Amazin' Avenue Book Club: Moneyball, Chapter Three
Before we begin discussion of Chapter Three I'd like to say somethin' -- here is my brief advice for Terry Collins:
1. Defend your players. Don't throw them under the bus.
2. Keep the sacrifice bunting to a minimum. No sac bunting in the first inning.
3. Try to bat your best hitters at the top of the lineup. Reyes-Pagan-Beltran-Wright is a nice start.
4. No emo glasses.
5. Don't let Pedro Feliciano face Matt Diaz.
Follow that and there won't be too much manager bashing in AA game recaps. Now here is Chapter Three: The Enlightenment.
The focus of Chapter Three is Billy Beane's failed playing career and transition to role as A's executive. Billy struggles in the Mets' farm system in the early 1980s, as colleagues Darryl Strawberry and Len Dykstra enjoy tremendous success. Much like the Grady Fuson/Paul DePodesta juxtaposition in Chapter Two, Billy and Dykstra are presented as polar opposites in mentality. Dykstra is supremely confident and able to forget his failures almost instantly. Contrast with Billy, who broods over his defeats and openly discusses exiting pro baseball to go back to college. In one of the more memorable lines from Moneyball, Dykstra fails to recognize baseball legend Steve Carlton warming up on the mound, and says:
Sh*t, I'll stick him.
Dykstra sees fresh meat -- Billy sees the unhittable slider and 300+ career wins.
Billy is eventually traded to the Twins, has a stint with the Tigers and spends his final pro ball days with the A's. He fails as a player, and intangibles are generally accepted as the reason why. Talent isn't enough to compensate for psychological demons.
It's clear that in order to make the big leagues, certain intangible qualities are necessary. Most players who make it that far possess the requisite mental fortitude to succeed. At that point, production can largely speak for itself. This is why I, and many others, become annoyed at the overemphasis on intangibles in MLB. To make it to the bigs, a player is likely motivated, can perform under pressure, etc.
Sandy Alderson makes his brief Moneyball appearance in Chapter Three. Billy approaches Alderson and requests a job as a scout. Alderson obliges, probably not realizing at that time (the year is 1990) that he would be grooming his new hire as successor GM.
The remainder of the chapter focuses on Alderson and his scientific approach to the game as an outsider. He commissions a former aerospace engineer, Eric Walker, to research which statistics and in-game strategies matter the most. Alderson also hires a pair of Stanford business students for his burgeoning statistics department, although that is not mentioned in Moneyball. It seems so simple -- when running an organization, a GM should want to know which practices are most conducive to scoring and preventing runs. Yet this process was eschewed by generations of baseball bigwigs, for various reasons. Alderson's approach reminds me of a John F. Kennedy quote I read recently in Robert F. Kennedy's memoir of the Cuban Missile Crisis, Thirteen Days. Here's JFK:
The first advice I'm going to give my successor is to watch the generals and to avoid feeling that because they were military men their opinions on military matters were worth a damn.
Alderson challenged the conventional wisdom of baseball men and enjoyed success because of it. This is what Sam meant a few weeks back when he wrote that "the Mets have now hired the man Moneyball is actually about." Billy Beane was fascinated by Alderson's take on the game and rose through the ranks of the A's front office. Without Sandy Alderson, there is no Billy Beane.
Let's end it there. For more on Alderson's involvement in Moneyball, check out 7 Train To Shea.
Mets-centric appearances/mentions in Chapter Three:
- Len Dykstra, former Met and 1986 World Series Champion
- George Foster, former Met
- Davey Johnson, former Mets manager and 1986 World Series Champion
- Jerry Koosman, former Met and 1969 World Series Champion
- Rickey Henderson, former Met
- Sandy Alderson, Mets GM
- Art Howe, former Mets manager and battler
Discussion questions:
1. As a GM, would you prefer a "psychological freak" like Len Dykstra, or a more heady player who analyzes his performance (think Brian Bannister)? Which type of player is more primed for success?
2. Is Jeff Francoeur the present day version of 1980s Billy Beane? Michael Lewis writes in Chapter Three:
"He [Billy] didn't have a baseball mentality," said Jeff Bittiger. "He was more like a basketball or a football player. Emotions were always such a big part of whatever he did."
Frenchy isn't an unhinged buffet table flipper like Billy seemed to be (although Frenchy did bash a water cooler after a game in 2009). Still, I think there is a legitimate comparison -- physically gifted player; beloved by scouts; has The Good Face; can't hit a lick.
