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Around SBN: The End Of Sabanball: Details, Barbarians, And Precision

Mets 3, Braves 0: Santana Dominant Again

This was kind of an important game for the Mets. If they lost, the Braves would have extended their NL East lead to six games. A win would bring them back to within four games. You wouldn't have thought it so important after a cursory glance at the Mets' lineup card this afternoon, though. As Gary Cohen was quick to point out, six of the nine players had a sub-.305 on-base percentage: Alex Cora (.286), Jeff Francoeur (.303), Chris Carter (.261), Rod Barajas (.279), Ruben Tejada (.290), and Johan Santana (.152). Jason Bay was told to enjoy his bobblehead giveaway from the bench. Jose Reyes is on the shelf until at least after the All-Star break. Josh Thole took a dump on Jerry Manuel's desk.

So what's a team to do? Defy the odds and win the ballgame, I guess. Santana allowed five hits and three walks in seven innings, striking out five along the way and, more importantly, keeping the Braves off the scoreboard. Bobby Parnell continues to lay waste to opposing hitters, setting down Atlanta in order in the eighth. He has 14 strikeouts and two unintentional walks in 11 innings since being recalled from Buffalo. His success hasn't been of the smoke-and-mirrors variety this time; he's been legitimately excellent.

Francisco Rodriguez came on to close out the game and the first half, tossing just eight pitches in a 1-2-3 ninth to seal the victory.

Star-divide

SB Nation Coverage

* Traditional Recap
* Amazin' Avenue Gamethread
* Talking Chop Gamethread

Win Probability Added

Big winners: Johan Santana, +42.8% WPA, Ike Davis, +11.3% WPA
Big losers: Rod Barajas, -17.1% WPA, Jeff Francoeur, -0.8% WPA
Teh aw3s0mest play: Cora RBI single in third, +10.8% WPA
Teh sux0rest play: Barajas GIDP in second, -8.9% WPA
Total pitcher WPA: +53.2% WPA
Total batter WPA: -3.2% WPA
GWRBI!: Alex Cora

Game Thread Roll Call

Nice job by Gina; her effort in the game thread embiggens us all.

Num Name # of Posts
1 Gina 85
2 Michkin 73
3 keepcoolbutcare 63
4 aparkermarshall 59
5 the caveman 53
6 lstorie1971 52
7 Syler 46
8 EtSuKe 39
9 blueandorange4life 37
10 Jadden Hopkins 36

Comment 211 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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I'm surprised

that the players’ association doesn’t have a clause in the CBA that guys have to play on their bobblehead day.

by blains2000 on Jul 11, 2010 4:47 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Santana's change-up

Looks a lot more effective since he stopped tipping it. Sure he might not be striking out a ton, but hes gotten a lot of weak contact and pop-ups on it it seems.

by nmigliore on Jul 11, 2010 4:48 PM EDT reply actions  

I don't think it's all that unusual for a good starter to figure out he's tipping something,

or that his fastball’s lost a few mph so he’s got to take a few mph off his changeup, and get most of his mojo back in spite of not having the same stuff he had a few years ago.

by Jack Str on Jul 11, 2010 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's something I've always wondered.

When MPH on the fastball is dropping, and the differential between fastball and change-up gets slimmer, why not work on slowing down the change? The hardest part is throwing it with the same arm movement as the fastball, but if you’re throwing the fastball slower, adjusting the change shouldn’t be that hard (should it?).

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jul 11, 2010 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

thole took a dump on manuels desk? lol

next time he should leave it on his lap

I like Ike

by astromets on Jul 11, 2010 4:48 PM EDT reply actions  

Jerry has a desk?

What exactly is in or on that desk? Not paperwork.

by MookieTheCat on Jul 11, 2010 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

paperwork is false hustle

he has a tiny leprechaun on his desk. Leprechauns really hustle

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Jul 12, 2010 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Imagina-a-a-a-a-a-t-ion...

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jul 12, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeesh at 6 players

are we the kc of the nl?

I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson

by Gina on Jul 11, 2010 4:57 PM EDT reply actions  

Let's not get crazy

Were gonna have one of the best 1-6 once beltran comes back and bay gets hot.

by Mike Clemente on Jul 11, 2010 5:55 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Woah there Nellie.

