Mets Management Needs To Start Evaluating Talent In The Present
From the unintentionally foreboding fluff piece that keeps on giving:
He, unlike most scouts, had command of both English and Spanish. He could walk into the poorest prospect's home, wash down the oxtail and goat stew with a tall glass of boiled roots without a blink, infect the fathers with his easy smile, convince the mothers with his eyes. He could vouch for their 17-year-olds' soft landing in the U.S.; why, O himself, who soon doubled as manager of the Rangers' Florida Instructional League team, would be their shepherd on the other side. His networks, like fungi, sprouted overnight. The Mayor, visiting Rangers officials soon dubbed him.
--snip--
Great interview, great nose for talent, extraordinary interpersonal skills, they'd say. Lacks administrative skills, they'd whisper, and let what O didn't have eclipse what he did.
"The Mayor"--it fits. Politicians don't scour the population for the most qualified person for administrative positions. Expertise is often compromised for familiarity and allegiance. A young man shakes hands with a mayor and years later, now just a man, he's got a minor bureaucratic job with a decent government salary. A young man shakes hands with The Mayor and years later, he makes thirty-six million dollars.
This offseason, the Nationals new general manager Mike Rizzo traded the first pick in the Rule 5 draft to the Yankees for reliever Brian Bruney, he of career 4.75 FIP. To make room, he released reliever Saul Rivera, who has a career 3.95 FIP. In essence, he traded Rivera, the best player in baseball not good enough for 40-man roster consideration, and $800,000 in salary for an arguably worse reliever. Why? Rizzo was part of the Diamondbacks Front Office that drafted the then 18-year-old Bruney out of high school. And after trading for him 10 years later, Rizzo lauded the closer-potential he saw in Bruney at the time.
I was thinking about this trade recently, while watching Bruney pitch mop-up for the Nashville Sounds. Yea, not a big deal (pun intended). But when someone talks about a below-average 28-year-old reliever like they're the second-coming of Mariano Rivera, you have to question the underlying thought process.
Trading for players from past organizations is a hallmark for crappy GMs. It's the "A" in Dayton Moore. Finding the random former-Expo in every Omar Minaya-offseason is like the mystery prize in the Fruity Loops box. "Mom, I got a Clint Everts this time! No, I don't think it does anything."
The Mets have needed roster-security for the past few years and they've mistaken that time and again with their personal security, bred from familiarity with a given player. And ever since Jeff Wilpon got involved as co-Mayor, it's only gotten worse. I suspect Mike Jacobs, Jason Bay and Gary Matthews Jr. signal the first of many former early-2000's Mets re-acquired under Jeff's leadership. It's as if the Mets are run by two kids whose only qualifications to manage a team is they used to always play each other in MVP Baseball 2003; one would always pick the Expos, the other the Mets. Actually, that might be Jeff Wilpon's only qualification to run a team.
That's a lot to say that the Mets have a hard time conceptualizing what a player is, relative to what he was. I intend to write more about this subject later, but yesterday provided a neat example of this problem:
"We'll just have to make some tough, tough decisions in going forward," Manuel said, "if we deem after his next outing that he's ready to join us and compete at the Major League level."
Lost in the confusion propagated by one hack Mets blog I won't name here, about whether or not Jerry Manuel intends to re-insert John Maine into the rotation, is the more relevant question: why is John Maine still around? In 2007, John Maine was a 26 year old pitcher with good peripherals and an interesting fastball. There was some upside there. Now, Maine is 29, he's got a long history of arm problems, no velocity, and absolutely no idea of the strikezone. If I didn't know any better, I'd say he's a prime candidate for a 3-year $36 million dollar contract. But he's not represented by Scott Boras, so let's just release him.
The best part had to be this, though:
But Manuel also indicated that he does not consider Maine a candidate for the bullpen.
Wait, you don't consider him an option for the bullpen where he could maybe recover some of his velocity and pitch essentially meaningless innings, but you're considering him for the rotation? John Maine...the guy who can barely lift his arm after five straight innings. By my count the Mets have 3 or 4 guys in the bullpen, who, for one reason or another, should be in AA. But you want to put him in the rotation, at the risk of losing the pitcher with the best FIP on the team to waivers?
...Wait why is the lame-duck manager making roster decisions?
Release Perez. Release Maine. It's not 2007. Stop wasting the time of minor-league managers with their pointless rehab starts. There's no rehabilitation program for being bad.
