Bay's Leadership Applesauce - Pagan is incumbent, Mets counting on Bay's presence, Mejia is 56th best
by Joe Budd on Feb 24, 2010 10:19 AM EST
in Applesauce
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Meet the Mets
Some sanity coming from Met camp already as Angel Pagan seems to be leading GMJ for the center field spot.
Also some Jason Bay stuff as the new left fielder arrived in camp. All of a sudden we have a leader, unlike Carlos Delgado. I'm glad, but once again, this really seems like a race thing. I guess Canadians are just better leaders.
Speaking of leadership, Francoeur is encouraging David Wright to step up.
Joe Janish thinks that Sandy Koufax is understating the importance of a pitcher's delivery.
As a reminder, the Mets have signed more players from the Japanese leagues than any other team over the last decade.
If you want to see Omir Santos and Jose Reyes ground out and Oliver Perez strike out against the Cubs in virtual format, here you go.
Baseball America has compiled its top 100 prospects with Jennry Mejia topping the Met contingent at #56.
Around MLB
Jimmy Rollins disagrees with Santana's evaluation of the NL East's top pitcher.
Aaron Boone has retired and will join ESPN.
My all-time favorite National Brad Wilkerson has joined the Phillies as an NRI.
Brian Cashman has designated Curtis Granderson as the Yankee center fielder.
Interesting story on the Indians' Shin-Soo Choo's Korean army draft status.
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So . . .
Is Jeff Francoeur trying to be Dub’s version of Bagger Vance, or Dub’s version of Pedro’s midget?
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Feb 24, 2010 10:24 AM EST reply actions
Some sanity coming from Met camp already as Angel Pagan seems to be leading GMJ for the center field spot.
I suppose they have to make it seem like it’s a legit competition but I’m slightly frightened by these ideas that Jacobs and Gmjr have legit shots to win starting jobs. I’m pretty sure I would just give up if that happened, not just on the mets, and not just on sports, but on life.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
I am not lumping Jacobs in with GMJ. I am more comfortable with pagan in center than Murph at first. I like the Jacobs signing. He if finds his NL form after a strained from the start year in the AL with a bad Royals team than it was worth the line. Also Jacobs was a minor league deal and has no real impact. Still have no idea why GMJ is here and agree totally with you on that.
by christopherm on Feb 24, 2010 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
His "NL form" isn't good.
With the Marlins, he hit around .250 (with a fairly low BABIP, though, so that’s something), with an OBP that’s steadily gone down for whatever reason (topping out at .325 and bottoming at .299). He averaged 23 home runs in those years, which is alright, but you’d have to include his defense, which started out bad, and steadily got worse, to the tune of a -13.6 UZR in his last year with the Marlins. Because of his defense, his WAR has never been over 1.0 very much, and dipped into the negatives last season. Murphy, Tatis, Carter, Evans, they’re all being projected to be more valuable than Jacobs, his possible 20 or so home runs included.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Feb 24, 2010 1:25 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah even in his NL form
he was well below average both offensively and defensively. It would be hard for Murphy to be worse, and at least with Murphy/Evans/Carter there some hope of upside. With Jacobs he’s already had years to prove he’s not good enough to start.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
I am not saying Jacobs is going to make a difference. But he has more upside than GMJ. And Murphy has never proven himself to be able to play anywhere. Pagan is a good outfielder. Murphy either figures out first or disappears.
by christopherm on Feb 24, 2010 1:40 PM EST up reply actions
Murphy could possibly be worse
it just doesn’t seem very likely. And I’d wager it’d be almost impossible for some sort of combination of Murphy/Evans/Carter, leverage properly, to not be WAY better. I mean we’re talking about a player in Jacobs who struggles to stay above replacement level, and has never even gotten close to being an average player, even by OPS which discounts his awful defense and overvalues his only usefulness which is slugging, he’s been WELL below the average first basemen.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
No one is projecting Murphy to be worse than Jacobs
Can he be worse? Sure. In theory, anything is possible. A meteor can hit the planet later, starting a cataclysmic chain of events that ends the world, effectively. Murphy, at first base, provides slightly above-average defense (on which getting tutored and more experience can only help), and is aging closer to “his prime”, where he’s going to be, in theory, at his peak, in terms of offensive power. Jacobs, he played something like 15 games at first last year, a position he’s always been piss poor at. He’s turning 30, and is on the down side of that peak now, in terms of power.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Feb 24, 2010 1:48 PM EST up reply actions
Ok, so what's Jason Bay's username?
