A General Post on Mets Management Strategy
(bumped from fanposts. --eric)
The Devil Rays, the Pirates, the Mariners: one by one the old-school, traditionally-minded general managers and management strategies are being replaced by an intelligent, purposeful, and businesslike approach, making use of the resources and knowledge available today. Left behind are teams like the Mets, Astros, and Giants, to name a few of the most pathetic.
Nevertheless, poorly conceived and poorly constructed squadrons can and do compete-- the Mets had a nice run there from 2006 to 2008-- even if, with some better decisions made on the margins, they could have made the playoffs those latter two years and perhaps brought home a pennant or two. Now, it seems, the opportunity has passed; the Mets can either set themselves up for a burst of success in the future, or continue to throw money around, perpetually fielding 75-85 win teams.
That can work when one has as much money as the Mets, but one must spend that money correctly, not based on potentially heartwarming stories and silly notions of set roles (instead of relative and total value).
This first theory of Mets' management is, I think, highly neglected. Omar Minaya does not have any special talent for constructing a baseball roster. He has skill as a scout, but basically no understanding of the relative value of baseball players, how to measure it, and how to obtain that value at a good price. His thinking is rigid where he needs to be flexible, and imaginative where it just doesn't matter.
What do I mean? This-- that Minaya thinks in terms of stories. When he needs to fill a spot (more on that later), he does not do a thorough analysis of the possible performances but rather decides based on the possible stories. Thus he brought Fernando Tatis and Jose Valentin out of obscurity (good moves), and gave a two-year contract to a Julio Franco who was closer to 50 than 40 (a bad move among many). He wants to be seen as the genius who gave Cuban defector Raul Valdez, toiling in the Latin leagues, his great chance. Frank Catalanatto, Smithtown's own. Etc., etc., ad nauseum.
Which is not to say that such considerations do not have their place-- they do, but they come after actual performance. Minaya's Met front office seems incapable of understanding basic economic principles, let alone the advanced understanding of the game that has revolutionized most other front offices in the last ten years. There are undoubtedly people in the organization who understand these things, but I believe that the perverse notions of Minaya and those around him ultimately trump everything else.
Those notions are, in addition to the desire to pack a roster with stories that beat writers will love: the idea of a baseball team as a 'mix,' as in chemistry, or a puzzle, with the pieces 'fitting together'; defined 'roles,' whether it is 'a power-hitting first baseman,' or 'an eighth-inning guy'; and that minor league statistics are meaningless and completely non-predictive.
Thus we hear stories such as, "The Mets are looking for a power-hitting first basemen." They have decided, arbitrarily, that the other positions are filled and this is the one that needs to be 'filled.' Consequently the team makes a stupid trade, overpays a free agent, or acquires a complete non-entity/liability like Mike Jacobs and considers its job done. Instead of assessing the free agent/trade market for value over and above what the current roster provides, the front office assesses its own roster in terms of 'slots' that are either 'filled' or not. Consequently Alex Cora, backup infielder, is re-signed to a pointlessly large contract while Felipe Lopez, starting second baseman and a far superior option to the Mets' own starting "second baseman," is passed over.
For years Billy Beane and others have been running a scam where they put an adequate reliever into 9th inning situations so that he can acquire "saves," and then flip him, his value inflated by a meaningless statistic, to a gullible team who finds, too late, that he is just an ordinary reliever. The Mets have been and continue to be the team who will overpay for players like these.
How long, oh Lord, will we suffer the Gary Matthews, Jrs. and Mike Jacobses? How long must we wander the desert of general incompetence? How long will we see value wasted and opportunities lost? Oh ye Mets, come down from your high places, put on sackcloth and sit in ashes, for the time of reckoning is soon at hand.
Cross-posted at Blastings! Thrilledge.
This FanPost was contributed by a member of the community and was not subject to any vetting or approval process. It does not necessarily reflect the opinions, reasoning skills, or attention to grammar and usage rules held by the editors of this site.
