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Around SBN: Please, Someone Make Bob Sapp Stop Already

Home Grown! The Beginner's Guide to Understanding The Mets, Vol. 2

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My dad told me to stop writing negative things about the Mets. He said they're winning and no one wants to read my complaining. So here's something positive I noticed:

Were Angel Pagan healthy last night, the Mets would have started eight homegrown players. Sure, Angel Pagan and Jason Bay broke into the majors with other teams, but only after being developed by Mets' coaches in the Mets' farm system.

Up-the-middle, Ruben Tejada and Jose Reyes, both international signees by Minaya, anchor the defense. Pagan-Wright-Davis, all drafted by the Mets, form the heart of the order. The battery of Pelfrey-Thole, also both recent draftees, could be a winning combination for the next decade. Bobby Parnell contributed. Jeff Francoeur is Atlanta's fault. That's more homegrown talent in the starting lineup than any of the great small-market scouting organizations, including Atlanta, Tampa Bay, Milwaukee, Colorado and most emphatically, the team opposite to them, the Twins.

Homegrown players that reflect some organizationally-imposed template are easily the most likable, regardless of the sport. Such players are integral to a team's identity--(Team Name) needs to get back to playing (Team Name) FootballTM. Organizations that focus on developing certain types of players are usually pretty successful too, as they can play to the strengths of their coaches and deal from that strength to fill weaknesses. Team U.S.A. nearly beat a far more talented Canadian team in the Vancouver Olympics because Brian Burke and David Poile only chose players that were young, fast, played a two-way game, and could play as a team. (I would use a more topical soccer metaphor, if I had any idea).

Omar Minaya promised system players built young and athletic, and at last, we seem to be crossing the Jordan. With Thole and Tejada in the lineup, the Mets, 1-8, all have something to contribute with their athleticism. What Jason Bay lacks as a fielder, he seems to make up with aggressive, smart baserunning. Ike Davis is kind of an awkward runner, but he can pick it. David Wright, Jose Reyes, Carlos Beltran, Angel Pagan, Ruben Tejada--even Francoeur--all have both.

I've reflected extensively on General Jack's statement "Omar is by far, in my view, the most sympathetic figure in the debacle of the David Wright Era." I want to believe that. The guy, after all, was my hero just a few years ago. At worst, I've been called smug know-it-all wannabe GM. Really, though, as a fan, I want nothing more than to think the people in charge of my favorite teams are far more qualified to run them than I'd ever hope to be.

The Mets recent failures have been organizational failures, top-to-bottom. And at the heart of that larger failure is a fundamental problem of misappropriation. Mathematicians, with no specific sabremetric background, were placed under the leadership of a legal expert, another field that vaguely involves numbers and technical issues, but really has no relevance. The unsympathetic, demanding curmudgeon was put in charge of the kids. The General Manager, a great recruit of international prospects and a well-respected amateur-scout, was given a budget earmarked for major-league spending, with a pittance reserved for the draft and foreign amateurs.

Whether or not Omar Minaya's talents are best served as a General Manager--it's an open question--it seems that his talents definitely haven't been maximized in this particular General Manager position. It's been a mind-boggling frustrating few seasons, but never has Omar panicked and dumped the farm. If anything, he has been patient to a fault, waiting for some guys to come around that never did. At various points in their young careers, however, I thought Angel Pagan, Mike Pelfrey, Ike Davis, and Bobby Parnell would never amount to much of anything in terms of major-league talents. I thought the Milledge trade was the end of the world. Holy cow, the Santana trade.

If this season is the peak of a slow-crescendoing player-development success story, I will forgive a lot. If the Mets fall short of the playoffs again, I'll bury all my Mets stuff in the back yard and start watching the NFL network. The way the market dynamics are changing in baseball, I'd happily root for a big-market scouting-powerhouse that makes the occasional contract-gaffe. I'm ready to make the Wilpons and their stupid budget stipulations the enemy. Just win something, playing Mets BaseballTM.

