How Omar Minaya Stacks Up
by Eno Sarris on May 14, 2010 1:00 PM EDT
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PrintA recent post over at Hotfootblog spurred some think-bombs in the ole noggin. The question being discussed is whether or not Omar Minaya is an above-average GM, despite the fact that 90.2% of the respondents in Hotfoot's poll said he wasn't. In response, each trade, free agent acquisition and draft pick Minaya has made in the last six years was dissected, resulting in five more pluses than minuses and the assertion that he was, yes, above-average.
Well, while the intention and effort were laudable, the results here might be a little different. First we'll take a look at some of the pluses that should have been minuses on the list, and then we'll add two huge minuses the list that should squarely push the needle into the red. We can admit to the belief that that Minaya wins most of his trades, and that he's had some success on the international level. He's no Dayton Moore. On the other hand, even above-average seems to be giving him too much credit.
First, let's list some trades that got grades that don't seem warranted:
2009:
+ (Carter has been tearing it up in the minors, Wagner is near retirement) 08/25/09 Traded Billy Wagner to the Red Sox for Chris Carter and Eddie Lora
+ (Frenchie has been great) 07/10/09 Traded Ryan Church to the Braves for Jeff Francoeur
2006:
= 07/19/06 Traded Jeff Keppinger to the Royals for Ruben Gotay
= 06/09/06 Traded Kazuo Matsui and cash to the Rockies for Eli Marrero
+ (Pagan has been solid) 01/25/06 Traded Angel Pagan to the Cubs for Cash
2005:
= 03/20/05 Traded Jason Phillips to the Dodgers for Kazuhisa Ishii
The Wagner/Carter trade being a positive for Minaya is the actually a gaffe, and certainly not a positive for the GM. IF he had let Billy Wagner go to the Braves in free agency, he would have netted the Mets two supplemental picks in the draft. As much as I love the Animal, he's a bench corner outfielder/first baseman with little or no D and only one option remaining. Nick Evans could have played that role and wouldn't have cost the team two draft picks. We'll call this an = sign, giving Minaya a little more credit than he deserves, especially since it took him until this week to even call up Chris Carter to the major leagues.
The Jeff Francoeur trade gets an = at most just because he's basically been a replacement-level player since he joined the Mets (and was only once average for a full season). It would be a minus sign if Ryan Church wasn't also a replacement-level player. The Jeff Keppinger / Ruben Gotay situation has similar overtones, but Keppinger does one thing that Gotay cannot. He can play shortstop. Would the team have blown $2 million on Alex Cora if they still had Keppinger to kick around? Who knows.
Kazuo Matsui was one of the few guys that Minaya gave up on too early (Matt Lindstrom and Heath Bell being much more prominent). Having Kaz might have kept him from one of his worst FA signings, Luis Castillo. Kaz has been worth around 3 War for $10 million the last two years, and Castillo 2.1 WAR for more money. Hmmm.... The Angel Pagan rating doesn't even make sense - it should have been a negative for trading him away, but he did get him back, so we should call that an equal sign. And I have to call trading away goggles a minus. I just have to.
For those keeping score at home, Minaya just lost three of his five net positive signs, Let's move on to FA signings.
2008
- John Maine2007
= Damion Easley2006
= Luis Castillo
One of the main critiques of this list is that it's too results-based. We'll have to give a positive back to Minaya because he actually did a good job with acquiring John Maine - but that was a trade, not a free agent signing. Still, let's give a positive back for Maine because he was a young pitcher with promise that Minaya spotted. He's given the Mets innings and has been worth almost 5 WAR for the Mets.
The Damion Easley signing looked good in retrospect, though - but was it a good idea in the moment? Easley was another Alex Cora that just happened to work out better. Omar loves his old, mediocre middle infielders, and do we really need to give him credit when it works out? See: Luis Castillo, a definite minus.
So we'll say he loses one point here. Now he's one point above zero.
It doesn't make any sense to talk about the results of each draft pick, in the end, so we'll just skip that part. What Minaya does deserve a negative point for, though, is spending the least amount of money on draft picks in baseball. Let that sink in. The Mets spent a mere $1.8 million to sign their picks last year. The Orioles, 15th in the league in that department, spent $5.147 million. That's embarrassing. He deserves multiple negatives for that one, considering the relative incomes of the two teams in question here. But we'll just give him one.
So now we are at zero. But there are two more places where Minaya is decidedly below average. Minaya is terrible at media relations - Adam Rubin anyone - and also not good at organizational management - Tony Bernazard for example. Those are two solid, solid negatives that are important to the GM's job and decidedly push Minaya into the red. While Minaya might be okay at determining which talent to keep and which talent to trade, and has done an okay job at free agents beyond perhaps Jason Bay and Luis Castillo, those are not the only parts of the job. He's done a poor job of filling the bench, dealing with the media, drafting domestically, and running a tight organization with fixed roles. Those facets of his 'game' may not be as obvious, but they are important. And they drag him squarely into below-average territory.
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Can we really blame the lack of money spent on draft picks on him?
We don’t know what kind of draft budget he’s given. Though that being said it seems like some of their issues are incompetence even there, like not starting negotiations with players until months after you’ve drafted them.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
Also I don't really think Minaya is that below average if you're looking
at just NL gms, cause all around NL gms are pretty mediocre, I think the problem is our front office as a whole seems to have few redeeming qualities.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
but omar has the most money to play with
and his results have at best been average. taken in context it makes him a below average gm.
I'd disagree
he has the most money to play with but even compared to the spending of comparable big market gms he’s much better. Sabean, Colleti, Wade all have big pocket books, not as big but big, and have all spent much worse.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
Like we're complaining about paying Cora 2.5 million this year and possibly next
the dodgers on the hook for 6,5 with another 6 million option (1.25 million buy out) for friggin Casey Blake (who they also sent Carlos Santana for to compound the insanity.)
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
wow what n the world you're right
I swear I looked earlier and it said .6, I must have been looking at the wrong player.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
These are some odd names to compare Omar to
Wade helped build a championship team in Philly, while Sabean’s Giants were 14th in payroll last year.
formerly known around these parts as nycbroncosfan
by Douglas A. Lee on May 14, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah I actually didn't realize how far behind the Giants were in payroll
though on the other hand I would think that would make things like the Rowand and Zito deals look even worse.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
They also won 88 games last year…
formerly known around these parts as nycbroncosfan
by Douglas A. Lee on May 14, 2010 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
this is weird logic
So the Giants won 88 games, playing in a ridiculously weak division with their rotation fronted by the best pitcher in baseball. This automatically means Sabean is a genius?
who called him a genius?
formerly known around these parts as nycbroncosfan
by Douglas A. Lee on May 14, 2010 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
we won more than them in 08 and 07?
So whats your point. Basically because they were so bad and because the Royals royally effed up they lucked into Lincecum.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
Omar’s Mets won 70 games with a $139 million payroll, while Sabean’s Giants won 88 games with an $89 million payroll. My point is this – why does Sabean making bad FA signings make him a worse GM than Omar? Plus, it’s not exactly fair to take credit away from him for drafting Lincecum. You play the cards you’re dealt…
formerly known around these parts as nycbroncosfan
by Douglas A. Lee on May 14, 2010 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Omar won 70 games wit a 139 million dollar payroll
with his top players injured, how is that even a relevant comparison? It’s not like the players he was paying most of that money too was on the field winning 70 games.
And there’s also the general Sabean insanity, like trading Tim Alderson for an overpaid Freddy Sanchez, or trading Scott Barnes for a player they then proceeded to nontender. Dfaing the cost controlled Fred Lewis. Omar isn’t much of a gm but he also manages to avoid doing things that are just insane.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
I don’t mean to be pumping up Sabean. I just don’t see how he’s clearly worse than Omar. IMO, they’re both awful.
But really, Omar doesn’t do things that are just insane? Ollie, Castillo, Mota, Alou, Heath Bell, Lindstrom and Bay all qualify in my book, off the top of my head…
formerly known around these parts as nycbroncosfan
by Douglas A. Lee on May 14, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
How is Ollie as insane
as giving away players? I mean Ollie was dumb but there’s a major difference between a dumb free agent signing and giving away one of your top 5 prospects.
And how is Bay dumb? I’m not a fan but we have a decent chance of breaking even on the contract. I don’t see how you don’t see the major difference between trading your top ten prospects for virtually nothing and questionable free agent signings. the Zito signing was questionable, the Garko trade was inexplicable.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
I usually agree with you, but $36M for 3yrs was insane.
DFA’ing Fred Lewis isn’t even close to the collossal misuse of resources that Ollie’s contract is.
by SoCal Metfan on May 14, 2010 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
dfa'ing fred lewis wasn't
but things like trading Tim Alderson for a player you dfa was. Ollie was a horrible trade, but really a team like the mets should be able to eat his salary, the problem stems from them not doing that.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
Sure was
Especially when measured against Brian Fuentes
formerly known around these parts as nycbroncosfan
by Douglas A. Lee on May 14, 2010 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Another straw man. I never EVER said signing Ollie was dumber than the Giants signing Zito. But sure, keep putting words in my mouth…
formerly known around these parts as nycbroncosfan
by Douglas A. Lee on May 14, 2010 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry, you're right.
However, SoCal also did not compare Ollie to Zito…
formerly known around these parts as nycbroncosfan
by Douglas A. Lee on May 14, 2010 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Again, I’m not defending Sabean. I didn’t compare Ollie to anything Sabean did. You’re putting a lot of words in my mouth.
