Three-run Homer Single Applesauce - Braves walk off Mets, Carter continues to rake, Reyes alright

by Joe Budd on Mar 11, 2010 9:36 AM EST in Applesauce

Meet the Mets

The Braves beat the Mets in 10 innings yesterday as Jesus Sucre hit a walkoff home run/single. What you should know: Chris Carter continues to make a strong push for Mike Jacobs' spot with another home run; Carter is now named the "Animal"; the Braves' celebration continues to show the double standard applied to the Mets' antics.

It looks like the Jose Reyes deal has died down, but Joe Posnanski raises a bunch of good points about what we've learned.

Patrick Flood makes an excellent point about Jenrry Mejia's inevitable call-up: it's purely so that Manuel and Minaya can keep their jobs.

Do you remember Jeff Duncan? That brings back some really bad memories.

The A's promptly released Jay Marshall.

Around MLB

Jerry Thornton created a little firestorm with this column which would not have even been published by my high school newspaper. Ted Berg does what Ted Berg does.

Another guy named Jerry, Jerry Brewer says that Jack Zduriencik's strength is in knowing people.

More controversy: Torii Hunter calls Black Latinos "impostors."

Mike Schmidt on Letterman a long time ago.

John Sickels offers his advice on what to do with Stephen Strasburg and Aroldis Chapman.

Do home runs win games?

Oh man, do you think the Twins would want newly minted reliever Jenrry Mejia for Joe Mauer? They'd be idiotic if they did.

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This quote makes me happy in so many ways,

In fact, not that long ago, Bill James and I plotted out a formula… to try and determine the most exciting players in baseball. I lost that original formula, but I tried to recreate it, taking into account triples (the most exciting play in baseball!), stolen bases, batting average, defensive excitement (subjective) and a couple of other things. I’m pretty sure I created the most wildly flawed formula to appear on the Internet today.

This quote does not,

As African-American players, we have a theory that baseball can go get an imitator and pass them off as us. It’s like they had to get some kind of dark faces, so they go to the Dominican or Venezuela because you can get them cheaper. It’s like, ’Why should I get this kid from the South Side of Chicago and have Scott Boras represent him and pay him $5 million when you can get a Dominican guy for a bag of chips?

by Sokojoe on Mar 11, 2010 9:57 AM EST reply actions 1 recs

lol Tori Hunter is clearly brilliant

"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'

it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.

by Gina on Mar 11, 2010 12:07 PM EST up reply actions

So I guess the Braves and us are even now?

with walk off homerun/singles?

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Mar 11, 2010 10:25 AM EST reply actions

disagree with Flood, shot down closer more valuable

I think making Mejia a closer is a good idea. I would say the value of Papelbon is more than Greinke..here’s why. Greinke won 16 games last season, while Papelbon won 38. Papelbon has helped the Sox win 165( w+sv) out of 251 games his has pitched inth elast 4 seasons, only blowing 18 saves and losing 11. Greinke in a 136 starts over the last 5 + seasons ( one injury year) has won 50 games, while losing 53. Now I do not have the ability to quickly find out how many other starts ended with a victory but if it is even half then you get 56-57 wins.
go by the last 2 good season Greinke has had 29 wins in 65 starts while Pap has had 6 wins and 79 saves, 85 wins. More wins than games by Greinke

if you look at Mariano in the Bronx, he has 526 saves and 71 victories (597 total wins not including his post season excellence)), and only 62 blown saves( possible loses) since 1995 and 900 games. Now Andy Petite broke in in 1995 also and he has been a very good pitcher since. he only has 229 wins with 135 loses in 450 games. Rivera has pitched in 2 times the amount of games and been involved with 2.6 times more wins, while being involved witth half the amount of loses.

just my thoughts, and looking at the numbers

by Rickfansince76 on Mar 11, 2010 11:01 AM EST reply actions

Satire?

by James Kannengieser on Mar 11, 2010 11:11 AM EST up reply actions

I don't think so.

