A Modest Proposal for the Fifth Starter Spot
Somewhere, John Maine is still trying to make his comeback despite the aches and pains he reports after every start. Color the average Mets fan unimpressed. Of course, Hisanori Takahashi can make a decent starter, as outlined here in a pitch f/x piece I did for Bloomberg Sports, but I also think that the ideal solution is beyond the imagination of the people in charge.
So let's make a modest proposal that shouldn't be of Swiftian proportions, but probably will be given the state of innovation in baseball. (Really, what were the innovations over the last fifty years in pitching? Lower pitch counts, one-inning relievers, and 'closers?' Do we really think that all arms come in either the 'six innings every five days' or 'one inning every day and a half' variety? What about three innings every three days? It does not seem far-fetched to question if pitchers really come in two different shapes and sizes.)
Given this preamble, let's make the proposal. Once Maine is "healthy," why don't the Mets try a six-man rotation. No, not one where they feature six different starters, but more one where the team has four starters, and then platoons Maine and Takahashi in the fifth-starter role. Platooning starting pitchers has never been done, but let us lay out the reasons that it might not be a bad idea in this particular* case. (*(c) Jerry Manuel)
First, why these here arms may well be suited for the job. Richard Gross over at my old stomping grounds, GodBlessBuckner.com, points out the following about Takahashi:
Opposing hitters are already warming up to Takahashi as he moves through the lineup two or three times. The first time around batters are hitting just .250. The average goes up a pinch the second time around to .268 but by the third time, it jumps significantly to .346. To further bring the point home, the Florida Marlins have seen Takahashi on four separate occasions this season: three times in relief and once as a starter. The third and fourth go-arounds against the Marlins have resulted in a cumulative 7 earned runs through 8.1 innings.
Those numbers for Takahashi are currently .224/.269/.286, then .245/.288/.405 and then a whopping .355/.394/.484 the third time around. The same trend holds true for Maine this year. Batters hit .305/.414/.424 (!) the first time through, .293/.414/.483 the second time around, and then turn into Barry Bonds the third time around with a .293/.348/.659 line. If we go for a larger sample size, the same trend holds true but the numbers look better: .217/.294/.348, then .229/.325/.402 the second time, and .275/.358/.480 the third time around.
Okay, so this isn't rocket science. Bullpen arms almost always benefit from shorter stints, and Maine in particular struggles to maintain his velocity and should gain from seeing fewer batters. How about the effect on the staff? First, a note on how this would work. Starters have to be set up to pitch every fifth day, but they also have a throw day, so each guy (Takahashi more likely) would be available an extra day of the week. By carefully working the rotation, both guys could be available for an inning, say, on Jonathon Niese's days in case he has a poor outing. They wouldn't necessarily be limited to pitching three innings each every other start.
But let's say they only pitch three innings every other start. Over a year, that would mean you are devoting two pitchers to about 95 innings instead of aiming to have one starter with 180+ innings. How badly would that effect your pen? Let's say the current rotation would have a guy with 140 innings like Maine last had in 2008 - could it survive with a bullpen pitcher pitching 'only' 40 innings in the pen? Um, yes. Here are the pitchers that were in the pen last year and didn't amass 40 innings: Fernando Nieve, Ken Takahashi, Elmer Dessens, J.J. Putz and Lance Broadway.
Or, to put it another way, the Mets' pen put in 501 innings last year, and their starters 924.1 innings. By shifting 50 innings (the 50 innings you 'lose' by targeting only 90 innings from Maine instead of 140) to the pen, they'd be asking six pitchers to put in 550 innings. That sounds bad - the other guys in the pen would have to come up with 90 innings. However, those 924.1 innings by the starters last year was only 5.71 innings per start. If you have Takahashi and Maine platoon, could they average seven innings per start? That doesn't seem unreasonable. Take those 1.3 innings, multiply them by 35 starts, and you save the pen 45 innings. Well, heck, that's easy math. You save the innings you lose if the two of them can average seven innings per start together.
There's yet another way to look at this. The five rotation spots on the Mets averaged 184.82 innings last year, and the six bullpen spots 83.5 innings. Losing those 84 innings might hurt, but that's assuming you can't use either guy on throw days. Getting 40 innings from each over the course of the season would be asking them to throw an inning and a third between each 'start.'
Would this murder Jerry Manuel's precious flexibility? The six remaining pitchers in the pen might be asked to handle a little more, or maybe they wouldn't. By using Takahashi (and maybe Maine later in the season) occasionally on their throw day, you should remove that caveat. Yes, this approach would require more work and more effort with the schedule. Yes, it would require an in-depth look at the mechanics of pitching and the possibility of injury - which means it won't happen this year.
