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Around SBN: The Ten Worst Swings Of The 2011 Season

Jenrry Mejia, The Mets' Bullpen, And The Media

Without naming any names, certain reporters covering the Mets have been expressing their support of the Mets' plan to start Jenrry Mejia in the bullpen and arguing with fans about it on twitter. Watching these arguments unfold, it's painfully clear they don't understand the fan position and think fans are missing something that's painfully obvious to them. Here, I will explain the arguments for Jenrry Mejia NOT starting in the major-league bullpen and how it interacts with the arguments of the beat writers, which at the moment, are not clashing in a constructive way. 

The fundamental premise underlying all arguments for keeping Mejia out of the bullpen is that relievers are inherently less valuable than starters, and by a very significant margin. This gap results from two easily observable realities: relievers pitch less often and the average reliever is much better than the average starter. Your typical set-up man might pitch 60 innings or so in a season, about a third of a typical third starter. Also, the average ERA or equivalent stat for relievers typically hovers around 4.50, while the average starter is closer to 5.50 ERA. Thus, in theory, adequate relievers are much easier to find, even though the Mets have struggled to do so in recent years (but that's another discussion).

Not surprisingly, then, statistics that measure a player's cumulative value to his team over the course of the season rate relievers as a group as much less valuable. Wins Above Replacement (WAR), the most sophisticated statistic in measuring values, has three components: the pitcher's ERA, the ERA of the average AAA replacement he will be measured against, and the number of innings he's pitched. The three most-valuable relievers last season, measured by WAR, were:

Star-divide

By contrast, here are the top three starters:

It's important to note that these statistics do NOT treat all innings as equal. A leverage factor is individually calculated for each player and factored into the calculation. A closer that pitches often in the 9th or comes in often with runners on base will receive credit for the situation. Now, going back to those top three relievers, here are starters of near equivalent value last season:

And for emphasis:

I will admit that these statistics may underrate relievers a little, as factoring in high-leverage innings is not an exact science. When the best closer, however, represents less than a third of the value of the best starter, clearly there's a disparity. 

This demonstration is not necessarily an argument for Jenrry Mejia making the team as a starter, however. When Mejia starts this season as a reliever, he will be afforded no opportunity to develop his curveball and changeup, essential to his long-term development as a starter (see: Pelfrey, Mike). While the Mets may indicate that the long-term plan remains using him at a starter, this move retards his development as a starter by at least a season. It also starts his arbitration clock, meaning he would begin arbitration and free agency a year earlier than if he just spent two months in the minors. That's potentially two lost seasons of an ace pitching on major-league minimum. And for what? An extra 2 wins in 2010 at absolute most (WAR is scaled to wins, hence the name). Knowing that Kiko Calero would likely assume the 8th inning job in his absence, however, pushing the whole bullpen totem down a notch, and preventing someone like Sean Green from taking the high-leverage situations Mejia would be assuming, the win contribution is likely much less than 2, probably under one win. 

Getting really hypothetical, that's about $1.5 million dollars of value at the current going-rate for a win at the expense of two $15 million dollar value-seasons in the future (assuming Mejia's potential is 5 WAR as a starter). The Mets would be gaining some value now but losing 20-times that in the future. Or in more concrete terms, +1 win this season in exchange for +5 wins each in 2011 and 2012. 

So, members of the sporting press at large, that's the reason we want Mejia to start in the minors. Understanding that, the counter-arguments to anything supporting him in the bullpen should be obvious. But for the sake of discussion...

Lennon1_medium

A set-up man was never the difference between a playoff spot and a 2nd place finish, especially not in this division. The Phillies won the pennant last year with their closer actively trying to blow games. 

Lennon2_medium

First, the Mets bullpen is probably their strong suit this season. Just because it is "unsettled" isn't  a bad thing: it means newcomers are challenging established players with their surprisingly good play. Secondly, no one is arguing that he wouldn't make the bullpen much better, the long-term cost is just staggering. 

Popper1_medium

Holy cow, if only Mejia only becomes Mariano Rivera...but he doesn't throw a pitch comparable to Mo's cutter, nor does he have the command that allows Rivera to get away with it. Also, Rivera is great, but by nature of being the best of an inherently overrated group, he's always been very overrated. Mejia trying to become Rivera would be a very nice plan B in my mind, if he can't develop secondary pitches. 