From day one, I’ve hated the Bay signing because I don’t see him being very good for the second half of the contract. Obviously I could be wrong, but he hasn’t even been as good thus far as I expected.
formerly known around these parts as nycbroncosfan
by Douglas A. Lee on May 14, 2010 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think he'll be good for the second half of his
contract either. But no big contract given to a 30 year old, or even a late 20s pitcher, is expecting them to be worth near it at the end of the deal.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
If you don’t think he’ll be worth it later on, then why was it a good move in the first place?
formerly known around these parts as nycbroncosfan
by Douglas A. Lee on May 14, 2010 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think it was a good deal
but I imagine it was the Wilpons wanted to save some face by not looking like they weren’t doing anything after a 70 loss season. Plus like I said, at best you’re expected to break even on free agent contracts, Santana won’t be worth his price at the end of the deal either, but the surplus value when the contract is signed is usually enough to put you in a better position to win which justifies the loss at the end.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
what would you have done instead of signing Bay, then?
In a vacuum, sure, it’s better to get everyone but the superstars on a one-year deal. But how could you have added anything close to Bay’s production, in that FA market, without signing a long-term contract? And how was Bay’s deal, with the relatively reasonable length in years, vastly preferable to the main alternative in Holliday?
Did we HAVE to spend that money? Is there a salary floor I’m not aware of that we were in danger of not reaching? What did I say about Holliday? Wow, you sure are a fan of the straw man. Goodness.
formerly known around these parts as nycbroncosfan
by Douglas A. Lee on May 14, 2010 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
? No one here likes Omar
have you read any other comments?
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
"Omar isn’t much of a gm but he also manages to avoid doing things that are just insane."
That was you above, wasn’t it?
formerly known around these parts as nycbroncosfan
by Douglas A. Lee on May 14, 2010 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah because trading a top 5 prospect
for nothing, is just insane. Overpaying a player isn’t.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
no, but IMO we basically had to add equivalent production
My point is, if you agree the Mets needed to add a bat of Bay’s caliber, then the Bay deal was a good choice given the available options. It seems like you disagree with the premise and would’ve rather they just rode out the year with a weaker lineup — that’s a fine position but I don’t see the media or the Wilpons going for it.
That is absolutely how I felt.
I’d have preferred giving Bay $40 million over two years to what we ended up with. I’m not saying that was an option, but tying up so much payroll for four (or five) years is going to cost us down the road.
formerly known around these parts as nycbroncosfan
by Douglas A. Lee on May 14, 2010 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I would have preferred
something like that but I don’t think Bay was gonna sign here for that. I imagine another team(correct me if I’m wrong, but weren’t the Giants a rumored destination for Bay?) would’ve swooped in and paid him his 4 years.
There may be sunny days ahead.
I would have preferred not signing
him, but I don’t think that was an option because of PR pressure.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
Signing Ollie is just as insane as giving away players
because it was giving away money, which is used to pay players.
there's no way giving away one of your top 4 prospects
is as insane as giving out a bad contract. bad contracts happen all the time. people don’t just give away top 4 prospects for players they nontender for no apparent reason.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
your book is weird
Many (not all) of those players/trades are fairly defensible ones, and the fact that you included Bay makes me doubt everything else you say. I don’t know which move “Ollie” or “Castillo” refers to — those are clearly bad contracts he signed them to, but the initial trade for Ollie was a very good one, and Castillo is still a very useful player who’s arguably earned his salary each year so far.
Castillo has earned it. Wow.
Guy has been worth 2.4 WAR over the life of the contract, while Orlando Hudson was worth 2.9 WAR last year alone.
formerly known around these parts as nycbroncosfan
by Douglas A. Lee on May 14, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Gina, don’t forget here that you’re judging Sabean on trading away guys who are still merely prospects. They haven’t done anything yet, and in fact Alderson and Barnes are getting lit up so far this year. Obviously they can still become something and make Sabean look bad, but you can’t judge the trades based upon presumed success, can you?
In contrast, we already know that Omar’s moves didn’t work, like trading Bell and Lindstrom away for absolutely nothing.
formerly known around these parts as nycbroncosfan
by Douglas A. Lee on May 14, 2010 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions
i voted no
But I dont think he is a below average. Unfortunately for him he works in NY and expectations to win are high
I love Vegas
I really think the only thing thats saved him from being terrible is his budget.
If he hadn’t had the budget to force the twins hand, sign Beltran, and take on salary dumps like Delgado he’d likely be on a level with Sabean and Moore. He was and is a decent scout, but he doesn’t seem to be able to give up on players that had great seasons 5 years ago. He also doesn’t seem to grasp the impotance of having non-superstar players. Most moves he makes are boom or bust.
Reyes, Thole, Wright, Beltran, Bay, Davis, Martinez, Tejada...
by Stephen Schmidt on May 14, 2010 1:13 PM EDT reply actions
*importance*
Reyes, Thole, Wright, Beltran, Bay, Davis, Martinez, Tejada...
by Stephen Schmidt on May 14, 2010 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Sabean has a pretty big budget too
the Giants are a top ten revenue team. It’s not like he’s broke. He’s just insane. And I’d say Colleti is even worse considering the budget, well at least until this year, he pretty much survived on DePodesta’s left overs and wasted their resources on players like Jason Schmidt, Juan Pierre and Andruw Jones, even Omar was smart enough to say no to that.
Ed Wade I believe has a pretty big budget too, but I don’t know how ownership affects his decision makings, since they seem to be anti rebuild.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
I mean I know I say things like
he shouldn’t get credit for being able to spend the Wilpons money just like everyone else but when you look at some of the comparable gms he might actually deserve some credit. At least he handed out his big deals to guys like Beltran and not Carlos Lee or Andruw Jones, thank God for small miracles right?
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
He has gotten really lucky
that GMs have outstupided him, though. For example, Sabean outbidding him to overpay Barry Zito.
by JohnPeterson on May 14, 2010 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd say Sabean, Colletti, Wade, and Moore are all worse than Omar.
After that, I can’t think of anyone worse.
by JohnPeterson on May 14, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I think those three are definitely worse, just talking about NL gms
and then Amaro and Hendry are probably about I actually think Hendry has put his team in a much worse position financially and gotten just as many of the small trades terribly wrong.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
Yes, I would lump Amaro and Hendry in with Minaya.
Then we get into the unknown GMs, and then the good ones. There isn’t much of a gray area. There is no “average” GM.
by JohnPeterson on May 14, 2010 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
More like a few months
and if anything that’s the kind of thing that should prevent you from spending, although I guess maybe he gave out so many insanely backloaded contracts because of it or something.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
sounds about right
Worst is a stretch, but Omar is in the bottom quartile, for sure, and there’s a big gap between them and any reasonable definition of “average.”
He's like an old school GM
where some nobody in the organization (Costanza) gets to sign the marginal players— even though the marginal players can be super-important.
by JohnPeterson on May 14, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey, I'd kill for Costanza.
He thought of a way for the Yankees to get Griffey Jr. and Bonds without giving that much up.
Omar loves his old, mediocre middle infielders, and do we really need to give him credit when it works out?
Yes. Yes we do. If you’re going to evaluate Minaya’s track record, you either have to do so with the benefit of hindsight or without it. You used it in every example except Easley’s, so he should merit it, too.
by Matthew Artus on May 14, 2010 1:15 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
A few excerpts
On Francoeur:
The Jeff Francoeur trade gets an = at most just because he’s basically been a replacement-level player since he joined the Mets (and was only once average for a full season). It would be a minus sign if Ryan Church wasn’t also a replacement-level player.On Matsui:
Kazuo Matsui was one of the few guys that Minaya gave up on too earlyOn Pagan:
The Angel Pagan rating doesn’t even make sense – it should have been a negative for trading him away, but he did get him back, so we should call that an equal sign.On Maine:
He’s given the Mets innings and has been worth almost 5 WAR for the Mets.No, hindsight isn’t the crux of those arguments. But they’re clearly factors. And if they’re factors in those examples, why can’t they be one for Easley as well?
by Matthew Artus on May 14, 2010 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Um what?
how is Matsui or Pagan hindsight? It’s not like Matsui has done much since we traded him he’s saying he gave up too early at the time. And as far as the others I’m not sure how else you should evaluate trading of prospects or players of relatively equal value, like Frenchy and Church.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
Eno’s argument about Matsui was that, in hindsight, he could’ve been a better option than Castillo at second base.
And the Pagan comment uses hindsight because it would’ve been a negative for trading him, but ended up being a positive for reacquiring him. Hindsight makes that possible.
His argument is more elaborate than that, but he uses hindsight as part of his arsenal. That’s why it should be fair game with Easley, too.
by Matthew Artus on May 14, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Matsui/Castillo
Actually, I’d argue that the Matsui / Castillo situation was bad from a strategic /foresight standpoint too. Why get rid of a capable 2B with okay defense to replace him with a fading defender with only one discernible skill (OBP) at a much higher cost? I think the Castillo signing, and how he got there, is as bad as the Ollie signing, and how he got there. He picks the wrong guys on the periphery. He’s okay at the studs, but on the periphery and the bench he’s pretty poor.
hold on
Acquiring Maine was genius in the moment too. Young arm for free almost.
You may be right about some hindsight analysis jumping in tho. It’s hard to avoid.
Though I would say that the major minuses – media handling, organizational skills, and the slashing of the drafting budget – factor in more than his (perhaps) above-average eye for the player to trade away and the player to keep. And those aren’t necessarily results-based, other than to say Omar’s results in those fields have been terrible, but only because his process is bad.