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It is a nice change

Wasn’t it just 2 or 3 years ago when they had the oldest team in all of baseball? Now most of the major contributors to the team haven’t even hit their prime. Also, I heard someone the other day talking about the draft, and he said that you have to consider a draft successful if it produces even 2 guys who produce at the MLB level, and the 2005 has produced several – Pelfrey, Niese, Parnell and Thole. Of course the latter two are pretty young and just breaking in, but that’s not bad.

by dcmetsfan on Jun 26, 2010 8:23 AM EDT reply actions  

this this this

we don’t need to pay for stars in the draft, we can pay for them in free agency. What we need to do is find high floor players who will at least be average to surround the stars with.

I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson

by Gina on Jun 26, 2010 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

another reason

they are playing much better baseball are two imports RA Dickey and Tak and mysterious injuries that have put Maine, and the met we all love to hate, Perez on the dl

by bob c on Jun 26, 2010 8:32 AM EDT reply actions  

Good point

It’s pretty stark how much better the replacements have been than some of the initial players on the roster.

Jacobs/Matthews/Catalanatto/Castillo – 290 PAs, .218/.310/.270
Davis/Feliciano/Carter/Tejada – 402 PAs, .261/.325/.411

Perez/Maine – 16 GS, 73 IP, 83 H, 13 HR, 53 BB, 66 K, 5.88 FIP, 6.04 ERA
Dickey/Takahashi (as starters) – 14 GS, 84.7 IP, 88 H, 7 HR, 26 BB, 61 K, 3.76 FIP, 3.19 ERA

by sjohnson125 on Jun 26, 2010 9:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

The difference in walks says it all

Freedom is a road seldom traveled by the multitudes...

by Major on Jun 26, 2010 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

well put Sam

"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin

by dcrockett17 on Jun 26, 2010 10:01 AM EDT reply actions  

Blastings for MVP!

You don't cheer for the Mets. You drink for the Mets.

by Kevin H on Jun 26, 2010 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

One note

Jason Bay was only in the Mets farm system for 2 months in 2002, you’re using a very loose definition of “homegrown” if he’s included

Goodbye Sir Dr. Sen. Brain SOCKS! D.D.S.R.S.V.P

by metsguy234 on Jun 26, 2010 10:57 AM EDT reply actions  

I concur

The general presence of many homegrown players, though, pleases me.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jun 26, 2010 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

you forget

Omar Minaya’s Expos are an extension of the Mets’ farm system

by Sam Page on Jun 26, 2010 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yay for us

but seriously, agreed that in general it’s nice to watch a team that doesn’t have 25 Mo Vaughns waddling around the diamond. Far more enjoyable to watch proper athleticism, wherever it comes from.

Travis Hafner is made of gold

by Super Mario on Jun 26, 2010 11:00 AM EDT reply actions  

Athleticism is indeed fun to watch

but I very much WOULD like to see a team with 25 Mo Vaughns waddling around, it would be hilarious.

by EricAColucci on Jun 26, 2010 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

That is true

Someone needs to clone that man, then film it in a sort of, “Multiplicity” spinoff

Travis Hafner is made of gold

by Super Mario on Jun 26, 2010 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mo Vaughn at shortstop is a hilarious proposition

John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.

by squid92 on Jun 26, 2010 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

As soon as the ball comes off the bat

he’d be saying “that’s all yours, centre-field Mo”

by deadspy3 on Jun 26, 2010 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hey, Kevin Mitchell played SS...

From Fred to Jeff
and O to Jerr
Funny things
Are everywhere

- Dr. Seuss (if he were a Mets fan)

by StorkFan on Jun 28, 2010 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

My optometrist

has 2 Shea chairs in his office. I noted this and he said he hadn’t really been a fan for a while, but that he was watching more than he had in a while and liked what he saw. I didn’t delve further than that. One never wants to know if one’s doctor might think the Mets should trade Wright.

by wobatus on Jun 26, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I really do love the way this team is now constructed

its great to watch, and i find myself pretty excited about the team.

Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?

by KeithsMoustache on Jun 26, 2010 11:24 AM EDT reply actions  

it comes out the same time as History of the World part II i guess

Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?

by KeithsMoustache on Jun 26, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think it comes out after Leonard, Part 6.

