Elijah Dukes for Centerfield?
by Sam Page on Mar 17, 2010 7:54 PM EDT
106 comments
The Nationals inexplicably released Elijah Dukes today. The Mets' outfield is seemingly "settled" with Bay-Pagan-Francoeur set to be the opening day starters, but any team expecting to break camp with Gary Matthews Jr. has room for one more talented outfielder. Dukes could play any of the three outfield positions in the time Beltran is injured and has the bat to start at either corner. Angel Pagan and Jeff Francoeur project about equally in rightfield (Pagan 50th percentile being better, Francoeur's upside and downside being more extreme) and the Mets have clearly committed to the younger Francoeur in right.
Thus, my thinking is a Bay-Dukes-Francoeur outfield until Beltran returns. At first sight, that alignment might seem like defensive suicide, but Dukes is pretty athletic and probably better than his statistically insignificant -22.2 UZR/150. Besides, Pagan is no Carlos Beltran out there. CHONE projects a .354 wOBA for Dukes and a .334 wOBA for Pagan, which over the 150 PA Beltran projects to miss equals a few runs. If Beltran missed extended time, however, the difference would obviously be much more significant. More importantly, perhaps, Pagan (or Dukes) would replace Matthews on the bench, which could be worth a whole win itself, depending on how poorly you project Little Sarge.
As a hitter, Dukes' potential rivals that of any Mets prospect. He is just 25 and one year removed from a .382 wOBA, which is better than all but one Met's (Beltran) mark last season. His plate discipline has always been extremely advanced and he has plus-plus raw power. Not only could he replace Beltran in the field, but his bat would slot nicely into the third spot in Jose Reyes' absence.
Elijah Dukes could also be an important part of the Mets long term plans. Jason Bay and Jeff Francoeur are not the soundest long-term solutions for the corners, Bay because of his knee and shoulder injuries, Francoeur for a million other reasons. Granted, Dukes has had some notorious health and personal problems of his own. Yet, it's been nearly three years since any significant incident for Dukes. The Nationals swear his release was solely a baseball decision; Jim Riggleman spoke highly of him as a teammate. Regardless, it's not as if the Mets would suddenly be in a corner if they became concerned with Dukes' personal behavior. They would not have to trade him for a Carlos Silva contract, like the Cubs with Milton Bradley or pay him deferred money until 2035, as the Mets still do for Bobby Bonilla. It is a low-risk, high-reward signing with the rare potential for immediate payoff.
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I don't think he'd be a good fit for center, he really seems like he's just gotten too big to handle anything but a corner.
He’d certainly be interesting, but I don’t know that I’d want to risk his mental instability in NY. I could see a team like the Reds or the Pirates being a much better fit for his volatile personality.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
I agree
Putting him in center seems like a bad idea. He looked awful there the admittedly few times I saw him play, like awful-awful. He doesn’t seem like that great of an athlete and is built like Dwight Freeney.
Besides that, I’m all for bringing him in but keeping Pagan as the starting CF.
by James Kannengieser on Mar 17, 2010 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd be all for Dukes the player, but Dukes in NY scares the hell out of me.
I believe he’s out of options, and he’d likely be a part time player when Beltran gets back, so I’d guess he’ll find himself a better situation anyway. With Matthews here, I just can’t see him having much interest. I can see him being a perfect fit for that other team in NY though…
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
I can see the headlines at the end of the year
About how Captain Calm Eyes helped him turn his life around and focus on baseball.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
"Dukes in NY scares the hell out of me."
Why? Like Sam said, this is a no risk move. He screws up once, you cut him.
But
What if that screw-up is like, sinking Manhattan Island or something.
by James Kannengieser on Mar 17, 2010 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
He gets into a shoving match with Jose Reyes
and Reyes hurts his leg again…
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Mar 17, 2010 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Thank you
Even if you’re not being sarcastic, thank you. People are making it sound like we would be signing the Emperor to a contract (to continue with the Star Wars references today.)
