Credit Where Credit Isn't Due
Amidst all of the hoopla of the 'Reyes batting 3rd' experiment, the 9-1 homestand & the roller coaster series in Philly, Jason Bay started hitting. At the start of the aforementioned homestand, Bay was sporting a .217 AVG and a punchless .603 OPS. But since then he'd gone 13 for his last 40 (including 7 extra base hits) and now at the conclusion of the Phillies series, Bay stands at a much improved .270 AVG with a robust .817 OPS.
But here's the problem: Jerry Manuel is getting much of the credit for this offensive outburst.
To be more specific, Manuel is getting recognition for Bay's resurgence at the dish as a direct result of pushing Jose back to the 3rd spot in the order. And we all know the supposed logic here: Reyes' mere presence on first figures to make pitchers more wary of throwing off-speed stuff (making it easier for him to steal second) thus theoretically giving Bay more fastballs to hit. And of course, If(Bay sees more fastballs) Then(Bay gets more hits). Simple yet unfallible old-school baseball logic.
So let's see here...Slumping Bay + 3) Reyes = Hitting Bay. It worked! Seemingly everything is sunshine, lollipops and rainbows for Jerry. His plan came to fruition, his If Statement worked and emo glasses are making a comeback among the 50-65yr old baseball manager demographic. But wait a minute, did I hear somebody say 'Let's check out the ab's to see what actually happened"? Don't mind if I do.
Jose on first = fb
Let's first get into the Pitch F/X and test the "Jose on first = more fastballs" theory. First thing we've got to do is divide up Bay's ab's that started with Jose on base from those when he wasn't. OK, Bay had 42 ab's with Jose on base, 101 ab's without. Next step: Calculate the percentage of fastballs Bay saw in either case. And hey what do you know, while the sample size is small, 52% of the pitches that Jason Bay saw in his Jose-less ab's were fastballs while he saw 71% fastballs in the ab's with Jose on base. See Jerry, dreams can come true, even if they are aided by small samples. But don't go too nuts, we've still got that all important If Statement to ponder.
if fastballs, then hits...right?
Here is the crux of this little evaluation: How did Bay actually fare in those ab's with Jose on base? We now know that he saw slightly more fastballs, so obviously that must mean he feasted upon them, breaking his slump as a result. Maybe not; the first issue is that since Reyes began batting 3rd, he's only been on base for a Bay at-bat 9 times, compared to 21 where he was on the bench watching. But hey, maybe Bay crushed in those 9 ab's. Nope; despite seeing a few more fastballs, Bay batted just .222 with Jose on base. In fact, Bay broke his slump in those 21 Jose-less ab's, batting .429 in that time. Ooh sorry Jerry, so close.
He did it all by himself
So believe it or not, Bay started hitting not because of a few more fastballs (the same fastballs Bay said he was missing during his slump), nor because of Jose's telekinetic mastery of pitcher's minds when he's on base. Bay broke out simply because he's just a good hitter. Didn't really need any help. Sorry Jerry, nice try though.
Oh and P.S. - Reyes is now mired in a 1-13 slump and has dropped 30 batting points with only 2 RBIs since moving into the 3 hole...but hey, we got Bay a couple more fastballs right?
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Oh, so the Mets lose a couple games and now it's Jerry's fault?
j/k. Nice write-up. I always appreciate seeing things like this looked into for the actual, you know, facts.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on May 3, 2010 12:27 PM EDT reply actions
Only thing though
media types giving Jerry too much credit is NOT the same thing as Jerry taking credit. This piece is written as if Jerry were claiming credit.
Jerry has enough to account for without making up stuff that someone else did and then blaming him for it.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
I don't think this post is harping too hard about Jerry taking the credit.
But yeah, you’re right. It seems like in interviews, whenever Jerry is asked how batting Reyes third is working, he kind of just says Reyes is still trying to get himself rolling. I’ve never heard him say that batting Reyes third has been a success or led to Bay breaking his slump.
Not like Jose has been hitting
so how did Jose help Bay? Just played some bad teams and then got smacked. Should have played Pagan and Davis last night.. Not that Johan’s night would have been different but there no reason for GMJ or Tatis to start in a game of such divisional importance.
Jose's flyball rate
Does anyone have the figures on that? He must be up near the league leaders in infield/short outfield pop ups. He’s lunging at everything.
Dont have the rates.