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Nice post
Is Blastings back, or is this just a cameo?
by James Kannengieser on Apr 17, 2010 3:37 PM EDT reply actions
i voted for the 2nd option
but I’d say the third is probably even with it.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
Great post, but I sorta disagree with the "story" idea
I think Omar thinks he’s doing what a good GM does — finding undervalued talent and players who he predicts will perform better than their past record indicates. I just think he’s often very, very wrong about this — and even when he’s right it often doesn’t make the difference he imagines, because he doesn’t fully understand what the team’s needs actually are.
Clearly one of the biggest blinders is, I agree, thinking in terms of “roles” to be filled: rather than adding marginal wins with upgrades wherever they can be found, Omar thinks of the holes to fill at defined slots. And then, most damningly and damagingly of all, when he thinks he’s filled a slot, he stops looking.
So Omar is sometimes actually pretty good at finding undervalued old guys, and even when he’s wrong, there’s often very little harm necessarily done by his scrap-heap moves. If he were just the scouting director, a smart GM could use his recommendations to take a lot of low-risk, high-reward gambles. The harm comes when he falls in love with the pickup of someone like Matthews or Jacobs; instead of simply giving them a shot in spring training, he gives them starting slots on the big-league roster. Or, another example — letting Figueroa go while filling the bullpen with the likes of Mejia, Valdes, Nieve is another case where the “story” doesn’t seem to be the driving force so much as the combination of dumb role-filling with a gambler’s-fallacy, good-money-after-bad mindset. A player Omar’s gambled on once is a player he’ll gamble on forever, and I see that as his biggest ongoing problem.
by anonymous on Apr 17, 2010 4:15 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
This, exactly.
It’s hard to say why Omar makes the decisions he makes. To say it’s one thing or another is to claim to know what he’s thinking, which just isn’t possible.
by EricAColucci on Apr 17, 2010 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions
yup
look at what he did with guys like El Duque and Valentin. he got them for little to nothing, they played big roles in the pennant race in 06 but then when they became free agents at the end of the season, instead of letting them go like every rational met fan suggested, he resigned them and overpayed (Valentin i think got 1 yr at 5 mil and El Duque got 2 yrs at 12 mil). When you get these guys that come out of nowhere, you have to evaluate whether that is real or not. With guys as old as El Duque and Valentin, the odds are that their solid performance isn’t real (or at least it cannot be reproduced) and as we all know, in 2007, Valentin got hurt and missed most of the year (and struggled when he played) and El Duque was solid but injury prone in 07 and a non-factor in 08. One of Omar’s big flaws has been knowing when to let go—look at Ollie Perez as another example. you got two solid years out of him but you know he is far from the perfect pitcher. A smart GM would say “we got two solid years out of him for cheap…let’s try to upgrade”. instead, Omar overpayed for Perez, making a seemingly decent move in trading for Perez an albatross.
Overall, I really would like to see this front office move into the future with some Saber-tactics. it is really frustrating to watch this team waste so much time and money (not to mention most of Wright and Reyes’ early seasons and Santana’s prime).
by Steve Schreiber on Apr 18, 2010 12:42 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I will disagree with you slightly about Oliver Perez
I don’t think signing Perez (at the time, a 27 year old left hander who threw in the 90s and five years of major league experience) was a bad idea. Signing Perez to that contract was a bad idea. He could have easily let Perez see what he was worth on the open market with a promise to be competitive. If someone wanted to blow out the bank, congrats Ollie. Instead, Minaya fell for the Boras’ Jedi Mind Trick and gave a contract no one else was willing to give.
Good post...
I agree with most of what you say.
One thing you left out is Minaya usually is woefully slow (like 2 years slow) to address obvious problems. A problem will surface, it will be ignored for a year, it will be ignored for another year until it destroys an entire season, then Omar will panic and “fix” the problem with a giant contract.
