Has the Sun Set on Murph?
In other words, is it time to turn the page on the 'Daniel Murphy, New York Mets starting first baseman' era?
Coming into the spring, Murphy seemed to be riding an inside track that would make the first base job his to win or lose; His charge for Opening Day looked pretty clear: Put up or shut up. He'd get the first shot but with other options waiting, Murphy would most likely lose the job at the first sign of an extended slump. But now, with the unfortunate timing of his injury, Murphy obviously will not be starting the season at first base and it is very conceivable that he might have lost his already tenuous grip on the starting role entirely.
Strike one against Murphy getting his job back, his early season audition now belong to Mike Jacobs. And in Jacobs' favor, he's going to be platooning with Tatis, sparing himself the the embarrassment of facing lefties (.178 AVG in '09), allowing him to pad his stats for the early weeks and possibly parlay that into a full-time role.
Strike two, Chris Carter has clearly been the Mets best hitter this spring and what's more, the guy has a penchant for tearing up Triple-A (.380 avg. WOBA his last 3 seasons) so expect him to be in the mix if Jacobs falters early.
Strike three of course is Ike, who gave Carter a run for his money this spring as the 2nd best hitter in camp. If Davis continues raking the way he has from last April pretty much non-stop until the present, the team looks primed to get him up to Queens soon.
Compounding Murphy's problems, each of these 3 options sports a similar, left-handed profile as his own, each with varying degrees of superiority. Jacobs clearly possesses much more power potential; Carter has far better plate discipline and platoon splits and Ike does more of both while playing better defense. So basically, Murphy went from first on the depth chart down to 3-4 in one fell swoop and would need a lot to go wrong to get his job back. I just don't see it happening. So now what?
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Now I don't think this means that Dan Murphy will be getting started on his career in insurance, I just think that this hastens the development of the next stage in Murphy's career, as a super-utility guy. In short, make Murphy the Swiss Army Knife of this team. It was going to have to happen by 2011 anyway (because of Ike) so why not get started now?
Think of the nickname possibilities...
To me, this process begins with Murph back in Triple-A. As tough as that might be for him to swallow, I'd immediately put him to work getting time in all around the field, starting at 2B. This was a notion that many were very fond of two winters ago and some within the Mets organization agreed, as he spent his second half of '08 and his time in the AFL at second. Murphy himself asked to make the switch, claiming familiarity with the position having been strictly a second baseman through high school. After the move, manager of the B-Mets Mako Oliveras stated that Murphy looked like "he'd been there forever." Now overall reports were somewhat mixed but definitely not horrible and according to FanGraphs positional adjustments, he'd have to be something like 15 defensive runs worse at second to become less valuable than he was at first. Take Skip Schumaker; his defense at 2B has not been good according to UZR (-7.7 in '09) yet he has been approximately a 2 WAR player for the Cards since switching to second without putting up anything close to a stellar offensive line.
Next get Murphy time in the OF, where he showed promise based on excellent range but also serious holes as well. By the end of 2010 I'd expect him to be at or near major league passable at some or all of 1B, 3B, 2B and corner OF. Coming into 2011 I pencil Murph in for the first spot on the bench.
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People have mentioned early-Mark DeRosa as a model and to me that seems pretty realistic. In Murphy I see a guy that spot starts, fills in for injuries and serves as an occasional pinch-hitter, puts up a good not great offensive line and makes up for somewhat sub-par defense with his positional flexibility; all this while getting enough ab's to possibly develop into something more down the line because as John Sickels recently pointed out, Murphy's profile definitely points to a chance for improvement. Does all this make or break the team? No, but being able to count on such a player at a very reasonable price for the foreseeable future definitely wouldn't hurt.
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I thought this as well.
This injury is terrible timing for him. I can see Jacobs taking this job and running with it. He’s got an attitude that I’m sure management loves.
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
If Jacobs/Tatis do a passable job while Hammer is out:
I say send him down to AAA and have him play a different position every day. He’s beyond worthless just sitting on the bench up here.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Apr 4, 2010 1:02 PM EDT reply actions
Jacobs doing a passable job?
Maybe if Oliver Perez turns into Sandy Koufax then we can actually trade Johan for prospects. I like the optimism, but the idea of Jacobs being even serviceable, forget productive, seems like a long shot at best.
"Relax, all right? Don't try to strike everybody out. Strikeouts are boring; besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls. It's more democratic."
- CRASH DAVIS
I'm not banking on it.
