Mets interested in Kiko Calero
He of the 2.39 tRA. Weeeeeeeee
almost 2 years ago
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I'll be happy with anything if we get him
He’s good enough that, logically, he would make the team even if it’s a minor league contract. And if he doesn’t make right away, hopefully he’d be brought up quickly whenever one of the relievers inevitably struggles or gets injured, at which point he just has to pitch his way into the permanent ’pen.
I’ve loved that guy ever since seeing him on that ridiculously talented ’04 Cards team before he got traded for Mulder.
Now, go out and get him. That's the trick.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Mar 1, 2010 12:42 AM EST reply actions
A question about the Mets' offseason
Who would you rather have: Jason Bay or Mike Cameron, Nick Johnson, Felipe Lopez, and Gabe Gross?
or
Jason Bay or Mike Cameron, Rich Harden, and Gabe Gross?
i don't wanna talk about it
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
An Oliver Perez 4-year/$100 million extension, Jose Reyes traded for David Eckstein, and Johan Santana traded for Pat Zachry, Steve Henderson, Doug Flynn, and Dan Norman.
Oh, and the scuttling and fire-sale of the entire farm system, because everyone sucks and has no remote value whatsoever.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Mar 1, 2010 1:45 AM EST up reply actions
If I was going to undo the Bay signing, I wouldn't be going after Cameron.
His value is largely derived from his fielding, and Plus/Minus doesn’t think he’s nearly the fielder UZR does. His bat would be far less valueable in a corner, and neither metric thinks he plays a corner spot as well as he plays center (in an admitedly small 826 inning sample size, but niether metric rates him even 2 runs better than average). I’d have been all over Harden ragardless, but I think there were way better options out there than a 37 yr old Cameron at 2/16
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 1, 2010 2:24 AM EST up reply actions
We would have use for Cameron in center though
with Beltran being out and not knowing how his knees would hold up in center afterwards long-term.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
But at the time Cameron signed we had no idea Beltrans knees were an issue again.
That popped up afterwards. In retrospect he would have done a nice job filling that hole, but when the decision was made that hole wasn’t there yet.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 1, 2010 10:34 AM EST up reply actions
I'd disagree we had no idea they'd be an issue
there didn’t seem to be any reason to believe they had ever stopped becoming an issue during the season. Most reports said he put off the inevitable surgery during the season because the mets wanted him on the field for meaningless games. Add to the fact he’s continually had problems with his legs and it seems like something the mets should have been preparing for.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
You could argue that they already have just as good a backup plan in place.
Cameron was worth 4.3 WAR in 1267.2 innings last year. Pagan was worth 2.8 in only 697 innings. They already had a younger, cheaper plan B that produced at just as good a level as Cameron. Behind him they had Fernando in AAA who could step in and play center. I think that was a satisfactory backup plan prior to the surprise surgery.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 1, 2010 11:13 AM EST up reply actions
The problem with Pagan as the back up plan
1. he has no real track level to know what to expect from him 2. He’s had trouble staying healthy and 3. He’s arguably better than Frenchy and once he became Beltrans back up plan there was no back up plan should Frenchy fall apart. Also he’s not exactly world beating in center just around average so he should probably be seen as more of a fourth outfielder, or 3rd since he’s likely better than Frenchy, than back up centerfielder on a team who needs REALLY good defense from centerfield to make up for the corner spots.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
I'll agree with you that he's got a very limited track record, but I can't buy into the injury issue.
He’s had 2 DL trips in his time with the Mets. One was for a strained groin last year, the other was his dislocated shoulder which was definitely that freak injury type that was directly the result of a collision. He really had no injury issues in his time with the Cubs organization, and very little playing time.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 1, 2010 11:37 AM EST up reply actions
beyond that
the cubs let him go so easily because they also viewed him as a guy who couldn’t stay on the field yet in that case it was due completely to a long lasting bout w/ ulcerative colitis, another freak occurence.
the funny thing is throughout his minor league career he was seen as something of an ironman, regularly playing upwards of 450-500 ab’s every year from the time he started full season baseball to the time he reached the majors w/ little to no injury history to speak of.
by Rob Castellano on Mar 1, 2010 1:31 PM EST up reply actions
Cameron
+15 per Plus/Minus last 3 seasons
+11.1 per UZR last 3 seasons
I fail to see how “Plus/Minus doesn’t think he’s nearly the fielder UZR does”. He would’ve been a good signing then and a great one now.
by James Kannengieser on Mar 1, 2010 10:25 AM EST up reply actions
Bill James has his last three seasons at +1, +7, and +3 by Plus/Minus.
