John Maine the Reliever
Some random musings late at night...
Particularly of late, with a few stronger contenders for the back-end of the rotation making themselves known (Nelson Figueroa, Fernando Nieve, Jon Niese, and Hisanori Takahashi) and a limited amount of spots in the rotation open (1), I've been hearing a lot of people calling for starters who are already "entrenched" in the rotation to be removed, so that another spot opens up for another of the above mentioned players to be inserted in. The two names that are most tossed around are Oliver Perez and John Maine.
While removing the ever-erratic Perez from the rotation would be nice, it's fairly unanimous that the prospects of that are slim; after all, he's being paid $12 million dollars for whatever 2010 campaign he logs in to the record books. Given that he has a problem walking people, being prone to randomly lose his control at any given time, he isn't exactly prime bullpen material anyway, his salary aside.
The leaves John Maine. To get the salary part out of the way, in 2010, he's due to make $3.3 million dollars. Looking at his stats, he becomes fairly attractive for a reliever job- his "problem" thus far hasn't been getting players out, but rather, staying in the game, whether it be because of high pitch counts taking him out of games early, or injuries keeping him off the field completely. Generally speaking, he has a high strikeout rate (when he's healthy, which he currently is), making moving him into the bullpen even more attractive.
John Maine's biggest problem in the bullpen might be himself, however. On March 14th, Maine came into a Spring Training game against the Marlins in a preplanned relief appearance and got rocked for five runs in just two-thirds of an inning, walking two. According to Maine, his shoulder felt fine, and he was not "experimenting" with alterations to his delivery, or with new pitches for the upcoming season. Rather, he explained, "I just wasn't kind of that into it. It wasn't good. It's just I wasn't all that prepared. The feeling that it's not my game is the hardest thing. It's a waste of a day. I am a creature of habit. I have a certain routine. I was out of sync, off my routine. I just wasn't prepared. I didn't get the job done. It's the whole aspect of throwing before the game, sitting down and doing this."
So, in other words, Maine believed he performed so poorly because he was coming into the game as a reliever- not a starter-, a role that requires a different type of mentality. According to Sean Henn, who has served as both a starter and reliever for the Yankees, and their AAA Minor League team, "Mentally, it's a huge difference between coming out of the bullpen and starting. As a starter, there's not really a sense of urgency there. You know that as long as you go out there and throw six innings and only give up a couple runs, you know you've done your job and given your team a chance to win. [Out of the bullpen], you definitely have to lock it in a lot quicker. You have to have your stuff right then, and you can't really fiddle around for it, because you could walk a guy and that could be it."
While that's just one man's explanation of what is different between starting and relieving, it's evidence that a different mentality is needed to start games and to relieve games. So, on John Maine's part, it's not simply him trying to deflect his poor performance away from himself. He performed poorly, and chalked it up to him not having the proper mindset. Can the "proper mindset" be taught or otherwise learned?
Let's have a look at John Maine's career numbers when coming out of the bullpen. Admittedly, the window we're looking at here is fairly small, but it can't be fully discounted in regards to what we're looking for here. His first appearance as a reliever came on August 20th, 2005, against the Cleveland Indians. He threw two innings, and gave up one hit, struck out one, and walked one. His next relief appearance came three days later, on August 23rd, against the Angels. That time, he pitched five innings, giving up five hits and two earned runs, and striking out two. His final relief appearance came on July 15th, 2006, against the Cubs. He pitched a single inning, giving up a hit and walked one. So, in total, his stats out of the bullpen look like this:
IP: 8
ERA: 2.25
BB: 2
K: 3
It's important to note that those numbers come from actual MLB games, before September. So, it's not as if this data is skewed because of September call-ups, or because it comes from exhibition games where the teams he faced were not composed of MLB-level talent. He's had some level of success, however limited and long ago, in the bullpen. So, for the talk of him not feeling comfortable pitching in relief of another pitcher, he has had limited success doing just that.