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It's a pity
That this won’t fall like a cartoon anvil upon the already deaf and blind and dumb ears that run the Mets organization, instead only being heard by the faithful choir of Met acolytes who espouse the same sermon.
by keepcoolbutcare on Jun 20, 2010 6:33 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Five assets are used to evaluate Major League Pitchers
1-Power fastball
2-Control of the strike zone
3-Good movement on a variety of pitches
4-Health and endurance
5-Mound prescence and toughness
A Major League pitcher must posess some of these qualities
John Maine and Ollie no longer have any of these and if you throw in attitude
the Mets Have no reason not to give these two gentlemen,if the Mets are serious
about this season,their outright release.
by Putnan Prince on Jun 20, 2010 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Typically I do not agree with you
But I’m 100% on your side here. I like John Maine a lot, and I wish he was good. I used to actually like Oliver Perez, and I wish he was good as well. But those are not reasons to keep players on a major league roster when they are not good, especially at the expense of superior players.
by Thomas Wachtel on Jun 20, 2010 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions
it seems to me like 1 should be moved to 5
and that the Mets focus on 1, 3, and 5
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A proud purveyor of MS Paints since Sep 09, 2009
I'm all for dropping Perez
…and Maine too. I tried to think of a reason to keep Maine but I blanked.
Reason to keep Maine
He might push Mejia to the minors.
Nothing can get by him; especially in a small room: Mike Francessa
by GenJackRipper on Jun 20, 2010 7:44 AM EDT up reply actions
This is a no-win situation
I sense that the team will feel pressed to make a trade, and worse, it may be one in haste that reflects the ultimately failing “WIN NOW!” attitude. When it comes to economic efficiency, the Mets FO simply suck at it. (I know, it’s obvious)
A proud purveyor of MS Paints since Sep 09, 2009
I highly doubt they expose Dickey to waivers
I’ll believe that when I see it. Omar pursued him for years, and he’s paid off spectacularly; he’s not going anywhere.
If Maine pushes anyone out of the rotation it’s Tak2, and they won’t cut him either, he’ll go to the bullpen. (I don’t think he’d have to be exposed to waivers anyway, since he’s a rookie.)
But really, I’d just completely ignore anything Jerry and Omar say about Maine right now. They may be trying to squeeze some kind of trade value out of him, which is why they haven’t cut him yet. (Yeah, I know, but most teams in their position would at least try that first.) But one more rehab start with crap velocity, and one more good start from Tak2, and I wouldn’t be surprised a bit if he’s DFA-ed.
I wonder, though
why not just keep Maine in the minors? The team isn’t obligated to call him up, are they? I mean, if Maine has no spot on the Mets roster, maybe he will on the Bisons’ roster.
A proud purveyor of MS Paints since Sep 09, 2009
His rehab period on a DL trip has a limit, which I believe is a month
After that (If healthy enough to keep pitching) he’d need to accept an assignment or be DFA’d to be removed from the 40 if they want to keep him in the minors.
Reyes, Thole, Wright, Beltran, Bay, Davis, Martinez, Tejada...
by Stephen Schmidt on Jun 20, 2010 8:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Picking the lesser of the two evils
Never easy, but I suppose that if Maine doesn’t show improvement enough in the minors, then, it’ll obviously signal that it’s time for him to go.
A proud purveyor of MS Paints since Sep 09, 2009
they said on a broadcast that Maine does not need to be in majors.
Unlike Perez, they can send him down without asking permission.
I am a fan of both the mets and knicks... so just kill me now.
but he is on a rehab assignment and dl
so they would have to make a move before the rehab ended to put him down there. I think you only need 5 years mlb service time to refuse assignment to AAA and think he has that
If Rubins twitter is right
Maines clock might stop for comming back it says he doesn’t feel well
by Sir Tmac on Jun 20, 2010 12:20 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Maines clock might stop for comming back it says he doesn’t feel well
I can’t parse this.
by TMS on Jun 20, 2010 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Maine says he is still hurt
So he will remain on the DL and the clock for how long he is allowed to stay in the minors won’t be used up.
In which case we'll probably have time to get a real sense
of whether Maine is capable of contributing to the ML team. I suppose if it’s in doubt he could be brought up as the 12th man in the pen, and if he handles a couple of mopup assignments well then.. he’ll get a couple more mopup assignments.
why is John Maine and Ollie on the roster?
to protect Omar Minaya’s ass. he won’t admit he made gigantic mistakes in keeping/resigning those crappy players.
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
I am going to nitpick here...