UZR has his values at -10.2, 11.3, 10.0 via fangraphs. I’m not sure where your numbers came from, but I just double checked both sites as I was writing this.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 1, 2010 10:38 AM EST up reply actions
You are looking at the wrong numbers on Bill James
It’s OK, it’s a common mistake many people make. Plus/Minus by itself is not a statistic on the same scale as UZR. You have to look at Plus/Minus converted to runs saved on the Bill James site. This measure includes throwing arm as well. His Plus/Minus numbers alone are indeed +1, +7 and +3, but his Plus/Minus total in terms of runs saved, including OF throwing arm and HRs saved, is +5, +7 and +3 over those years. I double checked it as I was writing this.
by James Kannengieser on Mar 1, 2010 11:21 AM EST up reply actions
Is the data you're referring to the stuff found in totalruns?
I don’t see any column in the Plus/Minus page that matches up with the numbers you just provided.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 1, 2010 11:28 AM EST up reply actions
Question for James
Do you think that the Cameron could have coexistied in the same OF as Beltran? The comments that Cliff Floyd made had me question their ability to play together. They had trouble adjusting to one another, and then by August to have that collision in SD was very telling. They had 3/4th of a season to get communication down, but could not. I thought he was willing to play LF, but seeing how the Sox moved Ellesbury to LF makes me wonder if he ever intended to move to LF. I think that might render the Mike Cameron speculation moot.
by Coolpapabell on Mar 1, 2010 11:36 AM EST up reply actions
Been there, done that vis-a-vis Cameron.
and bringing up Harden and Nick Johnson with the Mets recent team injury history would have been a ridiculous way to go.
I think the more appropriate choices would have been:
FLopez, Gabe Gross, Greg Zaun and one of Dotel, Howry, Gregg or Capps rather than Cora, GMJ, Barajas and Escobar.
by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Mar 1, 2010 10:28 AM EST reply actions
So no addressing the bullpen
and that’s a lot of money on so-so relief options.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
completely agree
too many people say ‘look at all that money that could have been better utilized on sheets, harden, johnson, etc.’ but the fact of the matter is, whether it was the right move or not, omar very clearly made a conscious decision this winter to avoid anyone w/ a spotty health record following what happened last year.
i happen to think that was a completely rational and very justifiable decision based on the amount of money wasted in the last 2-3 seasons on injuries (not to mention bad investments). to complain about guys like harden & sheets at this point is whining for the sake of whining which is all too common by some around here.
by Rob Castellano on Mar 1, 2010 1:37 PM EST up reply actions
Couldn't Bay
considering his knee problem, which wasn’t a continually problem but a pretty drastic career effecting isolated one, in the past and the concerns of the Red Sox contradict that? Obviously the mets doctors cleared him but he’s certainly not free of concerns. Plus wouldn’t it make sense, in that case to have spent on someone like Garland since so many of our current options do have those injury concerns.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
absolutely not
in the past 5 seasons bay has averaged 154 games per season w/ a low of 145. and we all know the level of performance he has averaged in those seasons. you cannot reasonably put him in the same bin as ben sheets or nick johnson.
by Rob Castellano on Mar 1, 2010 5:44 PM EST up reply actions
Our pen
is a complete question mark. A lot seems to depend on how Igarashi performs, and if he’s not good, the pen could be in real trouble. We know Green and Parnell are not very good, and they’d be next up for the 8th inning assignment. Signing Calero seems like a smart move to me. He would arguably become instantly the best righty in the pen.
I think you could say that about virtually every team in baseball every season.
Besides the volatile nature of the bullpen in general, most teams don’t dump the money into the pen it would require to get 7 guys with proven track records and no risks. Even the 200 million dollar plus Yankees usually have major questions surrounding the pen, it’s just the nature of the position.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 1, 2010 12:12 PM EST up reply actions
moreover,
just b/c some other teams have failed to address weaknesses in their pen is a poor excuse for the Mets to do the same thing…. esp given the resources here (I’m referring to money, not talent evaluation skills).
by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Mar 1, 2010 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
but the Yankees have
chosen to allocate resources to their rotation rather than their pen… and they also have Mariano. There is no comparison at all.
by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Mar 1, 2010 12:27 PM EST up reply actions
Their 2009 rotation had some huge question marks, and if anything they had less certainty in the pen.
