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What's A Fair Deal For Cliff Lee?

Described as everything from "front-runners" to "contenders" to "inquiring," the Mets clearly have some level of interest in trading for Mariners' lefty Cliff Lee before the July 31st trade deadline. The Mets have the payroll space to absorb Lee's small $5 million dollar prorated salary, the need for him with Takahashi an uncertain quantity, and the motivation, both in desire to return to the playoffs and interest in signing Lee this offseason.

For his part, Lee has been arguably the best pitcher in baseball, behind maybe only Roy Halladay and Tim Lincecum, since miraculously turning his career around in 2008 with the Indians. This season has been his best yet, with a 1.97 FIP, and a winning record despite playing for what may go down as the worst offensive team since the Deadball Era. Despite missing the first month of the season, he has the fourth highest pitcher-WAR in baseball. He has walked 5 batters in 12 games. Which brings us to our big question: is he any good?

Lee's Value to the Mariners/Other Teams

Since the Mariners are bad Lee's value to them is two compensatory draft picks. Leading 6orgoligist, Dave Cameron, made a nice estimate of his total trade value in the abstract, which includes the 2 compensatory picks and the estimated 3.5 wins he'll give his new team down the stretch.  3.5x5=~18 plus an estimated $3 million in value per compensatory pick equals $20-$26 million. Minus his salary, we get Cameron's estimate of $15-20 million dollars on the open market.

Lee's Value to the Mets

Using Cameron's estimate as the starting point, Cliff Lee is likely more valuable to the Mets than other contenders. For one thing, the move to the National League and Citi Field probably allows us to estimate his rest-of-season worth closer to 4-4.5 wins.

The Mets are also arguably facing the most pressure in the majors to make the playoffs.  Of the teams with a significant  chance of the making the playoffs that aren't locks (~30%-70% playoff odds), the Mets seemingly have the least secure management situation and definitely have the highest payroll. 

Think a 3-5 win improvement is inconsequential? (I know you don't, you're a Mets fan). According to the Baseball Prospectus postseason odds report, the Mets have a 43% chance to making the playoffs currently. The Phillies could be screwed, which would help some, but the Mets are still no better than a 50-50 chance of making the playoffs at this point. Also according to those BP reports, the most likely outcome for the season is thus:

Star-divide

NO LEE W L GB
Braves 92 70 -
Mets 89 73 3

 

I'm not going to run any simulations with Lee in the rotation, but to drive home the importance of 3 wins anyway, a possible world with Lee:

OH WOW LEE W L GB
Mets 92 70 -
Braves 91 71 1

 

The Mets Need For Lee

Ostensibly, the Mets rotation corrected itself with Perez and Maine gone, but Takahashi's recent outings are disconcerting. I'm all for moving him back to the bullpen and letting Dickey play fifth starter/swing man.

In a related note, someone seriously needs to inform Jerry Manuel that he can't break Dickey's arm, as he has no relevant ligaments in his pitching elbow, which barely even moves in his delivery anyway. Not only can Jerry leave him in past the fifth inning, but he can pitch the next day, if someone gets hurt! 

Lee solves problems in the front-end of the rotation, too. Pelfrey and Santana have been pretty lucky so far, and it's better not to gamble on that luck continuing. While good pitchers may be able to keep their ERA's lower than the peripherals would suggest, Santana needs to start striking out more batters or hope we bring back Endy to catch the homeruns he's soon to give up. Pelfrey, on the other hand, is not doing anything differently this season, other than striking out a few more batters. Cliff Lee gives the Mets an ace in a rotation of #2-#3-type starters. 

He helps the bullpen too! Lee has pitched 5 complete games in 12 starts so far. He's also gone 8 innings three times and has pitched no less than 6.1 innings in a start this season. If Jerry let's Dickey pitch, the Mets could be dealing consecutive complete games regularly down the stretch, a nice respit for Fernando Nieve, who, turns out, really sucks.

A Potential Package

The following players do not make sense to trade for Cliff Lee:

  • Angel Pagan--He's a starter on this team and any other and has more future value than Cliff Lee.
  • Jenrry Mejia--He throws that Mo-cutter. He's the best prospect we've had in a long while, he's not getting traded for a rental.
  • Jon Niese--A good pitcher already in the rotation, trading Niese for Lee would negate much of the present value Lee provides, while being a huge loss of future value. 