I disagree with some of this. Keeping Maine at the start of the season was not a bad idea. Maine has been battling arm trouble for a couple of years, but he’s not all that expensive (only $3.3 million), and if the medical reports indicated that it was likely that he would regain his velocity, it would have made sense; at the price, it seems like a good low risk/high reward proposition. With a few more months of information, it seems that cutting bait with Maine now is probably the right move (if they are not prepared to try to convert him into a reliever), but I don’t believe that bringing Maine back was bad process.
On Oliver Perez, I agree with you 100%. Signing Perez was a clear mistake at the time and has played out accordingly.
I'm with you on this one
I feel bad for Maine, but I kind of despise Perez like very few I have ever despised before.
A proud purveyor of MS Paints since Sep 09, 2009
It's hard not to despise a fucking asshole like Perez.
He is a great example of putting himself before the team.
Fuck that guy. Praying for a career ending injury for him.
I guess retardation and terrible facial hair isn’t enough.
Also agreed
I was a big Maine backer until now, but he should only be compared to Ollie in the sense of their not helping the team anymore. Maine just got hurt too much, and now he can’t do what he used to do. As for Ollie — well, that’s another story altogether.
From Fred to Jeff
and O to Jerr
Funny things
Are everywhere
- Dr. Seuss (if he were a Mets fan)
keeping him wasn't a mistake
slotting him into a rotation spot from the get go and not pursuing superior pitchers was a MASSIVE mistake.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
Ain't that the truth.
I thought if wasn’t clear cut to offer him arb, but having done that it made no sense to guarantee him a spot in the rotation at the start of the season. His ST numbers were nightmarish, Takahashi had been a starter in Japan for years, and there was a clear need for a long reliever, a role Maine would have been better suited to while limiting the damage he could do.
If the Mets finish a game or two out of the postseason is the narrative going to be how close a valiant club that no one expected to contend came to reaching the playoffs, or is it going to be how Minaya’s utter blindness to the weakness of the back end of the rotation cost the team two to four games for no frakking reason whatsoever?
sad state of affairs
It’s as if the Mets are run by two kids whose only qualifications to manage a team is they used to always play each other in MVP Baseball 2003; one would always pick the Expos, the other the Mets. Actually, that might be Jeff Wilpon’s only qualification to run a team.
Brutal, but spot-on. Nice piece, Sam.
We've got ourselves a ball club, the Mets of New York town!
Sam, you are my hero.
Release Perez. Release Maine. It’s not 2007. Stop wasting the time of minor-league managers with their pointless rehab starts. There’s no rehabilitation program for being bad.
Excellent.
One day, this team is going to kill me.
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A proud purveyor of MS Paints since Sep 09, 2009
Trading for players from past organizations is a hallmark for crappy GMs
As an Islanders fan too, I can assure you this is true. Milbury brought in tons of players from his coaching days in Boston who just didn’t have it. He also drafted players that Boston had drafted but had gone unsigned, even ones when he wasn’t there. It’s a weird trait for bad gms.
The Islanders went from Marty McInnis and a 2nd Overall pick to Jesse Joensuu.
im not sure this is so cut and dry
It seems to me that of course a GM is going to try to acquire players they think have promise. They have already spent time, money and decision making capital (aka gut feeling) to identify players they “like.” Why would they suddenly give up on these players when they switch organizations? So i submit that it’s not so much a “hallmark of a crappy GM” as it is, in the case where they have eyes for a player “who just doesn’t have it,” crappy instincts or decision making or whatever. The only thing that makes it visible is that they have switched to different organizations. It is likely “good GMs” whoever they are, do the same thing, just with better results. This argument seems more flip and entertaining then necessarily logical.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Jun 20, 2010 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
what? no.
The point of this piece is that “good” GMs, with or without the quotation marks, use sensible talent-evaluation methods that take age and context and all past performance into account, rather than thinking “promise” is some immutable thing conferred on a particular player at age 18 by their own gut instincts, never to be revoked by any amount of actual bad performance. It’s not a matter of “suddenly” giving up on a once-promising player — quite the reverse, it’s a matter of gradually accomodating your perception of his potential to the demonstrated reality of his performance.
what? huh.
i get the point of the piece thanks. I was trying to address the difference that GMs dragging their favorites with them to a new organization makes. I guess I am speculating that the hallmark of a crappy GM is the stubbornly poor judgment itself, not the kind of variation that, say, Milbury moving to NY from Boston makes. I’m not seeing how your response clarifies this for me.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Jun 20, 2010 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
the point is to analyze a specific kind of bad judgment.
