Mike Piazza: Met or Dodger?
The other day, I was arguing with a friend about Mike Piazza's impending 2013 Hall of Fame enshrinement, and whether or not the his plaque will depict Piazza wearing a Mets hat, or a Dodgers hat (the three other teams he's played for, the Florida Marlins, the San Diego Padres, and the Oakland A's, are negligible in this debate). I could have sworn, in the past, that I made a big list compiling his accomplishments with both Los Angeles and New York, but apparently it was in a normal comment that has long since vanished into the ethereal archives of AA somewhere. No matter, though, since making a Fanpost gives me the opportunity to combine the topic with some great MS Paintz work.
Until 2001, the Baseball Hall of Fame deferred to the wishes of each player, in selecting the team that their cap represented on their plaque. This is why Frank Robinson is enshrined wearing an Orioles cap, despite having played on the Cincinnati Reds for longer, and having accomplished more personal and team accomplishments there, why Carlton Fisk is enshrined wearing a Red Sox cap, despite having a longer tenure with the White Sox, and having better numbers with the White Sox, and why Dave Winfield is enshrined wearing a Padres cap, because of the very public problems between himself and Yankee owner George Steinbrenner. The courtesy was changed when, as some media reports claimed, teams were offering former players compensation in some way for choosing to represent their team in Cooperstown. Wade Boggs, though he has denied the reports, supposedly was requested by the Tampa Bay Devil Rays to represent them in the Hall of Fame, in exchange for compensation. Now, though the Hall of Fame considers the wishes of the player, they alone determine what cap a player wears, based on the statistics the player put up with each team, their length of tenure with each team, any championships or awards won by the player with each team, their roles on each team, and other related factors. This is why, though Gary Carter requested to be enshrined in the Hall of Fame as a Met, he was enshrined as a Montreal Expo, and why Andre Dawson was enshrined as an Expo, despite publicly making it known that he wanted to be enshrined as a Chicago Cub.
After the jump, we'll analyze Piazza's career with the Mets and the Dodgers...
Case for Being Enshrined as a Dodger
Mike Piazza broke into the Major Leagues with the Dodgers, and won the Rookie of the Year Award in 1993, hitting a remarkable .318/.370/.561, slugging 35 home runs, throwing out a career high 35% of baserunners who attempted to steal against him, and amassing a phenomenal 7.6 WAR (Fangraphs), the second highest total of his 16-year career. Including 1993, the next five years would Mike Piazza elected to the All-Star Game, as well as winning the Silver Slugger Award at the catcher position. From 1995 to 1997, Piazza finished within the Top 5 in MVP ballots all three years, and was considered the second best player in the National League twice (1996 and 1997). Piazza's 1997 was his most valuable, as he hit .362/.431/.638, with 40 home runs and a 28% success percentage in throwing baserunners out.
Case for Being Enshrined as a Met
While with New York, Piazza was elected to seven All-Star games, and was a perennial MVP candidate, with him placing third for his 2000 stats, a year where he hit a gaudy .324/.398/.614, with 38 home runs. Piazza won five consecutive Silver Slugger Awards at the catcher position while with the Mets between 1998 and 2002. In 1999 and 2000, Piazza led the Mets, as the ‘heart and soul' of the team, to the playoffs (and in 2000, the World Series), and in 1998 and 2001, the Mets were contenders until the end of the season because of Piazza's presence in the Mets batting order- a line-up fairly devoid of "big bats" of the caliber of Piazza.
Looking at the Numbers and the Extraneous Stuff
Mike Piazza played for the Mets for eight seasons, as opposed to playing with the Dodgers for seven. While he had his best individual seasons with the Dodgers, he ultimately put up better numbers with the Mets in terms of total accumulation:
While with the Dodgers, Piazza didn't particularly accomplish much asides for individual awards. The Dodgers made the playoffs in 1995 and 1996 (and probably would have in the strike-shortened 1994 season), but were swept in three games both times. Piazza himself didn't particularly stand out, batting .257/.274/.400, with 1 HR and 3 RBI in the postseason. While with the Mets, Piazza made the postseason two times as well, in 1999 and 2000, but hit .242/.301/.458, with 5 HR and 12 RBI, with most of those home runs and runs batted in coming in his titanic 2000 playoff, the one in which he was "let out of the cage", as John Sterns put so eloquently.