"Having played in that market it’s all about putting up numbers, regardless of where you are. I find it funny; you got the ‘best shape of my life’ routines. People don’t care if you come in the best shape of your life or not, just show up and produce. It’s all about production."
by Jamesir Bensonmum on Feb 24, 2010 10:57 AM EST reply actions
I love that part
you know he’s already making friends here if he’s calling out ITBSOHL
douchion = -(grission)
to me he will be known as "the Clobbering Canuck"
and I already have an excellent (imho) tagline for homers
hint: it’s not “Another British Columbian Blast!!”
El Infierno Canadá ?
I know that’s not grammatically correct, but it sounds better than what it should be.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Feb 24, 2010 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
Josh "El Infierno" Thole
and
Fernando “El Martillo” Martinez
Awesome. I would like “BYE BYE BAY-BEE” to be the Bay home run call.
Jimmy Rollins
something tells me the Phillies fans won’t blast him for his comments the same way they blasted Santana and Wright for theirs. The double standard is infuriating. The guy made one prediction and backed it up, since then he’s incorrectly guaranteed that he’d hit .400 in a month (he didn’t even SLUG .400 that month) & that the Phillies would win the World Series in 5 games last year. He’s an arrogant loudmouth who has been about the 6th or 7th most valuable Philly over the past two years.
2009 Did Not Happen
by cjmulrain on Feb 24, 2010 11:19 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
By Leader,
They mean someone whose language of origin is English.
President of the Ramses Barden Fan Club
by Hoyadestroya85 on Feb 24, 2010 11:27 AM EST reply actions
Japanese players
I think the Mets have focused so much on Japan for the past decade because they are still kicking themselves for not bidding higher on Ichiro.
by Nomenclaturist on Feb 24, 2010 11:59 AM EST reply actions
I love it
how Ollia has a higher OBP than Santos in that game
by MetsKnicksRutgers on Feb 24, 2010 12:24 PM EST reply actions
Awful
Essentially, the Mets traded Carlos Delgado for Bay. While Delgado could be charming to his teammates and with the media when he wanted to be, he always seemed to be on the defensive. He loved to answer a question with a question. With Bay, there is no agenda, he just answers the question. And he’s a solid teammate.
Kiernan does realize that the Mets had the best record in the MLB in Delgado’s first year, and then preceded to lose the NLCS because Pedro and Cliff “the great leader” Floyd went out and got themselves hurt (and because of that bitch from Notre Dame).
"For $11.4 million you can actually get a good player. But of course this is one of the things foolish organizations do: They complain that they can't afford good players after spending millions of dollars on not-good players." --Rob Neyer
What do you expect?
Right or wrong in what they say, the mainstream sports media (and valid arguments can be made for the rest of the mainstream media) is there for meaningless platitudes and/or fluffy optimism. FireJoeMorgan notwithstanding, criticizing mainstream sports writers for being shortsighted in their analysis is like getting mad at your dog for not pooping in the toilet, flushing, and cleaning himself. Just be glad the dog didn’t go on your pillow.
by Jamesir Bensonmum on Feb 24, 2010 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
It's especially hilarious
because wasn’t Delgado championed as a leader and one of the veteran influences that was trying to keep the team together through the adversity?
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
Every time over the last few years
that I’ve heard A Mets player or coach asked who the leader of the team is, their answer has been, without hesitation: “Carlos Delgado”. That tells me a lot. But hey, why ask the players what they think when you can just make stuff up to fit your narrative.