I think Minaya is meh as a GM.
Cant the Wilpons just put him ini charge if international scouting and hire someone thats more seasoned in the all-around GM duties?
by SFloridaMetsFan on May 14, 2010 1:18 PM EDT reply actions
That Hotfoot post is TERRIBLE.
Full of errors and just untrue things. The Wagner trade is a great example. The casual fan doesn’t know about Type A free agents and how when a team signs one, the old team gets their 1st round pick AND a supplemental pick between the first and second rounds. That is HUGE!
The Wagner trade is a classic example of a smart organization (the Red Sox) burning a caveman organization (the Mets), and it makes me furious that I have to root for the cavemen.
by JohnPeterson on May 14, 2010 1:18 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
bingo
This whole method of evaluating GMs is really dubious — starting with the idea that counting the number of net-positive deals is the right way to go, so every little “+” gets the same amount of credit whether it’s a mildly positive addition to the bench or a major talent acquisition. Gives Omar way too much credit for little gambles that sometimes break right, and way too little blame for never being able to assemble a deep and balanced roster.
yeah but i enjoy rooted for unfrozen caveman lawyer
so that plus equals everything out
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.
It has to be a no
because I feel he’s an average GM. Eno I disagree with you slapping a negative on Omar for not paying his draft picks as I think it might be more an indictment of the Wilpons than it is Omar.
There may be sunny days ahead.
Name 14 or 15 GMs who are worse than Omar.
Just try it. It’s impossible.
by JohnPeterson on May 14, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Well I think the problem is
if you look at it in terms of total MLB AL gms will dominate the list, the NL as a whole seems to be a decade behind.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
I'll try to name some worse than Omar
Sabean (SF) Could’ve had Lincecum, Cain, Sanchez, Liriano with Nathan coming out of the ‘pen. In 13 years he hasn’t been able to build an offense.
Moore (KC)
Hendry (Chi-N) Soriano, A-Ram, Silva … wow!
Colletti (LAD)
Amaro (Phi) the ridiculous Howard contract is worse than anything Omar has ever done
Ed Wade (Hou)
Mozeliak (StL) Traded lots of young talent for a very overrated player in Holliday and is ultimately going to tie up almost half his payroll in three players, Pujols, Wainwright and Holliday
Wren (Atl) He’s been pretty poor in Atlanta (Wagner, expecting anything from Glaus, Lowe, Glavine, M Gonzalez, Garret Anderson). At least Omar signs aging players to small deals, Wren blows out the payroll on senior citizens. I just discovered that he was the Orioles GM from 98-99, also known as the beginning of the end in Baltimore, that has to count for something, right?
I can’t include Andy McPhail of Baltimore, Mike Rizzo the Nats GM and Jed Hoyer the new GM in SD since they are very recent GM hires so it’s not fair to analyze their work yet. Maybe they can turn their franchises’ fortunes around?
That makes 8 current GMs out of 27 that I would not trade Omar for.
Omar is very much average but not the worst
What?
How in the world is Holliday very overrated? And what’s wrong with typing up a good portion of your payroll in well above average players? We’ve got payroll tied up in guys like Castillo, Perez and K-rod.
And I don’t see how Wren has been poor, or what Gonzales has to do with anything.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
Mike Gonzalez was a guy that Atlanta counted on who had a spotty history health wise. If Omar made that move he would get torched in the press (see Putz, JJ).
Maybe I was a little harsh on Mozeliak, I just have a feeling if St. Louis was in the East rather than the perennially poor Central the holes in their lineup would be exposed. I also think once St. Louis ties up all that money in their top 3 the rest of their lineup will get worse.
What?
Omar gave up 7 players for a player coming off an injury plagued season who they didn’t even give a full physical too. The Braves made a pretty even swap with an under performing first basemen and got a solid prospect, lilibridge back with Gonzales. They also weren’t paying him 5 million after handing a ridiculous contract out to a closer. The situation aren’t even comparable.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
I agree with you
but LaRoche was coming off of a .285 .354 .561 Season at age 26. I don’t know if I would call him under performing. He was also only going into his first year of arbitration so he was cheap and they had control over him for another 3 years.
Wren hasn't been good by any stretch
He’s been benefitted by inheriting a very good farm system, and he’s made a few good moves. I actually think he’s a very good comparable for Omar…he’s nailed a few moves but has really had some bad ones in there as well.
Reyes, Thole, Wright, Beltran, Bay, Davis, Martinez, Tejada...
by Stephen Schmidt on May 14, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
but he hasn't made anywhere near the bad moves
And he’s done a good job of restocking the system and acquiring young talent for older veterans.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
Huh?
He’s basically swapped Vizcaino for Flowers and acquired Jurrjens for Renteria. What other moves has he made to restock the farm? If anything he’s hurt the farm, trading away parts for guys like Nate McClouth and making stupid decisions annually for type A free agents (Glavine, Lowe, Wagner).
Reyes, Thole, Wright, Beltran, Bay, Davis, Martinez, Tejada...
by Stephen Schmidt on May 14, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
You keep saying he's hurt the farm trading away parts
but he traded all of like 4 parts for McClouth. Only two of whom really were even prospects, one of whom was blocked by their plethora of outfield prospects and who was acquired as part of the Renteria deal anyway. The only players he’s moved and hasn’t replaced really is Morton. And their first round pick was protected last year so all it cost them was a 2nd round pick, nothing like sacrificing a first rounder to give K-rod 51 million.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
But who has he brought in exactly?
Vizcaino and Jurrjens are essentially it. Look at all of his moves, and tell me beyond the Jurrjens trade and Vazquez acquisition what other moves he’s made that have been great? I guess the Hudson extension was solid. The McClouth deal was meh, Anderson was bad, signing Wagner, Glavine, and Lowe are all bad signings, he butchered the Soriano situation, and he’s given up an entire season of team control on Heyward to have him up for 9 extra games. Kawakami looks like a bad contract, the Chipper extension doesn’t seem to be too great either. He let Kelly Johnson and Ryan Church go to save money but then brought in Melky Cabrera at over 3 million? And why exactly didn’t he offer LaRoche arbitration? Frank Wren isn’t on the level with Sabean, but he’s hardly done anything to warrant praise. If anything, he’s probably a middle of the road GM at best.
Reyes, Thole, Wright, Beltran, Bay, Davis, Martinez, Tejada...
by Stephen Schmidt on May 14, 2010 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions
There was no Chipper extension
he had a vesting option that vested. And my point is that the only real prospects they’ve given up they replaced, or they got as part of package deals to begin with. There’s been no butchering of the farm system Jurrjens and Vizcaino basically replaced what they’ve moved.
And Laroche would have gotten 8-10 million in arbitration, which is about 4 million more than. They’re payroll from last year is down over 10 million. Church can’t play centerfield which is why I assume they preferred Cabrera. The Johnson move I didn’t understand at all. But they’re payrolls down about 13 million total despite their team being projected to win basically the same number of games. So even if you don’t agree with the individual moves, he did shave about 13 million in payroll without actually losing anything in talent. So the end product was saving money in an efficient way.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
Chipper signed a 3 year extensio last March 31 for 42 million which includes a vest.
Reyes, Thole, Wright, Beltran, Bay, Davis, Martinez, Tejada...
by Stephen Schmidt on May 14, 2010 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah i actually didn't realize that
I thought the original vesting contract extended him. Meh I’m not a fan but I imagine it’s one of those cases where the value to the franchise actually might make up for the value on the field. Chipper’s the face of the franchise and their most popular player, paying him 13 million the next 3 season really isn’t as egregious as paying someone like Howard 25 million per. He was coming off a 7 win season and even in his awful down year last year he was worth 13 million. I really don’t think it’s out of the question they still break even on the on field value.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
And actually even with his slow start
he’s on pace to be worth well more than that.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
It's not awful, but I think it was a case of him overreacting to fan backlash about Smoltz.
He could certainly end up being worth the contract, but showing a little patience likely would have resulted in a better deal for the Braves. It’s the same as the closer situation this year, where he could have kept Soriano on a reasonable one year deal and not given up the 20th pick if he had just shown some patience. He also really rushed the Soriano thing, as I’m sure he could have gotten a much better return than Jesse Chavez.
Reyes, Thole, Wright, Beltran, Bay, Davis, Martinez, Tejada...
by Stephen Schmidt on May 14, 2010 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah but even if he rushed
I don’t understand what the big deal is. They likely still won’t be overpaying Chipper and he’s a fan favorite. Where’s the problem? Maybe he could have saved 1-2 million?
I mean I just don’t see the gripe, he’s been pretty farm system neutral, and had a great 2008 draft despite a meh 2010 one. He managed to cut the payroll by over 10 million without sacrificing wins, I mean is he Andrew Friedman? Obviously not, but I don’t see how he’s arguably as bad as Omar.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
I just see him as being a very good comparable.
That may be a little harsh, but I hated the offseason he had. Giving up a top 20 pick to sign Wagner was worse than Omar trading Wagner away. I hated the return on the Vazquez trade as I thought he could have added a better part than Melky via free agency and Vizcaino is still really far away and risky. I also cant find any excuse for wasting a season of Jason Heyward for 9 games at the beginning of the season. I hated the offseason he had, but I loved it as a Mets fan.