It’s a tautology that bad judgment is the hallmark of bad GMs, since their job is basically evaluating and valuing players and team needs. The point here is that Omar’s dumbness often has a specific hallmark — for him, falling in love with a player once means loving him forever, no matter what evidence accrues after that. Contrary to what you claimed above, a GM should always be adjusting his ideas about players’ potential, not behaving as though the player’s “potential” or the GM’s “liking” him are permanent once granted to a kid at the age of 18 or 20.
i think you're misreading what i claimed
but this isn’t going anywhere.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Jun 20, 2010 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
you claimed
“crappy instincts or decision making or whatever.”
Every GM doing talent evaluation will experience a range of rightness. Sometimes what you think you see “instinctually” develops into a good, usable player. Often it does not.
Good GM makes proper decisions while seeing talent evaluation unfold, knows when they’ve made a crappy “gut call.”
Bad GM retaints initial “gut call” perspective without giving due weight to performance.
i think what he is trying to say
is that a GM, good or bad, will like they same players they previously liked.
I am a fan of both the mets and knicks... so just kill me now.
but this is demonstrably not true
This is one of the defining characteristics of a smart GM — the smart ones are constantly reevaluating, and want to recognize as quickly as possible when a gamble isn’t paying off.
Some of Maine's games this year
suggest to me that there is something there worth trying to salvage. In particular, the LA start is not something to sneeze at: 9Ks? Takahashi hasn’t recorded more than six in any game.
W L ERA SV IP H ER BB K
04/28/2010 LAD 1 0 7.15 0 6.0 4 2 3 9
05/04/2010 @CIN 0 0 5.97 0 6.0 4 1 2 6
05/10/2010 WSH 0 1 5.45 0 6.0 7 2 4 5
05/15/2010 @FLA 0 1 6.13 0 5.0 7 6 5 5
I’m not saying I’d prefer him over who we have in the rotation, now. I’m saying I might try to put him in the rotation, so long as it’s Meija who gets sent down.
the la start also came with crazy wind at the plate
which, he even admitted himself, gave his fastball more life than he’s had in 2 years.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
This says to me that we need to install giant fans in the outfield wall.
When we’re on defense, turn them on to keep balls in the stadium, and give our pitchers more movement on their balls. When we’re on offense, put them on exhaust, to help suck those balls out of the stadium. When they’re on exhaust, they might also maybe suck in an opposing outfielder or two, leading to a gruesome death for one Shane Dicktorino.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jun 20, 2010 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
dr dork=
best screen name ever. esp if dork is a synonym for Dickey.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Jun 20, 2010 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
thanks
I must admit that the nickname was given to me, not one I invented on my own.
Those are the best kinds.
Ogre was given, not chosen, and that makes it all the better.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
I love John Maine
Game 161 of the 2007 season might have been the greatest game ever pitched by a Met, but the guy is DONE. It’s sad but true, and we have to move on.
What makes this idiocy even more puzzling is that the Mets rotation has been pretty damn good of late. Santana-Pelfrey-Niese-Takahashi-Dickey…..where’s the weak spot? Which of those pitchers should lose his rotation spot to make room for John Maine?
If Manuel re-inserts Maine into the rotation, he needs to be immediately fired.
"It’s just everytime we think the bar can’t get lower, they lower it. Now next year we’ll just be happy to hear that rogue shirtless officials aren’t implementing useless detrimental drills in spring training for no apparent reason."
-Gina, 3/1/10
by Greenpoint Ian on Jun 20, 2010 11:06 AM EDT reply actions
I was at that game, and I agree 100%.
Great guy, deserves a standing O if he ever comes back, but he’s done with us.
John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.
i agree that it'd be lunacy to restore Maine to the rotation now or for the forseeable future, but
how do we know he’s “done”? I wouldn’t shed a tear if they got rid of him, but his injuries probably need some time.
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Jun 20, 2010 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
There a fanpost a few months back about the best Mets games ever pitched.
Maine got an honorable mention for like 6th best, or something to that effect.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jun 20, 2010 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
granted
but the next three starts saw decent Ks, too. Yes, 5/15 stunk overall, but he did record 5 Ks. All I’m saying is that, unlike Perez, at this point I see something worth trying to recapture in Maine.
Dickey should teach Maine the knuckler
Doesn’t matter if his fastball can’t reach 90 if he can figure that pitch out.
Are there any knuckleball relievers, I wonder?
wakefield was bostons closer for a couple years
and was not that bad actually.
I am a fan of both the mets and knicks... so just kill me now.