It’s a pretty big “if.” However, if it is really a straight platoon and he and Tatis perform well on their respective sides of the plate, it’s not out of the realm of possibility that they could put up decent numbers as a tandem and push Hammer to the bench. Perfect excuse to send his ass to the minors to try and learn how to be a super-sub.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Apr 4, 2010 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Hyperbole much?
Look, I’m on the Free Chris Carter/Jacobs stinks bandwagon, but here are Jacobs’ slash stats against RHP for his career: .263/.325/.505/.830. His OPS+ is 110. This definitely isn’t cleanup hitter material, but if they actually executed a strict platoon with him and Tatis, they could offer passable 1B production if Reyes and Beltran can come back healthy.
"Seriously, Lana, call Kenny Loggins ‘cause you’re in the danger zone."
those're decent numbers tho Jacobs d cuts into them pretty hard
Carter was so clearly the better option (more flexible defensively, BETTER defensively, with as much promise as hitter) I’m just not seeing why Jacobs got the job. Murph’s defnitely in trouble, though. He’d have to come back and hit the cover off the ball and his window of opp is going to be very very small
As much as I love The Surf the Mets really screwed the pooch by not trading him after the 2008 season. He had adequate numbers on D at third, he clearly had some upside as a hitter, and NL 3bmen were OPSing all of 750 of so in 2008. Surely some GM would have been glad to swap his surplus, promising young position player for the Mets surplus promising position player?
I'm in favor of keeping Murphy in AAA after he recovers from his injury.
I mean, let’s be honest, we all know that Omar is keeping Jacobs at first all year. It’s inevitable.
Extra time in the Minors will allow Murphy to get used to his new batting stance, which Gary, Keith, and Ron have all remarked that he looks/seems uncomfortable with. It will also give him time to work at other positions defensibly, to turn him into a young, better Mark DeRosa. That’s a plan I like. That would help the club immensely, and would make Murphy a more valuable player.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Apr 5, 2010 12:24 PM EDT reply actions
Sure that would work if
Jacobs was’nt your starting 1b
murph will be back at 1st soon
after what we saw from jacobs 2day
Self-proclaimed president of the Pat White and Brian Hartline fan club.
No hating on Jay Fiedler, please.
Official Back-Up Phinsider LOL'er.
The one and only "ho-nerd"
jacobs lol lol lol o.k.
he stunk today murphy can be a 300 hitter it just seems everybody is just ike davis crazy remember a kid named gregg jeffries ? im not saying davis is going to be like him but there is a reason he got sent down. ike is the real deal he is a talent they have to try and find another position for murph because he is a good player that is only going to get better maybe 2nd base is his calling why not castillo is not a great 2nd baseman anymore ..
Reasons Ike Davis got sent down:
Prevent his arb clock from starting
He hasn’t even gotten a chance to hit AAA pitching, let alone extended time in AA
Murph will only be out a short time
Mets have an irrational love of Jacobs and other vets; if anything, Ike being sent down is a demonstration of his capabilities
Face it, you really don’t know what you’re talking about at all. Gregg Jeffries? Where did you come up with THAT comparison? In what way are they similar at all? Just because a big time prospect with a few similarities failed once in the long history of a major organization does not mean that Davis will fail, or whatever. But…then you go on to say that he’s the real deal? Why would they try to find another position for Murph? Sure, they could try 2nd base, but they’re already apparently done that in the AFL, so I don’t see that happening. Fact is, Murph is a classic tweener. He’ll be a very good bench player, but I see no reason to open up a position just so he can start.
John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.
thats my opinion who made you bob costas anyway you know what everybody hates murphy so much then just trade him for a bag of popcorn thats why this team will never win or beat the phillies is because thet have know clue how to use there talents and thats my the phillies are winners take it easy mr, baseball tim kurjen wanna be ..
You're really not helping your case here.
You know what would help make a stronger point? An evidence-based argument rather than a mere assertion that all opinions are equal.
Also, punctuation.
Also, fewer stupid attempted personal attacks.
whatever einstein maybe your mother can help with my puncuation what i forgot about baseball you could never learn…
What I learned about baseball
is something you never will
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
wow, you're not banned yet?
Congratulations and enjoy the rest of your visit to AA.
banned for what defending myself from insults ..oh i put a period at the end this time for all of you bill gates out there .. wow look another one
is that supposed to be an insult?
being a billionaire just sounds like an awful existence.
in billionaire russian playboys we trust.