Reyes, Thole, Wright, Beltran, Bay, Davis, Martinez, Tejada...
by Stephen Schmidt on May 14, 2010 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
My guess
they’re probably planning on signing Heyward to an extension so it doesn’t really matter. Leaving him down for 9 games could cause grievances to be filed by the players union. Super two players usually stay down much longer than 9 games and they might not have thought they could afford to leave him down that long and keep pace.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
Maybe
That extension probably just got alot more expensive though.
Reyes, Thole, Wright, Beltran, Bay, Davis, Martinez, Tejada...
by Stephen Schmidt on May 14, 2010 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah but do you think he was
going to sign one before now? I mean it was going to get expensive either way. Either they leave him down 9 games and face grievances, leave him down for like a month and miss out on his production, or they just bring him up.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
The players union would never win that grievance.
All the Braves had to do was make it known that they didn’t want to expose a player to waivers until they evaluated them more to add him and they’d have won any grievance. It would be more ammo for the union in the next CBA, but it never would amount to anything.
Reyes, Thole, Wright, Beltran, Bay, Davis, Martinez, Tejada...
by Stephen Schmidt on May 14, 2010 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
huh expose him to waivers?
what? He has options. When would he be exposed to waivers.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
oh i see what you mean
that might have made sense except I don’t think they had anyone who didn’t have options. to use that argument for.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
He exposed Acosta to waivers to make room for Heyward.
All he had to do was claim he needed a few more performances to decide between Acosta and Reyes (which is fairly reasonable), and he’d have a good enough reason to keep Heyward off the 40 for another week and a half.
Reyes, Thole, Wright, Beltran, Bay, Davis, Martinez, Tejada...
by Stephen Schmidt on May 14, 2010 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah but then they would have
had to actually use apocalypse now. Not to mention that seems like the kind of thing that would put a rift between management and a potential superstar.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
And wow I probably should have finished my thought
Laroche likely would have gotten about 8-9 million more than Glaus got (1.75 million) despite the fact he’s likely going to produce similar value.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
I disagree completely with that.
Glaus was a nice risk/reward move, but I don’t think they’ll be all that close in value when all is said and done. I also think theirs virtually no chance LaRoche would have accepted arb, as he had a two year deal that would have paid him 9 million per until SF went and signed Huff (and as a type B, it wouldn’t have affected the offer). LaRoche screwed himself by sitting on that offer for too long.
Reyes, Thole, Wright, Beltran, Bay, Davis, Martinez, Tejada...
by Stephen Schmidt on May 14, 2010 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions
what?
Laroche turned the Giants down, he never had a deal with them signed. He didn’t want to move and then when the market dried up he had to settle for Arizona.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
Thats what I meant...LaRoche turned down a very decent deal.
Reyes, Thole, Wright, Beltran, Bay, Davis, Martinez, Tejada...
by Stephen Schmidt on May 14, 2010 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah but that was because he didn't want to move
not because he thought he could get more
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
And I don't understand what there is to disagree with
if he was a type B, then who cares that they didn’t offer arbitration? Plus with the way the market had collapsed there was really no reason to think than 10 million might not be something Laroche accepted, considering what guys like Burrel and Dunn got in 08, they saved 9 million and I don’t know why you disagree but got a player who will likely provide the same value, plus they got Hinske who’s been a 1.5-2 WAR player the last two years. There’s no way their not worlds better off with Glaus and Hinske than with Laroche.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
are you kidding?
This isn’t supposed to be a list of teams you’re glad you haven’t been rooting for for 20 years. If you wouldn’t choose Neal Huntington over Omar, you’re just not paying attention. There’s not even any argument to be made.
wait wait wait...
Huntington is better than Omar? What are some of his positives?
by Mike Clemente on May 14, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Ummm
He actually knows how to evaluate the worth of a baseball player, instead of just guessing.
by JohnPeterson on May 14, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
things Neal Huntington is better at than Omar, a partial list:
1. Player evaluation and performance forecasting
2. Organization-running (scouting, farm system, development, front-office personnel)
3. Every aspect of trading (deciding whom to deal when, maximizing value in the returned players)
4. Roster construction
5. PR and media relations
6. Payroll management (maximizing value for dollar)
I know there is a lot of hate built up towards Omar, but what has Neil Huntington done? Yes, he cleared the decks and is trying to make the best of an atrocious situation, but I wouldn’t give him credit for fixing anything just yet
That's because you're not paying attention.
by JohnPeterson on May 14, 2010 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Well put
Huntington has that team on the right track for sure. He’s had two very good drafts and managed to add a few solid prospects by unloading overrated parts (Wilson, Sanchez, McClouth).
Reyes, Thole, Wright, Beltran, Bay, Davis, Martinez, Tejada...
by Stephen Schmidt on May 14, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
That's the problem.
For too many (including owners and COOs), GM evaluation is entirely about on-field performance. Huntington inherited an organization that had been absolutely crippled from more than a decade of horrible decision-making. He is doing some excellent work there rebuilding a strong foundation, yet casual fans like caonenine see the consecutive losing seasons and assume that the current GM is bad.
Much like people say Oakland’s lack of recent success indicate that “Moneyball has failed” despite Oakland’s stock of young talent and relative success given their payroll, or Cleveland being criticized even though they have maintained a strong foundation and have been a little unlucky.
People are just dumb, I guess.
by JohnPeterson on May 14, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
plus you know the whole fact Moneyball
has worked out pretty well for the Red Sox
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
So because Neil Huntington has ‘made some changes’ and I failed to acknowledge that I’m dumb? It’s his third year running the club and there aren’t many apparent signs of a turnaround.
I didn’t say Oakland or Cleveland are failed orgs. As a matter of fact, if you look at the list of GMs I gave you, most of them are from ‘Stone Age’ organizations.
Man, I’m sorry I insulted your precious Pirates.
I remember
when I was touting the Rays for years and people thought I was insane. The Pirates aren’t as loaded as the Rays, but it’s a similar situation. It’s very unlikely that many prospects a GM drafts or trades for are going to show signs at the big league level of a turnaround in just two years. Think of how many high school prospects are in the bigs AND contributing after two years.. not many.
ain't had enough...
You're serious?
You would take Minaya over Huntington? Huntington is miles better than Omar.
by JohnPeterson on May 14, 2010 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
what has he done?
Not playing devil’s advocate, I’m generally interested to know
by Mike Clemente on May 14, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
stockpiled a lot of cost controlled young average to above average players
and gotten maximum value for guys like Nady and Sanchez.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
I thought they got nothing for sanchez and wilson
basically giving them away for nothing. Am i wrong about that?
by Mike Clemente on May 14, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I've heard completely contradictory things about many of his moves
Honestly, I don’t keep very close tabs on the Pirates, but it seemed like every deal they’ve made over the past two seasons have been simultaneously criticized and praised in different quarters (and I am not talking about Fangraphs vs. ESPN).
Honestly, I think the jury is out on Huntington until we see how the pieces he acquired develops. But I don’t think it’s completely unfair to judge a GM ultimately by the won-loss record – you just can’t do that yet for Huntington. But if this franchise goes another 3 years without a winner, then I have no problems with being critical of his approach.
From someone who watches a painful amount of painful Pirates games
Like, you say the jury is out. He inherited a small budget, a team with mediocre major-leaguers (or worse) with expring contracts and no farm.
He identified the correct overall strategy for this situation. That, I don’t think is really debatable. Trade the veterans for whatever you could, looking for either young low-ceiling guys that could fill the roster for the duration of the rebuild (the Ohlendorfs, Karstens and Mosses of the world) or once promising, now faded prospects (Clement, Milledge, some would say Alderson). He couldn’t trade for much more because he didn’t have more to offer. A year of Jack Wilson isn’t getting anyone’s attention.
In the draft, he took the big name one year (Alvarez), a big deal considering his predecessor Littlefield passed on Wieters because of $. The next year he signed Tony Sanchez for cheap but then spent heavily in the later rounds (mainly on HS pitchers), showing that this wasn’t the Littlefield regime all over again.
Where I think Huntington has shown a weakness is in letting relationships with certain players get sour. Snell and Gorzelanny ended their tenure with the Pirates on bad terms. Huntington can be very candid about his players (see the quote about Tabata’s age). While I like to hear the truth from my GM, it’s sometimes necessary to sugar-coat it. I won’t miss Snell but I hated the Gorzo for Hart trade the minute it happened and god forbid Huntington gets in a war of words with a key player. It’s too early to tell if this will really be a longterm problem. I’m sure the PR takes some getting used to.
What we don’t know about Huntington and his team and what is most important is if he can pick the right players. It seems he gets the process but if you don’t pick the right guys, that doesn’t really matter. For that reason, it’s impossible for me to call him a good or a bad GM yet.
That said, I root for both the Mets and Pirates and if forced to choose, I would pick Huntington over Omar because I know what Omar’s about and I don’t like it.
by OlStubbleBeard on May 14, 2010 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
what?
not even close. They got Tim Alderson who the giants 2nd best pitching prospect and pretty easily a top 50-100 prospect who most people expect to have a #2 pitcher ceiling. He was the Giants first round pick in 2007 and coming off an insane 2008 campaign. Sickels gave him an A- in 2009 I believe. Sanchez on the other hand is a declining player probably being overpaid at this point.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
along with Ian Snell for Ronny Cedeño and Minor League players Jeff Clement, Aaron Pribanic, Brett Lorin, and Nathan Adcock
i dont know anything about anyone past clement
by Mike Clemente on May 14, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
And I think you might be overvaluing Wilson
I think the deal overall was pretty lateral but that’s mostly because I don’t think Wilson is all that valuable. Pittsburgh at least got some cheap back of the rotation options out of the deal.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
and cost control
If you run an organization like the Pirates you have to be ready to deal players when they’re about to get a big raise. The Wilson deal was about payroll more than talent.