3. Is mental evaluation the next great frontier in scouting?
4. Was Moneyball your first introduction to sabermetrics? If not, what was?
5. Not a discussion question, but check out Dykstra's stats as a 20 year-old at Hi-A Lynchburg in 1983: .358/.472/.503, 107 walks, 35 strikeouts, 105 stolen bases and 525 ABs.
41 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
1. I’d rather have the psychological freak 99 times out of 100. Professional athletes can’t afford to let what’s behind them hang over their heads.
2. I guess you could put it that way.
OH NO DOES THIS MEAN WE’LL HAVE FRENCHY AS OUR GM SOMEDAY
3. No. A lot of it is just a waste of time, like the hypnotist they mentioned that the St. Louis Browns hired. Stuff like that is just quackery.
4. No. Reading the book for the first time now. Already somewhat familiar with sabermetrics.
"I bet you'd lobby her, you horny 15 year old!" -Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan
Sports psychology
re 3: Dorfman, the sports psychologist mentioned in this chapter is also the guy that Roy Halladay credits with helping turn around his career.
I don’t know if there needs to be a structured way of mental evaluation, but makeup does seem important for prospects, and being able to get a handle on that couldn’t hurt.
I actually think that mental evaluations show a lot of promise in a lot of ways.
There are the obvious cases of mental blocks: the Mackey Sassers of the world. But I have to imagine that if Billy Beane proves one thing, it’s that self-doubt can be disastrous, as can over-thinking. Offhand I can name a few guys who went to sports psychologists and saw improvement, and I’m sure there are a lot more. It’s one of those things that I have to imagine should at least be tried by teams, rather than giving up on a guy. That would also allow a track record to be established.
It reminds me of the time I lost my glasses overboard on a boat and ended up at the local Wal-Mart for a new pair, which Wal-Mart happens to be right next to an Air Force base. The eye doctor had previously in the Air Force and as you might expect he gave me a hyper-thorough eye exam and my glasses were perfect. I asked him about why he was so thorough and he explained it as follows: “When a guy becomes a fighter pilot his vision has to be 20/20, but people get older and as a natural consequence of age eyes begin to go. By the time the average fighter pilot has been in for a few years the military has spent millions of dollars on training and development, so it’s very wasteful to kick them out because their eyes got bad. So we just make sure their contacts are perfect.”
It's a triumph of number crunching over the human spirit...aaaaaand, it’s about time. -- Play-by-Play Announcer, The Simpsons.
by MookieTheCat on Nov 24, 2010 6:34 PM EST up reply actions
Moneyball was my introduction to sabermetrics
and I was hooked. It just made so much sense.
Mental evaluation: I think it actually will come after biomechanics, which can tell us more, I think
Formerly firejerrynow
The book was, indeed, my introduction to sabermetrics...
But I mean that in a conceptual sense; the beauty of the book for me was that it laid out what sabermetrics was about. It answered the question, why did we need to evaluate players on a group of ever-more-tailored statistics?
Moneyball helped me tremendously in understanding why these numbers festooned with decimal points and odd acronyms matter to the sport. Then, I could go gout and try to understand the numbers themselves.
Also, we need not diminish that Frenchy has a great smile.
The South shall rise again! And it will have a tender, flaky crust!
The quote of the chapter
and it relates to the opening about Collins:
“In what other business,” Alderson asked, “do you leave the fate of the organization to a middle manager?”
Another good one:
“Patience and discipline at the plate has never been reinforced. They say, ’They’re not paying me to walk.’ And so if you don’t lean on them, they don’t.”
The questions:
1. If I were a GM, I would prefer a heady player like a Bannister. I would lean in that direction because the heady player is more likely to understand what is affecting and make the necessary adjustments in his performance.
2. In a way, yeah. From the football mentality to the lack of walks(sidebar: I’m almost positive Francoeur has had longer stretches of not taking walks than Beane’s 74) and the Good Face


We could plug Jeff’s name into this quote & we wouldn’t be able to tell the difference:
“Teammates would look at Billy and see the future of the New York Mets. Scouts would look at him and see what they’d always seen. The hose. The wheels. The Body. The Good Face.”
3. I’m not entirely sure. Yeah the game is mental as well as physical, but how would they go about evaluating that? Would it be something similar to the Wonderlic Test?
