Potential Mets Fifth Starters - Freddy Garcia, Chris Young, and Jeff Francis: What Do They Throw?
So, the word is that the Mets are looking to sign one of three pitchers to be the #5 starter to start the season. None of these pitchers have had particularly great results recently, but one thing I haven't seen discussed is: what pitches do each of these guys throw, and how good/bad/okay do the pitches look in terms of movement or velocity?
So, in this post, I'm going to take a quick look at these three pitchers' repertoires and show what they throw:
Chris Young:
Figure 1: Graph of the movement of Chris Young's pitches this year.
To Read:
Vertical Movement: the amount of inches the ball drops/"rises" as compared to how we would expect gravity to make a pitch drop. So a fastball with Positive 10 Vertical Movement "RISES" 10 inches more than it should if gravity was the only force acting on it and a curveball with -10 Vertical Movement drops 10 inches more than a pitch thrown that is just acted on by gravity.
Horizontal Movement: The graph is from the view of a catcher or umpire behind home plate. So a pitch that's on the left side of the graph (and has "negative horizontal movement") moves in on righties and away from lefties. A pitch that's on the right side of the graph moves in on lefties and away from righties.
Legend for this Graph and All Subsequent Graphs:
Fastballs = Red Dots
Change Ups = Yellow Dots
Sliders = Blue Dots
Curve Balls = Purple Dots
| Pitch Type | Number Thrown | Average MPH | Average Horizontal Movement | Average Vertical Movement |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Change-Up | 2 | 76.85 | -7.06 | +6.48 |
| Curveball | 1 | 66.00 | -1.46 | -8.48 |
| Fastball | 238 | 84.63 | -3.034 | +11.30 |
| Slider | 68 | 74.89 | +1.18 | +1. |
Table 1: The Average Numbers on each of the pitches Chris Young threw in 2010.
Chris Young in 2010 threw basically only the fastball and slider, though he did throw two changeups and a curveball for us to get a look at the pitches. The fastball, not even averaging 85MPH, doesn't have amazing movement either: it's vertical movement basically means the ball stays high (resulting in him being the extreme fly ball pitcher he is), while the horizontal movement basically seems to make it a straight-like pitch...it doesn't tail or cut.
His other main pitch, the slider, isn't great either. There's not great horizontal or vertical movement, and the pitch is slow for a slider (not even 75MPH on average). Once again, not so great.
Finally neither his rarely seen this year changeup or curveball are particularly great. The curveball has a decent 12-6 movement (9 inches more sink than what we'd expect from gravity), but is once again on the slow-end of things. The changeup basically appears similar-in-movement to the fastball, so the pitch might be a serviceable weapon against opposite-handed batters, but not great.
It's been said that Chris Young doesn't have anything left in the tank. This look at him seems to agree with that assessment. Throwing him out there every 5 days might be a disaster.

Figure 2: Graph of the movement of Jeff Francis' pitches this year.
To Read:
Vertical Movement: the amount of inches the ball drops/"rises" as compared to how we would expect gravity to make a pitch drop. So a fastball with Positive 10 Vertical Movement "RISES" 10 inches more than it should if gravity was the only force acting on it and a curveball with -10 Vertical Movement drops 10 inches more than a pitch thrown that is just acted on by gravity.
Horizontal Movement: The Graph is from the view of a catcher or umpire behind home plate. So a pitch that's on the left side of the graph (and has "negative horizontal movement") moves in on righties and away from lefties. A pitch that's on the right side of the graph moves in on lefites and away from righties.
Legend for this Graph and All Subsequent Graphs:
Fastballs = Red Dots
Change Ups = Yellow Dots
Curve Balls = Purple Dots
| Pitch Type | Number Thrown | Average MPH | Average Horizontal Movement | Average Vertical Movement |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Change-Up | 407 | 79.08 | +6.10 | +2.25 |
| Curveball | 220 | 72.53 | -5.17 | -3.75 |
| Fastball | 1021 | 87.11 | +8.33 | +6.50 |
Jeff Francis threw basically 3 pitches last year (he could have more than one fastball, but I didn't see one with a quick look, so it's not too worth noting). Francis's fastball averages 87MPH, which while not fast is at least somewhat acceptable for a primary pitch. The pitch is probably a two-seam fastball as it has decent tailing action and okay sink. Basically his pitch is a slower Mike Pelfrey fastball.
He also has a changeup and a curveball. The curveball has almost slider-like movement (it only sinks 3.75 inches more than the pitch would due to gravity), but still isn't fast enough to justify such poor movement. This is almost certainly Francis' worst pitch. The changeup is, like the fastball, at least a serviceable pitch. It has good sink compared to the fastball (it drops an additional 4.25 inches), while having an okay velocity of 79MPH.