Cameron estimated $15-$20 million, which equals, in his words:

What does that look like in terms of prospects? According to the values Wang came up with, that's a hitting prospect in the 25-75 range or a top 10 pitching prospect, plus maybe another lesser piece or two in order to win the bidding. Historically, that is basically what we see. The Indians obtained Matt LaPorta and change for CC Sabathia two years ago. The A's got Brett Wallace and change for Matt Holliday last year. That is basically the established return for a rent-a-star.

The only hitting prospects the Mets had in the 25-75 range before the season were Fernando Martinez, Ike Davis and sometimes Wilmer Flores. Wilmer can probably be upgraded to "definitely" in that range, as he's finally hitting and earning promotions. Ike obviously can't be traded, as is. Reese Havens might also qualify now, but he's got the same injury-prone tag as Fernando. All considered, the Mets have 3 very good hitting prospects, but for various reasons, none of a LaPorta/Wallace caliber.

To mitigate the lack of a truly great hitting prospect, a fair trade would likely be one player from pool A, one from pool B, and one from pool C, below:

Pool A

  • Wilmer Flores
  • Fernando Martinez
  • Reese Havens

Pool B

Pool C

Because the Mariners have an organizational need for an offense-first catcher, a package of Thole and any player in pool A might be enough. And obviously, the players in each pool don't have exactly the same value, but hopefully this exercise gives a general idea.

My Sane Proposal Idea

Martinez, Thole, Evans, and Niesen for Lee

My Insane Proposal Idea

Mets send: Ike Davis, Wilmer Flores, Jeurys Familia, Josh Thole, Brad Holt

Mets receive: Prince Fielder, Cliff Lee

Brewers send: Prince Fielder, Mat Gamel, Zach Braddock

Brewers receive: Ike Davis, Jeurys Familia, Brad Holt, Wilmer Flores

Mariners send: Cliff Lee

Mariners receive: Josh Thole, Mat Gamel, Zach Braddock

My Rooting Interest

I strongly hope the Mets trade for Cliff Lee without trading Havens or Mejia. I understand the neurotic need to hoard prospects in the Wins Above Replacement, Evan Longoria contract-era, but Havens and Mejia seem like the only two prospects with significant futures on this team. Fernando Martinez is made expendable both by Pagan's breakout and his continued fragility. Thole is nice, but he's not the next Mike Piazza, and the Mets can easily go year-to-year with Barajas-type veterans without losing much value. Besides, young catchers with offensive ability are often given up on and freely available, like George Kottaras and Kelly Shoppach this past offseason. 

Ultimately, prospects are meant to be traded. Every year the Mets miss the playoffs, with Reyes and Wright in their prime, is a wasted year. However good you think your two favorite prospects are, they're likely never going to be as good as Reyes and Wright are now. For that reason, I wouldn't really be that mad with Havens going for Lee either. 

Cliff Lee could be as important to the Mets this season as any deadline pick up ever, including that jabroni Rick Sutcliffe. Losing the division to the Braves because we didn't have the guts to do what they did all those years they beat up on us would be pretty sickening. Most importantly, all Phillies fans will be able to think of is "what could have been...".

The Future

I wouldn't mind signing Cliff Lee to Johan's contract. If the Mets plan to sign him this offseason anyway, they should demand a negotiating window. He's worth the money. We can worry about next season this offseason, though. He's worth it either way.

Comment 109 comments  |  3 recs  | 

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Cliff Lee could be as important to the Mets this season as any deadline pick up ever, including that jabroni Rick Sutcliffe. Losing the division to the Braves because we didn’t have the guts to do what they did all those years they beat up on us would be pretty sickening.

That is exactly right. Name one blockbuster deadline deal the Mets have made, ever — where we end up acquiring the star, that is.

The best I could come up with is Kenny Rogers in 1999. That’s pathetic.

We have a unique opportunity to pull a trade like Sabathia to MIL, Randy Johnson to HOU, or to drive the point home, Cliff Lee to PHI or David Cone to TOR. I agree that we shouldn’t part with Mejia, but all other prospects should be considered.

by Dan Lewis on Jul 1, 2010 7:02 AM EDT reply actions  

Closest the Mets have come is Piazza I think

It wasn’t a deadline deal, but it was completed midseason.