In terms of iconic images, I think Piazza's moustache with the Dodgers was the biggest thing he had going. With the Mets, it was a different story. While I might be tempted to say him being the monster that was "let out of the cage" was his defining image as a Met, the events of September 2001 change that. On September 21st, at Shea Stadium, with the Mets trailing behind the Atlanta Braves in a series that had possible playoff implications, Mike Piazza hit a home run off of Steve Karsey while the Mets were trailing by a run in the bottom of the 8th inning that put New York ahead (a game that it would eventually win). More important than the actual runs that it scored, the moment symbolized a grieving New York pulling itself up, dusting off the literal and metaphorical ashes it was covered with, and getting back to business- I still get chills every time I see the clip, and it's been almost ten years now. According to various countdowns and polls as much as ten years later, the moment is cited as one of the most iconic moments in baseball history- indeed, it is on the list of MLB.com's "Baseball's Best Moments.
According to the news reports I could gather, when Piazza returned to Los Angeles for the first time after being traded to the Marlins, and then to the Mets days later, he received a warm welcome back by the 52,154 Dodger fans (of which, some percentage actually arrived at the game in time to see Piazza's first at-bat). Mike Piazza's return to Shea Stadium defies words, however. I had the honor of attending that game live, and it was something to behold. Never have I seen such an outpouring of support and love for a player, let alone a player who was on the opposing team. The second game of that series, where Piazza hit two home runs off of Pedro Martinez, he got a curtain call, something I've never seen before in my years (admittedly, not too long) of watching baseball, a player on the opposing team getting a curtain call after hitting home runs. If you weren't there, I do not think any words, pictures, or videos really capture the raw emotion that emanated from the stands towards Piazza.
According to Mike himself, "The bulk of my career was with the Mets, and after going through the trade, then the drama of 9/11...I'll never forget my Dodger days. But my time with the Mets is what I'll remember most about my career." While his individual numbers and value was higher during his time with the Dodgers, Mike spent the majority of time as a Major League baseball player as a Met. He accomplished numerous things, and tied numerous records while wearing a Mets jersey. His name has come to be associated with the Mets organization. While many Mets fans are seemingly on the fence, as to whether or not Mike Piazza will be inducted into the Hall of Fame as a Met or a Dodger, I think it is fairly clear:
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not even a question
1 vote is all it takes and you know it..
by Wright of passage on Dec 12, 2010 12:47 AM EST reply actions
What does this mean?
Players are no longer able to choose their own HOF cap thanks to the Dave Winfield fiasco. If players could choose their cap then Gary Carter would have been enshrined as a Met.
Wasn't it Wade Boggs going in as a Devil Ray that caused the rule change?
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
Yeah.
It changed in 2001 because some newspapers reported that Wade Boggs’ contract with Tampa Bay said that he was supposed to wear their hat in the Hall (if he was elected, which was a pretty near lock at the time). Dave Winfield, though, his choice of wearing a Padres hat, when he spent more time as a Yankee, and did more things as a Yankee, because of his feud with George Steinbrenner, I consider that a little shady, too.
I’m happy it’s the HoF that selected the depicted caps, and not the players, though. Reggie Jackson should be an A, Nolan Ryan should be an Astro, and a few others I can’t think of…
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 12, 2010 6:13 PM EST up reply actions
They should make it like football
where you don’t have to choose.
Just keep coming and we'll find a way to win, because the opportunity is there.
The opportunity is there.
Coach Coughlin
How does football do it?
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 12, 2010 7:50 PM EST up reply actions
Probably without logos,
since football helmets have the logo on the side.