One of the best 1-6? While I admire your optimism, I should point out the following (i) Reyes had been struggling with his Willie Mays Hayes-esque inability to hit ground balls, even before his mystery oblique, (ii) Pagan is exceeding expectations but given late season history I’m not sure we can count on that, (iii) Castillo, nuff said, (iv) the shine is coming off of Ike’s apple (as someone said the other day), (v) Bay (see above, Castillo), (vi) Frenchy (see above, Castillo), (vi) who knows if Beltran will play as he used to, as knee injuries and so much time off may lead to a readjustment period—good scenario—or a realization that the years have worn on him.

I think that Wright and Pagan are fairly sure things to play the rest of the reason well, but the rest of the lineup is pure risk. Barajas was hot early this season but quickly cooled and though I like Thole, I suspect that he will not end the season continuing his supra-Ted Williams pace. Sometime it can work out, but usually not. The problems with OBP have gone on for years now as well, and we have the constant counter-productive nature of Jerry.

Sorry to be Eeyore, but managing expectations is a key to being an active Mets fan, at least for me.

by MookieTheCat on Jul 11, 2010 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

i expect good from

dubs, pagan and reyes the rest of the season. the rest, i have no clue

I like Ike

by astromets on Jul 11, 2010 11:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

See my comment below on the Nats OBP.

The plaintiff rests and moves for a directed verdict your honor. (And any lawyers out there who want to tell me that a plaintiff cannot move for a directed verdict at the end of his presentation, yes I know, but the evidence is so overwhelming).

by MookieTheCat on Jul 12, 2010 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

Even so, Plaintiff never gets a directed verdict no matter how overwhelming lol

You should have moved for summary judgment before trial counselor

"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage

by blueandorange4life on Jul 12, 2010 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

Fair enough, although we could probably have come forth with enough evidence

to show no material issue of fact as to Jerry’s stupidity when his planned opening day roster included GMJ and Mike JaKobs.

"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage

by blueandorange4life on Jul 12, 2010 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, the opening statement didn't work out for him.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, everything that guy said was a load of crap. Thank you.

Your honor, I object to that statement as argumentative.

Yes, the jury is instructed to disregard everything except “thank you.”

Unfortunately Jerry is no Vinny Gambini or Mona Lisa Vito.

by MookieTheCat on Jul 12, 2010 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

i kind of like

ike, bay, thole, second baseman (if thole is playing(if thole stays around))
but your way otherwise

I like Ike

by astromets on Jul 12, 2010 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

I REALLY hate to mention this,

but the Royals have all of ONE starter (guess who??) with an OBP under .305.

by Jack Str on Jul 11, 2010 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

guillen?

posednik?

I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson

by Gina on Jul 11, 2010 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Betancourt

There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ

The 2010 Mets- Hey, we may suck, but what did you expect?

by Syler on Jul 11, 2010 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

sheesh they have so many

I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson

by Gina on Jul 12, 2010 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

You want to hear something worse?

Of all the Nats who have played in more than 40 games (I found it hard to figure out who the regular starters were given the weirdness of that team), guess how many have an OBP below .300?

Two.

by MookieTheCat on Jul 12, 2010 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

they have a really good 3-4-5

just bad pitching and defense

I like Ike

by astromets on Jul 12, 2010 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

willingham must be bffs with dave cameron

and wants to make us rue the day we doubted him.

I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson

by Gina on Jul 12, 2010 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

Apparently they have a better 1-6 than us typically.

And one of the others is Willy Harris, and we all know what he does vis a vis us.

by MookieTheCat on Jul 12, 2010 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Willingham is more the Met killer than Harris. Sure, we all know what he’s done in the field, but do we ever get Willingham out?

by lupojohn3 on Jul 12, 2010 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not to continue the argumentative streak...

But who exactly constitutes our defensive murderer’s row…
Watching Atlanta’s infield made me think about things. Those guys had the fundies down. Double plays were easy, and that fielder’s choice to home was textbook. With Reyes hurting our infield is problematic.