We could use a manager like the Emperor.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Mar 17, 2010 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions
"Oh no, Angel Hernandez
I’m afraid it is YOU who are mistaken"
by deadspy3 on Mar 17, 2010 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I find your lack of faith
in OBP…. disturbing
by KeithsMoustache on Mar 18, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree,
The Mets can easily spin this as the"fresh start" Dukes’ needed and worse comes to worse, he has an incident or the NYC media gets to him and the Mets simply cut him. I really don’t see the downside of this move.
I really think Dukes is the kind of crazy
not worth taking the chance on. Especially with the annoying NY media.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
by Gina on Mar 17, 2010 8:04 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Somehow I'm not buying the Nats cutting him solely for baseball reasons either.
They can claim they are all they want, but he’s got talent and he’s making nothing, so I really think there has to be something else there (even if it’s not another major incident).
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
Same here if they really cut him lose soley for baseball reasons
then they’re batsh*t crazy themselves. Though I suppose they do have an abundance of outfielders, still you’d think they could have traded him if that was the only issue. Someone must be willing to take a chance on him at his low cost.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
Someone still probably will, but at least now Dukes has a say in it.
I’d hate to see him end up unhappy…that could only end badly. There’s quite a few teams that could use an outfielder with a little pop (Atlanta comes to mind).
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
Jim Bowden tweeted something about an incident today
and apparently Justin Maxwell alluded to something along those lines when he got interviewd during the game today. I wouldn’t put much into Bowden, but the Maxwell thing is interesting.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
Must have been some incident...
or, maybe better put, “another incident.”
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
I don't think anyone is actually buying that.
The Nats have had a pretty crowded outfield, but Dukes, generally speaking, should have been one of those guys that got the nod for the job, because of the talent and whatnot.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Mar 17, 2010 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Crazy is as crazy does
While I do not envision Dukes as a CF solution, he’s certainly a better option than GMJ as the 4th OF. The NY media hype machine is given too much weight these days. We’re talking about serious raw talent. CHONE projects 9.5 wRAA for him and he’s a year removed from 14.9. We all go a little mad sometimes.
by pricedoutoftheciti on Mar 17, 2010 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it's given too much hype
and not enough at the same time. I think a good example is the turn around in 08 when Jerry took over, I think it had decidedly less to do with Jerry and more to do with the fact the team wasn’t constantly being hammered from all directions by the media about Willie’s job security. I really think they kind of constant media hammering and attention can really drain a team. And even if Dukes didn’t do anything just the idea he might have considered doing something would cause the sharks in the NY media to start hovering.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
I can see that
I guess my point is why even give it credence until there is something to prompt it. Worst case scenario he pulls a Bernazard and the beat writers slam him. The team cuts him and end of story. I just think it’s short sighted to worry about something like that until it needs to be worried about, especially for a player that’s young, available, and talented.
by pricedoutoftheciti on Mar 17, 2010 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Best case scenerio....
he gets into it with Jerry and Omar about not playing enough and all three problems disappear together.
I change my vote then
lets bring him in.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
the beat
will slam him well before any incident occurs.
You can’t run the team scared of the media, but in this case it is just courting trouble.
Yeah it's kind of like with TO
even when there was no controversy in Dallas regarding him ESPN still sensationalized every bit of news about him and dallas reporters still hammered them with questions and wrote articles about it until a controversy actually did occur.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
Dukes is Gil Arenas
pull out a gun in the locker room crazy.
OK, no incidents last couple of years, but even if Rigs said he was a good teammate, I don’t hear a bunch of teammates rushing to his defense, and I forget which one said he ws a distraction (maybe maxwell, since he is now an rf candidate-yeah man, he was a distraction for me getting some pt).
His CF d is awful.