Popper2_medium

False choice. If Green makes the team, he'll be in a mop-up/6th inning role regardless of whether Mejia makes the team, making his performance essentially irrelevant to how the team does. The added value of Mejia is whoever is the next to last currently on the bullpen pecking order (Parnell or Takahashi) minus Sean Green, which is a coin flip. 

Two other names that get compared to Mejia, mostly errantly: 

Joba Chamberlain: The difference between Jenrry Mejia and Joba Chamberlain is the drop-off between Joba's fastball coming out of the bullpen vs. being a starter. If anything, Chamberlain is a reason why starting starter prospects in the bullpen blows up. And on the Mets, Joba would definitely start.

Johan Santana: Johan is a special situation, in that he was a non-prospect, late-bloomer, whose second best pitch, a changeup, was already developed when he was in the bullpen. And because the changeup is such a good weapon against both lefties and righties, he never really needed to worry about his slider being that great. 

I appreciate the beat writers responding to the fans, maybe mostly out of boredom in PSL, but twitter isn't the best place to have an exchange of ideas and hopefully this post prevents future confusion. 

Partly inspired by this LL post.

Comment 81 comments  |  7 recs  | 

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I, for one, don't understand the general media's "complacency" with it all.

It’s not as if they are part of the organization (with the exception of Kevin Burkhardt, and Marty Noble, maybe), so they don’t need to toe the corporate line, if there is a theoretical corporate line that needs to be toed. They don’t need to look at things from the short-term perspective, which is the only perspective that Mejia-in-the-bullpen is a good idea. I’d figure that, since the majority cover the team over the span of years, the long-term perspective would come most easily to them.

And, also, given the exchange last summer between Omar and Adam Rubin, I figured that, for some time into the immediate future, they’d be wanting to contradict and second guess the moves that the team made at every instance they could, for “going after one of their own”.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Mar 23, 2010 6:25 PM EDT reply actions  

I disagree

when I read about this situation last fall, it made me realize that there is a distinct advantage in fluffing the team you cover and that critical words make for an ugly environment.

President of the Ramses Barden Fan Club

Fact on Villanova Sports

by Hoyadestroya85 on Mar 23, 2010 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

I actually took that article totally differently.

Pearlmen doesn’t even provide a link to the student newspaper article so that readers can make an informed judgement about the subject matter and it’s coverage. To me it looks like he’s simply “bullying” a lower level football coach who’s team seems to feel they are getting shitty coverage by the university press. It rubs me as the pot calling the kettle black.

Who cares how bad the Bay deal will look in 2013, the world is going to end in 2012 anyway

by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 23, 2010 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Seriously? Hauck is completely in the wrong here

This is the article:

http://www.montanakaimin.com/index.php/articles/article/allegations_against_griz_football_players_surface/488

His reactions are childish and absurd. It’s not an ESPN article, it’s not for SI, it’s for the SCHOOL NEWSPAPER

I write for my school’s paper, and I would be appalled if any of the coaches talked to me like that, or tried to cover my recorder

by Syler on Mar 23, 2010 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hauck may be a dick, but Pearlman comes off as quite the arrogant POS as well.

How do you write this about someone:

A couple days ago, I had never heard of the man known as Bobby Hauck.
This might come as a shock to Bobby Hauck, in that homo Sapiens of his ilk -egomaniacal collegiate football coaches who go by boyhood nicknames, speak of “The Program,” puff out their chests and wear free shirts provided by sneaker companies - believe themselves to be otherworldly morphings of John Rambo, George Patton, Albert Einstein and Vince Lombardi

and follow it up with this:
Here’s who’s next: me.
I am a columnist for Sports Illustrated’s Web site. I have been gifted with a national platform that the Kaimin’s fine student journalists lack. Hence, I would like to ask Bobby Hauck — rugged football coach — why he and his bully brethren feel the need to flash their tougher-than-dirt feathers toward student reporters while always — always — eagerly responding to the calls and requests of mainstream media representatives? Why, as a state and university employee, he thinks it’s OK to publicly humiliate 20-year-old collegiates? Why any sane human being presumably hoping to one day land a big coaching job would ever, ever, ever behave in such an immature fashion?