So, this leaves the question, if Maine's recent bout with ineffectiveness was due to him pitching in relief, instead of starting, is Maine cut out being a reliever? Was Maine simply lucky? Did he never have that "reliever's mentality", but trudged through those innings pitching decently enough, lucking out that he didn't perform poorly and embarrass himself? Or, perhaps, did he have the "reliever's mentality", but forget it since becoming a full-time starting pitcher, instead of a prospect on the cusp of the Minor Leagues and the Major Leagues?
There probably isn't an actual answer, other than to put Maine in the bullpen and see what happens. Regardless of whether or not he actually is effective pitching out of the bullpen, it would signal something more important (at least to me)- a paradigm shift, in terms of the way the team is run. While, personally, I have become a fan of John Maine- primarily because of the affection my mom showers upon him because she finds him cute, and because his near no-hitter against the Marlins in 2007 was, perhaps, the most exciting baseball game I've watched/listened to in real-time- for too long, the Mets have seemingly been waiting on Maine to be healthy and put up a good season, for Oliver Perez to be healthy (and effective) and put up a good season, and so on. Should one (or the other) be shifted into the bullpen in favor of a more deserving (at the time, based on current performance) pitcher, it would show that the organization has realized that it shouldn't be sitting around on it's proverbial ass, waiting for all of the stars to align so that things end with a happy ending. The years of a cheap Jose Reyes and David Wright tick on whether or not John Maine, Oliver Perez, or whoever else is injured, ineffective, or whatever other problems ail them. Carlos Beltran and Johan Santana get older by the day, regardless of whether or not John Maine, Oliver Perez, or whoever else is injured, ineffective, or whatever other problems ail them. The "glory days" of 2006/2007 (most of 2007, anyway) are almost a half a decade in the past now, and we can't continue going on as if they were yesterday.
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Nice writeup, but I can't really get on board,
even though Maine has been banged up the past seasons, he’s put up league average FIPS (4.57 and 4.40.) Concurrently, even with his injuries his velocity has been pretty stable the past couple of seasons (91, 91.2, 92.1 and 91.3) which is a great sign. I’ve been a big Maine fan, so I’m biased, but I just see upside in Maine that I don’t see with Figgy, Nieve or Hisa and feel like moving him to the bullpen based on spring training is very silly.
I'm not on board moving him to the bullpen either.
I was weighing the merits of moving a starter to the bullpen, to make room for a better-performing starting pitcher this Spring (ie, Figueroa & Niese, Niese & Tak2, Figueroa & Tak2, whatever combination), and Maine seemed to be the most likely. Really, I was just analyzing the entire “bullpen mentality” thing.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Mar 23, 2010 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions
time will tell
If he starts in the rotation but doesn’t make it deep in many games due to pitch counts, then it’s time to consider this.
I don’t buy the “mentality” issue. Your job as a professional baseball player is to help your team win games. You’re not getting paid for your ego.
What if the pitcher's got his gameday rituals?
Or if he just needs a long time to warm up for a game, like Trachsel? Not being able to go through his normal routines would probably have a negative effect on the pitcher’s state of mind.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Mar 24, 2010 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Turk Wendell
had lots of rituals, was a starter in the minors, became a reliever in the majors with (most of) the same rituals.
"I've been trying transcendental meditation, and that helps me be passive and wait on the curve. I've got to find something else to hit the slider." - George (The Stork) Theodore
Perez is a better option for the pen
They should maybe consider both as relievers, but I think Perez is more likely. Even the three reasons you gave against it really all argue in favor of a pen move.
1. The salary is sunk cost. A truly frugal team would rather give the starting spot to a cheaper player, because developing a starter will save them more in the long run. No matter what you do with Perez he’ll have little trade value, so why not put him in the pen where you get the best return on your investment?
2. His lack of command also argues for the pen rather than rotation. Players routinely walk fewer batters when working out of the pen.
3. His flightiness reflects an inability to concentrate for extended periods. That’s a problem for a SP, but it’s far easier to focus for short stretches coming out of the pen. Ollie is a spaceman, but so are most good relievers, and most good closers.