But if you want him swing, he actually thinks he’s a #3 hitter now, not a #1 hitting in the #3 hole like he should be. So instead of staying within his abilities, he is going for the long ball anfd looking horrible doing it. Which if my memory serves me correctly, was the whole reason to NOT put him third.
by SFloridaMetsFan on May 3, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
he doesn't look comfortable at the plate this yr yet. His timing is still off
regardless of where he hits
His infield flyball rate is 19.4%
according to Fangraphs, good enough for top 15 in the majors. Interestingly, Francoeur is even higher at 20%. Yeah, that has to be a timing thing. When you lunge at pitches, and chase pitches up out of the strike zone it seems like you’d get underneath the ball a good deal.
And why doesn't he look comfortable?
Because he is trying to be something he is not, He is NOT a power hitter. His power is gap power with 10-15 homerums a year MAYBE. Now he this he is Pujols in the 3 hole and he is lunging at pitches he should not swing at or should be waiting on to drive. It’s not his timing as much as it is Jose trying to be Pujols when he should be Jose.
by SFloridaMetsFan on May 3, 2010 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Or,
because he hasn’t played baseball in a year, and had no spring training. You have absolutely no clue what Jose’s mindset is at the plate.
"Relax, all right? Don't try to strike everybody out. Strikeouts are boring; besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls. It's more democratic."
- CRASH DAVIS
by nrmax88 on May 3, 2010 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
you don't know that.
there is no evidence to that assertion whatsoever.
by pricedoutoftheciti on May 3, 2010 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
i don't know if he thinks he's pujols
but there’s certainly evidence of him lunging at terrible pitches and getting under balls he should be trying to drive. But I feel like Jose goes through a period like that every year where he tries to hit a homer every at bat.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
the lunging is correct
sorry should have been more clear. we can visibly see the lunging. the assertions that he has changed his mindset are slightly absurd. nobody knows what jose is thinking but jose.
by pricedoutoftheciti on May 3, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
We know what he's thinking:
“How can I use my big smile and enthusiastic celebrations to ruin the Mets today?”
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on May 3, 2010 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
He's thinking about his music career, dance moves and the next Spanish class.
In lobby campaign for Chris Carter.
I for one miss Professor Reyes
He taught me how to say french fries, which is one area where my public education Spanish for six years failed me.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on May 3, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Although, if Bay believed he was going to start hitting
BECAUSE of Jose batting 3rd (regardless of Bay not performing as well when Jose was on base) then Jerry may deserve a bit of credit for getting Bay out of a possible mental funk that could have caused his slump. The mind is a powerful thing after all.
Or you’re just right and it was all coincidental. Who can say for sure?
Based on Bay's past history
I would lean toward coincidental. After watching him with the Red Sox for a couple of years, I can say with a pretty high degree of certainty that he’s a very streaky hitter, and I think this was just him going from a cold streak to a hot streak. Luckily his hot streaks tend to be longer.
Perhaps today is a good day to die.
-Klingon proverb
by Thomas Wachtel on May 3, 2010 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
So wait a second here.
If Jerry gets credit for Bay’s turnaround, shouldn’t he get credit for Frenchy’s Grisson, too? heh.
man. tough crowd.
But I guess there’s no room for jokes since it seems like the joke is on us Mets fans.
14-11 sounds better than 4-15 or something, though.
The Reds will(hopefully) cure what ails us and we can get back on track. AND I NEVER WANT TO SEE GMJ ON THE FIELD AGAIN!!! Tatis…I only want to see him as a Pinch-hitter and that’s it.
We need to get GMJ more at bats
so that he can work his way through this slump. Also, we need to walk halfway across the Verrazano, do a 90 degree turn, and jump off.
by tmu on May 3, 2010 1:50 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Jerry, Jerry, Jerry......
Instead of trying to get too cute by putting jose in the 3 slot, you shouldve just left in the 1 hole. But then again, this is the same guy who just let Santana melt down last night when it was obvious he didnt have it. But hey, Omar sticks to his guys!
or why not
just hit jose 2nd and bay 3rd, that way our best hitter isn’t hitting 5th and maybe frenchy can break into the top 5 once in a while.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
Yeah it's gonna be great
when Wright gets stranded in the on deck circle or he doesn’t get that 4th or 5th at bat in a close game because he’s batting 5th. They are denying their best hitter of a lot of plate appearances in order to have Jose bat 3rd. Hope it’s worth it. Meanwhile Castillo is on his way to a crappy year, but can’t be moved from the 2 hole.
It does seem rather obvious, right?
Batting David Wright in the bottom half of the order is insane and possibly a misdemeanor.
by TheBigStapler on May 3, 2010 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not buying the blame for Santana's bad start last night.
