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Not Selling Jeans or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Walk

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Whenever a Mets fan used to evoke Moneyball, it was to disparage sabermetrics. Someone would cite a statistic, someone else would say, "Moneyball ideas like that just lead to a team of fat base-cloggers! OBP is stupid!" And the former fan would dutifully retort, "You don't know anything! Moneyball was a book about market inefficiencies. Unless Sandy Alderson comes out of retirement to run the Mets, OBP is besides the point!" 

"This new SABR front office is going to turn the Mets into a bunch of stat-compiling OBP-players, who are too fat to cover Citi Field!"

"You don't know anything! Moneyball was a book about market inefficiencies. Unless--shit."

An interesting byproduct of the Alderson hiring has been a refocusing on old philosophies seemingly out of style. At his introductory press conference, confronted with a predictable line of Moneyball questions, Alderson defended his old Earl Weaver strategies. Basically, the out is the most precious capital, hitters should foremost demonstrate power and patience, and if I made it work in Oakland's Coliseum, I can damn well do it here. 

Really, much of Moneyball is about the importance of OBP, not just the movement associated with it. And in my vehement defense of the book's bigger message, I lost sight of that fact. It seems many sabermetrically-inclined fans still favor Adam Dunn-types, but only nostalgically, while believing the Nyjer Morgans of the world to be of near equal importance. 

This supposed "New Moneyball" did not replace the "Old Moneyball." Eschewing fielding for hulking on-base machines wasn't just the market inefficiency of the day. It's an organizational philosophy based on careful consideration of the alternatives, a likely directive for Sandy Alderson's Mets. 

Fans of sabermetrics are rightly eager to advance their field, but in their eagerness may have accepted some rudimentary steps as gospel, or at least, something worth building a team around. Fangraphs WAR is the ultimate number for the sabermetrically-inclined, an absolute measure of a player's offensive and defensive contributions combined. WAR, however, inherently treats one season of UZR, or an equivalent, as equal to one year of hitting contributions, which is fallacious. 

When I said I've become cynical about fielding stats, I didn't mean I'd stared at someone's UZR and said "hmm...that's too low." I've just become more realistic about their meaning. About up until James coined #6org, I accepted fielding stats on face. I've changed my mind.

My intention here is not to disparage UZR, which is still the best public fielding stat, bar none. Hopefully, if anything, I'll give skeptics ground to accept its use. I just don't think it's a "coincidence" or "bad luck" that the A's and Mariners are so bad. There are too many factors hedging against the believed importance of fielding. 

Star-divide

The 5% Idea

The ideas championed by Billy Beane and Paul DePodesta in Michael Lewis' book stemmed from the original Alderson front office in Oakland:

The first, short answer, according to a pamphlet commissioned by Alderson, was to spend it on hitters. The pamphlet was written by a former aero-space engineer turned baseball writer, Eric Walker. Fielding, Walker wrote, was "at most five percent of the game." The rest was pitching and offense, and while "good pitchers are usually valued properly, good batters often are not. (pp. 58)

Upon Alderson's hiring, Adam Rubin astutely called up Walker, who remained steadfast in his ideas:

You don't even have to get terribly detailed. You can see right away that offense and defense, meaning runs scored and runs allowed, have equal weight in winning ballgames. Everybody understands that. That being so, defense being partly pitching and partly fielding, it's immediately obvious that fielding is worth less than offense. It's a part of defense. If you figured that fielding is half of defense, which is wildly exaggerating it because pitching is such a big part of it, that still makes offense twice as important as fielding. That doesn't mean fielding is unimportant. But, all things considered, when you have your choices, you prefer the guy with ash rather than the guy with leather. The extent to which Sandy still believes that, I would say probably still a fair bit, but it's been so many years since I've talked to him.

The influence of pitchers on fielding is subsumed in stats like UZR in a variety of ways, such as batted-ball types and ball location, but is still largely outside the reach of public sabermetrics. Every fan knows not every groundball and not every line drive or ground ball is equal.

The Difference A Few Plays Make

Year Inn. BIZ Plays OOZ UZR
2009 1272 339 270 40 -2.8
2010 1067 335 276 36 9.8

 

Above are Orlando Hudson's fielding statistics with the Dodgers in 2009 and Twins in 2010. Hudson's a guy with a wide range of single-season UZRs (+15.9 to 2004, -10 in 2008). He's also got a reputation of being one of the game's best defenders, a consensus often challenged by some, citing said stats. 

The chart shows "balls in zone," i.e. balls that entered a portion of the field designated as his responsibility by Baseball Info Solutions, and the number of "plays," or balls in that zone Hudson played for outs. Orlando made 10 fewer plays in 2009 than 2010 in a very similar number of opportunities. He was also on pace to make about 3 more plays outside of his zone (OOZ). So in total, he made somewhere between 10-15 fewer plays in 2009. 

According to UZR, those 13 plays corresponded to about 13 fielding runs of value. In hitting terms, that's the difference between a .340 and .320 wOBA, or an .800 and .730 OPS. That's 70 points of OPS...in 13 groundballs rolling under O-Dawg's glove, up the middle. That's the difference between Jose Guillen and Justin Upton's bat in the time it took Matt Kemp to casually flip 10 balls back into the infield. Just intuitively, 13 missed groundballs is not as important as a .730 OPS hitter adding 8 homers or 30 walks to his game. No way. 

There are other inputs in UZR, but none that would explain such a marked disparity, in my mind. The 2009 Dodgers' and 2010 Twins' rotations had similar batted-ball profiles. The Dodgers had one more lefty. Between the two years, however, the real difference was Hudson. He went from converting 79.7% to 82.4% of balls in his zone into outs, which as shown, isn't a big difference. Compared to other second baseman, though, that's huge. The best second baseman last season in the AL was Mark Ellis at 85.9%, the worst, Gordon Beckham at 78.7%. 