And I do agree with Sam Page’s point here. I think the “prospect treatment” pendulum has swung too far to the “hoarding” side, when there are situations where adding a big-time player is the correct play. With the Phillies’ injuries, I think this might be one of those years.

My only question is about Prince Fielder. Why that part of the deal? I just don’t see that as a huge upgrade, particularly when defense is considered (not to mention service time).

by sjohnson125 on Jul 1, 2010 7:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

Keith

That’s when the deadline was earlier, and that was during a season when the Mets were not contenders. Other than that though, you’re right.

Of course the other side of that is how many times does the big blockbuster actually propel the team to a championship? Sounds like an interesting topic for a future post . . .

by dcmetsfan on Jul 1, 2010 8:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

Juan Samuel (a cautionary tale)

A joke now, but the Mets clearly thought they were getting a star to catapult them back to first. Then they traded for Viola later that season. End result: no playoffs, and Samuel+Viola (admitting that Viola was decent down the stretch in ’89 and excellent in ’90) for Dykstra, McDowell, Rick Aguilera, and Kevin Tapani (plus David West, the big trading chip in the Viola deal, who amounted to nothing).

Ouch.

by hankwebb on Jul 1, 2010 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Viola deal wasn't that bad at the time

Didn’t we trade Keith Miller too? Or was he in on the Saberhagen deal?

Samuel deal was bad at the time and even worse in hindsight.

by FrancoTAU on Jul 1, 2010 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly

The Viola deal was good. Had we not made the (idiotic) Samuel deal, it may have worked out for us.

by Dan Lewis on Jul 1, 2010 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Have to admit I thought the Viola deal at the time was a smart one.

Frankie Vi looked like an ace, and it looked like what the Mets needed more than anything was one more top pitcher to turn them into a juggernaut. It looked like West just didn’t have the numbers to support his rep, but I missed on how good Aguilera was going to be as a closer, and Tapani was incredibly durable for the Twins.

Samuel was a mistake. He was that decade’s Francouer for the Mets.

by Jack Str on Jul 2, 2010 3:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

what?

you don’t think Victor Zambrano was the most important deadline player we’ve acquired the past decade?

by secret defense on Jul 1, 2010 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

i think he was the most important

in a bad way

I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson

by Gina on Jul 1, 2010 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

The M's don't want Pagan, anyway.

They’re not that desperate for an OF, and Pagan is arb-eligible next year, which means he will cost $$$ to retain. I’m also not sure Flores (or for that matter, Mejia) is close enough to MLB ready for their tastes, though if Thole is the “B” piece, that might fly.

by Andee on Jul 1, 2010 7:29 AM EDT reply actions  

That's Thole.

Don’t see why a team that wasn’t desperate wouldn’t have him work on his defense in AAA for 2011 and keep from starting his service time clock.

by Jack Str on Jul 2, 2010 3:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

looking at the M's needs

They just picked up Branyan for 1B/DH.

Kotchman has beena bust at 1B and Milton Bradley has been DH/OF. that leave Ichiro and Gutierrez as the other 2 OF. 3b Lopez has been disappointing. SS the 2 Wilsons have an OPS under .700

Figgins is finally coming around.

I would say they need a lot of help the only guys filling spots adequately are
CF, RF, 2B, DH/1B in Branyan and Bradley OF/DH

but they do have SP in Lee, Felix, Fister, Vargas

this is what I would look at

They will need a SP to replace Lee, plus they could use a 3B/1B, SS and relief depth

I would look at sending them 2 of the following Valdes (pitched some nice games), Acosta, Stoner, Misch.
maybe one of are guys from the Gnats that is not named Calhoon or Moore.
See if they want either 1B Nick Evans or 3B/1B Hessman.
2 of the following OF F-Mart, SS Flores, C Barajas. throw in Maine or Perez if they wil take them.

I think Thole is ready to hit at the big league level, and Blanco can handle tutoring him.
F-Mart is never going to be in our OF
Nick Evans is a very good hitter and needs a team to play for, Hessman has the big numbers but his injury may hurt moving him for anyone quality..
Flores is very good but Reyes is not going anywhere.
And all those minor league pitchers have put up some good stats this season. Of course if Beltran is healthy we could send Frenchy.

by Rickfansince76 on Jul 1, 2010 7:43 AM EDT reply actions  

Flores

isn’t going to be a shortstop at the big-league level.

by METSMETSMETS on Jul 1, 2010 7:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

Thole

reminds me way too much of Jason Kendall at the dish for me to want to trade him for a rental.