Instead, one of the two will go to the pen to be abused by Jerry Manuel. And that pitcher will probably rescue the other pitcher for multiple innings very often. So, in effect, this may actually happen, via the 'long reliever we will save for the days that our most-likely-to-explode pitcher is on the hill' method. But they won't call it a platoon, and they won't take up this modest proposal in name. But the whole situation is worth daydreaming about on a light-schedule day.
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I like it
A similar idea for Maine and Ollie was mooted here once I think, but probably only in passing and without the statistical clout. Too sensible to actually happen of course, but it’s a solid solution to a headache.
John Maine received his 11th medical opinion from another Dr. at Met sponsor The Hospital
by Putnan Prince on Jun 23, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
For special surgery(can you say,conflict of interest) Dr.Jack Kevorkian has diagnosed
John with a dying arm,not merely a tired arm and has agreed to put it out of its misery in the most painless and humane way possible.
by Putnan Prince on Jun 23, 2010 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions
How about
trading for Cliff Lee or Roy Oswalt and not having to worry about Maine/Perez for the rest of this season at least?
by Southfield_2001 on Jun 21, 2010 6:37 PM EDT reply actions
the more i have thought about it
the less i want to give up much for either. unless they wanna take jason bay and his contract
That's not in anyway realistic
There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ
The 2010 Mets- Hey, we may suck, but what did you expect?
didnt say it was
just who i want to get rid of
or bb rod
"The one thing you don't want to do is hit a home run. That's a rally-killer." -Jeff Francoeur
by RangersandMets on Jun 21, 2010 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Seems like a reasonable idea
that unfortunately will never get a chance to see the light of day.
I’m a bit skeptical of Tak’s split between 1st, 2nd and 3rd PA’s though. It seems a fairly small sample, and since he wasn’t really “stretched out” prior to being used in the rotation, is it possible that the 3rd time around might be affected by fatigue. Not that it would change the priniciple of wanting to limit his facing batters a third time, but I’m wondering if perhaps he might tone down that split by just having his arm stretched out a bit.
Well
Patrick Newman (fangraphs Japanese guy) basically said Takahashi was a six inning pitcher his last few years in Japan, so I don’t know if he can be stretched out anymore than he has been
by Jeffrey Paternostro on Jun 21, 2010 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions
To be fair
just about everybody outside of Halladay and Jimenez is a 6-inning pitcher in the NL nowadays. 6 innings is 3 times generally 2+ times through the order unless a pitcher is really dealing.
by SoCal Metfan on Jun 21, 2010 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Not sure what "3 times generally 2+ times through"
means, but three times through the order means approximately six innings when a pitcher’s OBP against is around .333. (27 batters, 18 outs). If a pitcher has trouble the third time through the order that means he’s struggling to get past the fourth inning. Not a recipe for success, though if you DO go with a platoon within the start itself, you’ve got a shot.
I really like the proposal’s willingness to experiment, which is far more than I can credit Manuel and Minaya for.
talked to newman about Tak
And one of his knocks beyond longevity in-game is longevity in-season (he’s had some low innings totals in japan). This would keep his innings for the season down and maybe the team could get something out of him next year too.
Maybe so, but isn't Takahashi just with the Mets for one year?
Cot’s has him as 1/1 + performance bonuses. Not sure whether he’s under team control in coming years given his past history.
i'd love to see it, even if just for the novelty
although i feel like this sort of thing could work, and a team that really took to it could even mix and match pitchers on a case by case basis to some extent (assuming proper amounts of rest for the 4-5 innings they would be pitching).
by KeithsMoustache on Jun 21, 2010 6:55 PM EDT reply actions
i feel that what you and eno say make sense
but not for someone like jerry and warthen to handle
oh god no, they cant handle basic strategy
you’d need someone who’s good at fine tuning.
by KeithsMoustache on Jun 21, 2010 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions
...and at improvising on the fly.
That puts this way, way beyond their abilities.
But how do you get WINZ when you only pitch 3 innings?
You don't cheer for the Mets. You drink for the Mets.
I actually think a good alternative to Lee/Oswalt would be
to sign Pedro Martinez and have Tak2 piggyback him since Pedro is probably just a 5 inning pitcher these days. I think the net result would be a solid starter for cheap who can probably give you 7 innings (say Pedro goes 4 and Tak goes 3 or what have you).