I am willing to wait to build a world class franchise (h/t to millsy)
by BobbyV_Incognito on Dec 12, 2010 7:56 PM EST up reply actions
I cannot say I like that.
At all.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 13, 2010 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
me neither
I love the hats @ Cooperstown, I just wish we had more guys wearing ours haha.
Also, is it just me or does the bust closest to the camera on the middle shelf look a lot like Peyton Manning?
2009 Did Not Happen
Kinda looks like the heads in glass from Futurama, frankly.
I keep expecting to see Nixon.
It's a triumph of number crunching over the human spirit...aaaaaand, it’s about time. -- Play-by-Play Announcer, The Simpsons.
by MookieTheCat on Dec 13, 2010 5:26 PM EST up reply actions
The Baseball Hall of Fame
really needs to make more of an effort to get Ted Williams’ head…
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 13, 2010 11:18 PM EST up reply actions
Well there's the coolness factor in seeing the hats
But really, this are Hall of Famers. If you’re going to see the Hall of Fame you’ll know for the most part which teams the player gave his heart and soul for and which ones he was just a footnote on.
Just keep coming and we'll find a way to win, because the opportunity is there.
The opportunity is there.
Coach Coughlin
not really
I mean, there’s a LOT of Hall of Famers, the vast majority of whom played before I was born. I’m a baseball history freak and there’s still guys in the hall I’m only vaguely familiar with. Can you, off the top of your head, tell me what team Al Simmons or Rabbit Maranville had their most success with?
2009 Did Not Happen
Off the top of my head,
the Philadelphia A’s and the Boston Braves, respectively. I think.
I am willing to wait to build a world class franchise (h/t to millsy)
by BobbyV_Incognito on Dec 14, 2010 11:58 PM EST up reply actions
I'd obviously like to see him go in as a Met
But it’s normal to have that fear that he won’t. After all, the he WAS a better player as a Dodger, and the stats he leads in as a Met are stats of accumulation. He didn’t hit over .300 with the Mets after 2001, only drove in over 100 in ‘99 and ’00, and didn’t hit over 20 homers in any of this last three years as a Met. In fact, out of a seven year contract, he was underwhelming for three of them.
But at the end of the day, most people remember him as a Met (not just us here). He was building a HOF career with the Dodgers, but he cemented his legacy in this city as a Met. The playoffs, 9/11, etc are pretty much the cornerstones of his career and the Hall will remember that. Plus its kinda nice to have your only two HOF’ers to be a pitcher and a catcher.
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
True.
His peak with the Dodgers was absolutely phenomenal. An OPS+ of 167 with the Dodgers, but ""only" 132 with the Mets. He was great the first half of his time with the Mets and was so good after his decline he was still making All-Star teams. Even so, he was otherworldly throughout in LA.
“While with New York, Piazza was elected to seven All-Star games, and was a perennial MVP candidate,..”
No, no he wasn’t. He didn’t get a single MVP vote his last four years in New York.
MVP placing:
In LA: 9th, 6th, 4th, 2nd, 2nd
in NY: 7th, 3rd, 13th, 0, 0, 0, 0
Piazza would have taken home the MVP in 1997 if Larry Walker hadn’t been Babe Ruth away from Coors. As much as I’d like to see him go in as a Met, with HOFers I lean towards peak performance. bWAR has Piazza’s four best seasons coming with the Dodgers, and even though he played longer with the Mets his WAR there was lower, 33.4 to 30.5.
He had the oh-so important "cultural impact" which the HoF loves so much as a Met.
If there was any doubt up until the post-9/11 game, what he did that night sealed the deal.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
Yeah the 9/11 game is the only reason I think he's going in as a Met.
In Soviet Russia, Nets Cheer For You!
by NetsMets4Life on Dec 12, 2010 9:52 AM EST up reply actions
No, there's a longevity argument to make.
But the 9/11 game will definitely count.