He’s calling out Hauck for frezzing out the student paper but not the MSM a sentence before admitting that Hauck didn’t return his call either. He doesn’t link to the original article so that readers can reach an informed judgement on their own, and the only parties he seemed to interview were either former reporters or current writers at the student paper (At the very least someone from the university should have been contacted). Pearlman also makes the statement:
The content of the article hasn’t been questioned, and the reporter made certain to contact Hauck and the players before publication.

Which would lead the reader to believe that the players were actually guilty of the incident (in which charges were never filed, so who knows).
Hauck was wrong for his treatment of the student paper, but Pearlman calling out Hauck as a bully while he himself is acting the part is laughable, and at the very least he owes the two accused students in this case an apology because he very much paints them as a guilty party.

Who cares how bad the Bay deal will look in 2013, the world is going to end in 2012 anyway

by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 23, 2010 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pearlman is a hack

Hauck sounds like he’s probably a bit of an ass, too, but I never, ever take a word Pearlman writes seriously. He wrote for my college’s paper when he was a student there, and if I were the football coach there, I’d have boycotted it just to avoid dealing with Pearlman.

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Mar 23, 2010 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

For the sake of full disclosure

I was talking more about how towing the company line can be beneficial to you when you want to get answers. I know Pearlman is a dick but the fact that I linked to his article is inconsequential. I simply linked to the most scathing about Bobby Hauck, a notorious asshole.. it just so happens that it was written by a notorious asshole.

President of the Ramses Barden Fan Club

Fact on Villanova Sports

by Hoyadestroya85 on Mar 23, 2010 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think you guys are all missing the media's interest in this

it’s not complacency or a willingness to stroke the team, it’s that they see a long-term controversial story. The media, for all its ignorance, is not dumb: they know, just like with Joba, there are a lot of people out here who vehemently disagree with turning Mejia into a reliever. They also know there are a lot of people who strongly believe a dominant reliever is more valuable than a starter. They’ve milked the Joba debate for just about all it’s worth, and they see the writing on the wall that the Yankees know what they’re doing with him, for the most part. This is their opportunity to stoke a new bullpen vs. starter debate that they can milk, and luckily for them this organization is far, far dumber than the one in the Bronx and will probably be as wishy-washy about it as the media wants them to be.

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Mar 23, 2010 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

thank you

for verbalizing my thoughts in a day where i’ve heard stories about mejia being urged to shelf his secondary stuff, mejia being “the next joba” (as if it’s a good thing), mejia maybe going back to starting but only if the 8th inning doesn’t work out, and so on.

if all of this actually does go down, this will be the most disenfranchised that i’ve been with the mets organization in my life.

by Rob Castellano on Mar 23, 2010 6:26 PM EDT reply actions  

Lidge
The Phillies won the pennant last year with their closer actively trying to blow games.

Good stuff Sam.

by pricedoutoftheciti on Mar 23, 2010 6:26 PM EDT reply actions  

I really hope you're a journalism major.

Having a sensible individual cover the Mets would be awesome.

This is pretty much exactly how I, and the rest of this community I’m sure, feels about this situation.

by Evan_S on Mar 23, 2010 6:31 PM EDT reply actions  

Well

That was sort of my plan, but I guess I could tolerate a co-owner.

by Evan_S on Mar 23, 2010 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I really hope someone who posts on Amazin Avenue

is a journalist. Just to make it balanced.

"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"

by firejerrynow on Mar 23, 2010 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hope if we're dumb enough to do this, we're at least smart enough to send him to winterball this year.

At least that way he’ll get over 100 innings and get some work on his secondary stuff.

Who cares how bad the Bay deal will look in 2013, the world is going to end in 2012 anyway

by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 23, 2010 6:35 PM EDT reply actions  

Jerry will follow him down that

and scream that’s poor every time he throws a breaking ball.

"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'

it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.

by Gina on Mar 23, 2010 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

WAR...

I didn’t think that WAR counted leverage. My understanding is that WAR undercounts raw reliever value… but reliever chaining is why it’s not such a big deal.

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2009/4/29/856308/bullpen-chaining-and-reliever-war

Your points all still stand, though. Good piece.

by sjohnson125 on Mar 23, 2010 6:38 PM EDT reply actions  

fangraphs WAR does

fWAR, but not all WAR calculations do.