Not to mention the $5 million gun that can’t shoot straight.

by MookieTheCat on Jul 12, 2010 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

reyes had been playing great D before the oblique

tejada has a great reputation, though i have had more radio exposure since he came up. davis seems solid at first and dubs is underrated as a third baseman. dont mind our infield D.
bay has been better than expected on D, pagan r0x0rs, and frenchy is like bay with a better arm. dont mind our outfield D.

I like Ike

by astromets on Jul 12, 2010 12:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

There's good and there's "you don't worry"

I’ve seen a lot of minor things, like throwing to the wrong base, that tends to aggregate in the long run. Also our defense close to the plate (bunts and the like) just seems lacking to me. I have no stats to back this up but it just seemed like Atlanta was polished and we weren’t. Maybe it’s just that we gave them so many easy DP balls and gophers that it was easier for them, but in the aggregate their performance versus ours is telling.

by MookieTheCat on Jul 12, 2010 12:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

our 1-6 will be better

with a healthy jose and w.e we get from carlos that pushes ike and bay back AND removes frenchy

I like Ike

by astromets on Jul 12, 2010 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

Better may be good...

But not gooderer. And we need gooderer.

by MookieTheCat on Jul 12, 2010 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

what a surprise though

thole gets an at bat and gets a hit

I like Ike

by astromets on Jul 11, 2010 5:02 PM EDT reply actions  

and probably gets sent down soon =/

I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson

by Gina on Jul 11, 2010 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

wow Santana pitches and he gets a "W"

nice salvaging…too bad they didn’t win more against the lousy Reds.

"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"

by feslenraster on Jul 11, 2010 5:04 PM EDT reply actions  

that series was pathetic

the Red very easily could have swept the whole dame series, and should have at least come out with a split.

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Jul 12, 2010 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

They have pretty damn good pitching

There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ

The 2010 Mets- Hey, we may suck, but what did you expect?

by Syler on Jul 11, 2010 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

halladay yes

but the other 4 starters have FIP of 4.58 or higher

I like Ike

by astromets on Jul 11, 2010 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

4.6 WAR for halladay

2.7 WAR for moyer, hamels, kendrick and blanton

I like Ike

by astromets on Jul 11, 2010 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

damn even hamels

lulzy

I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson

by Gina on Jul 11, 2010 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

well actually

that’s probably cause of cbp. I’d be their xFIP’s are much lower.

I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson

by Gina on Jul 11, 2010 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

3.76 for Hamels

then 4.45 moyer, 4.61 blanton, 4.79 kendrick

I like Ike

by astromets on Jul 11, 2010 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

xFIP adjusts league average hr/fb rates

which is why most of the phillies have lower xFIP’s than FIPs, which doesn’t adjust.

I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson

by Gina on Jul 11, 2010 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

oh, my bad.

thanks for the clarification

by clip on Jul 11, 2010 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Syler, looking at tRA by statcorner

Lilly has been nearly a run better per 9 innings in twice as many innings

I like Ike

by astromets on Jul 11, 2010 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lilly has a 4,40 tRA

Takahashi has a 3.57 tRA

There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ

The 2010 Mets- Hey, we may suck, but what did you expect?

by Syler on Jul 11, 2010 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh, you're right, my bad

I just don’t like the idea of adding Lilly, unless it’s super, super cheap. There are probably guys in our system right now who could put up a 4.40 tRA

There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ

The 2010 Mets- Hey, we may suck, but what did you expect?

by Syler on Jul 11, 2010 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm thinking of a post on this subject

Lilly/Carmona/Westbrook vs. Taka vs. a few organizational guys who might be just as good (Gee for one). I’m with you on Lily, and Carmona is a little too troubled for me to get behind even if he is younger. Westbrook might be worth a second look but more research is needed.

"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage

by blueandorange4life on Jul 11, 2010 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Than who?

There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ

The 2010 Mets- Hey, we may suck, but what did you expect?

by Syler on Jul 11, 2010 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bigger point is that old Philly appears to be re-emerging.

Someone send me this via Facebook yesterday.

As much as I want what happened to Henry Hill’s gang to occur to Philly, the level of expectation of Philly fans has gotten deafening.

by MookieTheCat on Jul 12, 2010 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

2-4 homestand

2 wins by ze johan

I like Ike

by astromets on Jul 11, 2010 5:08 PM EDT reply actions  

our other pitchers all suck

except for Dickey who gave us a chance.