So, for instance, say we look at our rotation at the beginning of a season and say, “Wow, our starting pitching sucks.” And every analyst and baseball person across the land looks at our team and says, “Wow, the Mets’ starting pitching sucks.”
Omar responds, “Hm, our pitching sucked last year, and it’s all the same guys this year, but it’s probably just a coincidence, and I’ll just hope the problem goes away by itself.”
Then guess what, the rotation kills us for a second year in a row.
Next year, fearing for his job, Omar will go out and way overpay for the biggest name FA pitcher on the market, no matter who he is. Then he will act like he is a genius for identifying a need and filling it. (Meanwhile ignoring some other blatantly obvious flaw in the team for another year, like say, 1B, or 2B, or the OF, or the bench, or C, or the bullpen.)
This is how we ended up with KRod and Putz after two years where the bullpen destroyed us. (2009 storyline: “We have two closers now! Omar fixed the bullpen!”)
kind of like how he searched scrap heaps and used band-aids
to fill corner outfield spots for like 4 years, and just when we finally have an abundance of cheap possible average to above average corner outfielder options, Frenchy, F-mart, Carter/Evans, Pagan (and I’m still holding out hope for Davis seeing time in rf) he’s goes out and signs Bay to a massive contract.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
He has an very strong arm.
Probably strong enough to play RF; in college he pitched, and there was some talk of moving him back to pitching if his power never developed last year.
May you be locked in a battle of wits against Omar Minaya.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Apr 17, 2010 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions
And because if he can play an average outfield
he’ll be much more valuable, plus, at least in general 1b is easier to fill than an outfield spot.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
easier and cheaper
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
This team though
Has better outfield options at this point than at first.
by Blame-everyone-else on Apr 18, 2010 12:42 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Meh
Bay won’t be a better outfield option for very long, and that’s kind of what I meant that they shouldn’t have given him that contract when we finally had so many of options. But yeah if they keep Frenchy and F-mart, and have no plans on moving Bay in 2-3 years then obviously he should stay at first. But at least getting him work in the outfield wouldn’t kill anyone, positional flexibility is never a bad thing.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
Agreed, but we're talking long term here.
Nothing precludes Davis from playing a few seasons at first and then moving to RF after Bay/Beltran decline.
John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.
And yet we're running Mike Jacobs out there almost everyday.
May you be locked in a battle of wits against Omar Minaya.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Apr 18, 2010 1:28 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah that's why I said generally
and still it’s not even like we haven’t found better options. We’re just too dumb to realize it. Replace F-Cat and Jacobs with Nick Evans and Carter and not only is first base about 1000 times better so is the bench.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
Not to mention more versatile
For all the bullets LaRussa put in his foot tonight, he at least put some effort into his strategy. Looking at the box score, you wonder which of these guys was actually trying to win the marathon tonight. The Cards moved guys all over the diamond, while we just ran our bench out there to pinch-hit. Carter and Evans give this team more flexibility than what we’ve got now.
May you be locked in a battle of wits against Omar Minaya.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Apr 18, 2010 2:19 AM EDT up reply actions
one week
in the majors and you want to change his position.Don’t screw around with this kid’s head and leave him at first.
by Putnan Prince on Apr 25, 2010 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions
No, I'm not advocating changing his position.
I’m just restating something that’s been thrown around a lot – that, should we have a greater need at 1B than RF, Davis could be moved to right. But right now, there’s no reason to consider doing so.