"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'

it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.

by Gina on Mar 23, 2010 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Writers like it cuz it might be exciting

probably the same reason the mets like it. They’re imagining buzz, excitement, absurd overvaluing. I mean, remember Joba? Dominance is fun.

Winning is more fun, so in the end they’re wrong, but this shortsighted greediness doesn’t surprise at all.

by Pack Bringley on Mar 23, 2010 6:43 PM EDT reply actions  

Plus

Life generally teaches that it’s better to be really good in your niche than mediocre extending yourself. It isn’t a bad lesson necessarily; it just doesn’t square here. The closer mystique fulfills a fan’s need to have dominating heroes in a sport where guys hit .300ish.

by Pack Bringley on Mar 23, 2010 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

exactly

this is too juicy for too many stakeholders to expect them NOT to root hard for him to come north.

like you said, a young extremely dominant player sells papers, fires up radio listeners, etc. and unfortunately that unbridled fervor stretches to our own FO who clearly lust for that buzz, the additional tickets sold and even the additional job security for manuel and minaya.

that said, it is incumbent on a smart/disciplined organization that when they discover a shiny toy to be able to control themselves enough to insure the maximum utility of said toy. obviously the mets are more like a 5 year old who can’t contain themselves and grab it the minute it becomes available, risking destroying it in the process.

by Rob Castellano on Mar 23, 2010 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

How much buzz will it create for Manuel and Minaya

when the team is still God awful, or at least decidedly mediocre. It’s unlikely Meija will have much of a impact on this team win wise.

"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'

it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.

by Gina on Mar 23, 2010 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I not sure either.

My guess is that they think it’ll be like 07 and 08 (not the collapsing part though) because the team is pretty similar in terms on the players. Or they think they’ll be around .500, but then why didn’t the Mets sign any short term solutions in FA? It’s impossible to get inside the minds of Jerry and Omar.

by EtSuKe on Mar 23, 2010 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well done Sam

I’ve been trying to explain to friends why this is a terrible idea. This wraps everything up nicely. Too bad Jerry and Omar don’t read this page

"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage

by blueandorange4life on Mar 23, 2010 6:57 PM EDT reply actions  

Fixed

Too bad Jerry and Omar don’t read this page

Who cares how bad the Bay deal will look in 2013, the world is going to end in 2012 anyway

by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 23, 2010 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

readin's false hustle

Omar and Jerry just look at spreadsheets/data/books and let their gut tell them what it says.

"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'

it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.

by Gina on Mar 23, 2010 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

You know...

In 1982, the Mets had a pretty impressive-looking youngster in their farm system. He did REALLY good in lower-levels of the Minor Leagues. The bullpen, that year, wasn’t all that great (it wasn’t terrible, but), and going into the next year, 1983, the Mets probably could have fortified the bullpen with that young kid (as we know now, the 1983 bullpen was pretty decent, and didn’t need any fortification, but that’s looking back in hindsight). They could have slotted that young rookie with a really good fastball and a really good curveball into the bullpen. If they did, imagine how history would have been different.

Now, Doc Gooden and Jenrry Mejia are leagues apart, in terms of actual skill, maturity, and whatever else. But, the point is, being shortsighted can definitely come back to bite you in the ass. If the Mets said to themselves, “Let’s put this young kid in the bullpen for the time being, tell him not to work on his breaking stuff, and just rear back and blaze those fastballs to the plate”, imagine how Mets history would have been different…

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Mar 23, 2010 6:58 PM EDT reply actions  

this

is the exact argument i’ve been using w/ friends, who all seem to get it right away.

it’s sad that our own FO, w/ the ungodly amount of resources at their disposal, clearly does not.

by Rob Castellano on Mar 23, 2010 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gooden would have been a dominant closer for years and years and years?

instead of a flameout cautionary tale?

I’m kidding, mostly. I want Mejia in the minors, starting. If the Mets use him in the ’pen, I give up.

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Mar 23, 2010 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

I disagree on Green...

he SHOULD be in the minors (or even better with another organization), but Jerry will keep running him out there in close games to hit a batsman, walk three and give up a couple of hits and then pull him like he did last year. I think the only reason Green is on the roster is so the Mets can claim they “got something” from the Seattle deal, which is as much of a sunk cost as Ollie’s contract.

by Cranky50 on Mar 23, 2010 7:00 PM EDT reply actions  

Good luck with this fight fellas.

