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Around SBN: Sixers Vs. Celtics: Countdown To Game Seven

Jose Reyes v. Barry Larkin

Inspired by a recent story about David Wright, I decided to make a back of the envelope comparison of Jose against the top tier SS talent from the last generation.  For Wright, the clear comp is Mike Schmidt; for Jose I'm going to use Barry Larkin because, like Schmidt, Larkin is considered by most to be a Top 10 All-Time talent at his position, as well as a clear-cut HOFer.  Also they have that similar all-around athletic game, offensively and defensively, similar very high ceilings and he's obviously got the requisite amount of star power.

So the question remains, how does Jose Reyes stack up against Barry Larkin at this point in his career?

Star-divide

 Well there's 2 ways to look at it.  First, we can see what each had done by age 26:

4372057484_73cf91a867_medium4372057550_7fe607ba17_medium 

Reyes looks pretty damn good next to a future HOFer, and in many facets better, at the same age.  However, the counting stats are kind of thrown off since Larkin was a college product thus had less games played to this point.  Therefore, it's probably prudent to also evaluate them by looking at what each had done through his first 7 major league seasons:

4372057606_18ed4dd0e8_medium4372057812_3f15583254_medium

This time games, PA's and AB's are much more balanced and again, Jose does pretty well for himself especially when you consider that at the end of this period Jose is still 2 years younger than Larkin.  It's actually pretty remarkable how similar their lines look.  Probably the most glaring lead Larkin has (not including HBP, which is pretty strange) is in RBI's, but that is due mostly to Larkin batting 3rd, and in OPS vs. the league (OPS+) but that shouldn't surprise anyone; in the late 80's and mid 90's the shortstop was a glorified pitcher at the plate.  For reference, here's the rise in shortstop OPS from then to now:

                                                   (click to embiggen)

Offense has most definitely improved by leaps and bounds from the SS position in the last 20 or so years so I wouldn't put too much weight into those OPS+ figures.  You do have to give Larkin credit that he dominated the field but consider this, during Larkin's career, the average shortstop hit just .256/.317/.361 giving you a .678 OPS.  In 2009 there were 21 regular shortstops with a higher OPS and 20 with a higher batting average.  So obviously with the shift towards offense in today's game it isn't quite as easy to dominate the position as it was in Barry Larkin's day.  

And to Jose's credit, he definitely is not one of those shortstops in today's game who sacrifices defense for power as he has always been a plus defender (~+5 avg. UZR in the past 4 years).  Obviously the same defensive metrics are not available for Larkin but as a 3-time GG winner, he seems to have that similar 'good (sometimes very good) but not great' defensive reputation as Jose.  So I don't see much distinction between them here.

              ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In closing, what I'm getting at here is that Omar better wake up and trade this cancer before he deludes the team any further.  If Reyes doesn't get his immature act together, stop dancing and performing handshakes he might only be the 11th best SS of all time.  Embarrassing.  Certainly not the kind of player Buster Olney would define as a star, definitely not one John Harper considers one of the best in the game and obviously no Jimmy Rollins.  And worse, if we've learned anything from Barry Larkin it might even take Reyes 'til his 2nd (or even 3rd!) ballot to reach the HOF.  Disgraceful.  </rant>  But seriously, health-willing, Reyes could easily give David Wright a run for his money in the 'Greatest Met not named Seaver' sweepstakes and unfortunately too many people lose sight of that.  Barring catastrophic injury or his skills leaving him extremely early, Jose should absolutely be a career Met.

 

UPDATE:  Just stumbled across this interesting little statistical note, in Larkin's entire 19 year career he topped 255 total bases just twice, both after age 32.  Reyes has already done it 4 times by age 26.  It's certainly cherry-picking to a degree but I just couldn't help myself.

This FanPost was contributed by a member of the community and was not subject to any vetting or approval process. It does not necessarily reflect the opinions, reasoning skills, or attention to grammar and usage rules held by the editors of this site.

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That's a really nice comp,

if he can continue on his pace, he might be HOF-bound with Wright & Beltran someday.
As to your rant, allow to me add on with you & say: to hell with those ridiculous-ass articles.

Coming this April, fun times with Jeff and Gary!

by Brian. on Feb 20, 2010 1:25 AM EST reply actions  

Excellent little piece here

The way people talk about Reyes, it’s as if he isn’t one of the 15 or 20 best players in baseball

by Evan_S on Feb 20, 2010 1:28 AM EST reply actions  

Good article.