I am willing to wait to build a world class franchise (h/t to millsy)
by BobbyV_Incognito on Dec 12, 2010 7:58 PM EST up reply actions
the 2000 World Series, also
his Mets teams were better than his Dodgers teams, and the Coop loves them some winners
2009 Did Not Happen
His numbers are gaudier in LA but
he did much much more for the Mets. I think he has to go in as a Met, no doubt about it.
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
by Steve Schreiber on Dec 12, 2010 1:32 AM EST reply actions
I have to disagree with you about the numbers.
granted he did have a lower WAR, but he hit more HRs with the Mets (229 to 168), more RBIs (690 to 526), 7 out of 12 All-Star games with the Mets, 6 out of 10 silver sluggers with the Mets, and he led the Mets to the 2000 World Series. He did spend more time with the Mets, but that is just another reason for him to go in as a Met
But he was with the Mets longer than the Dodgers so
the counting stats are bound to be bigger because of the time factor. Also, take a look at BDMF’s chart…not a big deal but it’s 220 vs 177 in home runs and 655 vs 563 in rbi. Obviously he’s going to have higher counting stats with the Mets since he played 8 seasons in NY and only 6+ in LA. However, my point is that he was technically better in LA…he has a career .966 OPS as a Dodger while as a Met he’s got a .915 OPS. Not a huge difference again but overall, his numbers in NY were affected by his late injuries and his aging.
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
by Steve Schreiber on Dec 12, 2010 11:55 AM EST up reply actions
So what your saying is
he’s going in as a Met anyway?
Yes
I think his overall impact was greater on the Mets. On those Dodger teams, he was important but they also had Eric Karros and Raul Mondesi as power bats in the middle of the lineup so it was a little more balanced. With the Mets, it was basically just him. The Mets had a lot of good players in the lineup like Ventura, Olerud, Alfonzo but none of them were the slugger that Piazza was in the middle of the lineup (maybe with the exception of 1999 Robin Ventura). He was the big run producer in that lineup which was full of some very good tablesetter types.
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
by Steve Schreiber on Dec 12, 2010 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
yeah
He meant so much more to the Mets then he did to LA.
Do you think the Dodger equivlant of AA is arguing this right now?
Probably not.
They won't remember what baseball is in Los Angeles for a few more months.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 12, 2010 6:15 PM EST up reply actions
Huh. When it's this close, shouldn't the HOF defer to Piazza's wishes?
I thought their function was more to avoid egregious occurrences, like Boggs as a Devil Ray…
Don't think the rule change allows for that sort of circumstance.
I think the inductee is allowed to state his preference, but they’re not given final say, even when 2 teams would be a valid choice.
I am willing to wait to build a world class franchise (h/t to millsy)
by BobbyV_Incognito on Dec 13, 2010 6:58 PM EST up reply actions
Mr. V_Incognito
This is america. We have freedom of speech. The inductee is allowed to say what ever he wants. If Mike Piazza wanted to go in as a Marlin, he could say so. ;)
He did have all those triples...
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 13, 2010 11:24 PM EST up reply actions
I believe that Shea Stadium being a pitchers' park affected Piazza's stats, to an extent
In his first 4 years as a Met, Piazza’s stats at home (Shea Stadium) were pretty good, but his away stats were otherworldly, even hitting .377 away in 2000, vs. .269 at home. How can anyone explain that?
On an interesting note, Baseball-Reference lists two Mike Piazzas, one of them being a Minor Leaguer who happened to be born in Port St. Lucie.
(Your ad here)
All of Piazza's parks affected his stats
Take a look at this article.
Dodger Stadium is a pretty pitcher friendly park, too.
Basically the same as Shea.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 12, 2010 6:18 PM EST up reply actions
I think we should protest that silly rule the players can't chose for themselves
which team they go in as. Pizza boy should be a Met HOFER, the Mets don’t have many in there. but this is a home-town biased opinion.
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
"Is definitely, definitely not gay."
funny.
Carter, hand me my thinking grenades!