Traded the right players, acquired the right players, signed the right players.
Not trading away the farm for short-lived mediocre success, building a strong scouting and development foundation and basically educating an organization out of the stone age.
by JohnPeterson on May 14, 2010 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
sorry, you're nuts
I’d take Mozeliak — hell, I’d take Mozeliak’s most junior assistant — to run the Mets over Omar. Wren is budget-constrained and has still made some smart moves. Amaro and Hendry are somewhere in Omar’s league but I’d honestly prefer to have either one of them running the team as they seem to have some idea about roster-building.
They're all about in the same class
Excepting Mozeliak, I think all the guys just referenced are in about the same class. I can’t really think of anything that Wren has done that places him clearly ahead of Minaya. Hendrey is certainly no better, and Amaro is turning into a mini-me version of Omar.
As John says below, the problem is that the bad GMs are all kind of in one class, with the top tier GMs in another class, with no discernible middle.
yeah, I guess this is a fair point
I think Wren’s budgetary caution and some of his buy-low moves have been laudable, and I cut him some slack for being under a pretty tight set of financial limits. Amaro or Hendry vs. Omar is just a pick-your-poison decision — they have different weaknesses but they’re all pretty poor at the job.
The Cubs are a bigger mess than the Mets by a pretty wide margin. At least the Mets have some youth on their roster.
Wren is surviving off the talent John Scheurholz acquired. Did you forget that he signed Glavine early for no reason and gift wrapped a compensatory pick for the Mets?
He also had a pretty awesome 2008 draft
and has acquired some young players pretty cheaply, like the Edgar Renteria deal which got Jurrjens and another piece they turned into McClouth, and essentially swapping Flowers for Vizcaino.
And how do the cubs not have youth? Soto, Castro, Colvin, Wells, Marmol, Marshall are relatively young, and while for the most part their not otherwordly they’re at least around average. I’m pretty certain, outside of maybe Wright and Reyes who weren’t brought in under Minaya, they have no less youth than we do.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
The problem is that there is a group at the bottom
and a big group at top, jostling for position. The ones at the top are just playing a whole different game than the ones at the bottom, stuck in the stone age. So we can’t really have an “average” GM— it doesn’t make sense.
by JohnPeterson on May 14, 2010 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Moore, Sabean, Hendry Colletti and Wade are as bad or worse
But Amaro, Mozeliak and Wren are easily, easily better than Omar.
by SoCal Metfan on May 14, 2010 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, that's not right.
Amar isn’t head and shoulders, but overall, I think he’s better than Omar.
by SoCal Metfan on May 14, 2010 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Amaro is easily as bad.
That Howard extension will be worse than any move Omar has ever made, and he emptied the rest of his farm system to swap Cliff Lee for Roy Halladay. He’s also now commited to fielding this exact same aging squad for the next three seasons, at which point they will all be past their primes.
Reyes, Thole, Wright, Beltran, Bay, Davis, Martinez, Tejada...
by Stephen Schmidt on May 14, 2010 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions
This is a good point
I should have listed all the GMs and tried to rank him. That’s a bit of a bear It’s also hard to parse what is the Wilpon’s fault and what is Omar’s fault.
Still, wouldn’t that make Omar possibly 18th/27 in your estimation? Sounds like below average.
It should be pointed out
Hotfoot gave the Eddie Kunz pick a +
I don’t know what kind of crazy world you have to live in to call that pick a +
2009 Did Not Happen
he also give the milledge trade a +
milledge hasn’t been great, but it was also selling pretty low on our top prospect at the time, after he was coming off an injury plagued season.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
In just reading it,
HotFott got a lot wrong IMO. Examples: the Matthews trade is not equal(GMJ has no business anywhere near a ML roster), the Carter/Wags one Eno noted, the Castro/Broadway should be a negative, the Lastings & Slappy trades I would rule as a negative, Frenchy for Church is an = at this point, Pedro’s a negative but Thunder God is a +?, and Esco being a -(I know he was injured, but it was a good move). Forgive the run-on though.
There may be sunny days ahead.
Slappy was a good trade IMHO
The contract that followed…. not so much.
by SFloridaMetsFan on May 14, 2010 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I should've seperated
the trade from the contract he later received. But still, Omir Santos is a positive acquisition while Pedro Martinez is a negative one? That’s incredibly hard to believe.
There may be sunny days ahead.
that would make it a positive
no soup for you.
by pricedoutoftheciti on May 14, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
you mean inifinity negative to the infinite power
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on May 14, 2010 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah not a math major
ha ha. So if you multiply two negatives they become a positive? But if I make 4 mistakes and then make four more mistakes, and then throws those mistakes together I’d get a +16? Maybe that’s what Omar is doing! That’s his plan!
Add negatives and you get more negative...
multiply and you get positive
by Mike Clemente on May 14, 2010 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Meh...
It wasn’t a good move, but the cost is really so low that it doesn’t hurt much. Odds are he’s released when Beltran is back and thats the end of it. It’s certainly nowhere near the level of moves like Perez, Castillo, or even the Wagner trade.
Reyes, Thole, Wright, Beltran, Bay, Davis, Martinez, Tejada...
by Stephen Schmidt on May 14, 2010 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
It's not the cost of the trade itself, but the opportunity cost of the roster spot being used by a below replacement level player when you have a league min CF who plays superb defense.
It’s more about a roster construction criticism than the trade value. In this particular case, doesn’t hurt as much as signing Ollie, but hints to another kind of trouble, the inability to complement our core with above average players.
In lobby campaign for Chris Carter.
Also the fact
he thought GMjr was worth trading for to begin with
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
And Matthews has been given a significant # of abs
to directly influence games.
At the point of the trade, we didn't have that league minimum CF.
He happened to go on waivers at a later date. The fact that he’s still on the roster is the thing that needs to be corrected.
Reyes, Thole, Wright, Beltran, Bay, Davis, Martinez, Tejada...
by Stephen Schmidt on May 14, 2010 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
but ankiel, byrnes and some others were available
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
We still had Jesus Feliciano, who can play average to above average CF.
It’s just as a defensive OF and CF replacement, he can do a better job than GMJ. If we randomly pick someone from AA, (s)he can do a better job as a backup CF.
In lobby campaign for Chris Carter.
But didn't they have Gotay at the time of the Castillo trade?
Plus, the trade then led to his signing, which in a way makes it a bad trade. It was a gateway trade.
yeah but Gotay wasn't exactly anything to write home about
and really his signing itself wasn’t the worst thing in the world, it was pretty bad, but he had a chance to break even and there were no other 2nd base options, and Houston was offering a similar deal. The real failings came from being unwilling to eat the contract later, which for a team with our resources makes zero sense.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
I thought it was bad from the get go
His range was limited from the first month he was here, and the glaring lack of power was always going to be a problem, and he was already 31 or 32. His ’08 season was so bad that one could easily argue that about any other starting secondbasemen in baseball could have made up the 1 game difference gotten them to the playoffs.
yeah but we didn't have the choice of any other starting 2nd basemen in
baseball. I thought it was likely going to be a bad deal but of his numbers trending down and his knee issues, but I really think if they had just been willing to eat the money no one would consider it as bad now as they do.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
Well then, another trade should have been made
I’d have to go back and look at who the available free agent 2b were that year. There had to have been a couple. Didn’t Fontenot wind up as a rule 5 pick that year? Anyone could have claimed him, and he would’ve been an upgrade.
I'm pretty sure he was a rule 5 pick
back in like 05. And I mean what other trade options would you have wanted him to trade for? And what exactly resources was he going to use in a trade?
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
Let's go back to '07 though, too
It was a mistake to expect the same production from Valentin. That class had better 2b available, like Adam Kennedy and DeRosa.
I agree it was a mistake to expect the same production
but I don’t think kennedy is much better. I’m not really sure about DeRosa.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
DeRosa's '07 and '08 season
easily get them to the playoffs in each year imo. Castillo’s OPS in ‘08 was .660. DeRosa was .857. Even factoring defense and Wrigley, that’s no contest.
yeah but derosa was also coming off a season
where he only played 220 innings as 2nd base. I imagine he wasn’t season as much of a second base option at the time.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
I mean I was a big DeRosa fan
and would have loved him on the team, but I really don’t know if he was viewed as a 2nd base option by anyone in the 06 off season.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
He had a lot of experience as SS previously, though
and that’s usually not a tough transition, but I see your point. It’s easier to critique in retrospect.
really?
according to fangraphs he only played more than 100 innings at ss once. He was primarily a outfield/3rd guy.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
He played in 510 minor league games as a SS
he had experience there.
dude he came up in 1998
that’s like nearly 9 years of not playing it regularly.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
510 games!
Plus well over 600 innings at the ML level with the Braves (your fangraphs info is wrong). Please, let’s let it go, it was very reasonable to expect him be able to handle 2b.
He played more than 100 innings there twice
and another time played exactly 100 innings. He also played 250 innings at 2b in one season with the Braves. While errors are of course not a great judge, he did only make 2 errors there. It was pretty obvious he’d be an ok 2b, and his bat was a bonus there in ’07 and 08.