"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Mar 11, 2010 11:13 AM EST up reply actions

im hoping it is

by KeithsMoustache on Mar 11, 2010 11:27 AM EST up reply actions

Dude, that's just math. Deal with it.

by SuperT on Mar 11, 2010 1:37 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs

So much is flawed there.

Papelbon’s value (or any relief pitcher) is not even close to an ace pitcher’s value. It isn’t wins or saves (largely irrelevant stats in the grand scheme of things) that matter in comparing SPs to RPs, it is innings pitched. The starters are taking up a far larger % of total possible innings than the relievers. It isn’t close. You can’t even really compare the two.

An argument I always found interesting (and without a guaranteed clear cut answer) is stud closers vs. a tier 3 type starter. But an ace? Not close.

by True Blue4 on Mar 11, 2010 11:14 AM EST up reply actions

An interesting interpretation of the numbers,

but largely incorrect.

Papelbon pitched 68 innings last season to the tune of a 1.147 WHIP, 253 ERA+, 10.1 K/9, etc etc.
Zack Greinke pitched 229.1 innings last season with a 1.073 WHIP, 205 ERA+, 9.5 K/9, etc etc.

The value, as has been and is being said by others, is not in wins or saves or grission. It is in innings pitched at an elite level. Papelbon gave the Red Sox 68 elite innings and Greinke gave the Royals 229.1 elite innings.

I hope others continue to repeat the points I am repeating because they bear repeating.

by Jamesir Bensonmum on Mar 11, 2010 11:22 AM EST up reply actions

Can't put it any simpler than that

I’d rather get 200+ elite innings than 50-60 elite innings any day.

by KeithsMoustache on Mar 11, 2010 11:28 AM EST up reply actions

As Chris Russo would say, "Ricky, come back to us"

by Bieser's Balk on Mar 11, 2010 11:29 AM EST up reply actions

W/L is basically worthless as a stat, as are saves.

It’s hard to determine which is actually more worthless, but Saves are infinitely easier to rack up than wins. Besides the basic foundation of this argument being based on the wrong type of data, the two types of data you are using really shouldn’t be given equal weighting either.

Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?

by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 11, 2010 11:48 AM EST up reply actions

Saves, hands down more worthless.

Which is what make this argument (troll or joke, it’s in the pervading thought process of most mainstream sports media and OUR TEAM’S front office) even more mind-numbingly bankrupt.

For a save, you only need to record between the 1 and 11 final outs with a 1 to 3 run lead (pending baserunners, etc) or record the final 12 or more outs (not starting a game) while keeping the lead in-tact. You have zero dependence on the offense. The stat is driven to give closers higher contracts, end of story.

by Jamesir Bensonmum on Mar 11, 2010 11:54 AM EST up reply actions

Just read Berg's piece.

Hahaha, great work by him. I always loved the “stat geek” stereotype. So stupid.

by True Blue4 on Mar 11, 2010 11:30 AM EST reply actions

The Torii Hunter Thing

Might not be a good thing to talk about as it’s pretty controversial, but it’s been an issue for years. What he might better have said is that such surveying should distinguish African-American players from Afro-Caribbean players (the British vs Spanish heritage in the Caribbean is largely irrelevant in this particular case I think). It gets thorny when you use the term ‘black’. African-Americans are not the only ‘black’ people, clearly, if you want to use that term. But equally, Dominicans (in particular) go out of their way to say they are not ‘black’ (and in many cases what they really mean is not Haitian). They might have precisely the same generational difference from their last ancestor who lived in Africa as someone from the U.S. or Britain (in the latter case often via the Caribbean). So it puzzles, and saddens, me that people make such a thing of it. Yes, it’s only an issue because of historic racism, but surely it persists in causing divisions when there is finger-pointing like this. I find both sides – “you’re not really black because you speak Spanish” and “I’m definitely not black because I speak Spanish” equally misguided.

by deadspy3 on Mar 11, 2010 11:34 AM EST reply actions 4 recs

You need to be recced

Dead, I think you came very close to accurately explaining this disconnect between Latin Americans and African Americans.