Yes, he has hit well, and had a great year in 2008. He fell off a cliff last year. CHONE projections, UZR be damned, I don’t like the looks of the Nats releasing this guy. or the Rays trading him for a bag of beans (admittedly at the time the incidents were fresher, and he stayed out of the headlines in DC).
I really do think he could still reach some of his potential, which is fairly considerable. Sort of like cameron without the glove. Power and patience. He had some fb/hr luck in 2008 maybe, but Nat’s stadium kind of balances that out. And he looked completely lost last year.
The problem is not so much he could stick until any problem arose and it is therefor a safe gamble. And not my jokey thing about pulling out a gun-hell, maybe he’d hit Omar.
It is the shit-storm that would come down just by signing this guy. Mostly i don’t go in for the chemistry thing myslef, but damn, with NY media going on about this, it would be a huge distraction for the players.
Pure skills wise, a worthwhile gamble. And the question about his personality is almost secondary. It is the media personality here that makes it way too dangerous.
"Dukes is Gil Arenas pull ouf a gun in the locker room crazy"
Heh, good thing they just recently outlawed guns in the locker room.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Mar 18, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
No he's not
Areanas wasn’t seriously pulling out Critterdon. I could see Dukes doing something like at for real.
agreed
but that’s the point.
Anyone ever read Loose Balls, about the ABA? Apparently all the Pacers used to bring guns. Mel Daniels. Roger Brown. Netolicky. But it was more a joke, gunslinger kinda thing. As far as I recall they weren’t threatening each other.
well
they were kind of doing Bonnie and Clyde and cowboy poses, I gather. Not threatening to cap each other.
here is the story
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/11984/when-players-act-like-cowboys
Fun book, by the way. They certainly used it for that Will Ferrell movie.
In other news I totally forgot about how Reyes being out would affect the line up
Dear God. Is Frenchy going to end up batting 4th?
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
Pagan, Castillo, Wright, Bay, Murphy, Frenchy, Barajas, Tejada/Cora I would think
I can’t see Jerry going with all righties 3-4-5.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
I would love this.
I wonder if Gary would continue to condescendingly talk about how crazy and ignorant Dukes is if he were on our team.
Yes, yes, and yes, get this guy.
"Relax, all right? Don't try to strike everybody out. Strikeouts are boring; besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls. It's more democratic."
- CRASH DAVIS
honestly
the mets aren’t really good at those “low risk high reward” players. we’d give delgado 16 million again before we took a flier on a cheap player with a lot of upside.
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
those aren't really high reward players
more like medium-low reward.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
Calero is definitely on the higher reward side.
At least as much as Dukes would be.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
He's on the higher reward side for a reliever
but I meant more overall. the high end side for a reliever is probably still less than 2 WAR.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
Endy Chavez
Fernando Tatis, Ramon Castro, Pedro Feliciano, John Maine, Oliver Perez (before the contract), Angel Pagan, etc etc.
Trying to believe is my full-time occupation.
these aren't high reward players.
dukes has much more upside than any of these guys. although the initial trade for oliver perez was a good example.
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
Dukes' new career at Hallmark Cards...
If you ever need a Valentine’s Day card to give your wife, I believe that Dukes has copyrighted, “You’re dead, Dawg.”
by Mex_17 on Mar 17, 2010 8:35 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Unnecessary
I like this idea, but I think the potential costs outweigh the benefits. Practically speaking, Bay and Francoeur are entrenched, which leaves Pagan. Pagan is better defensively, and the PECOTA weighted means are about equal (262/347/446 for Dukes; 288/337/456 for Pagan). Plus, Fernando Martinez is coming, and Carter could probably survive as a backup corner OF in a pinch. I don’t see enough potential benefit to be worth the roster spot and the ensuing baggage (which I think would be largely media-driven).
In past years, the Mets lacked depth at a bunch of positions, but I think they are pretty deep on that end of the defensive spectrum this year. I don’t think I’d bother with Dukes.