Also the entire way he grades draft picks made absolutely no sense
he basically just went through and gave him a plus for names. Ignoring whether the drafts overall were good or bad. Which is what’s totally skewing his bottom totals.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
For reference
Here’s Tim Marchman’s GM/front office rankings from back in March.
by James Kannengieser on May 14, 2010 1:30 PM EDT reply actions
I didn't link Marchman's post because I necessarily agree with his rankings or methodology
Just as a reference for people to see a list of all GM’s in baseball and a quick summary of their work, from one of the better writers out there.
by James Kannengieser on May 14, 2010 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow
I can’t believe I didn’t read that Marchman post after seeing it float around twitter. I guess I echo some of what he says.
This article is good but misses the point
Omar’s problem isn’t tactical. It’s strategic: he has no strategy.
Each of the trades is justifiable, as you noted, and there’s near perfect information in MLB, so you expect teams to make justifiable trades. The free agent signings, well, Omar has a tendency to give too many years for too many dollars, which I do not mean to understate, but with the exception of Alex Cora, he does not go out and intentionally sign bad players. And I agree with the other commentators who say to blame the Wilpons for the draft pick cheapness.
The problem is that Omar isn’t acting in a vacuum. He needs to bring some sort of cohesive plan to the table and execute on that. He doesn’t. He instead is very day-by-day, hoping each move, in and of itself, will incrementally bring the team to the playoffs. Not going to happen.
But even worse: His strategy — or lack thereof — means that he has to win almost every trade and signing. “Justifiable” trades are OK when you’re executing on a real strategy, but when your strategy is to keep piling on incremental improvements, each trade has to actually be an incremental improvement. So you add up all these neutral moves and you come out negative.
Conclusion: Omar Minaya is a below average GM.
by Dan Lewis on May 14, 2010 1:31 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
This.
Unless “throwing crap at the wall and seeing what sticks” is an organizational strategy.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on May 14, 2010 1:43 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
It kind of is.
Omar’s strengths are scouting and talent evaluation. The organization’s strengths are location and money. So it makes sense to let Omar single out players he wants and then go and get them.
I think Omar is well above average in these two strengths, honestly, but even 30 years ago, one needed to be an order of magnitude better in order to succeed. Now, with statistical information increasingly improving, I don’t know that you can be that good. So the Mets fail.
Hot Foot also fails to address media/public relations
Tough to find any GM or front office worse than the Mets in that area. Not as crucial as roster construction but still needs to be considered.
by James Kannengieser on May 14, 2010 1:33 PM EDT reply actions
This isn't really Omar's fault
Except for the Adam Rubin thing, where in retrospect — watch the presser again, I did, and it honestly wasn’t so bad — he’s been fine. The issues are institutional. Baseball teams in general are passive when it comes to the press, which is risky in New York, and the Mets are just plain bad at it.
What about the Beltran surgery fiasco?
No blame for Omar there?
by James Kannengieser on May 14, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
can we really blame him?
It seems more like Jeff Wilpon is just insane.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
by Gina on May 14, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well Omar certainly isn't blameless there
Throwing it all on Jeff Wilpon isn’t fair. He’s the GD General Manager, even if it might be a puppet regime of sorts. That was a fiasco that he has to take at least some blame for.
by James Kannengieser on May 14, 2010 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Well I mean the fact the entire fiasco seemed to stem entirely from Jeff
from what I gathered Boras and Beltran cleared things with the front office got comp papers filed had the surgery, and then Jeff found out and blew a gasket.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
Yeah, it seemed like Omar was as blindsided as anyone by Jeff's crazy in that
he just didn’t tell the press.
I mean I'm not saying he deserves no blame
just that I feel like we should judge him from the stand point of would the overall structure of the front office prevented from most gms from failing any less?
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
How about telling everyone that his two star players, David Wright and Jose Reyes, don't have an edge to them?
No blame for Omar there either?
by James Kannengieser on May 14, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Fine
he gets blame there. But we’re picking nits. Everyone has a stupid soundbite or 10, especially when NYC press is beating you down. If he were a good GM otherwise, it’d be endearing, kind of like how Jerry’s stupid “gangsta” comment was at the time.
So do you think Omar is above average, average, or below average in this department?
I just don’t see how he’s anything but below average here.
by James Kannengieser on May 14, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Below
Keeping Jerry just keeps subtracting points from his grade. Everyday we have Jerry as our “manager” another point drops Minaya deeper into the abyss.
by SFloridaMetsFan on May 14, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
None of the above
The Mets are a team are way, way below average. Omar may actually be very good at it, and we just can’t tell. Or he may be very bad at it, making it worse. Or it all could be a function of the fact that the he’s a below average GM otherwise, not the other way around.
But the team is a by-product of its GM
a poorly constructed team happenes because a poor GM doesnt know what hes doing.
by SFloridaMetsFan on May 14, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Ok i agree he sucks there.
He also doesnt help himself there by putting himself in situations where he is on the defensive. Or he just talks out of his rear. He rarely has an interview, that I’ve read or heard, where I dont go “woooooowwwwwwwwww” and facepalm"
by SFloridaMetsFan on May 14, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Are we sure it's entirely a by product of our gm at this point?
Since we really have no idea how much power he has or what kind of spending/payroll affecting moves he’s allowed to make, but we do know he’s clearly a lame duck gm so obviously his job security is going to take premium over the best long-term interest of the team at this point.
I mean does anyone really think Omar was so concerned with saving 3 million dollar of someone else’s dollars to trade Wagner? Do we really think a gm on the hot seat was so in love with Perez and Maine he wouldn’t pay for any other arms?
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
I think he is a lame duck GM now.
Last year and years before,no. But this year after his gaffes with the media and his mismanagement of the roster I think he has been put on a short leash. And the Jeffy is in charge now.
by SFloridaMetsFan on May 14, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Lame Duck = Myth
Omar is under contract and the Mets/Wilpons are afraid of sunk costs as if they were toxic waste. I don’t know why we assume Omar is a lame duck.
Lame duck
as in no power to do anything on his own. So figure head GM would be more appropriate?
by SFloridaMetsFan on May 14, 2010 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah that's what's weird
most reports seem to say he’s been stripped of a lot of power, yet they also seem to point too him not being fired anytime soon. The Wilpons are ridiculous they don’t seem to want him payroll numbers in the near future, but they also won’t fire him and hire someone they trust. It seems instead they want to coast somewhat through his new deal and hope he can make enough small moves that won’t have a big payroll effect to keep the team from falling apart and the stadium filled until the money owed is tolerable for them to eat.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
They wont eat his contract
Its really that simple unfortunately. Its why we still have Slappy and Ollie.
by SFloridaMetsFan on May 14, 2010 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah but it seems to me
with the apparently massive declines in attendance, they’re losing way more money by not doing anything than they would by just eating the contract.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
So what you're saying is
A GM shouldn’t be graded on his media/PR relations? You’ve lost me. That makes no sense.
by James Kannengieser on May 14, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I lobby
for AA to take over the Mets!
by SFloridaMetsFan on May 14, 2010 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm saying:
When an organization is really, really bad at PR, it’s really not fair to assume that any individual is independently bad at PR.
Well when its only Omar
Thats constantly being paraded out to the media to look stupid, how can you not blame that one person and call him a lame duck? He was handed rope to hang himself with. And doing quite a good job.
by SFloridaMetsFan on May 14, 2010 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
He definitely should be,
but you also have to take into account the Mets have been a PR circus for a while now. From your comment above, I took it as if you’re blaming only Omar for the Beltran saga when the organization as a whole deserves the blame for that.
There may be sunny days ahead.
yeah I think at some point you have to separate the gm from the
organization as a whole. Yeah Omar may be awful, but it seems like whether he was here or it was someone else they’d be equally as awful. it seems more like an organizational failing as a whole magnifying his own PR issues.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
Then my comment was misconstrued, the organization is dysfunctional
But Omar is the General Manager. I think it’s silly to completely absolve him of blame just because the organization is a PR disaster.
by James Kannengieser on May 14, 2010 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
No one is completely absolving him I dont think.
Its just he is out there the most so he gets the most heat.
by SFloridaMetsFan on May 14, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Seems like Gina and some others above are absolving him, I dunno
by James Kannengieser on May 14, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Me either
all im saying is all Omar is now is a puppet. He gets trotted out to the media and makes a fool of himself. Its like the Wilpons just sit and laugh at how bad he gets blasted.
Almost like thats how he earns his paychecks.
by SFloridaMetsFan on May 14, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not really absolving him
just when it comes to judging a gm I think you have to look within the confines of the organization, like I can’t really blame Wade for not selling high on some guys if the owners refuse to accept rebuild mode, and while I think Omar is a PR disaster I think the organization as a whole is a PR disaster which magnifies his issues. In organizations with more competent PR management I imagine we’d barely notice Omar, or most of his craziness would just add up to some funny memes nothing really disastrous.
But as far as the Beltran thing my point was more it seemed like the entire media mess stemmed almost exclusively from Jeff being po’d about not being told or something and trotting out Rico to throw one of his best players under the bus for reasons unknown to anyone. If neither Omar or Rico really didn’t know about the surgery despite workers comps papers being filed and Boras and Beltran seemingly doing everything that was required of them I really don’t even know what to think about the structure of the organization.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
Except Omar knew about the surgery.
He spoke with Betran and said get well soon. Good luck.
by SFloridaMetsFan on May 14, 2010 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
correct
wich means either he is at fault for not telling Jeff or at fault for not telling Carlos, you may want to run this by the owner.