You don't cheer for the Mets. You drink for the Mets.
by Kevin H on Feb 24, 2010 1:10 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It seems to me he was noted as a leader, but criticized for getting in the way of Wright developing leadership
Why Wright and not Reyes? We’re back to the original question.
I agree. How does acknowledging the one player you know and answering to the press construe some one as a leader. Delgado is a player loved by the fans and hated by the press because he doesn’t play by there rules. Kiernan is a fool.
With that said Bay has the potential to be a veteran leader and I hope he does. But only time and numbers will establish. PR work and clubhouse leader are far from the same thing.
by christopherm on Feb 24, 2010 1:01 PM EST up reply actions
The only leadership we need out of Bay
is for him to tell Francoeur to shut up when he tries to say that he is good.
"For $11.4 million you can actually get a good player. But of course this is one of the things foolish organizations do: They complain that they can't afford good players after spending millions of dollars on not-good players." --Rob Neyer
by boom_roasted on Feb 24, 2010 1:10 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Off topic, but the Heilman bashing
annoys me, because he was pretty good in ‘06, plus he shouldn’t have been put out there for a second inning. What were we saving Wagner for? It’s the 9th inning in game 7. Also, losing El Duque hurt as much as losing Pedro. And finally, if Jose Valentin doesn’t strike out with the goddamn based juiced and only 1 out (on a horrible pitch if I remember) in the 6th, maybe it all ends differently. Remember, that was the half inning right after Endy’s catch. They had all the momentum. And Valentin couldn’t put the damn ball in play. Still angry…
by Mackey Sasser on Feb 24, 2010 2:33 PM EST up reply actions
Heilman did have a -3 WPA in game 7...
But yeah, it’s not fair at all for me to say anything bad about his 2006 season. In my own defense, however, I was more attacking Heilman for going to Notre Dame.
I really don’t mind having Heilman in for the 2nd inning, however. He was an effective reliever that season (the whole bullpen was that season) and the Cardinals were in the bottom half of their order.
"For $11.4 million you can actually get a good player. But of course this is one of the things foolish organizations do: They complain that they can't afford good players after spending millions of dollars on not-good players." --Rob Neyer
by boom_roasted on Feb 24, 2010 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
Applesauce
“They finally have a veteran everyday player who possesses common sense.” What the hell? I thought that’s the reason we are paying Alex Cora $2 million dollars. And, I thought that Carlos Delgado WAS our “leader”? Now he never was? What a horrible, horrible article.
Why have our inroads in Japan not yet netted us a “good” player? Why don’t we focus more of our international scouting funds and focus on Japan, Korea, and even China? The NPB certainly presents some difficulty with the Posting System, but with some poking, a floodgate could, in theory, open because of Tazawa. I’m not sure how things work in Korea.
Jimmy Rollins is a schmuck. What’s new.
And, I’m looking forward for Morgan sporting an afro.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Feb 24, 2010 1:18 PM EST reply actions
Cora isn't an everyday player
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
Oh, it's coming; it's coming...(and, if it does, shoot me now)
True, but he’s supposed to be our “veteran clubhouse guy”. Omar, even him, no one’s ever come out and said as much directly, but they’ve both said it in parsed words.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Feb 24, 2010 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
what does
“veteran clubhouse guy” mean?
by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Feb 24, 2010 4:49 PM EST up reply actions
Omar's rationale for initially signing Cora, and, subsequently, re-signing him.
“You win championships with a 25-man roster. Alex Cora has been an integral part of teams that have been to the postseason in four of the last five years.”
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Feb 24, 2010 6:42 PM EST up reply actions
Charlie Samuels is a Veteran Clubhouse Guy
"I've been trying transcendental meditation, and that helps me be passive and wait on the curve. I've got to find something else to hit the slider." - George (The Stork) Theodore
Wilpon's Infatuation with the Brooklyn Dodgers
News flash – The Dodgers are in LA. Just because Sandy is a friend of the owner’s and Citi Field is a shrine to a team not called the New York Mets do we have to have the yearly Koufax spends 15 minutes with our most screwed up pitcher story. Enough already. When’s Doc and Tom Terrific showing up. That I’ll read about.
by christopherm on Feb 24, 2010 1:25 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, great idea!