Thirteen extra groundballs took Hudson from the basement to solidly above average. Unlike in hitting, the difference between a good and poor second basemen isn't that much, and over the course of a season, barely noticeable. I think this is why they say it takes three years of fielding data to have a sample size equivalent to one year of hitting data. 

Blissful Ignorance

Klapisch: Rough night, eh, Ike? You were 0-4 in balls in your zone.

Davis: Four balls in my zone?!? I'll show you Edina right here!

The final mitigating factor to the importance of defense is how little both we, the fans, but more importantly, the players, know about it. When a player is batting .200, he knows it. Everyone knows it. It's on the scoreboard, he gets asked about it after the game. If a player is fielding poorly, does he even know? Does he have any idea his UZR is -10, if he's got 2 errors and 20 homers? To quote a wise man: if it's so important, why don't they show it on the scoreboard?

The ultimate litmus test is Derek Jeter. Through his entire career, Jeter was terrible, while being told he was great. He posted all-time low UZRs at shortstop, but won multiple Gold Gloves. Jeter thought he was a great fielder. Then, after the 2008 season, Brian Cashman famously told Jeter what UZR and the like thought about his defense. The next year, at age 35, he posted a +6.4 UZR, by far the best of his career. The more aware players are of their deficiencies, the more likely they are to work on them. 

The Mets' Future

At the extremes, having a plus defender can be very useful. In Citi Field's expansive outfield, Angel Pagan's defense is hugely important. This fetishization of defense, however, that would put two centerfielders on either side of him who are supposedly +30 corner outfielders, is absurd. I'd put Adam Dunn and Andre Ethier on either side of Pagan and count on a combination of Pagan's range, a little luck in small sample sizes, and good positioning to mitigate against their defense on 400 flyballs, while reaping 1,200 productive at bats. You can put Nyjer Morgan and Coco Crisp out there and pray for BABIP; we'll see who wins. 

Granted, there are shades of grey between Morgan and Dunn. And granted, Morgan and Crisp are a lot cheaper than Ethier and Dunn, and for the A's, that's the point. That's a gamble they have to take. From my very Mets-oriented perspective, though, money is not the issue. So go with the proven formula. Value defense, but don't say no to Prince Fielder because he's not a good defensive first baseman. That's only 5% of what we're trying to do here. 

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Comments

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maybe they should sell some jeans

lot of money in the dungarees market from what i hear.

HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.

by kendynamo on Nov 10, 2010 10:17 AM EST reply actions  

Replace the black unis

with faux-denim. Blow Paul Lukas’ mind.

by tmu on Nov 10, 2010 10:34 AM EST up reply actions  

worked for the US Olympic snowboarding team right?

make em overalls and dominate

HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.

by kendynamo on Nov 10, 2010 10:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Sorta worked for the '94 US World Cup team

Except for my throwing up at the sight of them.

by tmu on Nov 10, 2010 11:04 AM EST up reply actions  

Hear hear

Sam, I’ve never agreed with you more than I do right now. Kudos for saying it much more eloquently than I’ve been able to.

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Nov 10, 2010 10:21 AM EST reply actions  

Yup

Great piece of writing. And I love that #6org meme. It doesn’t get tired for me.

by wobatus on Nov 10, 2010 3:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, why is it either a team of Gary Pettis. . es or

a team of Bob Hamhock Hamelins? I would say that traditional notions of defense up the middle being nonnegotiable, and offense at the corners being nonnegotiable, actually strike a reasonably good balance. That’s the way the system has evolved for a reason. Translation: finding and exploiting inefficiencies after 100+ years of baseball can be hard (especially when you’re talking in the abstract, and not about $/win, e.g., what;‘s the most wins I can get for $50MM?) You don’t find an OBP vs. BA every day.

by tmu on Nov 10, 2010 10:28 AM EST reply actions  

Never really thought about it this way, but you make a good point.

One thing I don’t buy though is the 5% thing. How can fielding be only 5% when, using the Mets as an example, had 6114 plate appearances on offense and 2303 balls in zone on defense. Fielding by itself may not be as importing as offense, but it’s more than 5% of the game.

by Evan_S on Nov 10, 2010 10:29 AM EST reply actions  

think about the variance from best to worst, not the raw number of opportunities

The relevant comparison, if you want to look at things this way, is the number of balls that the good fielders get to that bad fielders don’t vs. the number of PAs that good hitters turn into good outcomes that bad hitters don’t. I don’t know the research on this (and I’d love to see some) but my knee-jerk guess is that the latter number is indeed much bigger than the former.

by anonymous on Nov 10, 2010 10:53 AM EST up reply actions  

The 5%: just tossing around some numbers, tell me what you think about it

Suppose the following averages, playing in an average run environment and with an average defense and average pitchers:
K% = 17.6%
BB% = 8.7%
IFF% = 7.3%
HR% = 3.4% (just to round up lol)
BABIP = .330
Offense importance (50%) = Pitching + defense

I’m considering IFF (pop ups) a “4th true outcome”, since 98.5% of the times it is converted into an out. That would make 63% of balls put in play.

Here is the part things get a bit tricky, there might be some misinterpretation on my part. Suppose out of the 63% in play, 1/3 would fall for hits (.330 BABIP), and 2/3 would be made outs by an average defense.