Or, it means he was under the impression that a GM has enough authority to sign off on a necessary procedure
I would not be at all surprised if he, like the rest of us, is eternally being surprised by the depth of Jeff’s stupid.
depends.
If he were clearly doing the main part of his job well, I think we’d all cut him a lot more slack for his part of the media nightmare. Why I’m not inclined to do that, at least, is that the inarticulate blundering foot-in-mouth stuff seems like a symptom of his inability to do the job. I don’t ultimately care if the GM is bad at press conferences if he’s good at running the team — but when he’s bad at press conferences in a way that indicates how bad he is at running the team, it’s a problem.
by anonymous on May 14, 2010 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm not really absolving him though,
he deserves a ton of criticism for his PR foolishness(you were right on with the “edge” comment- that isn’t defensible in any way) but with the Beltran situation, I’ll cut him a tiny bit of slack on that.
There may be sunny days ahead.
Why though?
All parties screwed that up. Beltran included.
by SFloridaMetsFan on May 14, 2010 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I put that more on Jeff Wilpon.
There should never be a point where you publicly attack your own player, let alone your best one, in public like that. What they should’ve done was keep that in-house as best they could and move on accordingly. However, I won’t blame Carlos for doing what’s best for his health.
There may be sunny days ahead.
To be fair
Frenchy has been closer to average than replacement level since we got him (barely).
You don't cheer for the Mets. You drink for the Mets.
All in all, I'd say Omar is a slightly below average GM, all things considered.
There are, as demonstrated, worse GMs. Of the 30 GMs out there, I’d say maybe Omar is somewhere between 20 and 25- 23 is a nice, even medium.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on May 14, 2010 1:40 PM EDT reply actions
really?
Can you list who you’re putting below him? For me (like people were saying above) he falls around 25-26.
Colletti for one.
Sabean isnt that great either. The Royals GM
by SFloridaMetsFan on May 14, 2010 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Would you put Dombrowski
below Omar?
by SFloridaMetsFan on May 14, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
no effing way
He’s clearly an average, or I’d argue somewhat better, GM. You think Omar could go from a 119-loss team to the World Series in three years?
I think Amaro you could argue it's too early to judge
but to me at the very best Hendry’s equal, I think he might actual be worse.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
I was hesitant to list Amaro,
simply because it would be an overreaction to Howard’s deal but going forward, they might be in some trouble.
There may be sunny days ahead.
yeah Howards deal was the major one
but they had way bigger problems before that. howards deal just took their problems and raised them to the 10th power.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
And really I didn't think there was plan was that bad until that deal
It seemed like they intended to go all in the next 2-3 years and worry about everything else after that, but then why give that ridiculous contract to the guy that doesn’t start until after that 2-3 year window.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
Wow
They’ve already committed $134MM to 2011, down from $138 this year. Moyer and Werth are free agents and Kendrick is Arb1.
Speaking of Werth
Anyone think the Mets should make a push for him??Would his numbers translate well to Citi?
by SFloridaMetsFan on May 14, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Same could be said for the Mets
If the Mets pick up Reyes’ option and do not release any arb-eligible players, their 2011 payroll is already about $130 million.
by englishgrey on May 14, 2010 2:54 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Well Frenchy is gone.
Possibly Maine. Not sure what other contracts expire after the season though.
by SFloridaMetsFan on May 14, 2010 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah but we can afford an 130 million dollar payroll
our payroll, at least in theory, should be about 30 million away from being maxed out at 130 million. They’re payroll is passed maxed out.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
But do you really think the Wilpons
want that extra payroll?? They are already in cost cutting mode.
by SFloridaMetsFan on May 14, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah but there's a difference between want
and can. The Wilpons may not want it now but that seems to be more because of the financial repercussions of the Madoff thing, eventually they’ll be able to support the large payroll, and if they don’t want fans to burn down citi they’ll have too. Philly just plain won’t be able to unless they’re in the world series every year.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
I agree whole heartedly with you.
The Mets will be in great shape in a year or two if they had someone with knowledge of being a complete GM and stay away from the team except to sign paychecks.
I’m not sure if the Madoff thing hurt them that bad, since thy are inquiring about the Islanders and building a hockey stadium next to Citi.
by SFloridaMetsFan on May 14, 2010 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Supposedly they made 43 million off of it
but are expected to have to give all it back to the investors who lost money.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
It's okay because they'll cut Ollie and Luis
and defer their 2011 salaries in annual payments until 2112.
If we're going to subtract from Omar,
major points have to come off for his handling of Mejia. We’ve beaten this topic to death, but Omar should’ve never let Jerry Manuel dictate what to do with Mejia.
There may be sunny days ahead.
A bit off topic but
Do you think the team has “quit” on Jerry like they “quit” on Willie?
by SFloridaMetsFan on May 14, 2010 1:54 PM EDT reply actions
No I just think they have some guys who cannot hit well
that have been given lots of at bats, as well as a lot of guys with high K rates, which is going to put you through some dry spells. Combine that with starters who don’t go deep into games and a bullpen that’s being overused, and is walking way too many guys.
I don't really even know what this means
You seriously think the players aren’t trying to win anymore?
quite the opposite
I think they are playing quite hard and perhaps trying to do too much as shown by some of Reyes baserunning gaffes and Wright and Frenchy swinging for the fences every time. As bad as Jerry is as a tactician, I do think he has the loyalty of his players. I am not sure Willie ever had that.
Thats not what i meant.
I should have added more to my post. I should have said “Does anyone think they are sick of Jerry and dont buy into his actions and words anymore?”
by SFloridaMetsFan on May 14, 2010 2:52 PM EDT reply actions
well, I hope so
If the players aren’t sick of Jerry, they’re not paying much attention to what happens on the field every day.
I don't think they are
see my post above. Players are players, they don’t usually get into the nunaces of the team the way a manager does.
At some point it becomes nitpicking
Whether or not Omar is the 22nd best GM or the 25th best GM in baseball, the fact of the matter is he’s not very good. If you were picking someone to run your organization, Omar MInaya would be very far down the list. He has been incompetent at filling out the back-end of the roster, overpays practically everyone he has signs (with a few exceptions), and just has no game plan. Who cares if he’s better than Brian Sabean or John Hendrey? They all suck and they’re all guys who should not be in charge of major league baseball franchises.
He's not a horrible GM
but he isn’t very good, and we can do better
There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ
The 2010 Mets- Hey, we may suck, but what did you expect?
I think the whole organization sucks
From Wilpon thinking he should be calling the shots and then making Omar go to them for every little thing this off season, to Jerry having Reyes bunt, to the media relations, it’s just so laughable at this point. I really don’t know any organization that is this dumb, except for maybe the Phillies, and they’re not as bad at media relations as we are, and I think it’s plain dumb luck that they’ve managed to win the division in 2007 and 2008, and trading away Cliff Lee to replace him with Halladay was probably not a great move imho.
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
I don't think it's dumb luck at all
the phillies really weren’t “dumb” until amaro took over. Before they had one of the best scouting departments and a pretty smart gm, the problem was once Amaro got the job their top scout left and it seems like their scouting has sort of fallen apart.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
ed wade was a smart GM?
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on May 14, 2010 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Gillick
Nothing can get by him; especially in a small room: Mike Francessa
by GenJackRipper on May 14, 2010 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I actually voted yes
..but this was out of a lack of respect for the “average GM” , not out of any particular respect for Omar. You can be above average & still not very successful
Omar Minaya's Above-Average Plan
What the 8 starting position players and 5 starting pitchers they had before the 2010 off season looked like:
C – Omir Santos
1B – Daniel Murphy
2B – Luis Castillo
3B – David Wright
SS – Jose Reyes
LF – Angel Pagan
CF – Carlos Beltran
RF – Jeff Francoeur
SP – Johan Santana
SP – Mike Pelfrey
SP – John Maine
SP – Oliver Perez
SP – Jonathon Niese
What the roster would’ve looked like on opening day without injuries:
C – Rod Barajas
1B – Daniel Murphy
2B – Luis Castillo
3B – David Wright
SS – Jose Reyes
LF – Jason Bay
CF – Carlos Beltran
RF – Jeff Francoeur
SP – Johan Santana
SP – Mike Pelfrey
SP – John Maine
SP – Oliver Perez
SP – Jonathon Niese
So, basically, Omar Minaya looked at his roster and said, “I’m fine with a right fielder with a career .311 on base average and a 38-year-old 2nd baseman that can’t hit or field and a first baseman that hasn’t hit enough to warrant a bench job and a rotation that might not produce an above-replacement-level starter beyond Johan. That’s all good. My biggest issue is clearly left field, because Angel Pagan was my third most valuable player last year so I can’t have him starting. So I’ll spend nearly all my budget on a replacement for him, swap Santos for another replacement level catcher, trade for Gary Matthews Jr., re sign Alex Cora, and sign a few relievers—voila. What do you guys think, are we going to win or are we going to win?”
Why are we debating this? He’s a moron.
Beyond the Box Score / Capitol Avenue Club / shwitter: @CapitolAvenue
A few things
First off, Castillo had a .387 OBP last year, so um, the idea that he can’t hit is just wrong
Second, the signing of Bay should not have prevented us from signing someone like Pineiro, We could’ve afforded both
Third, Barajas had a 1.5 WAR last year, not exactly replacement level
There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ
The 2010 Mets- Hey, we may suck, but what did you expect?
EDIT: Didn't check Fangraphs updated WAR for Barajas, it's 0.8 last year
but considering his production, and the fact he only cost $1 million, it’s not something to really gripe about
There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ
The 2010 Mets- Hey, we may suck, but what did you expect?