4. Nah, AA was. This is my first time reading Moneyball and it’s a good read.
5. Since you brought up Dykstra:
“Lenny didn’t read books; he wrote them.”
And sorta related to the mental aspect of the game, the Mets really did Beane a disservice by being overly aggressive with him. Sure you can think Billy is more ready than Straw, but why not start him off in the lower levels & promote him from there? It might not’ve made a difference in the long run(Beane was lukewarm to playing baseball & had no plate discipline), but starting him off in a high-level certainly didn’t help his cause.
What's that about?
It's interesting to think about
Maybe the coaches at the lower levels have a different approach as well; they might have understood his issues and known how to instruct him. Whereas maybe he was left to flounder by the coaches he did have because he was expected to know what he didn’t yet know. I do think that major league players make themselves stars, but there must be a lot of talented guys who could have, and just didn’t encounter the right guidance at the right time.
It doesn’t seem that he thinks he missed out on his great life, though. Perhaps taking a larger view, he’s happy that he had the experience he did, so that it could inform the life he really wanted to live. I despise that phrase “everything happens for a reason” — it may be a happy philosophy to use to make sense of passing difficulties, but it’s worthless if it can’t also account for, say, a genocide — but it seems that Beane does feel quite content that he was a washout. (And, I have to say, I wouldn’t wish being a superstar on an enemy, because it seems almost necessarily personality-warping.)
No plate discipline
I wonder how much of Beane’s lack of plate discipline was intrinsic as opposed to, for lack of a better word, reactive. It seems like he was extremely anxious about performing and hitting, and the only way he felt he could perform was to make contact with the ball. He couldn’t lay off on any pitches because he always wanted to make something happen with every pitch. If the Mets could have calmed him down, would his plate discipline have been better?
I wonder what Beane's baseball playing career would have been like
if the Mets started him in rookie ball instead of A-.
"The Mets are gonna be amazing." - Casey Stengel
Another great chapter
1) As long as we don’t mean the over thinkers who psyche themselves out and more the guys like Hatteberg, Bannister, Boggs than I’d take either or. The mentally fragile and lazy types seem like the bigger problems. Lazy might be the wrong word, maybe unmotivated?
4) I have no clue when I got officially into sabremetrics. I know I was a little kid who used to wonder the same stuff as Bill James did. I guess a couple years ago, I started to follow the better baseball sites after being tired of the ESPNS.
One of the sad things in the book, for me
Is their ruthlessness about possibility. They can’t afford to take chances, so they won’t. People who don’t fit a particular set of circumstances and characteristics won’t be considered. Which is sad, for all those guys with irregular circumstances and characteristics. I wouldn’t want my life and potential appraised along such unforgiving lines.
And, where would sports be without all the great overcoming-the-odds stories? Hell, maybe a guy like Greinke needs to be drafted by a clueless front office, or there is no Greinke.
A guy like Grieke is getting drafted no matter what.
It’s just whether high risk High School pitchers go in the first round for millions or people start to draft them in like… round 5 for 200k. The Red Sox share Beane’s general philosophy except they have a $150M+ to spend. They’ve been drafting nothing but high risk players because they can risk it and just go out and sign free agents if a ton fail.
maybe I'm cynical, but I imagine most people's lives and potential are appraised
along such unforgiving lines, especially when there’s a large risk/sum of money to be lost.
Official Member of The Ancient Mystic Society of No Melo
Official Member of the "DO NOT TRADE DERRICK FAVORS" Movement
Santonio Holmes: you don't need open field moves when you've got getting away from the cops speed.
err I mean in situations where there's a large investment/risk of a loss of huge sum
of money.
Official Member of The Ancient Mystic Society of No Melo
Official Member of the "DO NOT TRADE DERRICK FAVORS" Movement
Santonio Holmes: you don't need open field moves when you've got getting away from the cops speed.
Life can be pretty unforgiving, true
But I think the way the world generally operates is often more analogous to old-school baseball evaluation and reward systems. We are a deeply irrational species. We like what we like, we get drawn in, we like the long shot. I think most interviews come down to personality, really. Gut feeling. Kids get into schools because they’re legacies. Tall people make more money than short people.