A large source of the disconnect derives from the fact that there is a pigmentocracy in Latin America, while the one drop rule has given African Americans a different outlook on identity.

Do agree, its sad that these divisions exsist.

by Coolpapabell on Mar 11, 2010 11:47 AM EST up reply actions

I've heard another view

Namely that there is a “brown paper bag” distinction among African-Americans, at least in years past.

I’ve always been especially saddened by micro-racism: nationalities between white people, skin color between Latinos and African-americans, tribes or castes in Asians and Africans. It seems like that makes even less sense than regular racism or religious bigotry.

In Japan, they can’t even tell who to be racist against because people all look and sound the same since the history goes back so far, but if you’re “exposed” as descended from the historical “underclass”, you could lose your job and have to move.

by hotspur on Mar 11, 2010 12:18 PM EST up reply actions

the brown paper bag disctintion is almost exclusively in the south

and doesn’t persist as much anymore, though light skinned vs dark skinned is still an issue. But it’s not nearly as big an issue as it was/is in the Caribbean.

"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'

it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.

by Gina on Mar 11, 2010 12:24 PM EST up reply actions

I think one issue with that

is a lot of black people just don’t use/like the term African American because they consider African Americans to be people who recently immigrated from Africa, not people who’s families have been here for centuries. We can say he should use African American but to him African Americans and black people might not be the same thing.

"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'

it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.

by Gina on Mar 11, 2010 12:13 PM EST up reply actions

Absolutely

And at the end of the day, labelling is a thing done to exercise power over people, so if they want to reject it that’s fine. I’m definitely not saying that people should “admit” to being one thing or another, in fact I don’t really have a decent answer to this, it’s just a bit sad. I know in D.C. there is a huge gripe at the moment because recent immigrants from Africa apparently are utilising ethnic networks to get jobs which “should” be going to people who have lived here (the US, not sure why I put here as I’ve moved) for much longer.

by deadspy3 on Mar 11, 2010 8:44 PM EST up reply actions

Who needs connections and networks more than new immigrants?

by SuperT on Mar 11, 2010 9:39 PM EST up reply actions

yeah, it's not that it isn't a real issue

It seems to me that Hunter was actually trying to make a reasonable point, but he made it in a phenomenally stupid way. And to give him some credit, he realized that pretty quickly ~~- if a scout had a stopwatch on his post~~“impostor” backpedalling, he might’ve set a new speed record. I just found the whole thing kind of hilarious in a more-heat-than-light way.

by anonymous on Mar 11, 2010 5:39 PM EST up reply actions

goddamn fucking strikethrough.

Can’t somebody get the SBNation code-monkeys to fix that?

by anonymous on Mar 11, 2010 5:39 PM EST up reply actions

Agreed.

What he was discussing is a legitimate issue in baseball and/or the African-American community, where there’s less and less black players in the game as compared to other sports, and there’s less money pumped into those “RBI” programs than there are doing other things. The way he worded and said everything, though…Not the best way to do things.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Mar 11, 2010 8:43 PM EST up reply actions

Well, I am starting to dislike Manuel

I have never felt strongly for or against him. I felt that the last year was a lost year, so I could not blame him for the team’s failures.

Then you get the Mejia craziness. I understand where he is coming from. He won’t be around to see him start for the Mets in the bigs. I get that, but there is also an ethical issue where you have to hold the player’s development as the number one priority.

by Coolpapabell on Mar 11, 2010 11:39 AM EST reply actions

I don't think we

can really blame Manuel for that, he shouldn’t be in a position where his opinion on the matter has any difference anyway. The problem isn’t that he wants Meija in the bullpen, it’s that there’s no one in the front office with half a brain that will say “good for you but no way”.