"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jun 26, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

I thought that was the reference

but I thought I just missed Part I as well. Oh and nice, happy writeup, I esp. liked this line “Really, though, as a fan, I want nothing more than to think the people in charge of my favorite teams are far more qualified to run them than I’d ever hope to be.” I think that sentiment gets lost on haters.

by Sokojoe on Jun 26, 2010 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well-written

as usual, and gracious. Love the home grown angle. I bet you won’t bury your Mets stuff even if they fall short this year.

by wobatus on Jun 26, 2010 12:30 PM EDT reply actions  

that santana trade was beautiful

stats, they are seriously never in Francoeur's favor

by astromets on Jun 26, 2010 1:22 PM EDT reply actions  

"misappropriation"?

Do you mean “misallocation” (of people to roles) or something like that?

by anonymous on Jun 26, 2010 2:37 PM EDT reply actions  

Yea

I meant misallocation.

by Sam Page on Jun 26, 2010 4:16 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

great piece, but this seems like a majorly false dichotomy
If this season is the peak of a slow-crescendoing player-development success story, I will forgive a lot. If the Mets fall short of the playoffs again, I’ll bury all my Mets stuff in the back yard and start watching the NFL network.

Couldn’t both these things be true? If the Mets are, as you’re highlighting here, getting pretty good at player development, but they are also (Omar’s fault or not) bad at roster construction and at constructing a supporting cast without big holes in it, then couldn’t they both be showing lots of signs of hope for the future and failing to be as good as they should be in the present?

by anonymous on Jun 26, 2010 3:01 PM EDT reply actions  

That's crazy talk

You don't cheer for the Mets. You drink for the Mets.

by Kevin H on Jun 26, 2010 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

That could be true...

If the Mets were good at player development. The current stalwarts were from the Philips era. And I haven’t seen Omar turn out too many OMG level prospects. Just a bunch of .253 hitters.

by MookieTheCat on Jun 27, 2010 1:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

There can be a lot of value in homegrown ".253 hitters"

(assuming by that you mean league-average-ish, or even replacement-level hitters). Not paying veterans millions to fill roster holes, while still getting decent non-star production on the cheap, is a vastly important function of a good farm system, and it allows the organization to spend more on stars in free agency. You can’t judge player development just by asking when the organization grew its last superstar.

by anonymous on Jun 27, 2010 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

this

paying minimum to have anyone other than tatis, gmj, cora… would have been better than paying them millions to be awful

stats, they are seriously never in Francoeur's favor

by astromets on Jun 27, 2010 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

yes

And the Mets’ farm system has been producing players that can fill (are filling!) those guys’ roles — Tejada, Ike, Carter. This is exactly the point I’m making; we shouldn’t let the bad roster construction and the overpayment of the aging veteran bench players obscure the fact that the organization is currently doing very well at producing useful role-players.

by anonymous on Jun 27, 2010 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

nick evans was willing to learn catcher for pete's sake!

that guy should not be in AA

stats, they are seriously never in Francoeur's favor

by astromets on Jun 28, 2010 12:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

It can't be possible that this is not a closed question:

“Whether or not Omar Minaya’s talents are best served as a General Manager—it’s an open question—”

No. No, it isn’t.

by Jack Str on Jun 26, 2010 9:43 PM EDT reply actions  

it is

when you consider firing him leaves our fate in the hands of the wilpons.

I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson

by Gina on Jun 26, 2010 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

I will never understand why everyone lost their shit when we traded Milledge.

I could understand being annoyed with the way they handled his development or the process, but after seeing Milledge in person I saw a “5 tool player” with 0 superlative tools. This = average player AT BEST, imo. Plus, the guy couldn’t hit the curve at all and never had great walk rates, which only led to my confusion with the obsession over Milledge.

"Seriously, Lana, call Kenny Loggins ‘cause you’re in the danger zone."

by keithprime on Jun 26, 2010 10:29 PM EDT reply actions  

because of who they traded him for

which was basically a package of poo. And when they traded him, after an injury riddled season which they rushed him back from because of major league holes.