Let’s not have one of the best pitchers in MLB history help us out. I mean, screw any kind of help that we can get, from whoever is offering it! If Ozzie Smith wanted to help Jose Reyes with his fielding (not that he particularly needs it), screw him. If Bruce Sutter wanted to work with Eddie Kunz and make him an actual useful reliever, slam the door in his face. If Tony Gwynn wanted to fix Jeff Francoeur’s approach at the plate, don’t let him.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Feb 24, 2010 1:32 PM EST up reply actions
15 minutes and a photo shoot is helping anybody. Read the article even Koufax says he’s not a coach. The Tom and Doc line was tongue in cheek too. There is no saving Ollie Perez.
Another bad PR move trying to convince the fan that the contract they gave Perez makes any sense.
by christopherm on Feb 24, 2010 1:36 PM EST up reply actions
And even the Mets (see earlier Post) have given up on our 1st rounder of 2007 being a reliever. So Sutter can’t help there either.
by christopherm on Feb 24, 2010 1:38 PM EST up reply actions
Not being a teacher =/= not being able to learn from someone.
I don’t have any kind of teaching degrees, nor do I have any experience teaching in any kind of setting, but does that mean that, if I tutored someone in some subject, they aren’t going to learn something? When Koufax said he’s no teacher (and, he’s not lying), he’s, in a way, indemnifying himself from any kind of “reaction” when/if Perez does not show any kind of improvement, or (God forbid) regresses, the same way financial securities companies say they are indemnified from blame when/if you lose money because of their investing it for you.
The guy’s a treasure trove of information, regarding pitching mechanics, the mental aspects of pitching, dealing with pressure, whatever it is. Something as innocuous as, “When I pitched, I imagined the catcher had a red dot on his glove, and I focused on that” can, in theory, have a impact on the performance of anyone, be it Perez, Santana, whoever.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Feb 24, 2010 1:58 PM EST up reply actions
Good players do not necessarily equate to good teachers.
My question is this: in the times that Koufax has come to camp to stand around and offer pointers, have any of the pitchers actually benefited from it?
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Feb 24, 2010 1:36 PM EST up reply actions
I know Billy Wagner credited Koufax in 2008 for helping him in some way/shape/fashion.
Was that possibly when he changed his delivery? I’m foggy.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Feb 24, 2010 2:02 PM EST up reply actions
a lot of times it's actually the inverse
good players can’t quite understand why bad players aren’t good. If something comes so naturally to you, how are you going to explain it to someone for whom it doesn’t come naturally?
That said, Koufax went through a lot more career struggle than most inner circle hall of famers, so if any of them should be good teachers, he’d probably be the one.
2009 Did Not Happen
Additionally, Ollie could learn some discipline.
Perez has a huge amount of natural talent, and if he could just learn some discipline and work ethic, he may be able to pull things together. If I recall correctly, Koufax was almost out of the majors and continued to work absurdly hard to try to put it all together while getting his college degree in night school. Thats the kind of thing a guy like Ollie could glean from a true professional.
Koufax wasn’t paid 12 mil per to suck either. Apples and oranges
by christopherm on Feb 24, 2010 4:19 PM EST up reply actions
I am commenting to the “college degree in night school”. Sandy wasn’t able to kick it up after his career was over. he had to get a job.
Ollie got his money and if plays it right will never have to work again.
Totally revelant.
by christopherm on Feb 24, 2010 5:01 PM EST up reply actions
Price doesn't matter
We can be paying Perez $12 million dollars a year (which, unfortunately, we are), or we can be paying him the Major League minimum $400,000 a year. In either case, it’s not ‘acceptable’ to suck. In this case, no one- him, us fans, the organization- wants him to suck. Anything that can be done to curtail the sucking ways is a positive thing.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Feb 24, 2010 6:46 PM EST up reply actions
There's suck and there's suck
A guy who is a marginal talent may suck, but he sucks because he isn’t talented enough to play in the majors. Ollie has the talent but isn’t making the most of it. That’s an entirely different kettle of fish.