The one and only mistermet on teh Interwebz!
by Steve Schreiber on Jun 21, 2010 7:52 PM EDT reply actions
mo vaughn could also spell Ike at first
hell, he’s probably still being paid by the mets
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Jun 21, 2010 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions
why bother when we can have Bobby Bo do it
by KeithsMoustache on Jun 21, 2010 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions
he's manning the Wilpon yaht
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Jun 21, 2010 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions
This is not a bad idea, but it's also not that different from just making Maine the traditional "long man"
I mean, I’m assuming everything else averages out and that the “starter” who draws the short straw (hopefully Maine) and pitches in relief is going to be used on some off days, too, so it’s not a total waste of his roster spot. If so, you’re basically proposing reallocating one or two innings per week from the “fifth starter” role to the “long man.” It’s a fine idea, but I think there are a lot of other places we ought to be fighting conventional thinking first, because it hurts the team more (e.g. save-driven “closer” role vs. leverage-driven bullpen use).
by anonymous on Jun 21, 2010 8:05 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I mostly agree with this.
what remains to be seen is how effective (or willing) Maine would be in this scenario.
Let’s not forget Jerry is the manager.
One day, this team is going to kill me.
main difference
Between Maine as long man and Maine as co-starter is the planning aspect, and the built-in rest. It might even remove the Jerry factor by giving him rules he had to follow. Could save both arms and get the best of both…
yeah the problem with making someone a long man
is Jerry has no concept of bullpen management and would have him pitch everyday anyway
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
So, the conditions set for this to work are:
1)Maine is becomes healthy
2)Maine still plays for the Mets
3)Maine can pitch effectively for at least 3 innings
4)Maine (and Tak2) agree and adapt to this setup (check if he is “into it”)
5)Strict rules are set to Jerry
6)Jerry understands those rules (pen management 101 is hard enough for him)
7)Jerry abides to those rules
8)If there is an extra workload for the pen, it’ll be distributed among all relievers (or he’ll just ask Nieve to pitch 2 innings everyday, while the others are in the doghouse)
9)There is no other pitcher readily available in AAA who can pitch equal or better than the “healthy Maine”, playing the traditional long man/staff saver role.
While I appreciate out-of-the-box solutions, we can’t count on a healthy and somewhat effective Maine anytime soon. Having many if/when conditions or Jerry involved makes this even more complicated.
Considering the master strategist we have as manager, we should hope to make thing simpler. Just as an example, if starters go 7 innings, it’ll drastically reduce the room for his pen mismanagement.
In lobby campaign for Chris Carter.
Darn. When I saw the title,
I thought you were going to propose eating Ollie.
by dontstopbelieving on Jun 21, 2010 9:32 PM EDT reply actions
Can I rec this
and flag it at the same time?
From Fred to Jeff
and O to Jerr
Funny things
Are everywhere
- Dr. Seuss (if he were a Mets fan)
Not into cannibalism
Besides, to paraphrase the Bull Durham line, I’m afraid Ollie tastes like pitches.
/sarcasm mode was on
From Fred to Jeff
and O to Jerr
Funny things
Are everywhere
- Dr. Seuss (if he were a Mets fan)
how does soylent pitcher taste?
it varies from person to person
by KeithsMoustache on Jun 21, 2010 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Didn't the Mets do something like this way back in the mid-80s
with Tom Gorman and Bruce Berenyi?
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
This is the second Bruce Berenyi quote in 2 days.
Amazing. I might have to go watch my old Doug Sisk gamefilm.
by MookieTheCat on Jun 21, 2010 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions
this just in
tim kurgin reported that maine is possibly done for the season and met career is over also so now one down one to go time to dump ollie. hey maybe the phillies could use him they like are rejects latley .
lohaus #54
So say you, mr baseball tim kurkjen wannabe!
…seriously, how is this person still not banned?
Is tim kurkjen related to tim kurgin?
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jun 21, 2010 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Or to Tim Kurkjian?
From Fred to Jeff
and O to Jerr
Funny things
Are everywhere
- Dr. Seuss (if he were a Mets fan)
wait
who the hell are we talking about?
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Jun 21, 2010 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions
is that even possible?
stats, they are seriously never in Francoeur's favor
link me
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Jun 21, 2010 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions
over/under
number of months before someone picks him up, fixes him and he throws a no hitter against us?
I’ll say 15, the no hitter will come in September and end our play-off chances.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
depends on if time itself is cyclic
by KeithsMoustache on Jun 21, 2010 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions
wow
it’d be 4 years from his beautiful 2007 game wouldn’t it.
I’m not 100% convinced this is going to happen.
I wonder if Carl Everett believes Jamie Moyer exists.
Yeah I'll go with 24 or so.