Larkin was a MUCH better hitter, though, when you adjust for era. You brought that up, but a 115 versus a 101 OPS+ is a very, very significant difference. I don’t think Larkin is going to have an easy time getting into the HOF, either. He should go in quickly but it will probably take a while.

by SeanSchirmer on Feb 20, 2010 1:56 AM EST reply actions  

I understand you can't just throw out years of data,

but Reyes started at age 20 and wasn’t ready to be in the big leagues yet. Larkin started at 22 and if you take their 22-26 aged seasons, Larkin’s OPS+ is 105 to Reyes’ 104.

by Evan_S on Feb 20, 2010 7:20 AM EST up reply actions  

That's true, but Reyes' best year to date is Larkin's average year as a hitter. That's huge.

I don’t think Reyes can overcome that without turning into a 30 HR a year stud. There’s just no realistic way he can catch Barry as a hitter, or even come close. Since no one is arguing Reyes’ D is better than Barry’s we’re left with Reyes being not nearly as good a hitter, therefore not nearly as good a player. And that’s how good Larkin was: He was significantly better than a helluva ballplayer and possible hall of famer named Jose Reyes.

by SeanSchirmer on Feb 21, 2010 11:37 PM EST up reply actions  

i don't know how huge that is

take for example, the fact that larkin topped 255 total bases only twice in his 19 seasons, both after age 32. reyes has already done it 4 times by age 26.

also, while hitting makes up like 95% of a player’s offensive potential, stolen bases affect it as well and in larkin’s average year he falls nearly 40 sb’s shy of reyes best season (i’m using ’06) which is pretty significant. that may not close the offensive gap but it definitely narrows it.

one more note, larkin at age 26 still hadn’t had a season that tops jose’s best season. now we can only hope that jose ages/develops as well as larkin did but i don’t know if we can automatically say that larkin was a significantly better hitter or even slightly better.

by Rob Castellano on Feb 22, 2010 12:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Point by point,

“i don’t know how huge that is take for example, the fact that larkin topped 255 total bases only twice in his 19 seasons, both after age 32. reyes has already done it 4 times by age 26.”

I call bullshit (in the spirit of enduring friendship, of course :). There’s cherry picking data, then there’s CHERRY PICKING DATA. It’s perfectly true that Larkin topped 255 total bases only twice in his 19 seasons, in part because he was busy accumulating 252 total bases in 1988,
243 bases in 1990,
235 bases in 1991,
242 bases in 1992,
244 bases in 1995, and
245 bases in 1999 in addition to the 271 and 293 bases you referred to.

  • * *

" in larkin’s average year he falls nearly 40 sb’s shy of reyes best season "

Why compare Larkin’s average year with Reyes’ best? Larkin went 379/77. In his best year he went an astounding 51/5 (Reyes best was a less effective 60/15). Reyes is currently at 305/75. Jose would have to go 74 of 76 to match Barry. Barry’s the better basestealer at this point. Reyes will end up with more bases, but he won’t touch Larkin’s percentage.

  • * *

“one more note, larkin at age 26 still hadn’t had a season that tops jose’s best season.” Except that he had. Twice. You’re forgetting to adjust for era. Reyes’ best OPS+ by age 26 is 118. Larkin at age 25 had already put up a 131 OPS+ season. That’s noticeably better. At age 24 Larkin put up a 119 OPS+ season. That’s also better than Reyes’ best.

“i don’t know if we can automatically say that larkin was a significantly better hitter or even slightly better.” Well, I didn’t say it automatically, I looked at the stats that account for the eras the players played in. Larkin was a much better hitter than Reyes, and the only way Reyes can catch him is by putting up a half dozen 130 OPS+ seasons. That’s the average season of Matt Holliday at the plate. I doubt he’ll pull that off.

It’s demonstrable that Larkin was the better basestealer. Jose is excellent. Barry is actually a little better.

By most accounts Larkin was also the better fielder. Fwiw, he has 3 GG, Reyes, none.
Larkin: 12 All-Star games. Reyes: 2
Larkin: 9 Silver Slugger awards. Reyes: 1
Larkin: 1 MVP. Reyes: 1 7th place finish.

Barry’s the better player in every aspect of the game. That’s how good he was.

By the way, in using total bases you’re also failing to adjust for era. Bases are easier to come by in Jose’s era than they were for most of Larkins. If Larkin has any difficulty getting into the HOF it will be because he played the prime of his career before the recent run explosion. That makes his stats look less impressive than they were.