All in all, Francis has two okay pitches and one poor pitch. For a fifth starter, that's not a terrible balance. It's certainly better than what we'd get with Chris Young.
Figure 3: Graph of the movement of Freddy Garcia's pitches this year.
To Read:
Vertical Movement: the amount of inches the ball drops/"rises" as compared to how we would expect gravity to make a pitch drop. So a Fastball with Positive 10 Vertical Movement "RISES" 10 inches more than it should if gravity was the only force acting on it and a curveball with -10 Vertical Movement drops 10 inches more than a pitch thrown that is just acted on by gravity.
Horizontal Movement: The Graph is from the view of a catcher or umpire behind home plate. So a pitch that's on the left side of the graph (and has "negative horizontal movement") moves in on righties and away from lefties. A pitch that's on the right side of the graph moves in on lefites and away from righties.
Legend for this Graph and All Subsequent Graphs:
Four-Seam Fastballs = Red Dots
Two-Seam Fastballs = Orange Dots
Change Ups/Split-Finger-Fastballs = Yellow Dots
Sliders = Blue Dots
Curve Balls = Purple Dots
| Pitch Type | Number Thrown | Average MPH | Average Horizontal Movement | Average Vertical Movement |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Change-Up/Split-Finger Fastball |
837 | 80.50 | -6.63 | +6.38 |
| Curveball | 111 | 70.17 | +5.13 | -4.92 |
| Four-Seam |
322 | 87.50 | -4.86 | +10.70 |
| Two-Seam | 411 | 87.83 | -7.48 | +9.99 |
| Slider | 752 | 79.76 | +1.33 | +3.20 |
Table 3: The Average Numbers on each of the pitches Freddy Garcia threw in 2010.
Wow that's a mess of a graph in Figure 3. FIVE Pitches! And believe it or not, that's actually wrong as Garcia really throws 6 pitches: a four-seam fastball, a two-seam fastball, a changeup, a splitter, a slider, and a curveball. On the graph and in the table, the changeup and the splitter are combined because I was doing this in a short amount of time, and it's difficult to separate the two. So ignore the numbers in the table for the change/splitter, and just read what I'm writing in the next few paragraphs.
Garcia is a very odd pitcher in that while he has two fastballs, neither of them is his primary pitch and in fact, his two fastballs account for less than a third of Garcia's total pitches. So having a poor fastball won't necessarily harm Garcia as much as it would the other two guys talked about for the fifth starter spot.
Well, does Garcia have a bad fastball? Well his four-seamer is not a good pitch: it basically is like a faster version of Chris Young's fastball in that it doesn't have good tailing or cutting action and has a vertical movement that keeps the ball up. Of course, the extra 3 miles per hour should help a decent amount. Garcia's two-seam fastball is basically the same as the four-seam fastball except that it has a decent amount of tailing action (it tails 7.48 inches in on right-handed batters). So the two-seam fastball is at least a serviceable pitch, but the four-seam fastball is substandard. Still, as I said above, this doesn't matter for Garcia anywhere near as much as it does with the other guys, because he uses the fastball so infrequently.
Garcia then throws a changeup and a splitter (also known as a split-finger fastball). The changeup seems to have similar movement to the two-seam fastball (maybe a little more sink) while coming in at 80MPH. The splitter appears to have similar horizontal movement to the four-seam fastball but a bit more sink.
Garcia finally throws two breaking balls: a slider which he throws very frequently, almost 1/3 of the time, and a curveball (thrown extremely infrequently). The slider has decent velocity (79.76MPH on average), though it's movement isn't great. Still, in comparison to Chris Young's slider, Garcia's has greater movement relative to his fastball, and the pitch is probably at least serviceable. Garcia's curveball has more of slurve-like movement and probably isn't too effective, but he rarely uses the pitch (he uses it less than 5% of the time), so it's probably not a big deal.
-----------------------
CONCLUSION:
Just looking at the pitches of each pitcher, without looking at their results, what we see is a trio of not great-looking pitchers. However, Chris Young appears clearly worse than the rest. Unless the Mets have seen clear improvements in Young's pitch velocity and movement, they really shouldn't be considering signing him unless they have no other option.
As for Francis vs. Garcia, I'd have to look at the results (which I haven't). Garcia intrigues me more simply because of his large repertoire and odd non-reliance upon the fastball. But really either will do an okay job at holding down the #5 spot for next year. Just don't expect too much from either of them.
This FanPost was contributed by a member of the community and was not subject to any vetting or approval process. It does not necessarily reflect the opinions, reasoning skills, or attention to grammar and usage rules held by the editors of this site.