Your cross town brethren have been dealing with the same bullshit argument about putting promising young pitchers in the pen because it is a short term improvement for a few years now. It’s only a matter of time before a Mets beat writer fires off some diatribe about bloggers wearing pajamas in their mother’s basements. THen someone else will write a wanna be pithy article mocking some of the SABR abbreviations like WAR and UZR, while feigning indignation about how computers and acronyms are taking over the game they grew up with and love.

Have fun, might as well start beating your keybard against your face now.

Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.

by CasanovaWong on Mar 23, 2010 7:26 PM EDT reply actions  

another cautionary tale, brandon morrow

from fangraphs in this article:

…Because Seattle’s former regime allowed Morrow to throw reallyreallyreally hard in the general direction of home plate out of the ‘pen, instead of building stamina and improving his breaking stuff as a minor league starter, the 6-3 righty remains green as grass.

sounds a bit similar huh?

by Rob Castellano on Mar 23, 2010 7:26 PM EDT reply actions  

I don't buy the "building stamina" part of it.

I think at some point limiting innings at Mejia’s age could be a very good thing (as he’s probably still got open growth plates in both major joints). I think keeping him to around 100 innings (assuming he either spends some time in the minors or pitches winterball) at this age is fine. The development of his breaking stuff is what concerns me the most with this.

Who cares how bad the Bay deal will look in 2013, the world is going to end in 2012 anyway

by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 23, 2010 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed.

Too much, too early was one of the things that fucked up Doc in the long term.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Mar 23, 2010 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I've never heard that euphamism before.

I know exactly what you’re saying, but that’s a new one.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Mar 23, 2010 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would like to see a little more than 100 next year.

Another problem I foresee if Mejia goes to the bullpen is people expecting him to pitch just as well in the rotation as in the bullpen, like Joba. People don’t seem to understand that it’s harder to start than relieve.

by EtSuKe on Mar 23, 2010 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think that's just general fan stupidity, which we're going to have to deal with in NY regardless.

Small markets don’t seem to have the same level of competition in the media, which leads to less stupid arguments being presented to the fanbase.

Who cares how bad the Bay deal will look in 2013, the world is going to end in 2012 anyway

by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 23, 2010 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think there's a difference between building stamina to go 5-6 innings a day

with long rests in between and pitching 100+ innings. When I think stamina I think being able to maintain velocity through 100 pitches, 5-6 innings sometimes in the heat, not necessarily being able to pitch 120+ innings in one year. He could get overused pitching nearly every other day by Jerry and still build no stamina and put more stress on his arm than 100 starting innings could do if they’re spaced out properly.

"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'

it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.

by Gina on Mar 23, 2010 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Stamina in that sense is not something that takes years to develop

The ability to throw 100+ pitches over the course of a single outing is simple conditioning work, and something that just about any pitcher could build towards in the course of a single offseason. We take college kids who are the same age and convert them to starters on a yearly basis (although this is the first year I’ve been at a school without a baseball program). The only long term “stamina” that Omar should be concerned with is the raw volume of work that Mejia can maintain, and that certainly should be watched closely if he’s in the pen.

Who cares how bad the Bay deal will look in 2013, the world is going to end in 2012 anyway

by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 23, 2010 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Another thing is that Mejia might actually be bad this year.

He very little experience with only around 40 innings in AA. I think a little too much is being determined from spring training,

by EtSuKe on Mar 23, 2010 7:33 PM EDT reply actions  

yea

I think he’ll be fine, but there’s a significant chance he sucks, which is probably best case at this point.

by Sam Page on Mar 23, 2010 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

that's what I'm hoping for

but how much you wanna bet he sucks, so Omar decides he’s just a relief prospect now, and trades him for a middling #3-type starter at the deadline

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Mar 23, 2010 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Seriously

Is anyone willing to stand outside of the SNY studios as they film Sportsnite/Loudmouths this week with a sign abhorring the call up of Jenrry Mejia? I plan on doing it this week, if anyone’s interested. More people would be for the best.