Larkin’s only real weakness was the difficulty he had staying in the lineup. Unfortunately, Reyes may be catching up with him in that regard. Even counting his minor league games in 2003 Reyes played only 134 games. He dropped to around 60 in 2004, then was a stud from 2005 through 2008. And, of course, he fell apaprt in 2009 and only played in 36 games. Larkin’s first seven seasons were similar in total games played but without as much variation.

by SeanSchirmer on Feb 22, 2010 3:33 AM EST up reply actions  

If you take both Larkin's and Reyes' age 22-26 win totals

Reyes comes out with 18.9 WAR to Larkin’s 17.4. And your right, Larkin’s best season through age 26, 1988 with 6.2 WAR, is better than any of Reyes’.

by Evan_S on Feb 22, 2010 4:09 AM EST up reply actions  

No doubt about it, Jose is off to a brilliant start.

I really hope Manuel doesn’t push him, particularly at the start of the year. I’d be sick if a HOF career got seriously derailed by a manager trying to save his job.

by SeanSchirmer on Feb 25, 2010 5:39 PM EST up reply actions  

well that i will admit

its definitely cherrypicking but it just made me feel warm and fuzzy to hear it. if anything it illustrates the similar level these guys perform at, though theres no denying jose’s level has been higher to this point by this measure which is definitely not the best one.

and i’m only comparing larkin’s average year w/ reyes best because thats what you said: ‘Reyes’ best year to date is Larkin’s average year as a hitter.‘ beyond that, the 2 seaons you mention that top reyes best are questionable. the 131 OPS+ season was only 350 pa’s so i didn’t count that because its not a full season. the 119 OPS+ season definitely is right there, almost everything is very close (115 OPS+) except reyes is a little higher in each triple slash category but then crushes him in rbi’s and runs so i gave it to reyes.

all of those awards are meaningless, i mean jimmy rollins has an mvp too. especially since, again you have to look through age 26 where larkin didn’t have an mvp yet, he did have 2 more AS appearances but he also didn’t play w/ hanley. otherwise the votes they received for mvp and ROY are strikingly similar. and if you read up on it, it sounds like those GG’s were more the writers way of making it up to larkin for ozzie smith depriving him all those years than larkin killing it at short.

one more thing, there is NO WAY larkin is the better base stealer. yes his career percentage is better but you once again have to limit this to age 26 because its not fair to just assume reyes won’t get any better. and through age 26, larkin’s success rate was 82.6% vs. reyes 80.1%, pretty close. except at that point reyes had nearly 200 more bases stolen. thats not even a discussion.

by Rob Castellano on Feb 22, 2010 9:33 AM EST up reply actions  

agreed on the stolen bases front

I think there needs to be a sliding scale. A guy who steals 5 bases at a 100% clip isn’t as good a base stealer as someone who steals 100 bases at an 82% clip, obviously.

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Feb 22, 2010 12:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I didn't think OPS+ adjusted for position.

The Mets can’t be so stupid to let him go. I think wins in the playoffs are only cure for Jose criticism.

by EtSuKe on Feb 20, 2010 2:17 AM EST via mobile reply actions  

impossible to compare

I don’t think it is ever fair to compare players of different eras to each other. I am very happy with Reyes but if you compare him to other SS of this era, there are a few performing better than he is.
Reyes has one intangible that makes him stand out, that is his energy. If he can put together a few more solid years than we can start talking about him in a sentence with the hall of fame

by Rickfansince76 on Feb 20, 2010 9:25 AM EST reply actions  

Yeah? Who?

Hanley Ramirez. That’s one.
Troy Tulowitski? Questionable. That’s one-and-a-half.

And that’s it.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Feb 20, 2010 10:20 AM EST up reply actions  

That's clearly 2.

Ramirez and Tulowitzki are both awesome, but there’s no shame in being the 3rd best SS in MLB. Plus Jose is way cooler than them.

by dtro on Feb 20, 2010 5:41 PM EST up reply actions  

eh

thats not what people said when he got sent down while batting .260 with 8 hrs in 2008. but everyone seems to have forgotten/excused that while reyes has been putting up remarkably consistent/excellent lines since breaking into the league yet he’s the one with a rep of inconsistency.

i agree that tulo is really good but it’s not a sure thing that he’s #2 behind hanley by any means and the only reason it’s close for me is jose’s injury.

by Rob Castellano on Feb 20, 2010 5:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Jeter's currently better than Reyes.