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Great breakdown of stuff (as always)
I’m partial towards Jeff Francis for a few reasons:
(1) He’s left-handed.
(2) Looking at the traditional stats, Francis’ numbers were less impressive than Garcia’s, meaning he’d be cheaper (by however much), most likely.
(3) Francis is only a few years (and an injury) removed from putting up very good seasons (2007 was his best year- and the last time he was relatively good). Garcia, the last time he had nice success was 2006, and since then, he’s been all over the place, in terms of performance.
(4) He’s a few years younger, for whatever that’s worth.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 23, 2010 1:37 AM EST reply actions
I agree Francis is superior to Garcia
But I think that’ll be obvious to everyone else too… I expect Francis will be significantly more expensive and maybe command a multiple year deal, regardless of last year’s superficial stats.
by Brian Mangan on Dec 23, 2010 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with both of you
Francis seems likely to be better and more expensive. The Mets should still sign him. He’s not going to break the bank, and the added rotation depth is well worth it. Hell, if I were Sandy I might sign Francis to a 2/3-year major-league deal and offer Young a minor-league contract too, just in case he’s got anything left. It still seems possible that whatever injury or mechanical problem’s been causing Young’s downturn is fixable, and he’s not going to get a lot of money from anyone this year.
A good point, not giving much creedence to small sample sizes over general sense and "gut feeling" on both of their future prospects in the Majors
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 23, 2010 11:16 PM EST up reply actions
I've seriously been a Jeff Francis fan
Since 2007, and I think he’s gotten a bit too much praise given his WAR last season. He came back from serious labrum surgery and was on a very strict pitch count after he returned. I remember certain starts where he’d come out after 71 pitches or something ridiculously low. After his shoulder tired in August, he was really ineffective in late September. I’d be very weary of a multi-year deal like some are saying. He’s a definite question mark.
by MattT516 on Dec 24, 2010 3:34 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
And that doesn't mean
He doesn’t deserve an incentive-laden deal in any way. His pitching plays well into Citi Field, and I’d definitely take him over an always-fragile Chris Young. I’m just saying multiple years and millions of guaranteed money is too much of a risk.
by MattT516 on Dec 24, 2010 3:36 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Anything more than a one-year deal, and I'd think it a bad contract
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 26, 2010 8:24 PM EST up reply actions
I put it Francis, Young then Garcia
I think Francis was betetr than the otehrs whenhe was good first off, and he threw at the end of last season, and pitched decent against the Mets the one time I saw him pitch
Any task BIG or small, Do it well or not at all
by Rickfansince76 on Dec 23, 2010 2:14 PM EST up reply actions
oh and excellent post
love the way it is broken down with the dots, and then the speeds charted
Any task BIG or small, Do it well or not at all
I don't mind them bringing in Young on a minor league deal
He looks awfully like Maine, so I’m guessing Sandy and co think they know something being ex Padre employees. If we offer him a guaranteed spot than I’d be stunned.
Francis is the only guy that I think I’d rather have than Gee pitching. He’s lefty and that should help in the NL East at least.
who are your staring 5
if you sign Francis it gives you Dickey, Pelfrey, Neise, and Francis if you do not use Gee who is #5
Any task BIG or small, Do it well or not at all
by Rickfansince76 on Dec 26, 2010 9:43 AM EST up reply actions
Maybe Misch.
I like Gee, but I’d kind of rather see him start in AAA, and let Misch or someone else get the #5 starter job, mostly just for economic reasons.
I am willing to wait to build a world class franchise (h/t to millsy)
by BobbyV_Incognito on Dec 26, 2010 11:03 AM EST up reply actions
I was hoping we actually get a #4 starter who is decent and healthy.
And that this Chris Young, Garcia type talk is just emergency guys coming in to compete with Gee.
I'd be pretty happy adding any 2 of them to the rotation
I just hope that when we’re out of it at the deadline, guys like Cohoon get a shot and these guys are traded for whatever they can fetch
by Stephen Schmidt on Dec 24, 2010 10:36 AM EST reply actions
don't want to see Cohoon until at least ST 2012
he took a bunch of starts to get settled in at AA and I hope he stays at AA and if he looks good after 10 starts maybe bring him up for the rest of the season at AAA. Then regardless of how he does, do not bring him up in Sept…let him get a full off season of rest and get ready if he is ready for ST with the Mets 2012.
Any task BIG or small, Do it well or not at all
by Rickfansince76 on Dec 26, 2010 9:41 AM EST up reply actions
That scenario I see at this point in time
as nothing more than a luxury. If Gee doesn’t pan out and we don’t have a 2 punch combo signed to legitimately fill out the bottom of the rotation ( and this is counting on Johan being effective upon return ) then I don’t see it being out of the realm of possibility for us dipping into the minors for Cohoon if he’s tearing through the minors.
by Wright of passage on Dec 26, 2010 10:05 AM EST up reply actions
For Alderson et al it is a case of 'better the devil you know.'