It takes years to learn the knuckler and to throw it somewhere
near the strike zone somewhat consistently.Hoyt Wilhelm years ago and Wakefield pitched in relief as a knuckleballer I’m sure the Niekro Bros. were used in relief occasionally.
by Putnan Prince on Jun 20, 2010 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions
love this line
It’s as if the Mets are run by two kids whose only qualifications to manage a team is they used to always play each other in MVP Baseball 2003; one would always pick the Expos, the other the Mets. Actually, that might be Jeff Wilpon’s only qualification to run a team.
Maine’s return to the rotation would be pure lunacy. He’s done nothing in the past two years to show that he can pitch consistently well as a starter. I don’t think the Mets should release him because there’s plenty of ways they can keep him on the major-league roster without harming the team (e.g. demoting Mejia) and he may be useful if there’s an injury to a starter. But, barring such an injury, he should not be considered for the rotation until either Dickey or Tak2 pitch themselves out of a spot.
I dont see why we can't give him a shot in the bullpen though
if he’s coming out for short bursts, maybe he can get some more life on his pitches. at least let him try it out in the minors for a bit and see how it goes. at this point it can’t hurt. not saying its guaranteed, but it seems once the mets make up their mind about a player, they stick to their guns no matter what. in this case, jerry obviously despises john maine and doesn’t want to see him back with the club. even if maine doesn’t deserve a spot, i hate how the mets arrive at that conclusion based more on jerry’s dislike of him than anything else.
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
and i understand he's been shit
but i’m saying that if jerry didn’t have a problem with him, we’d probably see maine at least getting a shot in the minor league pen. i really do believe he can be more effective that raul valdes
"I only wanted a few things out of life -- a wife, children, to play baseball and to hunt deer." - Turk Wendell
OK, GM?
Sam makes excellent points about both pitchers & the organization. Someone wrote earlier about how the Mets’ hot streak coinided with the absence of several players: Perez, Maine, Castillo, & Matthews. The team needs to stop wasting at-bats & innings pitched on players who can’t get the job done.
I don't think Maine will improve at all as a reliever
His secondary pitches have always been mediocre; now his fastball is atrocious (with the lack of velocity + terrible location).
There’s no way Jerry is replacing Takahashi or Dickey with Maine; Manuel has thrown Maine under the bus what, like 3 times this year? It’s similar to what happened last year with Ryan Church. Jerry kept making stupid comments to the media and soon, Church was traded for the embodiment of intangibles. Maine won’t be “rehabbing” forever—I’d be surprised if they don’t release him or find a team ignorant enough to take a flier on him.
Trying to believe is my full-time occupation.
I wouldn't be surprised to see Milwaukee pick him up, in theory.
They need pitching, in both the starting and relief categories, and Peterson is there- maybe because of his influence, or maybe not because of it, but either way, Maine had his best time as a player under his tutelage.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jun 20, 2010 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
There's no reason to jettison pieces that can be useful, in theory, when there's no reason to.
Maine, he can be useful, in theory. Inserting Maine into the rotation would not be a preferable idea, as Tak2 and Dickey are getting things done nicely. Inserting him into the bullpen is not a “cure-all” for Maine’s problems- I don’t think he’ll start throwing 93-93 again- but I’d be more confident in John Maine than I would be in, say, Elmer Dessens.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jun 20, 2010 4:28 PM EDT reply actions
Its all about the velocity
We all know what kind of pitcher John Maine is. We’ve seen him at his most effective and we’ve seen him the last couple of years. Even when Maine was pitching great, he didn’t have great control. He always walked a few too many batters and threw a lot of pitches. When he had his velocity he also got lots of swings and misses and popups and high flyball outs. Now those are trending more toward hard hit balls. So what’s point? My point is that we don’t have keep sending him back out there wondering if he’ll be effective. His effectiveness is tied directly to his velocity. Figure just what the heck is wrong with his arm and if possible fix it. All efforts toward getting Maine back in the rotation should be focused on getting his velocity back. If he can get it back he can be the pitcher he was in ‘07. He hasn’t lost 3-4 mph off his velocity from age 26 to age 29 because of normal aging. His arm is injured in some way. If the damage can be repaired or heal then we have something. If not then he’ll have to re-invent himself to be a major league pitcher but he shouldn’t be doing that at the major league level. The frustrating thing is that noone is explaining or even trying to explain why his friggin velocity has disappeared. They act like it doesn’t matter that much and his problems are from location. NO, not so. Every time he pitches and I see the MPH readings at 88, 89, 88, 87… I just say to myself ‘nope he’s not back yet – why are we bothering?’. Lets get his velocity back if we can – otherwise cut bait.

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