One day, this team is going to kill me.

by fxcarden on Jul 11, 2010 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Niese?

There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ

The 2010 Mets- Hey, we may suck, but what did you expect?

by Syler on Jul 11, 2010 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

this

I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson

by Gina on Jul 11, 2010 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

pelfrey wont suck forever

he hasnt had much control lately and if he isnt ahead in the count, its harder for him to get people to chase his splitter. he will return to form soon, like johan did

I like Ike

by astromets on Jul 11, 2010 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Having Alex Cora and injured Jose Reyes doesn't help much, either.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jul 11, 2010 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm excited.

With Beltran returning and Johan just being himself, I cannot wait to get things started again on Thursday.

by lefty vs lefty on Jul 11, 2010 5:29 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Am I reading this right?
Francisco Rodriguez came on to close out the game and the first half, tossing just eight pitches in a 1-2-3 ninth to seal the victory.

Holy Christ, this calls for a celebration.

2010: Year of the Grission

by R_Adragna on Jul 11, 2010 6:11 PM EDT reply actions  

I was studying with the game on mute.

I looked up 5 mins after the start of the inning and there were 2 outs and no one on. Was stunned.

by MookieTheCat on Jul 12, 2010 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Is Henry Blanco still alive?

I haven’t seen him in forever.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jul 11, 2010 6:26 PM EDT reply actions  

thats because he has only played 10 games since june 10

he played twice in washington, last appearance was last saturday

I like Ike

by astromets on Jul 11, 2010 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

it makes perfect sense

we’re the mets. barajas is the starter. blanco is the back up. if the starter can go, the starter goes.

I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson

by Gina on Jul 11, 2010 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Now, good day.

I said, good day!

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jul 11, 2010 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

and if thole could outperform both

then he should pinch bunt whenever possible

I like Ike

by astromets on Jul 11, 2010 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Very off-topic,

But the guys at Good Phight have responded with Big-Helmet David Wright Minotaur.

2010: Year of the Grission

by R_Adragna on Jul 11, 2010 6:29 PM EDT reply actions  

Right here

Wright as a minotaur

Can we please start the Ruben Tejada era?

by steelinnj on Jul 11, 2010 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

That Wright Minotaur

would kick the Utley Pegasus’s ass!

by blains2000 on Jul 11, 2010 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's true

Minotaurs are grissiony-er than Pegasi.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jul 11, 2010 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I forgot I registered over there...

But if anyone needs to be a mythical beast, Werth needs to be a Kraken. He just looks Krakenny.

by MookieTheCat on Jul 12, 2010 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

how is that a response?

Wright just looks bad ass

I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson

by Gina on Jul 11, 2010 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Parnell also used his slider very effectively to punch out Chipper

I think we should alter his name: Captain SliderBall

"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage

by blueandorange4life on Jul 11, 2010 6:29 PM EDT reply actions  

Beltran's Back

With Beltran back in the lineup on Thursday, do we know who’s being sent down/DFA’d?

by ColoradoMetsFan on Jul 11, 2010 6:39 PM EDT reply actions  

I think it's the right move

Beltran, Pagan and Francoeur are all capable with the glove, so there isn’t really a need for a good defensive outfielder off the bench. Carter is a better hitter than Jesus. Also Carter is listed as a designated hitter on Mets.com, kinda funny.

by James Kannengieser on Jul 11, 2010 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is there nobody affiliated with this team that is not inept?

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jul 11, 2010 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Mets.com people said he's our DH

with us being an NL team, and not actually having any DH position.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jul 11, 2010 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

to be fair

i am pretty sure that happened when the mets were playing in the AL parks and no one has noticed since

I like Ike

by astromets on Jul 11, 2010 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

the fact that someone is paid to run mets.com

and no one has noticed it yet is still kind of failure.

I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson

by Gina on Jul 11, 2010 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jul 11, 2010 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

pretty sure all the MLB team sites

are run by MLB.com – I’m sure each team has its own operator, but the whole network is pretty interconnected.

2009 Did Not Happen

by cjmulrain on Jul 12, 2010 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

Did anyone hear of this?