I’d package Martinez OR Havens at the top without missing either too much, but after that I’d go Captain Kirk and Kyle Allen, and Evans isn’t a bad fourth guy because the Mariners are pretty weak in the hitting department overall. I’d imagine they’d want Havens over Martinez, and I think that works better for both teams.

by METSMETSMETS on Jul 1, 2010 7:53 AM EDT reply actions  

A couple points

I think Cameron’s analysis is wrong. I Think the best way to look at Lee’s value is what we would pay him as a FA less his salary. See this article.

http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2007/11/baseball_tradin_1.php

I think the Mets would pay $15 million today for half a season of Lee. He is owed $5 million, ergo value of around $10.

To the Mariners, Lee has de minimis value. They are on the hook for $5 million this year, and if Lee were a free agent at this point, I don’t think they would offer him much of anything. The picks are nice, but factor in signability and are worth far less than a known commodity. The Mets apparent need doesn’t mean the Mets have to pay full price also. Deals are made when we offer more value for Lee than he is worth to the Mariners when compared to other offers. (I also don’t buy that Ramos is such a better prospect than Thole. He has worse numbers, and no-one is more blocked by organizational depth).

As a result, I think the trade is possible without Mejia, FMart, Havens or Flores.

I would do a package of Thole, Nieuwenheis or Tejada and a pitcher like Familia, Niesen, Holt or whomever the Mariners want not named Mejia and not on the ML roster.

If I trade FMart, I want Haren or someone else with a below market contract and significant equity in the deal.

by goquakers on Jul 1, 2010 8:03 AM EDT reply actions  

Why not give them a pitcher on the ML roster?

After all, you have to make room for Takahashi in the bullpen. So why not dangle Parnell, Nieve or Igarashi? M’s may insist on prospects with more upside, but it’s worth offering.

by madisonmetsfan on Jul 1, 2010 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

well because no one wants nieve or iggy

and because if we probably can’t afford to give up a bp arm that we might actually use to get him.

I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson

by Gina on Jul 1, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

you know I kind of forgot

that he is a FA at the en dof the season, so it may be a lot less of a deal to get him

by Rickfansince76 on Jul 1, 2010 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I still think

we can live with Ted Lilly.

How about an Orange Monster at Citi Field for Bay?

by Mets-Suns-Texans on Jul 1, 2010 9:00 AM EDT reply actions  

well we are used to it by now

Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?

by KeithsMoustache on Jul 1, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

or why does he think we'd be assured to not make it if we get Lily

I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson

by Gina on Jul 1, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

i think lily would be fine

but the cubs will ask a lot anyway

stats, they are seriously never in Francoeur's favor

by astromets on Jul 1, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

agree

Every year the Mets miss the playoffs, with Reyes and Wright in their prime, is a wasted year. However good you think your two favorite prospects are, they’re likely never going to be as good as Reyes and Wright are now.

Personally, I would take Thole off the table.

by hotspur on Jul 1, 2010 9:07 AM EDT reply actions  

Disagree

You can’t run an organization assuming you’re going for broke every year. When Reyes and Wright were coming up, the team easily could have said “your favorite prospect will never be as good as Mike Piazza” and justified trading them. (and they damn near did.) And it’s not like Wright and Reyes are in their thirties. If the injuries don’t happen, maybe we’re trading Ike last year? It takes an entire roster to win, and it takes a pipeline to win consistently.

THAT SAID, given what Lee is (top five starter in baseball), I think Sam’s “sane” proposal makes sense.

by tmu on Jul 1, 2010 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Don't be so sure that Ike is all that valuable.

Over his last 200 PAs he’s hit worse than Danny Murphy did the year Murphy was considered a failure at 1B. Other than 35 PAs at AAA Davis never had an MLE OPS higher than 713. I want him to succeed, he has plenty of time, and the Mets have no one pushing him, but it’s realistic to think Davis’s upside is average ML regular, and that he may never hit enough to hold the position.

by Jack Str on Jul 2, 2010 4:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

tinski

Fernando Martinez Reuben Tejada and Kyle Allen and Mike Antoninni for Lee should be able to get the deal done. The mariners get 2 players that can contribute next year (Tejada and Martinez). Antoninni should be a good loogy for the pen and Allen is a decent pitching prospect that is 2-3 years away. It is much better than 2 draft picks.

by tinski on Jul 1, 2010 9:22 AM EDT reply actions  

fits the pattern

Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?

by KeithsMoustache on Jul 1, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well done, Sam

I agree with this almost in its entirety, except for one point:

“However good you think your two favorite prospects are, they’re likely never going to be as good as Reyes and Wright are now.”