The whole defense would have the abstract impact on roughly 63% of the plays, but it’s impossible to have a zero BABIP-against. In practical terms, an average defense could make an impact on a fraction of the 1/3 of the balls in play (better than average converting part of those into outs). (1)

The overall importance of defense (over/under average) would be 50%63%33%* (BABIP reduction), or 10,4%* (BABIP reduction), or double of the initial 5%. (50% of the game is run prevention, 63% of balls are put in play and 33% of balls in play are hits).
Though that 10.4% of the game could translate to +40 runs. (2)
Still it’s easier to get a +10 bat than a +10 glove. One of the reasons is that the spread in individual and total offense is higher than the spread in individual and total defense.

(1)The 1/3 that would fall for hits is a simplification, as in hits that would turn into outs. Defense could also reduce the total bases allowed, for example, limiting what would be a triple into a double.
(2)Oakland had the best defense (+38.9 UZR) this year and their starters had a .275 BABIP (16.7% lower than the .330 average).

by Michkin on Nov 10, 2010 12:49 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Adam Dunn in LF? Really?

Well, we do have Duda.

As far as RF goes, I think that it is important for the Mets to have a rightfielder with good range, due to the large area that needs to be covered in Citi Field.

"Out of chaos comes order" - Nietzsche
"Oh, blow it out your a__" - Olson Johnson

by Russ on Nov 10, 2010 10:31 AM EST reply actions  

I just wish the Mets had taken my advice

and signed both Dunn and Eckstein a couple years back when both were availzable. I can see them joining up and becoming some sort of Mad Max III Master Blaster-esque, gritty walk machine with power and spit. (MSPaint? Pleeze??)

by tmu on Nov 10, 2010 10:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Duda isn't a quarter of the hitter Dunn is

so, wrong. Sam’s not saying “put a crappy fielder out there because fielding isn’t important.” He’s saying “fielding isn’t nearly as important as hitting, so in the fielding/hitting matrix, a guy who can hit a ton makes up for not being a good fielder way more than a guy who’s a great fielder makes up for not being a good hitter.”

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Nov 10, 2010 10:34 AM EST up reply actions  

Ergo Pujols at second.

Get it done Omar!! Or whoever!

by tmu on Nov 10, 2010 10:36 AM EST up reply actions  

He'd still hit enough to make up for it

And had he been in there from the start, and conditioned himself to be the best center fielder he could be, I’m sure he’d have worth it there.

by Evan_S on Nov 10, 2010 10:44 AM EST up reply actions  

That's a different issue

You’re saying he’s a great athlete. The point is, he didn’t start out there.

I think you also see some “snowball” effects from bad defense, and let’s remember that if an outfielder doesn’t get to a ball in center, it’s usually not just a single.

by tmu on Nov 10, 2010 11:06 AM EST up reply actions  

I think he started out at short in the minors

And just for the hell of it, if you took Pujols this year in center, he had 57.6 batting runs, 23.3 replacement runs and lets estimate his positional adjustment to 2.2 (up from -11.8 at first) you have a 83.1 RAR player. Let’s say he’s abysmal in center (Matt Kemp was -24) and deduct 25 runs from his total, you have 58.1 RAR player, good for 5.8 WAR which would be the 3rd best center fielder in baseball.

by Evan_S on Nov 10, 2010 11:18 AM EST up reply actions  

He would be worse than Matt Kemp, anyway.

And it would probably affect his hitting, and his pitchers would be pissed, and everything he couldn’t get to would be a triple, and opposing teams would adjust strategies to exploit it. (Slight hyperbole, here.) Shit. Show.

by tmu on Nov 10, 2010 11:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Pujols was at 3B in the minors

I guess that they moved him to 1B because of Scott Rolen.

"Out of chaos comes order" - Nietzsche
"Oh, blow it out your a__" - Olson Johnson

by Russ on Nov 10, 2010 11:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Another important point

is how much the players cost, of course. Remember that the “Moneyball” approach is about seeing which players are undervalued by the market. (Fair?) Let’s say your chocie is b/w Pujols and Rolen, hypothetically. If you stick Pujols at third, are you really going to get a first baseman sufficiently better than Scott Rolen at the plate (or better than Pujols as a fielder) to make up for what you lose defensively? The spreads get bigger and harder to calculate when you start talking about moving Pujols to, say, second.

by tmu on Nov 10, 2010 11:43 AM EST up reply actions  

well yeah

But say you already have Prince Fielder on your team at first base, and some random, average center fielder. I’d absolutely put Pujols in center, since in that case we’d be massively upgrading our offense.

John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.

by squid92 on Nov 10, 2010 4:21 PM EST up reply actions  

yea...

I think that’s when you trade Prince Fielder or ratify the DH rule

by Sam Page on Nov 10, 2010 5:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Yup

Actually, I’m only posting because my extra “that” annoys me. It’s like a mosquito bite.

by tmu on Nov 10, 2010 5:04 PM EST up reply actions  

In a nutshell

you said it. The way the game is structured everything is related to salaries, and to where a player is in relation to arbitration and free agency. If I was a GM with a seven year contract building a team from scratch, had a $110m payroll beginning in 2010, with increases for salary inflation to be added, I would not want Joe Mauer, MVP, on my team. Well, I’d want him on my team, but I’d choose not to have him on my team.

by Jack Str on Nov 10, 2010 8:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Don't bet on Duda being inferior to Dunn

Dunn put up a decent 0.379 wOBA this season. If Duda can translate his 2010 AA 0.410 wOBA or AAA 0.424 wOBA to the major league level, then it will be “Adam Dunn who?” If he only matches Adam Dunn’s wOBA, then he’s about as good.