NO ONE LIKEZ NERDSZ!!
Regardless of how incredibly rich, successful, and influential they are.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Apr 10, 2010 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
That's two periods, actually. Borderline Cerronean speak, you're talking right there.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Apr 10, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
a period is not two dots
two dots is just a nothing
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Apr 11, 2010 6:57 AM EDT up reply actions
You know there isn't supposed to be a space between the last word and the period.
And why two periods?
What are you, 6 years old?
Everyone makes some mistakes typing, but it’s like you have no knowledge at all of spelling, grammar or punctuation.
your new name on here is no longer evan _s its now le douche..
by lohaus#54 on Apr 9, 2010 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
rec'd
just so I can unrec it
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Apr 11, 2010 6:57 AM EDT up reply actions
...Bob Costas? Tim Kurkjien?
I don’t hate Murphy, but I don’t see any reason why he should be expected to start over someone like Davis, Wright, Bay, or Martinez, who are the 4 players that should eventually be the long term answers at the positions Murph could realistically play. Again, I was a big proponent of the second base experiment when it happened, but if it didn’t work, it didn’t work.
John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.
No one asked you, mr, baseball tim kurjen wanna be...
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Apr 7, 2010 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
+1
We need to get that one on the Meme Express.
NO YOU DONT UNDERSTAND
WAT I FORGOT ABOUT BASEBALLL U CUD NEVER LERN!!!
John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.
hey, there's this great thing called a period
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
There are periods.
At the end, there. Two of them. Randomly.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Apr 9, 2010 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions
if Davis got sent down to not start his Arb clock
What’s the reasoning with Tejada’s clock starting and Mejia?? Its not the clock its the incompetent management. You don’t need to be cheap if your a NY Franchise its not Tampa or Pittsburgh people are forgetting that.
they do when they have so much money already committed
I think someone mentioned we have 120 million tied up in like 11 players next year. And Reyes is going to have to be extended, to a bigger contract, Bay’s salary will increase in 2012 and so will K-rods if his option vest.
As far as Tejada, eh the mets management is dumb.
in billionaire russian playboys we trust.
yeah
tejada will be in buffalo by tomorrow night, arb. clock started, having gained 5-7 pa’s and 1 start-worth of experience. we probably won’t see him again until august or september.
i’ve said it before and (sadly) i’ll say it again, sweet roster management omar.
by Rob Castellano on Apr 9, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Doesn't Tejada's arb clock stop
while he’s in the minors? Thought that was how it worked…
Yes
But its basically a wasted 40-man roster spot, that’s the more problematic element at work. And his clock is technically started, he has however many days of service time on record already, though that shouldn’t change much of anything unless he comes up to stay at the beginning of next year.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Apr 12, 2010 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions
exactly
and in an organization where roster (mis)management has repeatedly been such an issue over the last few years, a locked-in roster spot that isn’t contributing to the major league club in an already pretty inflexible 40-man is the last thing they need.
by Rob Castellano on Apr 13, 2010 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Not quite yet, but soon
I wish there was a better option to, as you said, send him down and get him better prepared for his likely future of being a utility player, but Jacobs is not the answer and they are playing it smart (shockingly enough) with Davis.
I really feel that eventually, he’ll carve out a decent niche as a big leaguer (in the vein of Joe McEwing).
It’s not his fault that the General Manager cannot appropriately fill the holes in his roster and they keep shuffling him around to positions that don’t fit his skill set. Unfortunately, he is slotted in to the postion that probably fits him the worst from an offensive standpoint.
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but Jerry abuses the privilege.
better option
you don’t like carter? his AAA totals suggest that he’ll out hit murphy and it isn’t like any of the 3 (excluding ike) is known for their defense. this way we lose jacobs, allow ike to get more seasoning and murphy to learn more positions in buffalo.
by Rob Castellano on Apr 6, 2010 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Absolutely like Carter
But wouldn’t give him the job to send Murph down. I do feel that he should be up right now and playing over Jacobs though. At least Jerry wouldn’t hit him in the 4-hole (at least I think).
With Beltran out, I think you need Murphy in the lineup. While Carter might end up being the better player, Murph had least has experience under his belt.
I couldn’t argue with either one of them. Jacobs on the other hand……
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but Jerry abuses the privilege.
murphy has experience because we were desperate and were out of options
Carter can’t get experience if you don’t play him.
in billionaire russian playboys we trust.