I sound like I’m lamenting something that’s a good thing – more logical decision making. And the moneyball approach did help the careers of players who had previously been less valued. I just can’t help feeling bad for the guy who gets the Milo.
as far as I know the main reason kids get into schools because they're legacies
is because they’re much less likely to transfer out. I know for out of state students trying to get into UNC legacy is pretty much the most important thing for that reason. mostly because they do see every kid they let in as an investment and at the cost of someone else.
Official Member of The Ancient Mystic Society of No Melo
Official Member of the "DO NOT TRADE DERRICK FAVORS" Movement
Santonio Holmes: you don't need open field moves when you've got getting away from the cops speed.
Sadly
You are correct here. Having interviewed literally hundreds of people for highly-paid management positions, I can assure you that we judged people on absolutely everything. From your grades in school to the way you sat in your chair during the interview to your haircut, you were judged. One slip in an answer to a question and the candidate was done. Period. I also sat through such interviews before being employed and once I sat with my colleagues discussing candidates I learned how horrible it was.
It's a triumph of number crunching over the human spirit...aaaaaand, it’s about time. -- Play-by-Play Announcer, The Simpsons.
by MookieTheCat on Nov 25, 2010 11:48 PM EST up reply actions
Yup. I was part of the selection process at a good architecture school.
Portfolios were required to be bound at one edge. One student submitted beautiful original drawings with a slightly unorthodox binding and a secretary simply dropped them in a trash can.
As for business interviews, looks play a tremendous role.
Stories like that
always make me think that it’s not surprising how few of the problems in this world get fixed.
"The lesson behind Moneyball is that if you are clever in your use of resources, you can gain power beyond your station. It is not, never has been, and never will be, that 'computer models' should take over the world." - Graham
by Thomas Wachtel on Nov 26, 2010 12:44 AM EST up reply actions
Bureaucracy is the rabies of invention.
It's a triumph of number crunching over the human spirit...aaaaaand, it’s about time. -- Play-by-Play Announcer, The Simpsons.
by MookieTheCat on Nov 26, 2010 1:07 AM EST up reply actions
Not sure I accept Alderson's premise.
"In what other business," Alderson asked, "do you leave the fate of the organization to a middle manager?"
The manager is a middle manager if the organization decides that’s his role. It’s also perfectly possible to have a manager who is at least as much the leader of the club as the GM, someone who has a great deal of say in player acquisitions, roster composition, drafting, and so forth.
But, yeah, if your organizational structure has the manager function as a middle management type, then going through all the work of assembling a major league baseball team and simply handing the keys to a guy who doesn’t know in great detail about how baseball games are really won or lost and saying, “have at it, see you in the fall” makes no sense.
by Jack Str on Nov 24, 2010 11:29 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
And It's Interesting That Alderson Hired LaRussa Who Was Far From A Middle Mgr
I agree. A strong organization shouldn’t see the field manager as a middle manager. He should be seen as a key part of the organization.
And one other thought about organization dynanics, good, well run organizations empower their middle management. I have worked in companies that have done this and they were highly successful and very innovative.
I have also worked at places that see their middle management as a bunch of implementers who should have no ideas of their own and they were not very successful and highly bureaucratic.
Makes a lot of sense to me.
If you see in the manager someone who can complement the skills of the GM and the rest of the FO while bringing his own virtues and abilities to the table, you’ve added potential for real value. If you deny him any initiative and simply demand that he carry out orders, you won’t lose anything but you won’t gain anything, either.
I was with you till no emo glasses
lets not blame a perfectly good fashion statement for the actions of a practicer.
Official Member of The Ancient Mystic Society of No Melo
Official Member of the "DO NOT TRADE DERRICK FAVORS" Movement
Santonio Holmes: you don't need open field moves when you've got getting away from the cops speed.
by Gina on Nov 25, 2010 1:26 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
This
Rec’d
Do not equate my facewear with Jerry, ever.
It's a triumph of number crunching over the human spirit...aaaaaand, it’s about time. -- Play-by-Play Announcer, The Simpsons.
by MookieTheCat on Nov 25, 2010 11:48 PM EST up reply actions
It's a case of one practicer (practitioner?) ruining a trend
I can’t ever again look at Rivers Cuomo glasses and not think of Jerryball

“After David Wright suffered a concussion Saturday, Manuel said Wright is a “different animal” than Church, who missed extended time after suffering two concussions last season. Church, who was traded to the Braves for Jeff Francoeur last month, resented Manuel implicitly questioning his toughness."