The same thing could have been said back in 2001 & 2002 “However good you think your two favorite prospects are, they’re likely never going to be as good as Piazza and Alfonzo are now” – of course, those prospects ended up being Reyes & Wright (and Heilman and Kazmir).

Obviously, trading Reyes or Wright for, say, Randy Johnson would have absolutely been worth it had Johnson pushed us over the top in ‘99 or 2000 (I know the years don’t add up perfectly, bc Reyes and Wright weren’t in the system when the RJ trade happened, but play with me a little here), but it’s just something to consider. If you trade Flores for Lee, the Mets miss the playoffs (again), and Flores turns into Miggy Cabrera 2.0, it’s gonna be painful for years to come.

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Jul 1, 2010 9:51 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

this

Shite — I wish I had read this before posting. I agree 100% (obviously.)

by tmu on Jul 1, 2010 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Unintentionally Sexual Post of the Day:

“…play with me a little here…”
- cjmulrain

"Seriously, Lana, call Kenny Loggins ‘cause you’re in the danger zone."

by keithprime on Jul 1, 2010 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not saying they can't be

I’m just saying it’s unlikely. It was also unlikely Reyes ever became so disciplined and Wright developed such power.

by Sam Page on Jul 1, 2010 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah but I don't think anyone's expecting these guys to become 5-7 war players

im praying for some 1.5-3 WAR ones.

I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson

by Gina on Jul 1, 2010 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's also unlikely

Lee brings us a championship. It just increases our chances of getting a roll of the dice in the playoff crapshoot, and a lot has to happen for even that to come to pass. I also disagree with the notion that we’re wasting Reyes and Wright’s prime years. The window may be closing for a team led by Chase Utley, but Wright and Reyes should be effective at least for another few years.

by tmu on Jul 1, 2010 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well most players absolutely peak between 27-28

so they may be effective but they won’t be as good. And while the play-offs are a crapshoot strong starting pitcher, and weak competition, is usually a pretty good way to get there.

Unfortunately even after acquiring Lee we’d have a pretty shaky play-off rotation, luckily so would everyone else though.

I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson

by Gina on Jul 1, 2010 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

well no but I'd be money he's not going to put up better back to back seasons ever

than he did in 07/08

I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson

by Gina on Jul 1, 2010 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's the part where we're going to be paying them market value that's going to hurt like hell.

I would absolutely overpay for Lee. What people are forgetting is that the Mets are horribly, horribly handicapped by their FO. The FO farting around with the roster is what cost the Mets the division in 2007 and 2008. With the Mets core those races should never have been close enough to lose.

Exactly the same thing is happening in 2010. This is a team that should be several games ahead of the Braves, but handicapped by the worst manager in the majors and an incompetent GM, we’re not. The Mets will have to be substantially better than other teams to overcome their manager and FO just to squeak into the postseason. Since the handicap is so substantial that means trading Havens, Thole, and one or two more legitimate prospects for a guy like Lee in a year when you actually have a chance to win it all.

Someone mentioned the postseason is a crapshoot. It’s not. It follows the odds of a 5 or 7 games series, where the better teams have better chances of winning. Lee improves substantially both the Mets chances of getting to the postseason, and their chances of winning it all once they do get there.

by Jack Str on Jul 2, 2010 4:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

One more thing

How come acquiring Lee makes the Braves a game worse? Is it assuming that with the Mets being 3 games better, one of those “wins” will come at the expense of the Braves? I didn’t think that was how the projection systems worked…

Or was that just a clerical error?

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Jul 1, 2010 9:53 AM EDT reply actions  

Sam, you raise a point that makes me wonder if we are really Cliff Lee away from being a 92-win team. Namely, Johan and Pelf have been quite lucky and that is unlikely to continue. It’s also been noted here that the bullpen has had great fortune in stranding so many of the batters they’ve walked. Does the 89-win projection allow for this, sans Lee?

formerly known around these parts as nycbroncosfan

by Douglas A. Lee on Jul 1, 2010 10:29 AM EDT reply actions  

I like the proposal, but will the Ms?