Trying to believe is my full-time occupation.

by Preach19 on Mar 23, 2010 7:44 PM EDT reply actions  

Instead of an Amazing Avenue Get-Together, an Amazing Avenue Sit-In Protest!

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Mar 23, 2010 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

We just need a place to sit

Trying to believe is my full-time occupation.

by Preach19 on Mar 24, 2010 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't have so much of an issue with this if:

A) We had addressed the rotation this winter to make ourselves into a legitimate contender
B) There weren’t plenty of other good options who would be left out of the pen by adding Mejia
C) He was already on the 40 man roster and not causing us to cut somebody to do this

Who cares how bad the Bay deal will look in 2013, the world is going to end in 2012 anyway

by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 23, 2010 7:58 PM EDT reply actions  

Would we really be in bad shape with 7 of these 8 in the pen?

K-rod, Calero, Igarashi, Takahashi, Figgy, Parnell, Nieve, and Feliciano? Regardless of which 7 we choose, I’d still be thrilled with the bullpen options.

Who cares how bad the Bay deal will look in 2013, the world is going to end in 2012 anyway

by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 23, 2010 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly

This is the first year since 2006 where I haven’t really worried about filling the bullpen with 7 decent options (none of whom need be named Henry. Or indeed Jenrry.)

by deadspy3 on Mar 23, 2010 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

And yet Popper somehow feels that Mejia will be keeping Green out of the setup role...

Who cares how bad the Bay deal will look in 2013, the world is going to end in 2012 anyway

by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 23, 2010 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

These Beat writers don't follow the minors

They have no idea how badly they are selling Mejia short by imagining him the next Mariano Rivera. They’ve likely never seen him pitch before this spring.

Mejia is probably the best prospect the Mets have had since Dwight Gooden. In 10 years watching St. Lucie, the only guy I saw who was maybe as exciting was Jose Reyes. Guys like Wright and Kazmir were really a notch below this kid as far as ceiling/upside.

You just don’t throw a talent like that into the pen. The kid would likely be our ace next season if he’s allowed to develop properly.

by acerimusdux on Mar 23, 2010 11:24 PM EDT reply actions  

It seems simple enough,

200 high-quality innings gets you more value than 60 great innings. Although, it angers me that Omar would seemingly cave in to Jerry/media pressure when he didn’t need to.

by Brian. on Mar 24, 2010 12:01 AM EDT reply actions  

One comparison I haven't really seen explained

and which could potentially be the most relevant (and heartening, if the Mets really do call him up) is Pedro Martinez. Pedro was a starter (a dominant one) in the minors in 1991, and was pretty good in 1992. He spent all of 1993 pitching out of the Dodgers bullpen as a 21 year old (he did throw 107 innings), before getting traded to the Expos and turned back into a starter. We know the rest of that story.

Does anyone know a) why the Dodgers used him out of the ’pen, b) how well developed his secondary pitchers were, c) how much difficulty he had stretching back out in 1994? He only threw 144 IP, but that was the strike year, Greg Maddux led the league with 202 IP.

Again, like with Rivera, it’s probably not a great idea to say “hey, one of the 5 greatest pitchers of all time had success like this, so let’s do it with Mejia,” but at least there is a small ray of light that even if the Mets try to screw this up, maybe Mejia is just so talented that they can’t and he turns into the next Pedro.

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Mar 24, 2010 12:41 AM EDT reply actions  

I'm not sure how much talent will matter

if Jerry yells at him every time he tries to throw a breaking balls.

"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'

it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.

by Gina on Mar 24, 2010 2:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think that's the part of this that pisses me off the most.

Parnell and Pelfrey are one pitch pitchers that have been throwing their secondary stuff over 50% of the time this spring, why the hell would you not take the same approach with the 20 year old? They are handling Pelf and Parnell perfectly and Mejia with their moron-glasses on.

Who cares how bad the Bay deal will look in 2013, the world is going to end in 2012 anyway

by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 24, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

It really doesn't make sense

they understand that pelfrey needs to throw more breaking balls, and are considering sending Parnell down to work on his…yet at the same time Jerry thinks his cutter is enough? I mean even Jerry has to be smart enough to realize that doesn’t make any damn sense right?