"Out of chaos comes order" - Nietzsche
"Oh, blow it out your a__" - Olson Johnson

by Russ on Nov 10, 2010 10:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Is the sample large enough

to say this with confidence? (Like, betting man’s confidence?)

by tmu on Nov 10, 2010 11:10 AM EST up reply actions  

The sample size is small

but if we take cjmulrain’s statement literally that “Duda isn’t a quarter of the hitter Dunn is,” then I’d make that bet for 2011.

"Out of chaos comes order" - Nietzsche
"Oh, blow it out your a__" - Olson Johnson

by Russ on Nov 10, 2010 11:13 AM EST up reply actions  

OK

but still unsafe to say he won’t be inferior.

He will be, however, a heck of a lot cheaper.

by tmu on Nov 10, 2010 11:14 AM EST up reply actions  

obviously that was hyperbole

but, it should be noted that Dunn’s one of the more proven OBP/Slugging guys in the majors, and he was in the top half of Baseball America’s Top 100 prospects list twice prior to making his ML debut as a 21 year old. Duda, if I’m not mistaken, hasn’t even made the Mets Top 10 Prospects list (and it’s not like the Mets have some unbelievably deep farm system), is going to be 25 next year, and has never hit the way Dunn has hit. I like Duda, I really do, but to expect anywhere near Dunn-level performance strikes me as folly. I think it’s within the range of expectations for him, but it’s like a 1% chance that he’ll hit that, whereas for Dunn it’s like a 90% chance he’ll stay at that level.

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Nov 10, 2010 12:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, it is much more than 1%

You’re kidding yourself. Duda was a top prospect out of high school. He went to USC, broke his wrist, and fell off of everyone’s radar. He genuinely has the talent. That’s why we have begun to see him appear on early 2011 lists as a Mets top 10 prospect.

"Out of chaos comes order" - Nietzsche
"Oh, blow it out your a__" - Olson Johnson

by Russ on Nov 10, 2010 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

but Dunn is really, really good

John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.

by squid92 on Nov 10, 2010 4:22 PM EST up reply actions  

again, I like Duda

but I think you’re either severely underrating Dunn, or overrating Duda. Duda’s ceiling is pretty much Adam Dunn, and I doubt he has 40+ homer power in him, broken wrist or not.

And, again, cracking a mediocre farm system’s top 10 prospects going into your age 25 season is a lot different than being an overall top 50 prospect in your age 20 and 21 seasons.

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Nov 10, 2010 4:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I see what you're saying, but

To put it another way, using the Orlando Hudson numbers you posted, based on balls hit to his zone, that’s the difference between hitting .201 in 2009 and .176 in 2010. Obviously those are both very low, because if you’re hitting a ball in the 2Bman’s zone, you probably aren’t getting a hit. Still, a .025 increase in BA is a .025 increase in BA, and all things equal will lead to an increase in OBP and SLG (I could grab the league average BB% and PF and try to calculate what sort of increase it would be in OPS, but I’m too lazy for that).

Anyway, the point is that it sounds all well and good to point out that a mere 13 plays is the difference between awesome and the gutter, and that seems ridiculous, but if you translate it to offensive stats that we’re more used to, and remember that the difference between a .275 hitter and a .300 hitter is one hit a week, it starts to make a little more sense.

To be clear, I do have plenty of skepticism about defensive stats, too, and I like the post, but I think it’s important to remember that quantification is essential—saying “13 plays” doesn’t really mean much unless you translate it to something we’re familiar with and can work with.

I had a link here to my blog, but it's now defunct and I guess I've lost the URL. Currently taking suggestions for a new signature.

by Lefti on Nov 10, 2010 10:42 AM EST reply actions  

If the suggestion was that the best 2Bman gets to 13 more balls than the worst 2Bman,

that’s way, way off. The difference between the best and worst is around a ball a game.

I like your translation to BA, although one hit a week turns a .250 hitter into a .300 hitter. (125/500 versus 150/500, which I believe were roughly the numbers hinted at in the famous speech from Bull Durham, when Costner is explaining to Robbins how utterly trivial the difference in talent is between a major leaguer and a guy who never sees The Show .)

Man did those mid80s Cardinal teams make their pitchers look brilliant.

by Jack Str on Nov 10, 2010 6:06 PM EST up reply actions  

This is a good article, but

“Penultimate” means “next to last.” As far as how Fangraphs WAR is the “next to last,” or “penultimate” sabermetrics statistic, or whatever you said, I don’t understand. Might want to edit that, or just use big words that have “ultimate” in them, regardless of their actual meaning.

by jmbrill on Nov 10, 2010 10:49 AM EST reply actions  

Not really

It’s the wrong word. It’s not much different from saying Bonds is second all time in home runs. Unless Sam is actually thinking of stat sabermagicians prefer over WAR.

by Evan_S on Nov 10, 2010 11:20 AM EST up reply actions  

It's not a big deal, Sam (possibly) made a mistake and jmbrill corrected it.

It’s not nitpicking to make a correction. I’m not saying Sam doesn’t know the meaning, but if I were to misuse a word, I’d want to be corrected so I wouldn’t make the mistake again.

by Evan_S on Nov 10, 2010 11:29 AM EST up reply actions  

No, I understand

Apologies. I just thought the initial comment was needlessly snide (kind of like my last comment.)

by tmu on Nov 10, 2010 11:39 AM EST up reply actions  

I'll back up jmbrill

Only because it’s annoying that no one uses “penultimate” correctly.

by CajoleJuice on Nov 10, 2010 1:08 PM EST up reply actions  

people get confused when you actually use that term properly

Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?

by KeithsMoustache on Nov 10, 2010 3:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I believe

in the dictionary is descriptive versus proscriptive, so common usage is fine. Problem with penultimate is the common usage would then conflict with the meaning of the previously agreed meaning. Gets too confusing for people to be using penultimate interchangeably as best and second best. Although Pujols is so good he is both the best and second best first baseman.

by wobatus on Nov 10, 2010 4:22 PM EST up reply actions  

ITYM "prescriptive"

To continue the pedantry.

by anonymous on Nov 10, 2010 5:27 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Unless wobatus

was describing how dictionaries forbid usage in some cases. Otherwise, you beat me to it, damnit.

by Jack Str on Nov 10, 2010 8:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Wait until we start the "antepenultimate" debate.