I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson

by Gina on Jun 26, 2010 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Likewise.

I guess it’s easy for us to say from this vantage point, but at the same time he did put up OBPs in the 380s from 2004 to 2006 (43 BBs in 367 PAs in AAA at age 21 is excellent, btw), and he was an above average ML hitter at age 22 in his stint on the Mets in 2007.

I had no problem with trading him since he seemed to have real issues, and it’s amazing to me how often that matters, but he was a blue-chip trading piece, and to get Church and Schneider for him was a weak move on Minaya’s part.

by Jack Str on Jun 26, 2010 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Cf. Mets recent player development.

Jesus how much evidence does one need that they are not so good at it, when everyone went apeshit about Milledge?

by MookieTheCat on Jun 27, 2010 1:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

Allow me a good natured, long winded counter to Sam's post.

For all the talk about homegrown talent, the Mets are a remarkably mediocre team, one that has gotten phenomenally lucky. Minaya, bless his odd little heart, accidentally pulled two guys out of his ass who are both pitching like aces, or near enough.

In a very real sense the difference this year is all Tak and Dickey. The Mets are 10-3 in games they started, 11-2 total. Without those two the Mets are 30-28. Prorated, that puts them nowhere near even the wildcard lead. A team throws two afterthoughts, two middle relievers, into the starting rotation and, voila, the wildcard lead, no less.

What’s genuinely hilarious about this is how the Mets are succeeding despite Minaya’s (and Manuel’s) best efforts. Maine and Perez were brutal in spring training. Designating them both as members of the starting rotation when the damage they were likely to do could have been limited by having them pitch long out of the pen was obviously insane. They were nowhere near the top five starters the Mets could have run out there. Further, Manuel (and, presumably, Minaya, by fiat) could have limited the damage Perez did by skipping most of his starts, but he specifically put Pelfrey and Santana on five days rest in order to make sure Perez didn’t miss any turns. It was idiocy on a level that was only surpassed this year in the inanity sweepstakes by the Zambrano-to-the-bullpen nuttiness in Chicago.

Similarly, the madness with Matthews, Jacobs, and Catalanatto, with Minaya getting and Manuel playing guys who were clearly not major leaguers, and whose performance wasn’t merely subpar, but actually destructive.

So here we are, with the team a half game out. More credit to the players, who are succeeding despite Minaya’s, Manuel’s, and the Wilpons’ best efforts. Takahashi and Dickey are pitching very well. Their FIPS are good (xFIPS less so, but I’m unconvinced by its normalization of FB/HR rates), and whatever we think of Santana’s decline, that still means the Mets currently have five pitchers who are above average. Tie that to an average offense and you have a team that’s going to win a lot of games. Call it the Angels method.

As postscript, without adding a starter the rotation will start to fall apart in August. None of Niese, Takahashi, and Dickey have much experience pitching much over one hundred innings in a season. At least one of them is going to get hurt, come up with a dead arm, or become otherwise ineffective. Too, his injury has affected Santana’s abilities. It may have affected his durability as well.

I have no more faith now than I did during the remarkable offseason that the FO will add the right starter, let alone that it understands the genuine importance of adding one, but this club is delightfully impossible to predict. The only player injured since the start of the season is the first player we would have picked whose getting injured would be most likely to help the team. The team is playing in good luck as well as dumb, and sometimes that lasts a season.

p.s. I don’t think the standard counter to one of my arguments, that if you remove two good pitchers from ANY team that team’s record will suffer substantially, disproves my point that the Mets are succeeding through blind chance. The Mets intentionally went into the season with a rotation that was almost certainly doomed to fail. It did fail. The FO even DFA’ed their most obvious backup plan/sixth starter, and even THAT didn’t kill them. It was as if Omar had gotten hammered during a night at The Dunes and lost his entire bankroll. He then went outside, pulled his emergency stash of bills out of his money belt, giggled madly, tore the stash to pieces and threw it into the air. Then he flagged down a cab, got in, and found an enormous wad of thousand dollar bills wedged down behind the seat.