I hate it but it’s true. He also gets more babes. I jope Jeter finishes his career with the Royals.

by SeanSchirmer on Feb 22, 2010 3:37 AM EST up reply actions  

That's certainly debateable.

Reyes had one of his best seasons last year, but it’s highly unlikely he repeats it. From 06 to 08, Reyes was clearly the better player. Going forward, even for just the next two or three years, you’d be crazy to take Jeter over Reyes.

by Evan_S on Feb 22, 2010 4:12 AM EST up reply actions  

Lol--hey! I didn't say I was happy about it!

Reyes’ OPS + 2006 to 2009: 115 102 118 100, w 36 games played in 2009
Captain Fistpump’ s OPS+, 2006-2009: 132 121 102 132 150+ games played every year.

WAR, Jose, 2006 to 2009: 5.5, 5.1, 5.9, 0.7
WAR, CFP, 2006 to 2009: 6.3, 3.7, 3.7, 7.4

Reyes was a little better overall from 2006 through 2008, and worse, of course, and seriously injured in 2009. Jeter just had an MVP season. It doesn’t make sense to pick Reyes to be better next year. I don’t know who I’d bet on to be better over two years, and over three years or more I’d go with Reyes.

by SeanSchirmer on Feb 22, 2010 8:19 AM EST up reply actions  

wRC+ projections:

Jeter: 122 CHONE, 120 Marcel, 126 Bill James, 125 Fans – 123.25 average
Reyes: 126, 120, 115, 127 Fans – 122 average

UZR projections:
Jeter: -1.33/150 Steve Sommers, -2/150 Jeff Zimmerman, -0.9 Fans, -10.5 CHONE TZ
Reyes: 2.08/150, 1/150, 2.2, 7.6

Jose>Jeter

by EtSuKe on Feb 22, 2010 10:29 PM EST up reply actions  

(I can't believe I'm defending Jeter, but...)

Jeter’s average season is better than Reye’s best season.
Jeter just put up an MVP caliber season.
Reyes just spent the season on the disabled list.
Jeter has even turned himself into a better fielder than Reyes.

There’s simply no way Jeter isn’t an overwhelming favorite to turn in a better season than Reyes in 2010.

That said, if I could trade them straight up and still get Reyes back in 2011, I wouldn’t do it. Some things are just too ugly to contemplate, like Captain Fistpump in a Mets uniform.

by SeanSchirmer on Feb 23, 2010 9:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Reyes' best season is better than Jeter's average one if you include defense

Jeter hasn’t been averaging 5.9 WAR over his career.

And there is no reason to believe Jeter made himself into a better fielder, one season is a very small sample size, it could have been one lucky season. I’d be more surprised to see Jeter have a another +6 UZR than a -15 UZR this year. If I had to guess though, he’ll probably be between -5 and 0.

Reyes would be lucky to have anything close to the type of career Jeter had, but I see no reason why a healthy 27 year old Reyes can’t put up another 5 win season.

by Evan_S on Feb 23, 2010 12:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Jeter as a Met

Would it (almost) be worth it to see every single one of your Yankee fan friends’ heads explode if that ever happened?

"You know I am only teasing. I love you gals out there -- always have." - Keith Hernandez

by OSUmets on Feb 23, 2010 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Jose is 26.

He put up 5.5, 5.1, an 5.9 WAR before missing last season.
Jeter is 35. He’s put up 3.7, 3.7, and 7.4 WAR the last 3 seasons.
I don’t think Jeter is an overwhelming favorite to put up a better season at all. I would put my money on Jose.

by EtSuKe on Feb 24, 2010 12:50 AM EST up reply actions  

It's pretty close

I would project both around 5 WAR, but if you make me pick, I’m picking Jose every day of the week.

by supermets on Feb 25, 2010 8:32 PM EST up reply actions  

I'll take Reyes over Tulowitzki

Ramirez is the only shortstop who is definitely better than Reyes.

by Evan_S on Feb 20, 2010 6:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Another Larkin

point. He played in some absolutely loaded lineups early in his career and batted 3rd a lot. He also played in a park that was hitters park on turf. Put Reyes in the Riverfront on turf with his speed and he might win the batting title.

by DoctorK16 on Feb 20, 2010 10:18 AM EST reply actions  

Well...

… to be fair, hitting in front of Wright, Beltran, and Delgado— along with Alou in spots— has probably helped Reyes’ runs numbers, too.

by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Feb 20, 2010 4:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Is that a FOX News article talking about propaganda? Really? Come on...