Really, everything about Perez has always profiled as a very good pen arm. His third pitch sucks. And his fastball, while only average now, would likely be plus in short relief. As a SP, he lacks the third pitch, he lacks the needed command, and he lacks the durability or ability to sustain his stuff. His mechanics are also arguably best suited to more limited innings.
For me, everything there, build, mechanics, repertoire, and mentality, screams short relief. Limit him to throwing two plus pitches in brief stints and he’ll be fine.
Really the Mets should even consider going with Santana, Niese, Pelfrey, Figueroa, Takahashi to start the season, with a pen of K-rod, Parnell, Feliciano, Perez, Maine, Nieve, Igarashi. If you were sure Maine’s shoulder was 100% though, you would have to flip him with Figueroa.
I disagree.
I don’t believe in labeling Perez (or Castillo) sunk costs, and “exiling” them to where ever (the bench, the pen, outright release) based on the notion that there’s no way in hell the situation gets better. When you boil Oliver Perez down, that’s the problem- because he’s shown dominance in 2004/2007, and hints/streaks of dominance since, the thought is always in the back of our minds (mine, at least) that he regains some sense of what clicked in 2004, and he pitches more to his 2007 level (2004 was too long ago).
I don’t think Perez’ “mentality”, or whatever it can be called, would suit him better in the bullpen than in the starting rotation. Even in situations where he’s supposed to be “concentrating”, he walks people. Often times, in droves. I don’t think that there’s any reason this would change if he was throwing out of the bullpen. And, walks in the bullpen are less good than walks given while starting.
Who would you be more comfortable with coming out of the bullpen, in the seventh inning, where we have a one-run lead, against whatever non-specific team? Perez or Maine. Personally, I’d be more comfortable with Maine, not because he screams out “I’m a lot better than Perez”, but because he seems more likely to result in netting an out instead of having a man reach base (in my opinion, anyway). Maine also has minimal relieving experience, whereas Perez has none, for whatever that’s worth (which, admittedly, is not all that much).
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Mar 23, 2010 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Sunk costs
First sunk costs is sunk costs. Perez and Castillo contracts are sunk costs whether they get better or not. Castillo could hit 40 HR this year and be the NL MVP. The $6M he is paid is still sunk cost.
So it’s not a matter of can they get better, it’s just a question of whether you really think the upside and likelihood of that is better than other options. If you think it’s more likely for Perez than for Nieve, Niese, Takahashi, or for that matter Mejia, then I just disagree.
Part of it though is I don’t see much chance of a return to 2004. I don’t think we’ll ever see that fastball again. Lot’s of guys hit their peak velocity between 19-22 years old and never get it back.
I also don’t understand the idea that walks in the pen are less good than walks given while starting. Are HR allowed also more costly in the pen than starting? The only argument I see there is leverage, but that is more than offset by the difference in innings thrown. Otherwise, teams would move all their best pitchers to the pen.
As for which guy I’d rather have in the 7th with a 1 run lead, I’d pick Perez as more likely to get the out there.
by acerimusdux on Mar 24, 2010 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Wel,, have to agree to disagree then.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Mar 25, 2010 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I see where you're going with this but....
let’s make sure someone asks Maine if he would be into it.
you know what I'm sayin' ?
just don't have someone to start in his place.
Figgy woul dhave been good, but now with him gone we have Neive to take Perez’s spot. Maybe Takahashi takes Maine’s
Maine to the pen is simply right.
His arm isn’t built to pitch 180-210 innings a year. It just isn’t. Perez is simply a waste of time and runs at this point. The Mets rotation should have been
Santana
Pelfrey
Niese
Figueroa
Takahashi/Nieve/Misch with Maine as a possible spot starter beginning around June 1 if his arm holds up.
His spiel in the article sounds more like the spew of a guy who knows he may be headed for the pen and will say pretty much anything to duck that. From a financial standpoint, the difference between being an average ML starter and an average ML reliever might be $4-5 mil a year, or $40-50 million over the course of a career. Given that, what on earth could we expect Maine to say when asked to try a stint out of the pen? What would you say?
Well, it should have been Santana Pelfrey Pineiro Marquis Niese, but that’s over and done with.

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