That argument really only applies to this upcoming season.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 1, 2010 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
even last year, the Yankees
had length. CC, AJ and AP all pitch deep into games… of course there is less PHing in the AL to begin with… but the Yankees have always been able to shorten games as long as Mo has been around… but it is true that they’ve allocated less to their 7th and 8th inning RP slots than other teams have in recent years… but if they’re spending big on SPs, you can’t fault them too much.
The other thing is that they’ve clearly opted to go young with guys like Coke, Robertson, Hughes & Joba to fill some of these holes and I think they knew what they had in some of these guys.
by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Mar 1, 2010 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
CC was a sure thing last year, but Burnett and Pettite were definitely injury concerns entering the year.
Wang had been hurt and Joba and Hughes were hardly sure things. The 2009 yankees rotation actually was fairly comparable to the Mets in 2010, although with greater top end ability.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 1, 2010 1:06 PM EST up reply actions
I could see CC to Johan
except like you said the upside to CC is like 6.5+ WAR, where as the upside of Johan tops out at like 4.5 maybe 5 WAR. When you’re talking about allocating resources that’s a pretty major difference. Then I could agree that Petite compared to Maine, but Burnett didn’t really compare to anyone cause once again the top end upside was much higher than anyone we have, and his floor was also higher. I can see the rough comparison but the floor/upside to their rotation was much higher than it is to our current one. Plus they were also allocating money elsewhere, Tex for example, which we arent.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
I was just trying to focus on pitching for this topic, so I kind of ignored the lineup.
It was clearly far superior to the Mets however. My point was that that even thought the Yankees had allocated a ton of resources to the rotation, it wasn’t a strong enough rotation that the pen they had wasn’t a concern to the team (which was implied earlier, but not by you).
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 1, 2010 1:20 PM EST up reply actions
but it's not a good comparison
b/c the Met rotation even near its potential doesn’t have a lot of length with guys like Ollie and Maine throwing a lot of pitches by the 5th inning and this being the NL and the Mets needing to scratch out runs the Mets invariably lift pitchers earlier than the NYY and thus have the need for a much deeper and more dependable pen. We saw how the pen wound up as the achilles heel in both ’07 and ’08.
by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Mar 1, 2010 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
The 07 and 08 pens were both built on the solid dependable proven type of reliever that you've been suggesting though.
They had low risk/reward dependable guys like Show, Smith, and Heilman. The 06 pen which was built much more like this years version was the only one of the three that was very good.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 1, 2010 3:38 PM EST up reply actions
I completely disagree on the Santana/Sabathia prediction
I predict that this year, Sabathia will actually have his own gravitational pull, significantly lowering the speed of his pitches. Seriously though, before he got hurt last year, Santana was pitching better than Sabathia. I think they both top out around the same area, just Sabathia is more of a sure thing than Johan. Would you really be surprised, if Johan comes back completely healthy, for him to be one of the best pitchers in the game this year? It wasn’t too long ago he was putting up 7 WAR seasons.
You're probably right
I forget that FIP, and thus fangraphs WAR, seems to underrate him compared to other defensive independent stats. So the difference probably isn’t as major as fWAR makes it seem.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
If you go by just tRA
Santana was better than Sabathia last season. Johan had a 3.66 tRA and CC (or is it C.C.? I forgot.) had a tRA of 3.83
The Yankees 2009 rotation
Had CC and Burnett at the forefront, and gave them huge contracts which is where money allocation came in, and I wouldn’t say Petite was all that much of a question mark and Wang wasn’t expected to be as big a question mark as he was. Plus they had Hughes and Joba in case of emergencies.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
that's patently untrue.
there are many pens around the league with more proven/durable arms than we have slotted as of now. That is not to say there isn’t upside here, but it will take precious little for this pen to be an unmitigated disaster. And saying that if we had at least brought in 1 more proven commodity to slot into the 8th inning at a cost of $3M to $4M is a far cry from saying we should have dumped a lot of money out there (nobody that I’ve heard has suggested we should have added Barry $15M Lyons for example)…. and all this after making the effort (and spending) on Putz a year ago which was the right idea in principle though the execution failed…. and that move was generally applauded.
All that said, a guy like Ferny Nieve could be a good candidate to slot into the 8th inning as long as he’s around…
by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Mar 1, 2010 12:23 PM EST reply actions
With the exception of Boston, I'd be curious who you feel has a pen without many major question marks.