"I've been trying transcendental meditation, and that helps me be passive and wait on the curve. I've got to find something else to hit the slider." - George (The Stork) Theodore
I just meant the price aspect
On the field, if you suck at $12 million dollars, it’s just as bad as sucking at $400,000 dollars- at the end of the day, the team is still losing because of that player’s general inability. If you look at things from a financial perspective, of course paying someone $12 million dollars for poor performances time and time again isn’t acceptable, of course.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Feb 25, 2010 12:25 AM EST up reply actions
You're right, Chris
But that can apply with a comparison of every player now vs. pre-free agency.
"I've been trying transcendental meditation, and that helps me be passive and wait on the curve. I've got to find something else to hit the slider." - George (The Stork) Theodore
take that back immediately
The Dodgers have never been in LA.
Now I'm confused
I thought Ollie = Koufax.
"I've been trying transcendental meditation, and that helps me be passive and wait on the curve. I've got to find something else to hit the slider." - George (The Stork) Theodore
He must've been reading a book, and trying to teach himself something, then.
That’s the only way Koufax tutoring Perez can make sense, and the world not implode.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Feb 24, 2010 3:46 PM EST up reply actions
Ollie=Mature
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Feb 24, 2010 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
Anybody see the clip of Sean Green's BP session?
… on metsblog. He’s dropped his arm slot to between Joe Smith and Chad Bradford territory. I guess desperate times require desperate measures.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
Both were successful during their tenures with us.
If that’s all it takes to make Sean Green successful as well, so be it, awesome. I know I for one want to break the curse of having crappy ‘Shawn/Sean Greens’ on the team, so…
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Feb 24, 2010 6:47 PM EST up reply actions
I was at the stadium the night we traded for him
I think I was the only one there who wasn’t cheering. I’m still not sure if he was a good pick up in 2006 for us or not. He was good at the plate in the playoffs, but his defense was pretty terrible.
Rollins = Douchenoid
What else is new with Rollins? He’s exactly the kind of douchenoid we’ve all come to know and hate. What pride…
And speaking of pride, isn’t that one of the deadly sins? It is? ALRIGHT EVERYONE, LET’S STONE TEH BASTARD!!!!
The 2010 New York Mets: Maybe it's the Phillies' turn to have 95% of its roster on the DL
The 2009 New England Patriots: At least we got our division title back
The 2009-10 New Jersey Devils: Allergic to second periods
I disagree with Joe Janish
Pitching is precision throwing. Sometimes delivery is overrated. You don’t want to change what you do. Delivery shouldn’t interfere with your ability to throw. You make it a simple situation so you can retain it.
I think Koufax might be right, people try to over think every aspect of the game, especially delivery. Maybe Perez needs to stop thinking and just throw, maybe it is too much and interfers with his game. Plus if your delivery changes a little over a few throws maybe itthrows off the timing of the hitter.
by Rickfansince76 on Feb 25, 2010 12:00 AM EST reply actions
Eh Perez's delivery getting out of whack
almost always seems to coincide with his implosion. It seems more like he’s not focusing enough on his body motion than than over thinking it.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
I can both agree and disagree.
If you have a weird wind-up and motion, you’re more likely to mess something up, and screw up your mechanics. Take Dontrelle Willis, for example. He has/had a real funky motion, with a lot going on, and a lot of people contribute that to part of his downfall (if I’m not mistaken, the Tigers were teaching him a more “pedestrian” motion). Part of a pitcher’s guile comes from his delivery and motion, though. More often than not, stops (Haren), twists (Tiant), or whatever else (Okajima) make it harder for the batter to concentrate, pick up the ball, or whatever else.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Feb 25, 2010 12:31 AM EST up reply actions
Santana vs Halladay
They are both top pitchers in the league and I am happy we have 1 of them. Halladay has had a better years the last 2 than Santana but Santana was a victim of quite a few blown wins in 08. The big advantage Halladay gives you is complete games.
by Rickfansince76 on Feb 25, 2010 12:05 AM EST reply actions
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