May you be locked in a battle of wits against Omar Minaya.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Apr 25, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
It's probably unlikely at this point since he's already in the majors
but even if we didn’t have a need to move him learning to play rf would have at least been useful. Being able to play multiple positions is certainly never a bad thing.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
lets teach
Davis how to play right field at the major league level.Todd Hundley and Daniel Murphy can show him how to do it on the fly.Leave Ike Davis alone at first!!!! The Mets don’t even let Omar hold press conferences any more because he humiliates himself and the organization.Doesn’t that say it all!
by Putnan Prince on Apr 20, 2010 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions
?
who said anything about doing it at the major league level.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
as an aside,
One of the pieces of your diagnosis of Omar’s mindset caught my eye as something that has been neglected by other writers recently and deserves to be developed:
minor league statistics are meaningless and completely non-predictive
Though “completely” is probably a slight overstatement, I really think you’re probably right about this and I’d love to see someone do a roundup of quotes in support of the idea. It strikes me now (for the first time!) that this is part of what the nonsensical fixation on “proven” players really means in Omar-speak: if he greatly discounts the predictive value of minor-league peformance, then it actually logically follows that even a relatively shitty major-league track record might be a quality worth pursuing, since it’s evidence that a guy “can play at this level.”
Good point, but...
I think it’s just an extension of Omar relying solely on scouting based methods of evaluation. This is the reason why every single “second lefty in the bullpen” experiment fails. They see a “funky left hander” and think that left-handed hitters will have a tough time seeing his pitches. It doesn’t matter if this pitcher allows too much contact to be used as a relief specialist or that they might not have a significant platoon split. Omar and his people “see” and “feel” and that’s enough for them. Or so it seems.
www.twitter.com/willDavidian
by All Shook Down on Apr 18, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Strategy? What strategy? His plan? His plan that he likes?
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Apr 18, 2010 12:44 PM EDT reply actions
i chose 'none of these'
those are all serious flaws but IMO the most serious flaw this regime has is in talent acquisition, namely the draft. their seeming ignorance (and resulting gross misuse) of the draft as THE primary mechanism that an organization has to keep sustainable talent flowing through the pipelines and ultimately into the majors is unforgivable.
I usually agree
but in a thread a few weeks ago Schmidtx brought up a good point about how they’ve spent a lot of money setting up academies in Carribean countries and how we’re the only team in the league that’s invested that much, I imagine some of the reasons we haven’t been able to spend as much on the draft is because of a lot of resources have been redirected there the last few years. And the long-term value probably off-sets the short term loss we’ve had not spending on the draft.
To bad Omar won’t be around to see it pay off.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
That might be the case,
but shouldn’t a team with such a huge amount of resources as the Mets be able to spend a few million a year on baseball academies, and still spend on the draft as usual? Of course, that may not be Omar’s fault; he’s not the one setting the budget.
May you be locked in a battle of wits against Omar Minaya.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Apr 18, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah probably
which is why, to me at least, one of the most annoying things about professional sports if their books don’t have to be made public.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
the importance of the draft
is a relatively new concept, as its being utilized by the top teams currently. up until very recently, prospects were commodities teams used to supplement their big league team via trades. the draft was never viewed as important enough as free agency because prospects are, and will continue to be a total crapshoot.
it hasn’t been until very recently that teams have bolted down and retained their top flight prospects, forgoing major trades and dealing with the learning curve of young teams. we’ve seen that with the d’backs, dodgers, rays, indians, brewers and now the cubs, the braves, even the yankees.
but the reliance on the draft is a progressive thinking turn, brought on by the new breed of GMs who value cost analysis. its a little too broad to damn Omar for not fully utilizing the draft when so many other teams do the same thing, the nats, the pirates and padres are pretty notorious draft butchers as well.
it should also be noted
that the draft itself is a terribly broken system. MLB wants teams to use a slotting system that there are no tangible rules for, even if it hurts the team to do so.
i can’t say i blame too many teams who balk at the idea of giving massive contracts to 18 year old kids who won’t see a pro diamond for 4 years. too many variables involved, too many potential shoulder blowouts.
actually
the pirates have been one of the top spending teams on the draft the last 2-3 years. But even if they weren’t, is it really acceptable to excuse our gm for not doing something some of the worst teams, record wise, in the league aren’t doing? The Padres won’t even spend on their ml roster it’s not that shocking they won’t do it on the draft either. And the Nats didn’t exist until what 4 years ago?