Baggage
Everyone keeps talking about baggage, but its not like they’re signing Jose Guillen or Milton Bradley to a multi-year deal. This would most likely be a league minimum contract, heck, possibly a minor league deal.
Worst Case Scenario: He has another “incident” and you cut him with little harm done.
Best Case Scenario: Seeing this as his last shot, he realizes his potential and now you have a young, talented power hitting OF.
This: “Plus, Fernando Martinez is coming, and Carter could probably survive as a backup corner OF in a pinch.” Not a reason to not take a chance on Dukes. Having too much talent = good problems to have.
You can't have too many above average players.
Especially when Jeff Francoeur and GMJ are 2 out of your top 5 OFs on the depth chart and Beltran is an injury risk.
An interesting read on the situation
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
If we couldn't deal with Milledge, then
why would we expect for this organization to deal with Dukes?
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
cause e-dukes just be the secretary of state?
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
by Gina on Mar 17, 2010 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
No thanks
From a baseball perspective it makes sense, but I don’t want my team to have any part of Dukes – I can never root for him, and I hate having players I hate on the team. Same as I don’t want us ever picking up Brett Myers.
Yeah but people hate Bonds for stupid reasons
mostly because the media, full of people Bonds wasn’t friendly to in interviews, told them too. People hate Dukes because he seems to be a general piece of sh*t.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
Perfectly said
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
Dukes seems to have serious problems, but I can't hate him for it.
Especially if he has worked on his behavior and improved.
I can't hate someone for drug/drinking problems
or partying too much or getting into dumb fights. I can hate him for threatening his wife and kids and assorted baby mamas and telling them he’ll kill them all, well I don’t actually hate him just think he’s a terrible person. That’s a little more extreme than the kind of things you would expect from someone with a somewhat troubled upbringing.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
I mean I can even forgive telling the wife/gf/baby mamas w/e he'll kill them
in the middle of a heated argument. But when you’re talking about repeated threats, to not just them but his own kids, over somewhat long-periods of time that’s a little bit different.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
Too much baggage for my tastes.
Pass.
Oh, the butcher and the baker and the people on the street: wheredotheygo?!?!?
I don't mind the baggage
that much, and I was for going after Milton Bradley 2 years ago (before the Cubs overpaid him, thank god). But Bradley had just led the league in OBP and OPS. Dukes is only slightly above average with some upside. Yet, in 824 ABs his career OPS is only .771.
Dukes in my opinion would be better than Frenchy, especially considering his plate discipline, but not Pagan. Without Reyes and Beltran, Pagan needs to be in the lineup everyday. And since Dukes would not play over Frenchy, and they are not going to cut Matthews, I don’t see the point. The guy has been given multiple chances.
I just don't think he brings much value to the team
He’s got some power, but not really more than we’re likely to get from F! or Pagan, and he fields far worse than either. He can’t play CF well either. Bay, GMJr, and Frenchy are probably locks so there aren’t many spots left in the OF. He has the advantage of being cheap, but the disadvantage of probably not having a spot on the major league roster. He has good plate discipline (although his actual discipline leaves something to be desired). Ultimately I don’t care that much about his off field problems. Is he a crazy SOB? Almost assuredly. But so were guys like Ty Cobb and nobody would claim he wasn’t worth the trouble. Ultimately for me it comes down to him not being good enough to make the team. If he’ll accept a minor league deal, send him to Buffalo and see what he can make of himself, but to me he’s not even worth considering for the big league club right now.
by KeithsMoustache on Mar 18, 2010 12:00 PM EDT reply actions
That's what makes theoretically signing Dukes something to think about: Does his skill offset his theoretical craziness?