I wouldn’t count on that run of luck continuing, much as I’d like it to do so.

by Jack Str on Jun 27, 2010 1:38 AM EDT reply actions  

This...

And my post below was being written when you posted this, so I’m glad our late night rants were consistent.

by MookieTheCat on Jun 27, 2010 1:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

Ok, here's a review before reading the other comments...

I am a lawyer, and a joke among lawyers—which is funny mostly because of its truth—is that lawyers went to law school to avoid math. Putting a lawyer in charge of mathematicians is kind of like putting, well, damn, I can’t think of a more ridiculous analogy to the concept of putting a lawyer before mathematicians (maybe putting Corky from Life Goes On in charge of the National Academy of Sciences).

Second, I think that it’s clear that although Omar didn’t dump the farm, he was supposedly renowned for being able to spot prospects, and the farm system isn’t nearly as complete as one would hope it would be. This is especially so with last year’s $150 million rebuilding year. What success we’ve had this year is a mix of certain players playing slightly under expectation and others playing beyond who were thrown into a situation by circumstance and not plan (if someone had told you our starting lineup would include Dickey, Neise and Tak in June, would you have renewed your season tickets?). So I question your idea that he is a renowned scout. Buying established players on the decline seems the opposite.

And I know you’re trying to be positive, and I’m not attacking you. But we’re not a small-market team. We’re a big fat New York everyone hates us because we have money market team. I love homegrown talent, both for the efficiencies it presents and for some sort of moralistic view on how baseball should take place. But we have a very thin minor league system at present, period. I know people can point to this one and that one, but there have been some very lucky surprises. The 35 year old knuckleballer is one of our top starters? That’s like an accordion player winning American Idol. We have recently cleaned up against awful teams, and even have won some series against good teams. But let’s not get ahead of ourselves. Can we beat the Braves and Phillies consistently? I’m not so sure. And supposing we face injuries beyond what we have? I’m very doubtful that we have call-ups to adequately fill the roles. We’re a team on thin ice that has held recently, but the heat of summer tends to melt ice.

by MookieTheCat on Jun 27, 2010 1:48 AM EDT reply actions  

im not really sure why buying players on the decline is really the opposite of scouting

scouts are asked to evaluate talent. not put a dollar amount too it. And the thin system is likely due to a combination of lack of funds and the building of the academies.

I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson

by Gina on Jun 27, 2010 2:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

All I have to say is this...

http://www.amazinavenue.com/2010/6/26/1537044/mets-daily-farm-system-report-6-25

Depressing read. And for once I disagree with everything you say. Evaluating talent is exactly the opposite of buying players on the decline. It’s finding the cheap investment turning good, not finding the WorldComs of the baseball world. And although I support building academies, that and a token gets you on the subway. Building academies should have the eventual purpose of building a robust farm system, not a thin one. I’d rather take the guy out of the U of Arizona who can play rather than sink the entire effort into 14 year olds who are unproven.

by MookieTheCat on Jun 27, 2010 2:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

endy chavez?

fernando tatis? jose valentine? We’ve found more than our fair share of cheap talent.

Also do you understand the financial difference between IFA’s and college picks? Matt Harvey is going to cost us millions, Jenrry Meija cost us 16,000. You can sign about 100 IFA’s for the same price you can pay for a first round draft pick, or even a second rounder. And with prospects quantity is generally better, since the majority have little chance of making it bringing in hoards makes it easier to fine one that will rather than sinking all your cash and hopes into one expensive college pick (or a prep player who probably isn’t less raw than the 16 year old IFA). The teams with the best farm systems in the majors, Rangers, A’s, Red Sox etc, pour money into the international markets.

I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson

by Gina on Jun 27, 2010 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Also wouldn't the 35 year old knuckleballer

fall under cheap investments?

I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson

by Gina on Jun 27, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

Priceless:

" The 35 year old knuckleballer is one of our top starters? That’s like an accordion player winning American Idol."

by Jack Str on Jun 27, 2010 3:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

it would probably be the first time american idol actually recognized someone talented

Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?

by KeithsMoustache on Jun 27, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

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