Though by the time this thread ends it may be a mute point.

by Jack Str on Nov 10, 2010 6:08 PM EST up reply actions  

While we're correcting each other

I believe it should be “moot point”

Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?

by KeithsMoustache on Nov 10, 2010 6:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Well

I think it’s kind of pompous to try to use a $50 word, and then use it wrong. Why use “penultimate” at all, if not simply to be… “ostentatious?” The worst part is that it’s a good article, but it is indicative of a larger, negative tendency within a significant portion of the sabermetrics community, and by extension the intellectual community in general: sabermetrics, and advanced statistics in general are great analytical tools, but showing off, or needlessly complicating things makes us look pretentious, or causes us to be forest-for-the-trees-wrong (for example using “penultimate” because it’s a big word instead of “foremost,” or “paramount,” or even “best,” when “penultimate” means “second to last”).

That said, LET’S GO METS!

by jmbrill on Nov 18, 2010 8:41 AM EST up reply actions  

I've never really trusted UZR

Matt Holliday, who consistently ranks as one of the better left fielders, looks terrible in the field. He’s awkward and doesn’t run particularly well. I don’t even think he’s good relative to other left fielders. Holliday’s fundamentals are also mediocre.

Conversely, Jason Bay is solid, if unspectacular in left field. He’s not the butcher he’s been labeled as.

To sufficiently scout defense right now, I still believe the best way is to use your eyes. Maybe when Field/fx is created, I’ll feel differently.

Trying to believe is my full-time occupation.

by Preach19 on Nov 10, 2010 11:18 AM EST reply actions  

Yay!

I tend to agree, but think the zone rankings are more reliable for OFs. Q: do they take into account where the OF starts from, or are there defined borders for the sake of consistency? Because OFs move around a lot b/w batters, and they’re often responding to coaching.

by tmu on Nov 10, 2010 11:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Can't agree with that

Your eyes deceive you all the time. Especially since not one of us is trained to actually know what we’re looking for from a defensive player, how can we be accurate? I guarantee if someone was shown a video of 10 play in the outfield, 9 of which resulted in a spectacular diving catch, then one didn’t everyone would say the last one was the least impressive even if the last guy covered more ground in a shorter period of time than the rest. Using your eyes is far too subjective to be accurate.

by Evan_S on Nov 10, 2010 11:24 AM EST up reply actions  

But seriosuly

Fortunately, the Mets can use BOTH experienced scouts AND UZR. Win-win.

by tmu on Nov 10, 2010 11:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Well if you're watching the player on TV you can't see his whole route

Clips don’t do justice. But a professional scout or executive who can watch a player fully in one play can discern some of these differences. I think UZR should only be used to help support what you see or don’t see. If it’s far away from what you see, the difference must be weighed, but I wouldn’t but too much stock in it.

Also, because positioning is a big deal for defense, I wonder how much of a difference that a coaching staff’s positioning could make in a player making those couple of extra plays to raise his numbers.

Trying to believe is my full-time occupation.

by Preach19 on Nov 10, 2010 11:33 AM EST up reply actions  

I meant to imply they were shown the entire play focused on the outfielder

It wouldn’t matter. Most people see diving catch and become excited. Ever notice how ‘web gems" are almost exclusive to players falling down to get the ball. Even plays where the player doesn’t have to dive to catch it get categorized as great because his uniform got dirty.

by Evan_S on Nov 10, 2010 11:38 AM EST up reply actions  

Most people shouldn't be making these teype

Most people shouldn’t be making these determinations. I also wouldn’t judge a player based on the amount of highlights he gets. When you watch a player every day, you get a good sense of his defensive ability. As fans we don’t get to watch every team every day to evaluate every player. But teams dispatch scouts to do so and I think that works.

I would consider UZR, but not but a huge amount of stock in it.

Trying to believe is my full-time occupation.

by Preach19 on Nov 10, 2010 11:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Meant to change that Subject Line

Trying to believe is my full-time occupation.

by Preach19 on Nov 10, 2010 11:48 AM EST up reply actions  

But UZR does take into account scouting

John Dewan’s +/- system is almost entirely scouting. He has his people watch every play and grade each player on how they do.

by Evan_S on Nov 10, 2010 11:54 AM EST up reply actions  

I like +/- better

For that reason, it’s a lot more reliable.

I haven’t made the argument that fielding metrics are useless, only that scouting can give you a better sense of the big picture. They need to be used because all methods should be considered when one makes an evaluation.

Trying to believe is my full-time occupation.

by Preach19 on Nov 10, 2010 12:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Eh

you’re both kind of wrong. +/- and UZR are basically the same, +/- is just crappier. This idea that +/- is based on scouting is because the video people at BIS mark which zone the ball was in, but both +/- and UZR are based on BIS’s data.

by Sam Page on Nov 10, 2010 1:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

To add onto what Sam said, the “scouting” the BIS people do is watching the games on their monitors – the same broadcast that all of us watch. They’re subject to the same limitations of that view, such as not being able to see the entire route.

by mnbv on Nov 10, 2010 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

How does UZR take scouting into account?