Josh Thole is a nice little prospect, but he reminds me of Mark Johnson, an ex-Met who was a light-hitting left-handed catcher with decent plate discipline.

I am all for trading F-Mart, I doubt he will be ina Mets uniform in 2011 anyway, unless injuries ravage everyone there. should have dealt Mr. Martinez when he had more value.

the Mets should keep Ruben Tejada….I don’t want to see Luis Castillo roaming second base ever again in a Mets’ uniform.

Fernando Nieve sucks, not even the Astros wanted him…why would the M’s? The Mets could always return them Sean Green…sarcasm

uhm, didn’t the JJ. Putz deal count as a “blockbuster” in 2009?

maybe Omar can send them Ollie and convince the M’s he’s fixed? hahaha!

"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"

by feslenraster on Jul 1, 2010 12:08 PM EDT reply actions  

sean green

what happened to him

"The one thing you don't want to do is hit a home run. That's a rally-killer." -Jeff Francoeur

by RangersandMets on Jul 1, 2010 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

He's beginning

a rehab assignment next week

"I want to win now, not 3 years from now. That's my stance." - Kevin Burkhardt

by Brian. on Jul 2, 2010 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

Very well written article.

As one of the board’s few Mets-Mariners fans, this is a rare chance to improve both clubs with stroke. The Mariners are so bad offensively that virtually anybody will help them at any field position except RF.

My insane trade is Lee and Ichiro for the entire Mets farm system. :-)

by Kepler on Jul 1, 2010 12:51 PM EDT reply actions  

I would be willing

to send Pagan, Frenchy, Neise, F-mart, Havens, Mejia plus some lower prospects for those 2

by Rickfansince76 on Jul 1, 2010 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

what

I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson

by Gina on Jul 1, 2010 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

*one stroke

Improving the Mets with a stroke could also be done, of course…

by Kepler on Jul 1, 2010 12:52 PM EDT reply actions  

if this happens

him crushing the phillies in laughable fashion will make it worth while

and…playoffs.

/cue jim mora

I hate Philadelphia so much.

by the caveman on Jul 1, 2010 1:08 PM EDT reply actions  

I think that trade is perfectly reasonable

nick evans and mike carp will be reunited, maybe we can throw in murphy as well?

I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson

by Gina on Jul 1, 2010 1:45 PM EDT reply actions  

Murphy too?

Will you be able to pull off a long-distance relationship?

"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez

by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jul 1, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm still confused why Cliff Lee was traded for so little the last 2 times

And now with just half a year left, all of baseball is going to be throwing stud prospects for him? I think most GMs are prone to hoarding at this point and getting anything more than 2 B prospects is wishful thinking on the M’s part.

Also, the draft picks for Cliff Lee wont be as valuable since it’s most likely the Yanks sign him. It’s supposed to be a good draft class, but getting pick #30 isn’t likely to replace a big prospect traded.

by FrancoTAU on Jul 1, 2010 2:12 PM EDT reply actions  

It's a good question

I’m not sure why Mark Shapiro couldn’t get more for Cliff Lee, especially considering that he’s the same guy who got Carlos Santana in the Casey Blake deal. I would guess it was a combination of Shapiro being under pressure to shed payroll (the Indians have been losing a ton of money) & realizing the Indians were not going to contend in 2010.

I would attribute the lack of stud prospects the Mariners gave up for Lee to the Phillies being in a rush to clear payroll & replenish their farm system to make the Halladay trade happen, as well as to Ruben Amaro just not being a good GM.

by PeterFH on Jul 1, 2010 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Takes Two to Tango

You’re not always going to be trading with the Brian Sabeans of the world.

"Seriously, Lana, call Kenny Loggins ‘cause you’re in the danger zone."

by keithprime on Jul 1, 2010 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah but Shapiro was trading with Amaro

who might be worst

I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson

by Gina on Jul 1, 2010 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

You also need to be trading with an Org w/ good prospects.

I never thought the Phils had that strong of a system. However, he probably should have insisted on Taylor.