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
And the guy who wasn't utilizing the draft for the Nats before they existed
is the same guy in charge of us now, so it’s kind of like you’re excusing Omar because Omar did it with another team.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
not an excuse at all
its recognizing that the draft in and of itself is a mess, and many teams use the draft poorly.
i’m merely suggesting that out all of the terrible decisions omar’s made, the original poster picked the one that really isn’t indicative of the issues we’re facing.
certainly we’d be better off with a front office team that targets talent in the draft better and spends more on it, but the real issue is the mishandling of the prospects we have right now.
Oh I agree with that
but one of the reasons they mishandle, and one of the reasons ever mishandling is so major, is because our minor league system is so thin, some Rangers fans are annoyed at Feliz in the bullpen, although he’s been handled 100x better than Meija has, but at the end of the day it’s not nearly as big of a deal because along with Feliz they have Hunter, Perez, Holland and probably a few other top tier pitching starting pitching prospects who are basically ML ready. After Meija, we have pretty much nothing, I mean we have guys but none of them are anywhere near ready or with the upside of Meija. The Red Sox could put Masterson and Bowden in the bullpen, and then move them at the deadline, because they’d recently graduated Lester and still had Bucholz and Bard. If we mishandle or move even 2-3 prospects it will create massive holes and major long-term prospects. And at the same time they can afford to give a guy like Buckholz time before shipping him off because they have/had so many other starting options.
I mean if Thole doesn’t work out where would that leave us at catcher? No names hitting the FA market, no one else in the system I can think of but the Thunder God and Pena, and we really can’t afford to move any pieces of real value. If Beltran walks our only real options in CF are either dropping big money in FA for one or sticking with Pagan long-term.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
trade Beltran
as soon as he shows he can play.He’s our one bargaining chip to get good return on.How would he fit in across town.Save $10 million the rest of this season and $19 million next year.The trade should loosen some cash and return a quality player or 2.
by Putnan Prince on Apr 20, 2010 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions
We're not going to get full value for Beltran
He’s hitting his decline phase, and his contract states he cannot be offered arbitration. We’d have to eat a fair amount of money in a trade.
May you be locked in a battle of wits against Omar Minaya.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Apr 20, 2010 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions
I mean so much of our optimism about 2011 and on
is based on the hopes of nearly every prospect we have working out. How often do even half the top prospects a team has work out. If Davis/Havens/Thole were to flame out we’d be in a massive mess.
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
right
and the red sox example is perfect, i think because it showcases what a saber oriented GM with huge financial resources can do.
but the teams who have tremendous depth available in the minors are those that shifted from the old mentality of draft for the big trade, to draft and hold onto them for dear life. and that shift has been a relatively new way of thinking, only the past 4 or 5 years.
clearly the only way out of this mess is to bounce minaya.
I can agree it started in the past 4-5 years
but isn’t 4-5 years more than enough time for a front office to adjust? Especially when the shift has been so highly publicized, including the fact that teams are not only spending more on the draft they’re locking up stars long-term incredibly young so guys like Tex and Sabathia hitting the market in their primes becomes rarer and rarer? I mean these are stories and shifts that have been widely publicized, what excuse is there for a team with the means, and who actually intends on competing, (unlike a team like the Padres), for not having adjusted by now?
And to top off their greatest season yet the new jersey nets scored 86 points...in double overtime. yes a professional basketball team only mustered 86 points in 58 minutes of basketball.
The Astros are probably the biggest draft butchers in the league.
I think it was 2008 where they failed to sign any picks from the top 3 rounds.
May you be locked in a battle of wits against Omar Minaya.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Apr 18, 2010 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I voted story,
but on second thought it’s poor player evaluation. It’s sad that they can bring in guys like Jacobs and Smithtown in when they have guys like Carter/Evans in the minors who would more than likely outperform Jacobs/Cat. Little things like that would make a substantial difference in how the team performs.
Sunny days ahead? Probably not.

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