+/- and UZR are two seperate things.

mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon (and Billy King-Paul G B)

Official Member of the "DO NOT TRADE DERRICK FAVORS" Movement

by Gina on Nov 10, 2010 1:02 PM EST up reply actions  

UZR also has the issue

of using defined zones which have no way of accounting for shifts, or plays made out of the zone.

mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon (and Billy King-Paul G B)

Official Member of the "DO NOT TRADE DERRICK FAVORS" Movement

by Gina on Nov 10, 2010 1:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Edmonds

I always thought he was overrated based on the constant dives for balls, but apparently he is a pretty good fielder. How as I supposed to know? I figured Willie Mays would be making effortless basket catches on balls Edmonds was stretched out eating dirt trying to get.

by wobatus on Nov 10, 2010 3:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Yup. Lonnie Smith has a magnificent popup slide when he missed a ball

hit to him in the outfield. Dive, miss, slide, pop right up to his feet, chase triple. It was very elegant and great to watch if you were a fan of the other team. He got a lot of camera footage that way.

by Jack Str on Nov 10, 2010 6:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I think that UZR should be used to challenge what you see

I’d hate to rely solely on observation, except when stats are cherry picked to support an opinion.

"Out of chaos comes order" - Nietzsche
"Oh, blow it out your a__" - Olson Johnson

by Russ on Nov 10, 2010 11:40 AM EST up reply actions  

Again, I'm not advocating evaluation solely based on observation

I just think it’s more important than a number that’s subject to change very easily and doesn’t always a do a player justice.

Trying to believe is my full-time occupation.

by Preach19 on Nov 10, 2010 11:45 AM EST up reply actions  

That's why I liked Plus/Minus.

At least, how they make their sausage is “easier to understand” than the UZR blackbox. Most of the cases UZR and +/- were similar. Then they screwed up the data at fangraphs (total +/- is way more than zero).

by Michkin on Nov 10, 2010 11:58 AM EST up reply actions  

Holliday's career UZR/150 is +1.9

Solid, but not great. And left fielders are the dregs of the fielding world, so being slightly above average there doesn’t require you to be a paragon of grace.

by psiogen on Nov 10, 2010 11:31 AM EST up reply actions  

Look at his recent numbers

Last year it was 8.2. Seems pretty outrageous to me.

Trying to believe is my full-time occupation.

by Preach19 on Nov 10, 2010 11:37 AM EST up reply actions  

yeah but that's why you're not supposed to use one year of defensive data

I’m pretty sure you need 3 years worth for it to be significant. And that’s my problem with how people use UZR/WAR, they put way too much stock in one year of fielding/WAR as a predicator for future performance.

mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon (and Billy King-Paul G B)

Official Member of the "DO NOT TRADE DERRICK FAVORS" Movement

by Gina on Nov 10, 2010 1:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I tried to call this out on Fangraphs

On Dave Cameron’s Jeter Gold Glove post. UZR says Alexei Ramirez deserved the award, yet Cameron said Andrus probably deserved it. I asked if that means he doesn’t take much stock in UZR year-by-year, even though they use yearly UZR for their WAR calculation.

No one responded. :(

by CajoleJuice on Nov 10, 2010 1:10 PM EST up reply actions  

well I understand using UZR year by year in their WAR calculation

because WAR isn’t meant to be predictive, the problem is people seem to use it like it is. It’s just supposed to be a record of what happened given the data available. Though to be honest I don’t read enough fangraphs articles to know if they use it like it’s predictive perpetuating the problem or if it’s just everyone else.

mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon (and Billy King-Paul G B)

Official Member of the "DO NOT TRADE DERRICK FAVORS" Movement

by Gina on Nov 10, 2010 1:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, but if they are using it in their WAR calculation in that way (they are, you're right)

Why would Cameron say that Andrus probably deserved to win the Gold Glove this year, when his UZR was the definition of average?

by CajoleJuice on Nov 10, 2010 1:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah I misread your initial comment

and no idea.

mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon (and Billy King-Paul G B)

Official Member of the "DO NOT TRADE DERRICK FAVORS" Movement

by Gina on Nov 10, 2010 1:21 PM EST up reply actions  

"It’s just supposed to be a record of what happened given the data available." Even that is not exactly true.
Well, maybe and maybe not. A player’s UZR does not necessarily tell you how he actually played just as it does not necessarily tell you what his true talent is.

That is because it is not measuring something that is categorized,

Now, to some extent we are measuring something which is categorized, even though I just said that we aren’t. It is just that it is not particularly evident.

Now, even though, as I said, to some extent with UZR we are measuring whether a fielder caught a certain "type" (speed, location, etc.) of ball or not, and that measurement is unambiguous, just because a player has a plus UZR does not mean that he necessarily played good defense – the same for a negative UZR.

That is exactly what we are doing with UZR! UZR tries to record a player’s likely true talent and estimate his future performance based on the nuances of the batted ball and the player’s response to those nuances. It is not trying to capture exactly what happens on the field according to some arbitrary categories, like most of the offensive metrics (which make no distinction between a lucky ground ball bleeder through the "5-hole" or a clean, line drive base hit to the outfield), even the advanced ones like wOBA or linear weights.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-fangraphs-uzr-primer/#15

by Michkin on Nov 10, 2010 1:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I remember reading that

And I’m still trying to wrap my head around it. Although I think the bolded part might have just clicked. Maybe that’s how it’s different than something like Plus/Minus, which seems to be trying to do exactly that (capture exactly what happens on the field according to some arbitrary categories).