You’re pretty much preaching to the choir. Of the many people that post here, basically, two (maybe less?) don’t like Reyes, but none would deny that he’s better than 9% of other shortstops out there.

The comparison between him and Larkin is really almost mirror-like. That’s crazy. That’s also a very good thing. And, all of that takes into account Reyes has only played four full seasons, with the other ones either being shortened by injury, or rookieness…

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Feb 20, 2010 10:19 AM EST reply actions  

Larkin destroys Reyes in HBP

clearly larkin was more willing to do what it takes to help the team than that slacker reyes. :-P. The comparisons are remarkably similar, I’ll take the second coming of Barry Larkin any day.

by KeithsMoustache on Feb 20, 2010 12:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Awesome!

well put together analysis! I never even thought of comparing Reyes and Larkin. He seems to be on track to better Larkin, nice.

"Wait till Biggus Dickus hears about this!"

by scott from peekskill on Feb 20, 2010 1:07 PM EST reply actions  

I think it'll go like this

“Jeter has 5 rings!!!!”
But in all seriousness, without looking at any numbers between them as of yet, I imagine it’ll be close.

Coming this April, fun times with Jeff and Gary!

by Brian. on Feb 20, 2010 10:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Jeter 1995-2000 (age 26 season)
.322 .394 .468 .862
78 HR 108 SB 122 ops+

Reyes 2003-2009
.286 .337 .435 .772
68 HR 301 SB 101 ops+

Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.

by CasanovaWong on Feb 21, 2010 3:04 AM EST up reply actions  

Yup. Jeter destroys Reyes as a hitter.

Jeter has also managed to maintain his hitting into his mid 30s (career OPS+ of 121), and has even improved as a fielder. I don’t want to say chemistry is involved, but it’s hard to find a precedent for this.

by SeanSchirmer on Feb 22, 2010 3:40 AM EST up reply actions  

chemistry has nothing to do with it

they’ve taken to aggresively repositioning Jeter to put him in better position to make plays with less movement. It has payed off due to good scouting getting him in the proper position more often. His range and glove didn’t get any better, they were just smarter.

by KeithsMoustache on Feb 22, 2010 1:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I hate the Yankees

but god damn do they have a good front office. I know it’s easy when you spend that much money, but they have improved by leaps and bounds over the past 3 years, and it really sucks.

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Feb 22, 2010 1:21 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah they spend a lot, but they're smart too

and they have a pretty good eye for talent, which is why they’ve come back to relevance after a few years where they just bought big name players past their prime and struggled.

by KeithsMoustache on Feb 22, 2010 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Forgetting about the money, they do draft decently (at least, compared to us).

Not that all of the guys that they’ve drafted and brought up in the past two or three years are All-Stars by any stretch of the imagination, but they’ve been able to crank out a bunch of serviceable pitchers, that they either use or trade away for whatever.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Feb 22, 2010 2:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Didn't he also say he had worked with a conditioning coach

and they focused on speeding up his lateral movement?

I’m a little skeptical about Yankee claims that they’ve changed his positioning. Their FO used advanced metrics. They don’t go public with it but I’m sure they’re not kidding themselves that Jeter has been a decent fielder. That being the case why would they have taken a decade to improve his positioning?

by SeanSchirmer on Feb 26, 2010 3:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Chemistry?

You are insinuating he was a Balco client?

"Wait till Biggus Dickus hears about this!"

by scott from peekskill on Feb 25, 2010 11:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Isn't Jose's exuberance

i.e the handshakes, the big smile etc. exactly what everyone praised back in 06 and 07 as what made Jose great? It pisses me off. Shane Victorino is more obnoxious and not nearly as good a player as Reyes yet he’s beloved.

President of the Ramses Barden Fan Club

Fact on Villanova Sports

by Hoyadestroya85 on Feb 20, 2010 10:48 PM EST reply actions  

It pisses you, me, and basically everyone else here off too.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Feb 21, 2010 11:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Jose is ours.....

And Jose wants to be a Met. Too me as old-fashioned a concept as that might seem means a lot to me. I pumped he is feeling great and even starting to see the merit of him in the three hole till Beltran is Beltran (hopefully).

The comparison is merited and awesomely put together and makes me even happier about our left side

by christopherm on Feb 25, 2010 9:06 PM EST reply actions  

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THE NEWS GURUS

Mrmet_small Steve Schreiber

3_small Stephen Schmidt

159714144_040c6c1501_small Pack Bringley

124967042_crop_340x234_small Jeffrey Paternostro