I'd think he'd go in as a Met unless things change greatly in the next 3 years
Counting stats seem to matter much more to the hall than rate stats, and I can’t see any case that Piazza’s defense would be considered a balance shifter. His extra time here led virtually all of his counting stats to be greater in NY than LA, and his only WS appearance was here as well as the post 9/11 HR likley being the most memorable moment of his career.
by Stephen Schmidt on Dec 12, 2010 3:54 PM EST reply actions
My heart says
he should go in as a Met, but I think he’ll be enshrined as a Dodger.
What's that about?
Wait, where's the case for him to be enshrined as a Marlin?
5 games, 5 hits, 1 triple. I like those numbers
Extend those stats out 162 games, and Babe Ruth is probably marveled.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 12, 2010 6:19 PM EST up reply actions
I'm sure that'd be a large enough sample size for Jerry Manuel's liking!
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
by Steve Schreiber on Dec 12, 2010 6:23 PM EST up reply actions
Am I gonna get
the 90% or the 10%?
What's that about?
by Brian. on Dec 12, 2010 7:15 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
8 years to 6 years
he was a Met longer, so he should go as a Met. You could argue that he had more consistent numbers with the Dodgers, but really his numbers got screwed up with teh 1B attempt, the injury and the poor seasons after.
that experiment shortened his career, I say he had a few more year as a good hitting catcher who could throw out a runner if he didn’t play 1B. I also say that he called a good game, if you look at the team ERA when he was behind the plate compared to when he was out with an injury, there was a big difference.
Any task BIG or small, Do it well or not at all
his own words
"The bulk of my career was with the Mets," he said, "and after going through the trade, then the drama of 9/11. I’ll never forget my Dodger days. But my time with the Mets is what I’ll remember most about my career."
yeah all signs points to him wearing a mets hat in HOF
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/09/sports/baseball/09piazza.html
Gang green nation!
fire schotty and lets go get a goddamn snack!
here not good enough you say what about this go to the retirement section on may 2010
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Piazza
On May 8, 2010 while receiving an award Piazza said to reporters that if he got into the Hall of Fame he would like to be inducted as a Met
Gang green nation!
fire schotty and lets go get a goddamn snack!
It doesn't matter what a player wants or doesn't want.
The decision is not in their hands.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 13, 2010 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
that's not entirely true
the Hall of Fame does take personal wishes into consideration, and in a case like Piazza’s where it’s fairly close, I think that will sway their decision. This isn’t like Greg Maddux saying he wants to go in as a Dodger or something.
2009 Did Not Happen
Duh...
Everybody knows Maddux should go in as a Padre!
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
by Steve Schreiber on Dec 13, 2010 2:27 PM EST up reply actions
He should go in as a Peoria Chief
"The Mets are gonna be amazing!" - Casey Stengel
by Russ on Dec 13, 2010 3:15 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
...
This
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
by Steve Schreiber on Dec 13, 2010 7:28 PM EST up reply actions
Holding hands with fellow
True Yankee© Roger Clemens.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 13, 2010 11:22 PM EST up reply actions
no brainer who do you think .
he done most of his great stats with the mets and played 1 more season with the mets then he did with the dodgers . or if you ask the wilpons they will say the dodgers or some of theses brainless morons that blog on mets sites.
lohaus #54
"some of theses brainless morons that blog on mets sites."
This is such a case of the pot calling the kettle black, I can’t help but point it out.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 13, 2010 11:24 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
LULZ.
Chamption of the R.A. Dickey Face contest and "Cromulent Photoshopper Extraordinaire" of Amazin' Avenue!
by Steve Schreiber on Dec 14, 2010 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
lohaus#54
lohaus#54
"The lesson behind Moneyball is that if you are clever in your use of resources, you can gain power beyond your station. It is not, never has been, and never will be, that 'computer models' should take over the world." - Graham
by Thomas Wachtel on Dec 15, 2010 7:57 AM EST up reply actions

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