I would play him
But you can’t send Murph down with the current constitution of the roster. There is no way that he is not among our 25 best guys at this point, as sad as that may be.
I would cut Jacobs and Smithtown’s Own when Murphy is healthy and replace them with Carter and Murph. Give them a shot and play whomever is producing.
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but Jerry abuses the privilege.
idk
i don’t love the “one of the best 25 guys” argument, it’s oversimplifying a pretty complex situation IMO and it’s woefully short-sighted.
you need to look at the murphy scenario in more of a cost/benefit type of mindset: is murphy one of the best 25 guys and will we be better off in the short run with murphy on the major league club? yeah definitely. but will we be so much better that it completely outweighs the benefit that we’ll gain in the long run by sending him down and transitioning him into a more flexible utility role? i don’t think so considering the similar (if not superior) level of alternatives that we’ve got for murphy currently. this is basically the same as the mejia argument.
by Rob Castellano on Apr 9, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
You are comparing a 20 year old top prospect pitcher who is being rushed and misused
to a utility man. I agree with your cost analysis metaphor but believe the benefits gained by sending him down are outweighed for our need to have him on the roster.
It’s a luxury to send him down at this point and really, where else is he going to play? The outfield has pretty much been ruled out, he already plays 1st and he’s a natural 3rd baseman.
Is it really that pertinent to the club’s future that he learn to play 2B?
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but Jerry abuses the privilege.
well i meant in the larger sense
mejia’s case is very different from murphy’s, that’s obvious.
but honestly, do we think this team’s playoffs chances are hinged on dan murphy getting back into the lineup at some point in may or june? maybe if the only alternative is jacobs the answer is yes but if you consider that ike (or to a less extent carter) will likely do the same if not a better job than murphy i don’t see why it’s so important to get him back in there.
and as far as where else he’d play, i think 2B is very pertinent seeing as how he was a natural 2B early in his career and we’ve got 2 clear long-term pieces planted firmly at 1B and 3B. beyond that, he showed enough in the OF that it’s wayyy too early to just rule that option out as well, even just on a limited basis. basically the more flexibility he develops, the more valuable he is.
by Rob Castellano on Apr 11, 2010 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Murphy Positives
He’s still the only one who’s proven he can hit major league pitching. Ike, Carter, and Jacobs still have their deficiencies. Murphy’s biggest problem is still that defensive charm of his.
I've seen the Broncos miss the playoffs three times in the final game the last four seasons. I've seen Brodeur give up 2 goals in the last 1:40 of a Game 7. I've seen the Mets break my heart twice in September. 2010 Mets...please bring me some happiness again!!
defensive charm?
I’d say defense is the least of his worries at first. And he’s only proven he can hit major leaguers because we were so desperate we gave him a chance. Carter can’t prove anything if they won’t give him a chance.
in billionaire russian playboys we trust.
exactly
carter’s got this scarlet letter stuck on him that he’s a “Quad-A Masher” yet he’s never actually been given even a slight chance to see if he can translate his offensive prowess to the bigs. he’s got a career .890 OPS in the minors but just 23 major league ab’s for god’s sake. i know he can’t field but look at mike jacobs, he can’t field OR hit and he’s been around for years.
and there’s absolutely no reason to assume he can’t make the jump based on his VERY strong plate discipline, ability to hit lefties as well as righties and pretty much unblemished record of crushing Triple-A. yet everywhere you turn people are saying “well he’s never proven it at the major league level” as a reason why he shouldn’t come up…but if he never comes up, he’ll never be able to prove it at the major league level…
in short, we might have actually stumbled onto a serious diamond in the rough, post-hype prospect but the team is too damn stupid to realize it and will most likely squander the chance at uncovering a very interesting/cheap/young player. who just said darren o’day?
by Rob Castellano on Apr 7, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
He'd look good in the bullpen right now...
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Apr 7, 2010 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Well we all can make a huge list of Mets that if had a chance to prove they belong
it would be different. See Heath Bell, Dan Wheeler, Dotel. ETC. They are very inpatient and seem they like to play it safe with veterans like Catts and GMJ, then take a chance with a player with less experience and high upside. They are content to look foolish with an old washed up veteran then a rookie. Remember with the hype of Eddie Kunz and he was with the club for like 2 weeks and pitched 1 inning. Even if Carter was on the team he would get no playing time and pinch hit once a week, Maybe getting AB’s everyday in Buffalo and he rakes they have no choice but to play him?

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