As far as the general applause for the Putz deal, it was pretty much considered bad from the start here, as this FanShot would indicate.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 1, 2010 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
was that negative reaction all b/c Endy was shipped out?
roll eyes.
by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Mar 1, 2010 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
Just read the comments
There was certainly some Endy love, but most felt the return wasn’t very good for what we gave up. It’s hard to argue that in retrospect.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 1, 2010 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
And judging by his performance last year, Endy really did deserve that love.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 1, 2010 12:45 PM EST up reply actions
Oakland and TB to name 2 off the top of my head.
by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Mar 1, 2010 12:55 PM EST up reply actions
They both have a ton of questions.
For Oakland, Bailey has a very small sample size, Devine missed all of last year, and Breslow has basically no track record either. Ziegler and Weurtz were decent, but they are hardly enough to call it a strong bullpen by themselves.
As for the Rays, they added Soriano (who has an injury history himself) to a bullpen that struggled last year. I’d hardly say they don’t have any question marks.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 1, 2010 1:15 PM EST up reply actions
and the RedSox pen isn't
w/o questions either for gosh sakes, but I’d take TB’s or Oak’s pen in a nano-second over the Mets. No pen is w/o questions. I never even implied that. What I’m saying is that the Met pen has no more upside than any ML pen, but is perilously close to being a black hole imo. and that it would have been prudent to add another somewhat established arm.
I understand that you don’t agree. That’s cool.
and wrt the TB pen, i think the only reason some people thought they “struggled” last yr is b/c they had to go patchwork to replace Percival but in reality Howell and Choate did a very good job at the end of games.
by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Mar 1, 2010 1:24 PM EST up reply actions
but, what I don'tr understand is
your concern over dropping another $3M or $4M in the pen being such a poisonous idea…. as if it were your money…
what’s up with that?
by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Mar 1, 2010 2:33 PM EST up reply actions
I have no aversion to that.
I’d just rather spend that money on two Escobars than one Kevin Gregg or Latroy Hawkins. I think the risk reward method is the one to use in the pen.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 1, 2010 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
I had no problem
with the Escobar signing… just not as a guy to rely heavily on.
by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Mar 1, 2010 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
I disagree it was the right idea
spending that many resources on 2 innings, counting k-rod, of baseball is definitely the wrong idea. IMO bullpen should be one of the last places you allocate major resources too.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
Where did I say that I was an advocate of the KRod deal?
by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Mar 1, 2010 1:10 PM EST up reply actions
the Putz deal came after the K-rod deal
regardless of whether you were a fan of the K-rod deal, with all those resources already allocated to the 9th inning I don’t see how it could be the right idea to allocate as much as we did to the 8th inning. It’s not like they didn’t already know what they were spending on K-rod.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
most everywhere else
I keep up with was generally pleased when we netted Putz though the extent of his arm issues clearly weren’t well known. But my point was that the effort to fortify the 8th inning slot was a solid strategy even if it ultimately failed with Putz.
by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Mar 1, 2010 12:48 PM EST reply actions
I disagree
fortifying the 8th inning will ignoring the multiple other holes along the time was a pretty poor plan. If we had netted putz instead of spending the money on K-rod then maybe it would have made sense. But that’s still too many valuable resources going to one hole on a team that had much bigger holes.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
Put it this way
Would you trade our bullpen straight up for more than half of the bullpens in the majors? I’m pretty sure I would. At least 1/3 of them anyway. So many teams have at least 1 non-closer that is righty and extremely solid. A guy that averages more than a K per inning, with a low BAA and low whip. We have no one at that level, other than Feliciano, who struggles vs. righties. A lot of guys here seem confident in Green and Parnell. Why? Parnell’s never really been good at any level. And Green had an okay year in ’08 and blew last year. Calero is better than both of those guys.
Parnells had strong k rates at most levels
and he was never really good as a starter because his secondary pitchers lacked refinement. Just focusing on his fastball should improve his velocity and out of the pen his strong fastball should be enough for him to be the type of righty you’re talking about. Now I can understand the frustration when it seems like we haven’t allocated resources anywhere else to explain relying on someone with an unproven track record, but for the most part I’d rather give Parnell a chance than spend on a more expensive piece just because his name is well known.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
His K rate is 7.9
for the minors, and 7.4 for the majors (93 IP). That’s okay, but I would not classify it as strong, especially for someone that throws as hard as him. The real problem with him has been the number of walks, and the amount of hits is a close 2nd. His fastball is hard, but straight.
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