It usually takes two years for Mets management disasters to return.
by MookieTheCat on Jun 21, 2010 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Leaving aside that Maine may not be coming back.
It’s an interesting idea, but I doubt any current manager, let alone Jerry, would have the balls and the discipline to see something through. Most of them are in CYA mode anyway. Maybe La Russa would do something like this, but then he pioneered the one inning (or less) reliever concept. Maybe Valentine if he came back to managing.
From Fred to Jeff
and O to Jerr
Funny things
Are everywhere
- Dr. Seuss (if he were a Mets fan)
can you figure out a way
To have Maine/Tak2 on a six-day schedule (an extra day of rest between starts) and Dickey on a shorter schedule, like every three or four days?
You know what the Mets need?
A Bloomberg for pitches. Anyone else ever hang around investment banks and see the Bloombergs, which are essentially briefcases that can get you any financial information about anything, instantly (this is how mayor Mike originally made his fortune). The Mets need one that will instantly provide information about opposing players, with a special siren for something that goes against a Jerry assumption, such as a pitcher/batter matchup that doesn’t subscribe to basic thoughts on lefty/righty matchups
I guess I was out of it last summer...
How did I miss a pitcher named “Lance Broadway.” Please tell me his “coming up” music was from A Chorus Line.
Wow. Just wow.
We got him for Castro
Pitched a couple of games at the end of the year. Has bigger issues now.
From Fred to Jeff
and O to Jerr
Funny things
Are everywhere
- Dr. Seuss (if he were a Mets fan)
Man...To get beat up by a guy named Lance Broadway...
Sounds like an Adam Sandler sketch.
by MookieTheCat on Jun 22, 2010 12:49 AM EDT up reply actions
I was convinced before clicking that he had been involved in some sort of sexual scandal
John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.
It's a cool idea, but ...
… the logistics would be tough to pull off. You would have to warm up either Maine or Tak2 during the game for an extended outing (instead of a normal warm-up routine), and there’s a real chance for injury there. The pitchers would also have to alternate their warmup routines for the long outing / short outing setup, which is really awkward. This isn’t MLB 2K10 where if a pitcher’s stamina refills 100%, he’s good to go. Real pitchers need to stick to strict routines or seriously risk injury. Even back in the day of the 160-pitch complete game, the pitchers still had to stick to their warmup and rest routines.
More realistically, Jerry would be forced to make some odd decisions. Let’s say that John Maine rolls out there and pitches one-hit ball through four innings in a scoreless game. Do you pull Maine in the fifth for Tak2 just to stay on schedule for having Maine pickup his one inning of work three days later? Why would you pull a pitcher who is absolutely dealing for a guy that may or may not have his tuff that day? If Tak2 comes in and gets shelled, it’s a pretty bad move.
I read one of Tim McCarver’s books a long time ago where some scout was proposing a similar idea where your 12-man staff would consist of a closer, a ROOGY, a LOOGY, and nine ‘starters’ where the starters would throw three innings each every three days. The relievers would be brought in in high-leverage or funky matchup situations. The idea was that the batters would be unable to get comfortable if they were facing oh let’s say Pelfrey, Feliciano, and Dickey in consecutive at bats. The opposing manager would also be unable to play platoon matchups if you went R/L/R or L/R/L with the pitchers.
It leads to a bunch of problems, mostly pertaining to how you use your best pitchers. What manager is going to watch Ubaldo Jiminez whiff six guys in three innings and then pull him for Jhoullys Chacin? The whole three inning every three games thing would also see your ace pitcher throwing only 162 innings, which is much less than they should be throwing.
having all of that rambled...
I would say that if Maine had to start on this staff, just go with the old fifth starter / long man setup and give him a short leash and have Tak2 stretched out and ready to go multiple innings.
I remember those ideas. Fascinating stuff.
Since a hitter seeing a pitcher only once increases that pitcher’s value, it turns a pitcher with an ERA of 4 into a pitcher with an effective ERA of, say 3.70. You can either take that improvement, or seek out weaker pitchers cheaply and use the savings on your lineup.
You can also jigger with the 3 pitchers every 3 days business and give yourself some additional flexibility by having one stud pitcher and his own designated reliever, probably giving up a little in terms of platoon advantage with that reliever. That DR is also likely to be available on one of his off days. Or, you can go with a THIRTEEN man pitching staff, and a four man bench consisting of a catcher and three superutility guys.
It can get pretty complex, certainly more complex than Manuel can handle, but it’s interesting, interesting stuff.
I like the idea
good post. I am worried about Tak’s innings adding up.

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