"We have a plan, and our plan, I like our plan'

it's Omar's world, we're just livin in it.

by Gina on Mar 24, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well

A Pedro Martinez comp, while I’ve dreamed of it many times for Mejia, is a best case scenario for pretty much any pitcher ever.

by Evan_S on Mar 24, 2010 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Earl Weaver used to say

that the best place for a rookie was long relief. Of course the 8th inning is not long relief either.

"I've been trying transcendental meditation, and that helps me be passive and wait on the curve. I've got to find something else to hit the slider." - George (The Stork) Theodore

by StorkFan on Mar 24, 2010 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

How about . . .

. . . putting Mejia in the big league rotation and moving Maine to the bullpen?

by Nomenclaturist on Mar 24, 2010 1:06 AM EDT reply actions  

Mo Rivera

Maybe I’m taking crazy pills, but can someone please explain to me why everyone assumes that Rivera only has the cutter? I HAVE SEEN HIM THROW OTHER PITCHES. It’s true! If Rivera falls behind 2-0 in the count, he throws a get-me-over-curveball (usually to the outside part of the plate) that no one swings at because everyone is deathly afraid of the cutter. When he gets hit hard, it’s usually because the batters are waiting on that curveball.

On the flip side, let’s assume for a minute that Mejia is the next Rivera. Wouldn’t we want him to develop another nasty second pitch anyway? Why, at the age of 20, are we telling him not to develop a second pitch? He could be even better than Rivera with a just-as-nasty second pitch.

If there's ever a riot at Citi Field and Oliver Perez was the starter, I started the riot.

by meigs1414 on Mar 24, 2010 8:44 AM EDT reply actions  

No no no

You’ve got it all wrong. The team wants him to develop a second pitch, but only at some time in the future after Jerry’s job has been saved.

"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Mar 24, 2010 9:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

oh right

How silly of me. Retract the second paragraph. That’s poor, meigs, that’s poor.

If there's ever a riot at Citi Field and Oliver Perez was the starter, I started the riot.

by meigs1414 on Mar 24, 2010 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

Mariano Rivera most definitely does not throw a curveball.

Cutter and a 4 seam. That’s it. He does not throw any off speed pitches.

Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.

by CasanovaWong on Mar 24, 2010 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Is there a large difference in speeds between the two pitches?

Although I can’t speak to how he pitches now, when I was up at school five years ago, my roomate was a big yankee fan and since SNY did not exist but YES did, we watched a good amount of yankee games. This “curveball” had a lot of movement BUT it was about 10 mph slower than his other pitch, which we both assumed to be his cutter. So we called it a “cuverball” due to it’s movement and lack of speed in comparsion to his cutter.

If you can clear that up, that would be great becuse I am rather confused and I’ll assume you watch Mo a lot more than I do.

If there's ever a riot at Citi Field and Oliver Perez was the starter, I started the riot.

by meigs1414 on Mar 24, 2010 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

According to Fangraphs he used to throw a slider very infrequently.

He seems to have scrapped it in 2005 however.

Who cares how bad the Bay deal will look in 2013, the world is going to end in 2012 anyway

by Stephen Schmidt on Mar 24, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, obviously I have not been able to watch every single game since 2002

But I would be absolutely SHOCKED if he actually threw any of the other pitches (slider/changeup) that fangraphs says he did.

Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.

by CasanovaWong on Mar 24, 2010 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

hmm maybe that's what i saw.

If there's ever a riot at Citi Field and Oliver Perez was the starter, I started the riot.

by meigs1414 on Mar 25, 2010 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

5 years ago he was probably sitting 94 ish with the cutter

And about the same with the 4 seam.I can honestly say that he has never thrown a curveball while being the Mariano Rivera we all know. Maybe when he was a starter, years and years ago in the early 90’s he would throw a curve ball, but not now, not since he was put in the bullpen. Is it possible you’re thinking about someone else?

Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.

by CasanovaWong on Mar 24, 2010 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's completely possible we saw a slider instead of a curveball

and I have been thinking it was a curveball. Whatever. I guess my main point is what they are doing Mejia is insane, the comparsion to Rivera is not correct and I hate Jerry Manuel.

Thank you your input.

If there's ever a riot at Citi Field and Oliver Perez was the starter, I started the riot.

by meigs1414 on Mar 25, 2010 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hahah, no problem. Nice Sumation.

Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.

by CasanovaWong on Mar 25, 2010 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

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