Random Doc Gooden Poll

by James Kannengieser on Apr 12, 2010 10:45 PM EDT

With the Mets off today, I re-read Rob Neyer's Big Book of Baseball Legends, a recommended collection of baseball mythbusting featuring an excellent foreword by Bill James. Rob investigated an anecdote from Dwight Gooden's book, Heat, and also looked at an excerpt from Mel Stottlemyre's book, Pride and Pinstripes. Here is former Mets pitching coach Stottlemyre on the handling of young Doc:

From the start we were careful not to overload Doc. We put him at the back end of the rotation, so that his first start would be in Houston, rather than New York, and we were careful to limit his innings.

The Mets didn't really limit Gooden's innings though. He threw 764.1 pro innings before turning 21 years-old, including 276.2 in 1985 at age 20. Of course, Doc had (and continues to have) his share of off-the-field issues, which likely contributed to his on-field decline. It's not often that a player's first two seasons are also his best. Which is more to blame for Doc's decline: too many innings at a young age or off-the-field problems?

Poll

Which is more to blame for Doc Gooden's on-field decline?

Too many innings at a young age

73 votes

Off-the-field problems

339 votes

412 votes | Poll has closed

Tweet Comment 27 comments | 0 recs |

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Comments

I remember Doc on the mound when he was "less dominant"

and sweating profusely and it was a cool evening game. My mom who I was watching the game with asked me “why is he sweating so much?” Yeah, I know, pitchers sweat when they pitch. I was a pitcher. I know. But this was different … obviously. There’s no doubt in my mind what was going on.

What shame. Watching him in ’85, I thought he could be the greatest of all time. He mechanics were flawless.

"Never throw a slider to The Glider."

- Ed Charles, No. 5

by The Glider on Apr 12, 2010 10:50 PM EDT reply actions

Actually, he was sweating even in '85.

I have very strong memories of games where they would hang the sweaty uniform in the dugout to dry and McCarver commenting on it. This was definitely ‘85 — back then we all wanted to know what Doc had for breakfast. Was it cocaine (for both the sweating and the breakfast?) Don’t know, but Doc was definitely sweating even in his prime.

"I've been trying transcendental meditation, and that helps me be passive and wait on the curve. I've got to find something else to hit the slider." - George (The Stork) Theodore

"Sometimes you're the Louisville Slugger, sometimes you're the ball." - Dire Straits, "The Bug"

by StorkFan on Apr 12, 2010 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions

I had been meaning to write a post about this

The answer, in my opinion, is neither. Right around 1986, the umpires stopped calling high strikes and batters slowly realized that they could take pitches around the letters (granted, not always easier said then done). Doc never fully adjusted to this reality by adding another pitch to go with the fastball and the curve. So, if Lord Charles was not available that day, Doc had to rely on the fastball. And if he couldn’t get the calls, it didn’t matter how hard he threw — good MLB hitters can catch up to it. Until you get to the level where Tuffy Rhodes can take you deep three times in one game.

"I've been trying transcendental meditation, and that helps me be passive and wait on the curve. I've got to find something else to hit the slider." - George (The Stork) Theodore

"Sometimes you're the Louisville Slugger, sometimes you're the ball." - Dire Straits, "The Bug"

by StorkFan on Apr 12, 2010 10:53 PM EDT reply actions

I've always heard that

Mel Stottlemyre tried to get Doc to become more of a GB pitcher. Any truth to this?

Sunny days ahead? Probably not.

by Brian. on Apr 12, 2010 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions

That was a story in '86

for a brief period of time to explain why Doc wasn’t striking out so many guys. IMO it was just a cover story for why the K rate had been going down. Fact was, after the ASB in ‘84, they took the training wheels off. Before, it wasn’t exactly Joba Rules, but his debut was 5 innings and a lot of starts weren’t much longer. Of course, he wasn’t that dominant the every time. It was impressive enough that he was in the bigs at 19 with all the K’s and a respectable W-L & ERA. Then he just took off. I saw Cone go no-no into the 8th, but it still wasn’t as great as the night I saw Doc get 16 K’s against the Pirates in Sept ‘84 — not only were there no walks, he never even went to 3 balls. And I was in my favorite place to watch a game at Shea that night —Loge section 1. Doesn’t get any better than that.