"Seriously, Lana, call Kenny Loggins ‘cause you’re in the danger zone."

by keithprime on Jul 1, 2010 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

or drabek

"The one thing you don't want to do is hit a home run. That's a rally-killer." -Jeff Francoeur

by RangersandMets on Jul 1, 2010 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I imagine they took quantity over quality

on the idea that with quantity you’re more likely to get 1-2 at least decent players eventually where as if you take back one big impact player if that player flames out (see Matt Laporta and the Sabathia trade) you’re basically left with nothing. It’s the same thing the Pirates have down with most of their trade, rather than trying to get one big name prospect they try to get a bunch of B-C+ guys to limit the risk and get some sort of impact back quickly.

I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson

by Gina on Jul 1, 2010 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

if what you say is true

i would in a heartbeat do Havens, Holt (is he really still a B? I find this hard to believe), Rustich and Allen

stats, they are seriously never in Francoeur's favor

by astromets on Jul 1, 2010 2:16 PM EDT reply actions  

that maybe too much pitching so evans too or in place of one

that guys never getting a fair chance around the mets again it seems

stats, they are seriously never in Francoeur's favor

by astromets on Jul 1, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

i disagree on what you say about veteran catchers

we cant rely on barajas again next year, we might not even get much more out of him this year. getting a new, aging catcher every year for a few million seems like we are setting ourselves up for below average production from catcher year after year. and i dont know that other catchers will create the same rapport with pitchers as barajas has so quickly – look at brian schneider. in thole we have a guy who can become the majority catcher next year and take on more responsibility incrementally after that while being cost controlled for like 6 seasons, while likely able to keep up a better than average OBP for a catcher and a good amount of doubles. Also, the Mariners have Adam Moore, who seems like a solid catching prospect, so why do they need another one?

stats, they are seriously never in Francoeur's favor

by astromets on Jul 1, 2010 2:29 PM EDT reply actions  

Moore is 26 and still can't supplant Rob Johnson, the worst catcher in the majors

Here’s the catchers available next year, I’ve bolded the attractive options:

Brad Ausmus (42) – mutual option for $1MM with a $150K buyout
Rod Barajas (35)
Josh Bard (33)
Henry Blanco (39)
John Buck (30)
Ramon Castro (35) – club option
Raul Chavez (38)
Toby Hall (35)
Ramon Hernandez (35) – option vests with 120 games played
Gerald Laird (31)
Jason LaRue (37)
Victor Martinez (32)
Chad Moeller (36)
Bengie Molina (36)
Jose Molina (36) – $1.2MM club option
Miguel Olivo (32) – $2.5MM club option with a $500K buyout
A.J. Pierzynski (34)
Mike Redmond (40)
Mike Rivera (34)
David Ross (34)
Yorvit Torrealba (32) – $3.5MM mutual option with a $500K buyout
Jason Varitek (39)
Gregg Zaun (40) – $2.25MM club option with a $250K buyout

by Sam Page on Jul 1, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

victor seems out of the question

ross and blanco are backups. olivo probably gets that option picked up. i was rather opposed to zaun last year and at 40 seems way too old to be counted on. of the non-bolded, not seem good enough to be starters, i don’t really like pierzynski but he would be the closest. that leaves laird, who is way below average offensively even by catcher standards; he was acceptable in 2006 but terrible since – .248 wOBA this year

stats, they are seriously never in Francoeur's favor

by astromets on Jul 1, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

i guess john buck has shown to be an alright catcher

dont know much about his D

stats, they are seriously never in Francoeur's favor

by astromets on Jul 1, 2010 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

his walk and k rates are actually something awful

stats, they are seriously never in Francoeur's favor

by astromets on Jul 1, 2010 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

blanco's also expected to retire as well isn't he?

so we’ve got two retirees, a dh, a club option that has almost no chance of not being picked up and laird.

I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson

by Gina on Jul 1, 2010 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

meh

I still don’t think it will be that hard to find a catcher. There probably going to be minor league free agents that would be perfectly capable.

by Sam Page on Jul 1, 2010 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

excellent piece

We likely all have our favorite prospects we don’t want to give up on, but we gotta give up something, i think. Havens would hurt because, if healthy, he’s right there. I could see giving up Mejia, but he could be special relatively soon. Flores is far enough away that I could see him as the centerpiece.

And getting a first round pick and a supplemental should ease the sting of losing a Flores.

