strategies, blah, blah, blah.

I don’t think Alderson was bullshitting about the “fire”, however. I think he figures that as long as the guy is a competent decision maker/ tactician (which he obviously feels is relatively straightforward,) it’s better to have a guy that earns respect and keeps the players happy, interested, and on board with the program, be it playing time adjustments, swing adjustments, etc. . . . and keeps the fans happy and interested. All things equal, I think you want a “players’ manager,” and that often includes arguing. Now the Piniella-esque arse-whooping is something else entirely. I’m not sure why a disciplinarian/howler is the right move.

by tmu on Nov 1, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

comment fail

“true dat” was meant as a reply to this ^

by AJ_in_VA on Nov 1, 2010 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think he's bullshitting either

but I don’t think he ever had any reason to be against “fire” in the first place.

by Sam Page on Nov 1, 2010 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

he has no need to BS

fire can be a positive in the right candidate… I suspect the guy would still have to have substance… I think the issue is that we aren’t looking for a show from the manager just for the sake of putting on a show… thus “fire” is but one of many attributes SA’d be looking for…

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Nov 1, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, actually we do want a show just for the sake of a show, in his thinking

He specifically said that part of the manager’s role was as a representative of fan feeling in the game. I forget how he phrased it, but his point was that a manager arguing about a blown call can exorcise the frustration the fans are feeling. He mentioned a past manager who wouldn’t argue because he felt an ump’s mind was never changed – that manager was missing the point.

This is in keeping with what seems to be his overarching view of baseball as an entertainment business. (Which a fine managerial philosophy – it is entertainment, and the way to make it the best possible entertainment is to build a winning team.)

by SuperT on Nov 1, 2010 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

that would seem to be a direct

contradiction to managers he’s hired in the past… that is, if he is truly for as much managers barking at umps as is entertainingly possible…

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Nov 1, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thinking evolves

And he was relating a disagreement he’d had with one of his previous hires.

by SuperT on Nov 1, 2010 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

there's no collective "we"

in your post above. Alderson was merely being political in his remarks last Friday… that’s kinda obvious, ain’t it?

Saying he’s not against a fiery manager isn’t the same as saying he is going to hire a fiery manager.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Nov 1, 2010 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hmm, I'm a little confused about exactly what you're saying.

I’m saying “we,” the mets, apparently have that as one criterion, Sandy says, and I don’t think he was just being political. He wasn’t sort of obligatorily praising Backman (though I do agree that he probably put Backman on his list at least in part because he perceived that it would be pleasing to the Wilpons and to the fanbase. I just don’t think what’s been said about Backman’s managing fits what he’ll want in a manager). He was discoursing about the job of a manager, and making the point that a manager plays a role in the theater, if you will, of the game. He believes that that is a somewhat important element of the job, if nowhere near as important as other aspects of managing. (He didn’t articulate that last clause, I’m just extrapolating.)

by SuperT on Nov 1, 2010 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hate fire

we should give it back to the gods and eat everything cold. Every morning would involve an orange juice pop. . . .

HANY-HWAY, nor did he have a reason to be for fire unless he thinks that, on the margins, it’s better to have a dirt-kicker than an arthowe. Not EVERY budding sabremetrician would have a problem with that, but there are plenty that would think that the notion that a manager’s demeanor can affect a team’s performance either way is daft.

by tmu on Nov 1, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

well it's also possible

that’s its differing definitions of fire. He specifically mentioned a manager willing to argue with umps vs one who thought it was purposeless, it’s possible that’s the extent of his definition of fire and not the entire rah rah idea. Just that he wants someone who will stand up for his players on the field and the media (and not throw them under a bus a la Jerry), rather than a guy known for being an in your face excitable type.

mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon (and Billy King-Paul G B)

by Gina on Nov 1, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's true enough

I think someone tthat the players respect and whom they perceive as being on their side. That’s how I interpreted it.

by tmu on Nov 1, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I that case yeah

that is a core part of a managers job.

Save Jenrry Mejia!
In lobby for Chip Hale as Mets 2011 Manager.

by Ogre39666 on Nov 1, 2010 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jerry begs to differ

mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon (and Billy King-Paul G B)

by Gina on Nov 1, 2010 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think

all it means is that “fire” in the broad managerial sense isn’t something that would disqualify someone in and of itself… I think we all agree that “fire” probably comes a bit down the list for Sandy… and that if he otherwise likes a guy, being a little fiery won’t prevent him from getting the gig.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Nov 1, 2010 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Poor Diego needs to find a hobby

Maybe they should just let him coach Boca Jrs for the rest of his life. He can’t make too big of a fool of himself there. Plus, no one cares about the Argentine league anyways.

by Coolpapabell on Nov 1, 2010 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

You know, I was reading a book today, and

I really don’t care who’s manager at this point. I just want Pedro as the pitching coach.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 1, 2010 11:33 PM EDT reply actions  

I don't remember the title, I left it at work

A generic “These authors favorite baseball players”-type deals. But, one guy chose Pedro, and among highlighting how great of a pitcher he is/was, there was a bunch of his antics on/off the field. It reminded me that, even though I wasn’t too happy with his performance as a Met for most of the time he was here, he is just such an awesome guy, and I manlove him.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 2, 2010 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

There's the rub.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 2, 2010 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

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