Young is well known by 2 of the holy trinity and they presumably see something worth taking a gamble on. Either that or Young has some dirt on them.
by ScottfromPeekskill on Dec 24, 2010 2:37 PM EST reply actions
I'd rather take Chris Young and his prosthetically enhanced schnozz
He fits our team better as we’re the modern day MLB equivalent of the Hanson brothers..
by Wright of passage on Dec 24, 2010 5:21 PM EST reply actions
What about a guy like Duscherer
from the A’s? Alderson should know about him. Is he signed by anyone yet? I’d prefer him over these guys. Also, Bonderman is out there too, I think.
Duchscherererererer
was in my original AAOP, but the more I looked at him, and more leery I got about him. He certainly would be intriguing, though. Asides for the anxiety problems that kept him sidelined for all of the 2009 season, he’s also had various injuries that’s kept him out for most of 2007, and about 1/3 of 2008, as well as about 2/3s of 2010.
He did accept, in 2009, a one-year contract set at $2 million dollars, plus incentives, from the A’s, so he certainly might be agreeable to signing an incentive laden contract this off-season. If I could be guaranteed that (A) Duchscherer makes 20 or so starts, and (B) He’s willing to sign an incentivized contract for about a million or two, I’d take the gamble. I figure, if he pitches like he did in 2008, or a reasonable facsimile to it (2.54 ERA, 3.69 FIP, 6.04 K/9, 2.16 BB/9, 2.9 WAR in 414.1 IP), you’re getting more than your money’s worth. For that, I’d be willing to “fill in” those ten or so starts he misses with Dillon Gee.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
AA Gamethread Embiggening Record Holder- 453 posts (10/03/10)
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Dec 26, 2010 8:36 PM EST up reply actions
hope Alderson signs Francis, I've always liked him too--picked him for my roto teams every year
except last year, anyway.
happy holidays everyone!
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
I realize it's a completely insane proposition,
but how about we pick up a pitcher that’s good and durable? In the poll I posted, slightly over half of 149 voters project the Mets as currently constructed (therefore not counting whatever additional moves the FO makes at the margins, which we all expect Alderson and Company to be highly adept at) to be a .500 or better ballclub. Given that optimism I’m surprised there isn’t more being posted here encouraging (let alone demanding) ownership to pick up one good pitcher and one good position player and get the team into contention.
By the way, garik, if one of these guys is going to be the 5th starter, who is the 4th starter—Dillon Gee? Also, given that of the first three members of the rotation as of April only one has more than one good season as a starter on his resume, and that Gee is unlikely to be able to go 200 innings in his first try at a full ML season, and that the most durable of the three pitchers you reviewed had, iirc, 104 IP last season, how many starts are you currently projecting for the Mets 6th and worse starters in 2011?
Thanks for the solid review. Much appreciated.
Good analysis
I think they should be looking at Penny( got married recently,maybe this will inspire him to stay in shape to avoid injuries) or Capuano . Either one will sign a 1yr contract,, and a good year will increase their value.
we should bring in garcia just to be pitching coach
have him teach everyone a cutter.
I feel bad for my little brother. He walked in and saw that the score of the Nugs-Magic game was 88-89 and thought it was high scoring.
All he knows is the Nets.
by Maxyboy on Dec 14 2010
2010-2011 New Jersey Nets motto: Try Again. Fail Again. Fail Better.
Wait...whoa, whoa, whoa
hold up! I’ve got something to say.
“Potential Mets Fifth Starters”? By my count we’ve got three so far.
No 1. Pelf
No 2. Dickey (because he’s awesome and stuff. also see below)
No 3. Niece (because this is where he belongs and any higher he might feel the pressure
No 4. ?
No 5. ?
As you see, there are not one, but two question marks.
The candidates:
Dillon Gee
DJ Carrasco
Pat Misch
Perez
Free agent dude(s) (Garcia, Young, Francis, or perhaps, a mystery candidate)
I’m going to pretty much say no to DJ and Ollie, so that leaves three candidates for two spots (unless we sign two free agent SPs): Misch, Gee, and free agent dude.
Free agent dude gets a spot, otherwise he isn’t worth signing, leaving Gee and Misch. Are you going to put Misch/Gee in the No 4. spot over a guy you just spent good money on? I think thats a waste. Thus, this post should be called “Potential Mets Fourth Starters”.
Obama promised me change, and dosh garn’t, I want it!

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