But this: “just because a player has a plus UZR does not mean that he necessarily played good defense – the same for a negative UZR”

So why is it used to calculate fWAR, again?

by CajoleJuice on Nov 10, 2010 1:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Yea, like I said

this post is in support of UZR by promoting its proper use.

by Sam Page on Nov 10, 2010 1:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh yeah, you're cool

Maybe I’m getting off topic here bashing Dave Cameron and fWAR a bit. But it’s my way of supporting this post.

by CajoleJuice on Nov 10, 2010 1:30 PM EST up reply actions  

no

bashing fangraphs is definitely on topic

by Sam Page on Nov 10, 2010 1:32 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I like the stuff just before the bolded part

Just because he had a good uzr doesn’t mean a guy played good d, and bad uzr doesn’t mean bad d.

by wobatus on Nov 10, 2010 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

The other ones are pretty high too

Because I was in class, I just didn’t didn’t reproduce them.

5.0 in 2007
2.9 in 2008
4.0 in 2009

It’s a pretty high indication that the system likes him. I, however, don’t.

Trying to believe is my full-time occupation.

by Preach19 on Nov 10, 2010 3:50 PM EST up reply actions  

I also said

“Look at his recent numbers.” I understand that it can be taken in a one season sample size.

Trying to believe is my full-time occupation.

by Preach19 on Nov 10, 2010 6:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I could be totally wrong but I was always under the impression

that -5 to 5 was considered pretty much average.

mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon (and Billy King-Paul G B)

Official Member of the "DO NOT TRADE DERRICK FAVORS" Movement

by Gina on Nov 10, 2010 7:08 PM EST up reply actions  

But that 10 point spread makes a difference

So maybe Holliday is on the 75th percentile (which is complete shot in the dark). He’s above average to well above average. It’s surprising considering his seemingly poor skillset as an outfielder.

Trying to believe is my full-time occupation.

by Preach19 on Nov 10, 2010 7:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Fangraphs

was dissing bay all last off-season and I commenete in several threads that I didn’t see how he was that bad (he was something like -18 uzr in 2009) given all the other evidence out there. Sam wrote a piece here that given Dewan and Total Zone take he likely wasn’t quite as bad as UZR made him out to be in 2009 at least.

Lo and behold, they changed the park effect for Fenway and his 2009 became a +2.

He still rotted in prior years, but it felt like a little bit of vindication.

by wobatus on Nov 10, 2010 3:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Agree with the assessment of Bay, but

all he needs to do is to get to one ball fewer every four games than the average LFer and while I’d have trouble detecting that solely by observation, it would make him a horrific defender.

So, Preach, how do you regress this stuff? Particularly when projecting I take only half a player’s UZR unless there’s a long history of steady performance.

by Jack Str on Nov 10, 2010 6:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Bay's UZR's are all over the place

From atrocity to adequate to super-atrocity and back again. It’s difficult to forecast because there’s a lot of factors that go into fielding stats (ballpark, pitching staff, luck, etc).

I think that’s my point exactly—because the numbers are so volatile, they’re hard to trust. Some of the commenters above misinterpreted me as saying that UZR is completely useless. It’s not—all numbers should be considered when making a final judgment on a player’s ability. But UZR’s volatility just makes me regard them with a skepticism that I don’t have for offensive stats. Ultimately, your eyes are probably your most valuable resource in judging a player’s fielding ability.

Trying to believe is my full-time occupation.

by Preach19 on Nov 10, 2010 6:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I appreciate your willingness to put an unpopular opinion out there.

I don’t go quite that far, but I do think it’s impossible to rationally judge a player’s defense without skilled observation as a significant component of the evaluation.

by Jack Str on Nov 10, 2010 9:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Sabermetrics provide alternate ways to evaluate

It’s vital for sabermetric advocates to realize that the numbers are very useful, but not infallible. UZR is less trustworthy, in my opinion, than some of the others.

Stats have to be significant components, but they can never be the only components. Look at how Billy Beane placed an emphasis on players with good makeups—it lessened the economic gamble. Baseball is about strengthening probabilities (as Sandy has said), and all evaluation is about providing greater certainty. A variety of different factors go into the probability.

Trying to believe is my full-time occupation.

by Preach19 on Nov 10, 2010 10:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Forgive me if this has been mentioned, haven't skimmed through previous comments yet

But another reason for the difference in Hudson’s year-to-year UZR is the quality of all the other second baseman in the league. I remember reading an article a while back about how this is another common problem with trying to use single-season UZR rates, because the turn over in personell manning a particular position from one season to the next is relatively large relative to the sample of total players who get a significant number of chances at the given position. So the baseline for average in one season can actually be wildly different from the next, which means players who have fairly similar raw components in two different seasons can wind up with wildly different composite marks once everything is converted to runs compared to average.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Nov 10, 2010 1:33 PM EST reply actions  

Isn't some three-year weighted average used as the baseline?

I might be completely off here. Would still lead to changes, but not quite as different as you are implying.

by CajoleJuice on Nov 10, 2010 1:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Was gonna ask if you guys had a link

But I did a little digging of my own to try and clarify. The original piece I was referencing can be found here, a BtB article about a year ago by Jeff Zimmerman. The comments have an interesting discussion, including a reference to this piece by noted screenwriter Eric Seidman, which also contains some interesting discussion in the comments.

MGL actually clarifies this issue in the comments of Seidman’s article

The baseline for each "bucket" (for example, hard hit ground balls hit within 5 feet of the second base bag) is based on 4 years of data. That is to smooth out the fluctuations you get because some of those "buckets" have so few balls in them (small sample size).

However, once everyone’s UZR is calculated relative to those 4 year samples, each year is "zero’d out" per position. So, as Eric says, a player’s UZR is always relative to the pool of players in both leagues for that year only.

