Baseball America Whiffs on Future Mets Lineup
Continuing in my recent mini-run of stealing other writer's ideas and applying them to the Mets, today I'll steal a column from the good work done by Adam Peterson over at SBN counterpart Twinkie Town. Peterson looked at Baseball America's projected future lineup from 2007, and found that the site did a good job of predicting the future Twins lineup. The site got 11 of 15 lineup spots correct, and really that number should have been 12 because Johan Santana was SOMEONE's number-one pitcher, just not the Twins'.
Perhaps you deduced from the title, but Baseball America didn't do as well with the Mets. Check out their predicted lineup after the jump.
Baseball America's projected 2011 lineup, done in November 2007:Ummm... yeah. Not so good. By my count, BA got four names right out of fifteen, and only two (maybe three) are in the right position on the chart. If we extend this to other teams' lineups, we only get Lastings Milledge and Carlos Gomez as possible additions - but neither of the two is starting for their respective teams, so really the number is four.
One interesting note as we go into the upcoming season is that Carlos Beltran was predicted to move to right field by now, which may be relatively prescient. It seems like the right thing to do with Angel Pagan in town and Beltran on wonky knees. It's also interesting that Fernando Martinez, a centerfielder at the time of this writing, was predicted to end up at first base. His defensive decline must have been easy to see coming from a scouting perspective.
The largest whiffs come in the pitching staff. Seems like Baseball America was duped by young Oliver Perez, but putting him as a future number two starter was a tad.. optimistic. Is the book closed on John Maine? If it is, he never once sniffed number-one-starter status. Mike Pelfrey actually is a "number two" or "number three," so at least they got
that part right. But Eddie Kunz as even a viable major league reliever, that is a flat-out whiff. He'd already debuted at the time of this writing, and as a 21-year-old college pitcher in rookie ball, struck out six per nine and walked six per nine. That is not the debut of a future closer, even given the small sample size.
We have to be careful not to blame this all on Baseball America. The Mets also had high hopes for some of these players - although they did well to trade Carlos Gomez, Lastings Milledge and Deolis Guerra away, so they must have known some of the shortcomings of their own players. Still, some of the blame goes to the Mets for failing to develop their players correctly, or on the Mets for failing to pick the correct players. The Twins are known for their ability to develop their pitchers, and they've got a ton of homegrown pitchers filling their staff.
And yet, Baseball America listed Brant Rustich as having the best fastball in the system. Philip Humber had the best curveball, Kevin Mulvey the best slider, Deolis Guerra the best changeup and Dylan Owen the best control. They littered the above top ten with those names, too. Seems like they had a hard time predicting future major league pitchers, at least when it came to those in the Mets' system. That's okay, it's a tough business.
As researcher Tom Tango noted on his blog for The Book, it would be nice to know how Baseball America (and other scouting-driven analysts) would do against a number-based system.
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Well, as crappy as 2008, 2009, and 2010 were,
we could’ve had that, right?
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by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Nov 24, 2010 2:09 PM EST reply actions
yes. Omar made a lot of trades
to ensure not having that lineup (not that I’m against the Johan trade, or anything). just worth noting that all those guys departed via. trade.
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by feslenraster on Nov 25, 2010 9:11 AM EST up reply actions
At that time, who were the Mets best pitching prospects? Even then, it doesn't look like there were many upside arms.
Our lack of MI prospects also goes a long way back.
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Just out of curiosity
who WAS in the Mets system at the time that’s currently a Major Leaguer? Anyone? Was Niese around yet? I guess Murphy and Evans?
It’s not like BB-America had much to work with. Not sure you can blame them for whiffing when really it was the Mets who whiffed.
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Niese, Murphy and Evans?
yeah that’s about it
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Didn't
they draft Duda and Gee that year…?
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WTF is a Greg Veloz?
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by Dandy Salderson on Nov 24, 2010 3:11 PM EST reply actions
He was traded to the Nats for Anderson Hernandez in 2009.
by BigBoyJacobs on Nov 24, 2010 3:24 PM EST up reply actions
...
Hooray!
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by Steve Schreiber on Nov 25, 2010 11:55 AM EST up reply actions
Sadly, I was more excited about that prospect class then than I am about this one now
I used to be so optimistic.
All I'll say is this
Minor league evaluation is very hard. I don’t often agree with BA, but I don’t blame them for the lineup (which is more a fun exercise than true analysis) or their list of who had the best curveball, the best fastball, etc. You know who had the best curve ball of any Met I’ve seen in the last 15 years or so? Off the top of my head, I’ll say Dave Mlicki. Great round-house curve, tight, threw it at a nice velocity, great break. Really a great curve ball. Problem? Didn’t matter if he had a great curve, ‘cause pitching is a lot more than that. Knowing who has the best whatever in a system is nice to know, but it almost never predicts success, and I can’t blame Baseball America for simply telling us who had what.
Other criticisms are fair. They love speed demons too much. They fall for big fastballs in a big way. They love projection. That’s why they whiffed on Carlos Gomez, Brant Rustich, and Deolis Guerra. I don’t have a problem with that, because everyone has their perspective, and that’s BA. What bothers me more is when people let BA’s opinions color their own too much.
Baseball America uses obscure concepts
Like reason, potential, and talent. Silly rabbit.
"The Mets have shown me more ways to lose than I even know existed" -Casey Stengel
Comparing Mets' prospects to Twins' prospects...
…is depressing indeed.
by BurleighGrimes on Nov 24, 2010 5:33 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I don't see the big deal here
BA rated Rustich, Humber, & co. as number one in specific categories, but it doesn’t mean that they’re actually good at these things. It’s a list that’s relative to the others in the system, which was notoriously mediocre. Even if BA included players who have made it to the big leagues in the past few years (like Nick Evans) they still would be wrong because Evans doesn’t start.
If you could prove to us who BA should have actually put in these projections, then maybe I could see your point about BA whiffing. BA didn’t “whiff” because the prospects didn’t pan out—they didn’t have much to work with.
Trying to believe is my full-time occupation.
this
based on who was in the system, what better list could they have compiled.
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Santonio Holmes: you don't need open field moves when you've got getting away from the cops speed.
Niese
should have been higher. He was a young lefty striking out a batter per inning… but he didn’t have Rustich’s fastball, I guess.
It is tough though, and I think the exercise may say more about the development and drafts of the two respective systems more than it says about BA, but I do think some of BA’s faults shine through a little bit.
Just look at what Nelson says, with which I agree: toolsy speed demons and big fastballs get over-rated. Could that describe Carlos Gomez and some of the pitching guys they whiffed on? I think so.
It’s a difficult game to predict on any level, and I usually join the process in Double-A to avoid the toughest predictions in baseball, so I’m not coming from an area of expertise on this. I approached it as more of a thought exercise.
Right, Niese had a very high K rate
but it’s not like he didn’t make the list. Yeah, he could have been put at #4, but I think you’re pulling hairs.
You’re absolutely right—predicting a Major League player’s value is very difficult for minor leaguer. In retrospect, BA did fall in love too much with tools and hard fastballs.
But if you’re going to assert that BA did their list wrong, then what would your list have been instead? What players would you have substituted for Kunz and the rest?
Trying to believe is my full-time occupation.
Knowing Mets management
I think they could have guessed that GMJ, Frenchy, and a few others would be with us at the beginning of the season.
It's a triumph of number crunching over the human spirit...aaaaaand, it’s about time. -- Play-by-Play Announcer, The Simpsons.
by MookieTheCat on Nov 24, 2010 6:36 PM EST up reply actions

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