"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'

it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.

by Gina on Mar 11, 2010 12:12 PM EST up reply actions

right

because at this point Omar is equally short-sighted

by JoshNY on Mar 11, 2010 12:28 PM EST up reply actions

yes

What Manuel really likes is Carter’s short swing…

I keep telling my gf that it’s good to have a short swing, but she’s not buying.

by hotspur on Mar 11, 2010 11:42 AM EST reply actions 3 recs

Fantastic

Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?

by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 11, 2010 11:48 AM EST up reply actions

FUCKPISSWANKBUGGERSHITTINGASSHEADANDHOLE!

http://www.metsblog.com/2010/03/11/omar-minayas-conference-call-on-reyes/

No Reyes for the opener, in all likelyhood…

Oh, the butcher and the baker and the people on the street: wheredotheygo?!?!?

by CharlieH on Mar 11, 2010 12:50 PM EST reply actions

great...

by KeithsMoustache on Mar 11, 2010 12:52 PM EST up reply actions

say hello to two years of alex cora

that option is vesting ladies and gentlemen

by Bieser's Balk on Mar 11, 2010 12:53 PM EST up reply actions

sh*t, you're right

this puts us in possible vesting territory. When does the hurting stop?!

by KeithsMoustache on Mar 11, 2010 2:36 PM EST up reply actions

What the fuck is this guy talking about?

They’re like the Communist Party plotting to take over Hollywood in the 1950s before Ronald Reagan got wise to them and kicked their pinko butts all the way back to Moscow and Harvard Square. Only, instead of trying to write screenplays full of anti-capitalists rants, the Stat Geeks have succeeded in making otherwise normal, decent, God-fearin’ Americans start talking about VORP (Value Over Replacement Player) ratings and UZR (Ultimate Zone Rating) numbers like they really believe in this nonsense.

I do find it pretty amusing how I disagree with almost every thing this man thinks. My other favorite is when people relate sabermetrics to global warming, as if they are both complete absurdities.

by Evan_S on Mar 11, 2010 1:06 PM EST reply actions

Just ignore it all.

I read it, laughed, and that’s that. I disagree with dumbasses who write stuff like that, but they’re so obviously wrong and misguided and whatnot that it not even worth taking the time to voice a dissenting opinion.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Mar 11, 2010 2:54 PM EST up reply actions

Its pretty clear

This Thornton guy is trolling. He has gotten more hits on this article than probably any other he has farted out. He took a page right out of Skip Bayless’ book.

by Coolpapabell on Mar 11, 2010 2:56 PM EST up reply actions

Evan you left the best parts out!

“But then, I made an amazing discovery. Something that the Stat Geek population doesn’t know and never will. Women. And it changed my life forever, in much the same way that Blossom’s life changed in that Very Special Episode where she gets her period, I would never be the same.As I recall, the exact moment for me came when Phoebe Cates climbed out of the pool in "Fast Times at Ridgemont High" and took her top off in slow motion to the Cars’ "In Stereo" that did it for me. What Phoebe showed me that day was perfection.”

How can one be mad at anything he has to say. RLMAO! He saw a pair of boobs on TV and that changed his life. He was saved from math and thinking. Oh boy that poor guy.

by Coolpapabell on Mar 11, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions

Hahahahaha

Thornton: “You’re all nerds for properly using stats… get a life… brb watching and referencing the show Blossom”

by True Blue4 on Mar 11, 2010 3:26 PM EST up reply actions

I take it he didn't reference BABIP here either

Coming this April, fun times with Jeff and Gary!

by Brian. on Mar 11, 2010 3:40 PM EST up reply actions

I posted that as soon as I read it

so when I got to that part, I didn’t want to make another post quoting the same “article.”

But yeah, that guy’s a douche. I mean, when I’m in my mom’s basement watching my 6 monitors of spreadsheets, playing World of Warcraft on a seventh and Modern Warfare 2 online on an eighth (pwning everybody, by the way), and I run out of Cheetos and soda, who brings me more? My mom, and she’s a woman.

by Evan_S on Mar 11, 2010 3:43 PM EST up reply actions