"I've been trying transcendental meditation, and that helps me be passive and wait on the curve. I've got to find something else to hit the slider." - George (The Stork) Theodore

"Sometimes you're the Louisville Slugger, sometimes you're the ball." - Dire Straits, "The Bug"

by StorkFan on Apr 12, 2010 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

Sounds sweet.

by Pack Bringley on Apr 12, 2010 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions

ahh, the loge

word to that

by HotChipWillBreakYourLegs on Apr 13, 2010 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions

If you've ready Heat or Darryl Strawberry's book...

it really is amazing that either of them accomplished anything at all. They both were such prodigious talents that they were able to skirt around some of these issues when they were young. Eventually, it caught up to them.

I’m 29 and I have a hard time getting up for work (let alone playing baseball) if I have more than 4 beers the night before. It certainly wasn’t like that 5 years ago. With the things that they were doing to their bodies, it was bound to catch up to them sooner or later, no matter have talented they were.

Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but Jerry abuses the privilege.

by AnthonyR on Apr 12, 2010 11:02 PM EDT reply actions

The strikeout rate went from 12 to 7 in 3 seasons

meanwhile Keith Hernandez was having some of his best seasons on coke.

by Sam Page on Apr 12, 2010 11:15 PM EDT reply actions

One other general point I wanted to make

Let me say this first: Davey Johnson is my favorite Mets manager ever. More than Booby V, more than Gil, even more than Mike Cubbage (kidding). Davey and Earl Weaver had what I call “the soul of a sabermetrician.” They weren’t doing advanced stats, but they understood how the numbers could help you win ball games. Davey is about as far as you could get from Jerry Manuel as you could get. That being said, in the spring of 1984 he was exactly the same with Doc as Jerry was this spring with Mejia. And Cashen kept saying, no, no it’s too soon. Finally he relented. Don’t forget that the year before, they lost something like 94 games, they lost Seaver, and the four starters ahead of Doc in the rotation were Mike Tottez (end of the line), Darling (rookie), Walt Terrell (half a year’s experience) and Ed Lynch (more experience but nothing special). So Doc didn’t exactly have a lot of competition to make the team either.

"I've been trying transcendental meditation, and that helps me be passive and wait on the curve. I've got to find something else to hit the slider." - George (The Stork) Theodore

"Sometimes you're the Louisville Slugger, sometimes you're the ball." - Dire Straits, "The Bug"

by StorkFan on Apr 12, 2010 11:23 PM EDT reply actions

*Bobby V

That was not a dig, I like Bobby, just not as much as I like Davey.

"I've been trying transcendental meditation, and that helps me be passive and wait on the curve. I've got to find something else to hit the slider." - George (The Stork) Theodore

"Sometimes you're the Louisville Slugger, sometimes you're the ball." - Dire Straits, "The Bug"

by StorkFan on Apr 13, 2010 12:15 AM EDT up reply actions

Personally, I think that Johnson was overrated a bit.

He certainly gets credit for keeping as much order around that team as possible, but, record-wise, when you have that much talent, you’d better win. I always contrast that to Bobby V, or Gil, who had less “talent per capita” than Johnson had, but got the same thing accomplished (more or less). As you mentioned, Davey Johnson lobbied Cashen for a lot of our younger players, including Gooden, and worked him like hell. If you want to ascribe to idea that his early workload caused his demise, there you go. From reading Amazin’ and Straw’s bio, there was also a lot of “bad blood” (some real, some imagined) between Hernandez, Strawberry, Johnson and Cashen that also acted as a contributor for Strawberry leaving for the Dodgers.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Apr 13, 2010 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions

They won 90 games his first year but were outscored

The ‘84 team wasn’t a lot different from the current team — a few stars and rising stars but not a lot of support players. Mike Fitzgerald was behind the plate, not the Kid. Mex was at a cross roads — his game was slipping, he was doing the coke, and Whitey dumped him. There was talented pitching coming up, but you can’t assume they’ll come through — remember Generation K? The staff had to churn through a lot of Torrezes, Tidrows and Berenyis before the Docs and Rons and El Sids. And while we all assume that a manager will pick the right player, the (sad) fact is that Jerry isn’t the only guy now (or would have been the only guy) then that would pick GMJ or Jacobs or Cora. Davey had similar options — he picked Backman/Chapman (later Teufel) over Bob Bailor. He made gutsy decisions like daring to play Kevin Mitchell at SS (it’s true) when El Sid was pitching. He made decisions based on who gave him the best chance to win that day and didn’t give a damn if someone “established” rode the pine. Bobby did this too and I give him credit for him as well. But Davey could have gone conventional on a lot of decisions and we would be talking about that era the way we talk about today’s team. As far as the bad blood, it sure existed — the infamous team picture day comes to mind. Straw punched Keith and they said it was the only time ll season he hit the cutoff man. Do I have to list all the WS champions that fought with each other? Don’t see the relevance, except that Straw couldn’t deal with it. They couldn’t find a player as good to replace him. In my mind, that era ended when Dykstra, who could hit and get on base was traded for a “tools guy” (Samuel). That’s when I realized the winds had shifted. And while Bud Harrelson holds a place in every Mets fan’s heart, it wasn’t for his skills as a manager.

"I've been trying transcendental meditation, and that helps me be passive and wait on the curve. I've got to find something else to hit the slider." - George (The Stork) Theodore

"Sometimes you're the Louisville Slugger, sometimes you're the ball." - Dire Straits, "The Bug"

by StorkFan on Apr 13, 2010 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions

Realistically, it's a combination of all of the different factors that undid him.

His initial handling and workload contributed to his later injuries. His drug habit didn’t help things, either, and could be said to have multiplied the problems that already did exist.

I had to look at his stats to look at specific years and such, and I’m still amazed at those numbers. Forget about his mid-‘80s numbers- I’m talking about his early ’90s numbers. He went from “From Phenom to Phantom”, as Sports Illustrated said, but on what world would these stats not still be pretty damn good:

1990: 19-7 / 3.83 ERA / 232.2 IP / 233 K
1991: 13-7 / 3.60 / 190 IP / 150
1992: 10-13 / 3.67 / 206 IP / 145
1993: 12-15 / 3.45 / 208.2 IP / 149
1994: 3-4 / 6.31 / 41.1 IP / 40

I was just talking to my mom about him around dinnertime, about his latest troubles. No matter how many times he fucks up his life, and those close to him, knowing that he brought it all on himself, something inside makes me still want to forgive him.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Apr 12, 2010 11:58 PM EDT reply actions

A victim of his own early success

As late as 1992 Gooden was still one of the top pitchers in the game. His main problem was that he could never replicate his 1985 season, which was just about as good a season pitched since the late 60’s for any man not named Pedro Martinez. But there were few pitchers that wouldn’t have killed to put up Gooden’s numbers during his “down” years.

by dcmetsfan on Apr 13, 2010 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions

Pretty much

If, say, John Maine could become as “horrible” as the early ‘90s Doc Gooden was, I’d be pleased.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Apr 13, 2010 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions

Doc and Straw both wrecked themselves

they are the perfect example of what drugs can take away from you. They had it all, the best at what they did, Hall Of Fame potential. There careers were shortened and there lives totally destroyed after baseball.

by Rickfansince76 on Apr 13, 2010 8:44 AM EDT reply actions

Twin tragedies, Doc and Straw

But Doc gave me the best sports memory I will ever have. I scored front row behind the visitor’s dugout seats one evening. Doc was on the mound and that was the game in which Doc threw 14 K’s for the second start in a row. Watching him pitch was wonderful, but what made the night memorable for me was my consumption of many, many beers and my resulting interaction with the Cubs in their dugout.

Their left fielder, in particular got tired of my verbal abuse and he and I got into a shouting match.

That left fielder is the father of a current NY Met. Can you name him?

by Shivling on Apr 13, 2010 8:59 AM EDT reply actions

I'm guessing Sarge

Good job heckling. That’s what the fans are there for. Unfortunately, the players can never hear me from the upper deck.

by hotspur on Apr 13, 2010 9:08 AM EDT up reply actions

post below was meant to reply to you. :)

by Shivling on Apr 13, 2010 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions

Correct, of course.

Thanks. My heckling was just enough to get the Cubs upset but just short of getting the boot out of Shea. Fond memories of the best 3 year stretch I can remember as a Mets fan, 84, 85 and 86.

by Shivling on Apr 13, 2010 9:18 AM EDT reply actions