If it’s the 4th inning, and Santana can get out of the inning by getting the pitcher, you’re not about to yank him. There wasn’t much time between the walk to Moyer and the homers to warm somebody up. The melt down happened pretty quick.
just a thought
(i’m not saying this is the case, i agree that for the most part bay just found his swing own his own because he’s an established quality hitter)
if he’s seeing more fastballs in general, partially because of reyes, that might help his timing, even if he is making outs.
a very good thought, my friend.
It’s no coincidence that because Reyes is batting in front of Wright that David is seeing better pitches for him to it.
So you mean
this might be a bit over the top?
By juggling his batting order Friday night, Mets Manager Jerry Manuel added energy that helped forge a 5-2 victory over the Atlanta Braves and boost his team’s momentum. . .
Manuel, thought to be in danger of losing his job, might merit some credit. He moved Jose Reyes out of the leadoff spot for the first time in almost five years.
"One of them old, weird Jerry Manuel moves," Manuel said with a chuckle before the game when asked about shifting Reyes to the third spot in the order.
Reyes responded with a double and a triple and a run scored and seemed to energize the hitters behind him, something Manuel said he hoped would happen.
Suggestion
Pump Gary Matthews Juicer full of steroids so he a) starts producing b) Fails a Drug Test or c) gets injured
What Would Matt Szczur Do?
by Hoyadestroya85 on May 3, 2010 2:37 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
this is a wonderful suggestion
It’s a win win!
Does the team still have Kirk Radomski's phone number?
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on May 3, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
correction
win win win
What Would Matt Szczur Do?
by Hoyadestroya85 on May 3, 2010 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Not that Jerry is a good manager or anything, BUT
It’s the nature of the job to get too much credit when things are going well and too much blame when things are going poorly.
Imo, the Mets turnaround can be chalked up to the team finally getting a bit of luck (and replacing Cora, Pagan, and Jacobs with Reyes, Pagan, and Davis doesn’t hurt either.) Thi lineup may not be gangbusters but they’re much better than they showed early in the season. The confluence of the lineup waking up and some nice pitching performances = 8 game win streak.
"Seriously, Lana, call Kenny Loggins ‘cause you’re in the danger zone."
dont forget some really
bad play by our opponents.
the braves looked like a bad AAA team last week. They were so bad, Bobby Cox didnt even bother getting himself thrown out.
The Mets: Perfect for explaining away success and magnifying failure.
In more ways than one.
by DogDaysofSummer on May 3, 2010 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I remember when Jose first moved to #3
Ron, Gary, Keith and Kiner were talking about the idea of getting more fastballs for Bay.
They basically laughed at the idea. Ron said there was no way he would have done that if Ricky Henderson was on base.
why our the most informed people in the organization
in the booth and not the front office? =/
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
by Gina on May 3, 2010 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
yeah, thanks for the numbers
I knew he didnt get many AB with Reyes on 1st. Seems a lot of his hits are with no one on base, that is why his RBIs are still low. but I will take it because it is better than the 1st 15 games.
Great post
by the way, I noticed you now have the First Name Last Name username, have you joined the writing staff?
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
well
let’s just say i’m going to be contributing to the site on a much more regular basis
by Rob Castellano on May 3, 2010 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Great analysis
I had a feeling the numbers looked something like that. Maybe someone should tell Jerry that moving Jose to the 3 spot only “balances the lineup” insofar as there is an equal number of bad hitters at the top and bottom of the order. Putting him there is doing nothing but taking ABs away from Jose, Bay, and Wright. Any benefit you would have gotten from hitting him at 3 is immediately negated by hitting players like Gary Matthews and Alex Cora at 1 and 2.
Want lineup balance? Hit Pagan number 2 behind Reyes, with Wright and Bay following. Hell, hit Pagan leadoff and Reyes 2nd with Bay 3rd if it makes you feel better. Put Castillo in the 8 hole where he belongs, and Gary Matthews in a hole in the ground.
I was really afraid this might happen. A nice little winning streak and suddenly Omar and the media think it was because of Jerry, when we intelligent fans can see that it was actually in spite of him.
not that any batting order really helps
although I’d like to see less of GMJ, Tatis and Cora thank you very much.
this team is and has been a streaky offensive team. At least they will stay in most games this year, seems like.
how is it when the Mets have their fill-ins they can’t hit a lick, but Juan Castro hits well filling in for Rollins? Sigh.
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"

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