Agreed--
Barajas/Blanco is fine for catchers. But considering how much the team played Omir Santos, you just can’t give credit to Omar for this. It’s obvious that he is just guessing. I mean, he almost gave Benjie Molina like 5 times what Barajas got.
As for Castillo, last year was a career year and an aberration. I’m not complaining but second basemen who can’t field or hit any home runs or extra-base hits barely ever just aren’t feasible as starters in today’s game.
by JohnPeterson on May 14, 2010 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
True,
but the Mets were never going to release him, no matter how much sense it made, and you could do much worse at the position. Signing Felipe Lopez would’ve made a lot of sense, but Cora’s “grission” was just too much to give up on..
The biggest debacle of the offseason was not signing a SP. Everything else has at least a somewhat plausible explanation.
There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ
The 2010 Mets- Hey, we may suck, but what did you expect?
Castillo has little chance of repeating that obp though
it was driven by a crazy ld spike.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
And other things
rotation that might not produce an above-replacement-level starter beyond Johan.
If you had said “above-average-starter” it would be another thing, but even then Pelf and maybe Niese could be average. It doesn’t mean there isn’t room for improvement, but they aren’t really below replacement.
So I’ll spend nearly all my budget on a replacement for him
Bay should not replacing Pagan. Pagan should be competing against Francoeur at RF IF Beltran was healthy, and we can’t really disregard the injuries, we knew Beltran wouldn’t be ready for opening day.
sign a few relievers
The pen signings were not that bad. He took a shot at some upside arms. Calero and Escobar didn’t work as planed and Igarashi got hurt. Tak2 is actually doing well.
We aren’t defending Omar here, but at least he should be criticized for the right reasons.
In lobby campaign for Chris Carter.
Agreed
I’m certainly not an Omar-apologist, but credit should be given when credit is due.
Plus, it’s important to remember that fans were clamoring for another big bat. There were limited choices and Bay was one of the best possible options.
Signing Bay was not a mistake. The fact that Bay hasn’t performed well – yet – is not Omar’s fault.
Same goes for K-Rod. Whenever I got bagels with Omar, I told him to fix the bullpen. He went out and signed the all-time saves leader. Were there concerns about K-Rod at the time? Absolutely. But what other choices did he have? And were those choices legitimately better?
It's not that choices were legitimately better
it’s that K-rod wasn’t that great of a choice and a smarter gm would have ignore the clamoring and 1. realized the market was about to collapse and 2. no closer is worth that many resources. Definitely not 17 million. It’s not like no one saw the market collapse coming there were plenty of warning signs.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
Well,
By choices I was including the status quo, which was not a viable option at the time. Also, I think K-Rod’s deal is 3 years/37 mil, no? If I remember correctly, at the time, he was hoping to get 5 years/75 mil, or something ridiculous like that.
Of all the options Omar had, including doing nothing, he made the right choice.
Omar has made some pretty poor decisions, but he also deserves a good amount of credit. I voted no, but only because Castillo and Perez weigh so heavily in the negative (and one didn’t require foresight to see these were horrendous decisions). Had Omar not signed Castillo and Perez, I’d dare say he’d be considered above average. Has he made mistakes? Sure, but every GM in the history of baseball has.
It's 3/37
with a 17 million dollar 4th year vesting option. And I’m sorry I don’t even think the Perez and Castillo deal are the worst things he’s done, there’s no way he comes in above average excluding them.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
How about two new polls?
What’s the worst thing Omar’s done?
and
What’s the best thing Omar’s done?
I think that's pretty simple
Best: Johan Santana trade
Worst: Perez extension
There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ
The 2010 Mets- Hey, we may suck, but what did you expect?
I'd disagree
I think trading 7 players for Putz and not even giving him a proper physical and arguably the contract to K-rod are worse. The thing is Omar hasn’t made that many big insanely big moves. He’s just made a massive amount of small horrible ones.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
There is no reasonable way you could say KRod is worse
Perez is one of the worst pitchers in baseball. No other team had even the slightest hint of interest
K-Rod is still a decent reliever, and I’m positive the Cardinals and Indians showed some form of interest in him during that offseason.
Putz you may have an argument with, but I don’t think anything compares to completely overpaying a guy no one else had any interest in at all.
There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ
The 2010 Mets- Hey, we may suck, but what did you expect?
But it's not true no one else had interest
I’m pretty sure the Dodgers were willing to offer 10 million per and “settled” for Wolf when they “lost” out.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
Pedro and Beltran
Were very significant signings that turned the team around.
The Putz fiasco was pretty shameful, but I’ve got to go with Perez as being the worst. He’s had more of a negative impact on the team.
Actions not involving the players should also be in the poll, such as Rubin, Bernazard and the Willie Randolph firing.
And not getting what he was hoping for isn't something to laud Omar for
when the market totally collapsed. He wasn’t going to get that from anyone, he wasn’t going to get what we gave him from anyone. I don’t think anyone else ever even showed interest.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
Hyperbole on Castillo. He’s also 34, not 38. But still the point is there were several places the Mets stood to gain a lot by replacing the nearly useless regulars with merely average players. And he did not.
Beyond the Box Score / Capitol Avenue Club / shwitter: @CapitolAvenue
On the plus side, he only commited two multi year contracts.
In the situation the Mets were in, it might be a good idea to do just that and quietly get out from under some of these contracts.
Reyes, Thole, Wright, Beltran, Bay, Davis, Martinez, Tejada...
by Stephen Schmidt on May 14, 2010 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah but that's kind of the problem with the Bay deal
we would have been done with all the awful contracts by 2013, now we’re stuck with Bays for 2 years past that.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
You mean 2011
There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ
The 2010 Mets- Hey, we may suck, but what did you expect?
though we'll have castillo and perez next year too
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
Well said.
He is just terrible at seeing where the team can be improved at favorable cost, and doing it.
Signing Luis Castillo in the first place. Then not replacing him for cheap when it could have been done very cheaply. Imagine a real second baseman starting and Castillo off the bench instead of the thoroughly mediocre Alex Cora and his vesting option.
It’s just a remarkable stupid approach to roster construction and blatant lack of understanding for concepts like sunk cost or the opportunity cost of carrying several mediocrities on a limited roster.
I don’t care who is worse. Omar Minaya is a terrible GM and the organization should be embarrassed of him. Instead, they are happy because the team won games in 06-08.
by JohnPeterson on May 14, 2010 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
minaya is an embarrassment
the fact that the wilpons are trusting him with their money during contract negotiations is also laughable. what a bunch of buffooons.
a real collection of assholes.
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.
Absolutely agree
If only the Wilpins would open their eyes a bit. Omar has cost this team the playoffs with his crappy roster management and horrible contracts. The team right now is below average on the back end of the rotation, at second base,right field and catcher, and in the bullpen. Omar Minaya built a playoff team only one year here. And that’s a failure for a team with hopes of winning
by Blame-everyone-else on May 14, 2010 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Damn Wilpins...
Reyes, Thole, Wright, Beltran, Bay, Davis, Martinez, Tejada...
by Stephen Schmidt on May 14, 2010 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions
the o takes up too much ink
soon they’ll officially change it to wilpins to save money
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
Apology
I misquoted Hotfoot when I said that he said that he was an above-average GM. He said, in fact, that his hypothesis was that Omar was “not below-average.”
The bottom line with Minaya: truthiness
Omar knew in his gut that the problem with the 2007 Mets was that they needed an ace starter.
Omar knew in his gut that the problem with the 2008 Mets was that they needed a shutdown bullpen to turn it into a 7-inning game.
Then he knew in his gut that the problem with the 2009 Mets was that they couldn’t hit home runs and clear the bases.
Omar’s thinking reminds me of when I played SimCity as a kid. I was never any good at balancing my city’s budget, because what I really was doing when I was playing the game was trying to make a city that seemed nice to live in and had at least one of everything and felt right. I wasn’t really interested in trying to wring value out of every move I made, and so I always wound up running out of money and reaching for the Natural Disasters menu.
Omar may know on some level that a decent starting pitcher like Randy Wolf is more valuable than a closer, or that Jeff Francoeur’s low OBA is harmful, but he doesn’t know it in his gut, and that’s the part of him that makes, if not every decision, then at least the overall strategy for the organization.
by psiogen on May 14, 2010 7:28 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
This
He can’t quantify his talent evaluation into marginal wins; he can’t translate marginal wins into dollar value to get the most marginal wins at the lowest cost, and he has no idea of how to establish a strategy to acquire the most marginal wins within a specified time frame to produce the best team possible in the long run. If you told him that was his job, he would look at you like you were crazy.
We should not be debating this. The man is a fool of a GM. There are some who are worse: (Colletti, Sabean, Ed Wade, arguably Amaro, and Drayton Moore) and some who are arguably as bad (Hendry—that’s all I can think of) but they’re all going to be gone within two years. Omar has a legit shot at being the Isaiah Thomas of baseball in two years time, hopefully generating similar pushback from the league.
The great thing about the internet is that more people are aware of this than otherwise would have been the case. Think of how much pressure Dave Checketts and the Knick front office would have felt if the web had been in full swing in the early ’90s.
Nothing can get by him; especially in a small room: Mike Francessa
by GenJackRipper on May 14, 2010 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Sabean, Colleti, Moore, and Wade will be gone within two years?
based on what? Sabeans been a mad man for 10 years.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
I'd bet that's true.
But give it five years.
by JohnPeterson on May 15, 2010 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
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