So basically, he uses multiple years of data when comparing the relative value of specific play-types, but that’s because of a straight sample size issue, not to establish a multi-year baseline for “average” UZR. He re-adjusts after the fact so single season ratings are compared to that season alone. His explanation for why he does it this way:

I did not have to do that. I would have left everyone’s UZR as relative to the 4 years that I use as the baselines for each bucket. That actually would be much better if the data did not have biases in some years as compared to others. But I am afraid it does, so that I am forced to make a "Sophie’s Choice" (not quite as serious of course) and I chose the zero everything out per year.

There is some debate as to the actual potential implications of the “Rollins Effect,” as this issue is termed in both places. In the Seidman comments, Colin Wyers lists the average change in UZR for players who played the same position in consecutive years.

Year AVG_DIFF
2003 0.37
2004 -1.07
2005 0.30
2006 0.64
2007 0.74
2008 -0.01

He concludes that this displays no evidence of the “Rollins Effect” having a significant impact. I’m not entirely convinced. The primary question I would have is whether this is data for all positions (which it well could be) or just for SS’s (since that was the position in question generally in the article). If its the former, a 1.81 variation from high to low point seems fairly large, as the input data is a sizable sample if you include every position. I would also wonder whether there is more potential for deviation at the more defensively volatile positions, such as SS, where offense and defense are both always at a sort of conflicting premium. If this data is just for SS’s, I would have to agree with him that this deviation seems pretty insignificant, though still not completely convinced its worth writing off. I also tend to think a guy like Wyers is probably much more familiar with this kind of data than me, so a part of me simply wants to give him the benefit of the doubt, but, well, what’s the fun in that?

In the end, I think MGL sums it up pretty well at the end of his comment with this:

Just to make one more thing clear. You are going to see much more random fluctuation on a player’s UZR from year to year than you will from a change in league-wide talent, so when you see a player with +5, +3, +7, -6, while you can probably infer a league-wide talent increase in that -6 year, on the average, don’t assume THAT much of a talent change. Most of that change is likely to be random fluctuation, secondly, some of that change is likely a change in that player’s true talent, and lastly, the smallest amount of that change is likely to be a change in league-wide talent at that position (an increase in this case).

Since we’re talking about Orlando Hudson specifically here—a player well established both statistically and in terms of defensive reputation and the wrong side of 30—and since the UZR number increased in 2010, we can pretty safely rule out a significant spike in true talent. So the obvious hypothesis this is probably something like a combination three parts random variation and one part change in league baseline.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Nov 10, 2010 10:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Those numbers from Wyer's comment are actually based on UZR_150, no straight UZR

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Nov 10, 2010 10:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Hitters

are still usually around the same level generally speaking above or below league average year after year, but not fielders, who can fluctuate above and below average much more frequently. I think fielding is probably a fairly steady skill, maybe not quite as steady as batting (after all, batting you are mainly standing still, not chasing the ball around), but the way it gets measured, or the mere type of balls hit to players and results, leads to this perception of more variability.

I just don’t know if one players gets a negative uzr and another gets a positive necessarily means the one with the positive numbers got to more balls that the negative guy wouldn’t have, unless the variance is large and spread over years. They aren’t the same balls being hit to them, no matter that they went to the same box on a grid with someone saying whether it was hard, soft or medium.

by wobatus on Nov 11, 2010 8:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Yea

that’s what I’m hinting at. But also, the range (no pun intended) of the values seem small every year, so two yearly baselines that produce drastically different UZR numbers may not be that far off.

by Sam Page on Nov 10, 2010 1:55 PM EST up reply actions  

As in basically what Wyers was saying with the numbers I just posted above?

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Nov 10, 2010 10:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Good point regarding Seattle and one I have been thinking about recently

Does anyone remember how many predicted wins sources such as Fangraphs had for Seattle before the 2010 season? I assume it came out somewhere in the mid-to-high 80s?

by True Blue4 on Nov 10, 2010 1:36 PM EST reply actions  

In a related comment

Where do you find the sort of “injury-corrected” results that try to compare what the simulations assumed the roster would look like (injuries, number of PA for each player, etc.) with what actually happened? It would be very tough, because often teams look nothing at the end of the season like they did at the beginning. They go from Mike Jacobs and Gary Matthews, Jr. to Ike Davis and Angel Pagan, and so forth.

by tmu on Nov 10, 2010 1:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Fielding is “less important” until someone muffs a play and costs the Mets a run. I wouldn’t fetishize the glove men either but I don’t want a bunch of Adam Dunns out there. There’s also something aesthetically pleasing to watching a crisp fielding team that knows what it’s doing out there. The mid-80’s Mets were a classic example. Except for Keith, there were no super fielders, but everyone made the plays they were supposed to make, kept their heads in the game, threw to the right base, etc. (Granted, I’ve never looked at their UZR ratings.)
I just hope the new mgmt regime puts smart players on the field who can support the pitching staff and make the plays they’re supposed to make.

by sturock on Nov 10, 2010 3:59 PM EST reply actions  

And in the outfield

you’re giving up doubles.

The underrated skill for first basemen is handling throws. You don’t need to be particularly nimble for that, but you do need some quickness. Fortunately, most good hitters have quick wrists and good relfexes. Frank Thomas still sucked over there, though.

by tmu on Nov 10, 2010 5:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Heck

Just go back to Todd Hundley in left and Piazza at first.

The “best infield ever” or whatever would have been much better had Olerud slid over to short and Zeile come to the team a year earlier.

I was way wrong about Jeff Franceour . . . but at least I wasn't paid for it.

by tmu on Nov 10, 2010 6:25 PM EST up reply actions  

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