A guy like Ty Cobb, he was a general piece of shit, but, all that be damned, he played like and is a Hall of Famer. Barry Bonds, same thing- he’s a douche who has a tainted record, but all that be damned, there isn’t anybody who’d look at his stats, and say that they weren’t amazing most of the time. Dukes, he has potential, but he has never really played at that level where you ignore the off-the-field problems because he’s that good.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Mar 18, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
He's not Ty Cobb or Barry Bonds, but there is a lot of upside
Posting a .382 wOBA at the age of 24 is pretty damm impressive. With Duke’s combination of bat speed, plate discipline, & power, he’s got the potential to be a perennial all-star.
does anyone have a list
of players that posted that ops at that age for some sort of comparison?
by Mike Clemente on Mar 18, 2010 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
According to Baseball Reference
The most similar players through age 25 are:
1.Laynce Nix (981)
2. Deron Johnson (972)
3. Jack Howell (968)
4. Jim King (966)
5. Matt Lawton (966)
6. Chet Ross (965)
7. Gary Roenicke (965)
8. Nate McLouth (965)
9. Candy Maldonado (964)
10. Vince DiMaggio (962)
Admittedly, it’s not an impressive list. I’d be curious to see what comps Baseball Prospecuts gives
He's a hard guy to come up with a good comp for.
He’s got so much raw upside, as seen by his good season sandwiched between 2 awful ones.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
raw talent doesn't always translate into a good baseball player
and i get the feeling Dukes is going to be one of those cases where it doesn’t all come together. I’ve seen it a million times before, where a player has all the tools to be a star but it never translates to actual on field success.
by KeithsMoustache on Mar 18, 2010 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
BP Comps
Pretty eclectic list:
1 Mike Epstein
2 Austin Kearns
3 Adam Dunn
4 Ron Swoboda
5 Joe Foy
6 Larry Walker
7 Carmelo Martinez
8 Dave Henderson
9 Dave Winfield
10 Kelly Johnson
11 Matt Holliday
12 Paul O’Neill
13 Lance Berkman
14 Dave Nicholson
15 Carlos Quentin
16 Fred McGriff
17 Dwight Evans
18 Byron Browne
19 Travis Buck
20 Cliff Floyd
It’s funny to me how a guy has time to put up and maintain a blog about the baseball, then spends the time to come up with ideas to write about, and even takes the painstaking time to look up the stats….BUT NEVER bothers to WATCH the guy play! Dukes is an AWFUL fielder. I wouldn’t put him in a corner let alone center. Page – watch a game! Watch the guy play. Sheesh. Pagan and GMJ are 1 million times better defensively than this mental case.
what if the few games you saw...
he played terrible, but the majority of games you didnt, he was actually decent or better? It’s a tough concept to understand i know, but you can do it
by Mike Clemente on Mar 18, 2010 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Way to make your first comment a good one...
I’m impressed that you used punctuation, and both caps and lower case letters.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
I'm guessing this must be satire.
Any time I see comments about looking up stats but failing to watch the game I automatically default to thinking it’s a satirical comment, new user or not.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Mar 18, 2010 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions
It's got to be, because I really don't think anyone is actually that...dense.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Mar 18, 2010 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
his name is Omarfan
Omarfans don’t even exist, it must be satire.
by KeithsMoustache on Mar 18, 2010 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Ha...
His comment got me wondering how long he had been here and I didn’t even look at the name
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
If you're worried about media distractions, think about it this way:
Signing Elijah Dukes = Potential Media Circus
Mets Sucking Again = Definite Media Circus
by PeterFH on Mar 18, 2010 3:53 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
but Mets sucking --> Dukes doing something stupid out of anger --> media firestorm
by KeithsMoustache on Mar 18, 2010 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ok, fair enough
But as others have pointed out on this threat, if Dukes does do something really stupid out of anger, you can always release him.
But in that case...
if the Mets are sucking and there is a going to be a definite media circus, what does it matter if Dukes is in the mix too?
Just to clarify, I should have added
GMJ & Frenchy in the Starting Outfield w/o Elijah Dukes= Mets Sucking Again=Definite Media Circus
If one wants to believe that all of the constant rumors surrounding Willie Randolph was the reason why the Mets were a lot worse in the first half of 2008, as opposed to the second half...