I like the sane proposal best. Think Thole could be a young Jason Kendall part 2 (JK used to be more than ok), and still like the lower sans strikeouts a young F! at times displayed, but if that gets it done, I’d do it. hell, evans is better than the 1Bs they were going with prior to their reacquisition of Branyan (and what the hell was THAT about).

by wobatus on Jul 1, 2010 3:45 PM EDT reply actions  

the thing about havens for me

all this injury time has to be slowing development somewhat. and its not like his defense is supposed to be above Uggla level

stats, they are seriously never in Francoeur's favor

by astromets on Jul 1, 2010 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

um what?

yes it is

I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson

by Gina on Jul 1, 2010 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

lol

he’s was a shortstop in the SEC. If he can’t play better than Uggla at 2B, nothing is right in the world

by Sam Page on Jul 1, 2010 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

A statue of Uggla

would play as well as Uggla. I’m surprised pigeons don’t crap on him when he’s standing out there.

by tmu on Jul 1, 2010 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

He's not going to win a Gold Glove

But a lot of what I hear is that he’s averagish with the D. We should be so lucky if he turns out to be Uggla with a little less power and a decent glove.

by FrancoTAU on Jul 1, 2010 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

He was supposed to be plus at 2nd base defensively when we drafted him.

If his leg injuries dropped that to average, that’s still good considering his bat.

John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.

by squid92 on Jul 2, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

power

not lower (re: F!).

by wobatus on Jul 1, 2010 3:45 PM EDT reply actions  

damn

reply fail on a correction.

by wobatus on Jul 1, 2010 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well reasoned and even tempered article, Sam

I vote to send F!, Thole, Holt/Familia, and Allen/Niesen.

Like others have said above, Pagan has mitigated the need for F!, plus I am starting to question whether he will ever stay healthy. I’m also beginning to fear he will be Lastings 2.0 where we hold onto him too long before his value drops out. Holt/Familia will essentially be replaced by Matt Harvey (Birdman.) Plus, if we’re going to have a rotation of Lee, pelfrey, Johan, Niese, and Mejia (presumably) going forward (2012 and beyond), I think we can afford to take advantage of the sudden pitching surplus.

Allen/Niesen are basically trade filler to me, as I subscribe to TINSTAAP and these guys are too far away for me to worry about dealing them.

Thole I know is a fan favorite around these parts but I don’t think his stick is going to be good enough to put up with his defense. I’m sure the reports are glowing about how much he has improved, but I seriously doubt his defense is all that good. I’ve really enjoyed having two strong defensive catchers this season and wouldn’t mind seeing the team continue their approach from this season while they explore better options. Personally, I would be all for signing Laird to a team friendly deal.

In short, let’s cash in on F!, Thole, and Holt while we can.

"Seriously, Lana, call Kenny Loggins ‘cause you’re in the danger zone."

by keithprime on Jul 1, 2010 6:40 PM EDT reply actions  

Addendum

If they were interested in Evans or Murphy instead of Allen/Niesen I would be fine with that as well.

"Seriously, Lana, call Kenny Loggins ‘cause you’re in the danger zone."

by keithprime on Jul 1, 2010 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Would they really want Holt?

He’s been bad this season and IIRC was sent back to A-ball.

"I want to win now, not 3 years from now. That's my stance." - Kevin Burkhardt

by Brian. on Jul 1, 2010 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

this is just nitpicking

but I don’t really think Holt/Familia are near the same value.

I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson

by Gina on Jul 1, 2010 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm just saying it wouldn't bother me to lose either.

"Seriously, Lana, call Kenny Loggins ‘cause you’re in the danger zone."

by keithprime on Jul 1, 2010 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

actually I think we should retain F-mart

just because I want to have a really awesome player named Jesus one day.

I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson

by Gina on Jul 1, 2010 8:56 PM EDT reply actions  

The Mets are simply NOT going to sign Lee to an extension.

They owe $119m for nine players in 2011. Pelfrey will get around $5m in arb, Francouer will get around $7m, and Pagan is likely to get at least $5m, and should get more. That’s $136m or more for 12 players. Lee will get top dollar, at least $23m for a true ace. That’s $159m for 13 players. Even keeping the remaining salaries as close to the minimum as is feasible gets the payroll up around $170 million.

It’s fun to dream, but who really thinks the Mets payroll in 2011 is going to be anywhere near one hundred and seventy million dollars?

by Jack Str on Jul 2, 2010 3:41 AM EDT reply actions  

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