(Link)
by James Kannengieser on Nov 25, 2010 11:51 PM EST up reply actions
Billy Beane
may hold the record for most plate appearances in a season where his BA exceeds his obp. That is not an easy feat.
Looked it up, not true.
I remember someone having a bunch of a PAs, but having their sacs outweigh their couple walks.
Crap
I didn’t even know this was possible until know. Damn.
It's a triumph of number crunching over the human spirit...aaaaaand, it’s about time. -- Play-by-Play Announcer, The Simpsons.
by MookieTheCat on Nov 25, 2010 11:49 PM EST up reply actions
Billy in 1989, 79 ABs had zero walks and one sac fly
leading to a 241 BA, 238 OBP. Sac bunts don’t count against BA since you’re not even trying for a hit. You might get lucky with an fielder’s choice miscue or error but you have virtually zero shot at a hit. Sac flies are accidents that occur while trying to actually hit the ball.
Gotcha
When it was mentioned I thought about it and it made sense. Just one of those things that happens so rarely that it never occurs to you to think about it.
It's a triumph of number crunching over the human spirit...aaaaaand, it’s about time. -- Play-by-Play Announcer, The Simpsons.
by MookieTheCat on Nov 26, 2010 12:24 AM EST up reply actions
Not necessarily accidents, are they?
If a player doesn’t have home run ability (e.g. Castillo) yet he deliberately hits a fly ball to bring a run home, it’s not an accident.
Moneyball
1 – Ideally you want a combo like a Carlos Delgado or Al Leiter. Both were known for keeping meticulous notes on the opposition and how they did against them. However, if I have to choose b/w a talented, confident, meathead like Lenny Dykstra or a heady, thinking marginal talent like Brian Bannister, I’ll take the Dykstra everytime.
2 – Frenchy actually had some good years in Atlanta. The league finally figured out he had no plate discipline which is why he is declining. Beane was never able to put together close to the seasons Frenchy has. Also, it isn’t clear to me Frenchy has Beane’s intelligence.
3 – Yes. And I think this is very underrated as Beane showed. Sports psychologists have helped tons of players from John Smoltz early in his career to Roy Halladay to our own Mike Pelfrey.
4 – No. I was aware of Bill James work and I was also aware of earlier proponents of stats in baseball such as Earl Weaver who used them effectively for platooning players, prepping pitchers (much to Jim Palmer’s annoyance), etc. Weaver’s weren’t as advanced as the ones used today but he also managed most of his career in the pre-PC world so there wasn’t as much available to him. I am sure the Earl of Baltimore would have loved all the advances in sabermetrics since he was always looking for an edge.
5- Amazing stats. I remember reading them when he came up with the Mets and being amazed. I always had a soft spot for Mookie Wilson b/c his and Hubie Brooks arrival began to signal the turning around of the Mets in the 1980s. However, Dykstra was clearly the better player if only because Mookie had no plate discipline.
Agree except with one caveat..Looking at Mets careers.
Delgado. Ringless.
Leiter. Ringless.
Lenny. RING!
It's a triumph of number crunching over the human spirit...aaaaaand, it’s about time. -- Play-by-Play Announcer, The Simpsons.
by MookieTheCat on Nov 25, 2010 11:50 PM EST up reply actions
4-The early Bill James Abstracts
before he became an industry. Great stuff, and they contained valuable lessons in how to investigate, research, and reason. That they were about baseball was almost incidental. The best essays were about life.
The psych-freak vs the thinker depends on the talent level of the player
for all-star caliber talent, go with the psych freak, for more middle of the pack and bench guys, i’d prefer cerebral because it gives them a chance to overcome their shortcomings.
I do see a lot of parallels with Beane and Frenchy now that you mention it. Except Frenchy isn’t smart.
Mental scouting is an interesting proposition, but as personality testing currently stands, there aren’t many tests I can see being useful in a baseball setting. Thats not to say that such a test couldn’t exist, but validation of these sorts of tests could take years even after they’re established, so I don’t think we’re on the horizon of such a movement just yet.
My introduction to sabermetrics was here at AA. Was introduced to the site, then started digging into it so I could figure out what was going on around here. Moneyball came about a year later more for my own curiosity than as an intro to the field.
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Nov 27, 2010 12:05 PM EST reply actions

by 
