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Mar 18, 2010 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
i dunno
i just really wanted to use the phrase “media firestorm”, it probably does serve as a distraction to be constantly reminded when things are going badly for a team though. Theres no way to know how much actual impact it has on the players, but i imagine it must be taxing.
by KeithsMoustache on Mar 18, 2010 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
This is part of playing in NY.
Learn to deal with it or fail.
Also, here’s a novel thought – how about the team has been consistently overhyped since 2006? I’m not saying they’ve sucked, in fact, I think they’ve been a very good team, but the Phils have generally been just as good if not better. Winning the division going away in 2006 was one of the worst things to happen to this organization, from a “managing expectation” perspective.
It may or may not have any effect on the team,
but it certainly makes watching far less enjoyable for me (espescially after the last three seasons). I’d just like to see a season where actual baseball is the focus, and any marginal upgrade Dukes may provide would likely also come with enough media frenzy that it would ruin it for me.
Pinella: Where th f*ck was that pitch at?
Ump: Lou, don't you know that you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?
Pinella: Where the f*ck was that pitch at, a$$h*le?
I respect that point-of-view
On the other hand, wouldn’t the possibility of Dukes developing into an offensive beast with the Mets be something enjoyable to watch?
It would, but I have just as much faith that either Pagan or Martinez could become that sort of impact player this season.
At least with those two there isn’t nearly as much risk of a Ron Artest/Stephen Jackson/Gil Arenas type incident. I’d rather see one of those two given major playing time than seeing them jumped by Dukes (hopefully only on the depth chart).
Remember to check the batteries in your sarcasm detector
F!, yes. Pagan, no.
I like Pagan and think he will be a solid contributor, but he is one of those guys whose ceiling and floor are very close at this point.
Do you realize that Pagan was on pace to be worth 4.5 WAR if he was given 600 PA's last year?
That’s better than Jason Bay or Jayson Werth were last year. The guy has a pretty decent ceiling.
Who cares how bad the Bay deal will look in 2013, the world is going to end in 2012 anyway
Yeah but that doesn't mean there's any chance he'll ever repeat that
or come close. Plenty of guys have random career years and never repeat that success again. I mean think about what Murphy was on pace for back in 08.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
He may not repeat that .358 wOBA, but he could easily be expected to repeat his defensive performance.
If he played the majority of that time in a corner, he would likely even improve it. His UZR/150 in the corners is almost 2 full wins above average, so he’s a fairly safe bet to be a league average outfielder on his glove alone.
Who cares how bad the Bay deal will look in 2013, the world is going to end in 2012 anyway
Yeah but that's not a pretty high ceiling
it’s solid but his offensive production made up for a good deal of his value if that regresses he’ll be a solid fourth outfielder but no where near the kind of ceiling Dukes, or even Frenchy I suppose, has.
"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'
it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.
I don't see the ceiling with Dukes anymore.
He’s gotten so big that he really is unlikely to be a plus defender even in a corner anymore, and I really don’t think he has enough power to make up for it. When he was coming up he was really fast which most thought would lead to him being a good defender in center, but he never really developed those instincts and he’s rapidly getting slower.
Who cares how bad the Bay deal will look in 2013, the world is going to end in 2012 anyway
What Gina said.
And just because he was on that pace doesn’t mean he would have kept up that pace.
Look, I like Pagan and have no problem with him starting in CF while Beltran is out. He’s solid and probably a bit underrated in general. However, I just don’t see him as having this great upside. He is what he is.
Or watch ESPN, TBS, Fox,
or read anything on that internet thing.
Who cares how bad the Bay deal will look in 2013, the world is going to end in 2012 anyway
Dukes Not In The Plans
I’ll pass on Dukes. He has had enough time to prove himself as a player and the results aren’t worth the off the field looks. Besides, if F-Mart keeps hitting the outfield is going to get crowded quickly.
Average Adam
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