Sorry if this was discussed already but I heard it on the radio that once Beltran gets back on Thursday, Angel Pagan will be starting at RF.

Which, in turn, means that TeethCoeur is going to be relegated to the dreaded Defensive-Replacement late in games or something….

Bay, Beltran, Pagan. Now THAT is a potentially-productive outfield with zero “blackholes” on offense.

by BrockRocks on Jul 11, 2010 6:46 PM EDT reply actions  

Strictly speaking about defense production, I believe Pagan would have more mobility and would have better defensive numbers than a post-rehab Beltran in CF.

It’s hard to suddenly expect him to have the same range as before when a few months earlier people were saying it was a “career threatening” injury.
I guess they’ll just roll with him in CF and see how that goes.

Can he use knee braces during a game?

In lobby campaign for Chris Carter.

by Michkin on Jul 11, 2010 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

my question is

when you do bring in frenchy for D, who do you take out? Beltran and let frenchy/ph hit in the 4 spot, and move Pagan to left field. OR Bay and move Pagan to left field (i would assume he is the one to move because frenchy is less flexible)

I like Ike

by astromets on Jul 11, 2010 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why would you bring him in for defense?

There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ

The 2010 Mets- Hey, we may suck, but what did you expect?

by Syler on Jul 11, 2010 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

i dont know actually, jerryball

just responding to brockrocks comment

I like Ike

by astromets on Jul 11, 2010 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

But Pagan is still a much better defender

Pagan’s range advantage far outweighs Francoeur’s arm

by Evan_S on Jul 11, 2010 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hmm..I can live with that.

Hopefully Smiley-FaceCouer can suck a bit less now whenever he plays.

by BrockRocks on Jul 11, 2010 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'll be amazed if Manuel only starts Frenchy v lefties.

Pleased, but amazed. The Mets haven’t actually figured out he sucks, have they?

by Jack Str on Jul 11, 2010 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

From what Manuel said today, that's basically the plan

He said something along the lines of: I’ve got to look at results, we’re in a pennant race here.

He seems to think that with Beltran needing days off he can get Francoeur more than just lefty starts, but if Beltran and Pagan are both doing well, he’s going to have trouble putting Frenchy in to go 0 for 3.

Frenchy, bless his heart, said he’s not going to sulk about it.

by SuperT on Jul 11, 2010 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Even my mom feels bad for him

“He seems like such a nice guy but he just can’t do it.”

Her exact quote from today. Then she was real happy when he got his double. “Good for him.”

by blains2000 on Jul 11, 2010 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's awesome.

"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.

by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jul 11, 2010 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

He's the Anti-Pedro Feliciano.

And by extension he is the anti-Jesus Feliciano, and by that the anti-Jesus, and by that the anti-Christ, and by that he is a Pagan, and by that maybe he will learn how to be an outfielder who can hit the ball.

by MookieTheCat on Jul 12, 2010 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

o this one

well hoping he is going to learn how to hit is how we ended up with this guy in the first place. i would rather someone else was hoping he learned how to hit and we were making fun of them. instead, i am hoping he is good coming off the bench, but pagan is better so frenchy stays right there and maybe increases trade value.

I like Ike

by astromets on Jul 12, 2010 12:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

naw, most of our pitchers don't suck...that is until

only remergence of Oliver Perez and John Maine creates much suckage.

 I bet dollars to donuts that everyone on the team gave an exasperated sigh when they heard that the return of these two dodos was imminent! [ and that’s the reasoning behind their recent Citifield suck].

-“No, I don’t want them on the team, NO. they aren’t teammates.”-Annonymous Mets
-“We didn’t need Cliff Lee, we have an Ace in waiting in Oliver Perez,” – what Omar Minaya might say.

"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"

by feslenraster on Jul 11, 2010 7:48 PM EDT reply actions  

lol I can actually see Omar saying something like that

about how once Ollie and Maine get healthy we feel like we’ll have enough pitching to not need to make a trade.

I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson

by Gina on Jul 11, 2010 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

The only options are Oswalt, Haren, and Lilly. I was listening to Jon Heyman with Francesa, and he said the most likely guy is Lilly.

by lupojohn3 on Jul 11, 2010 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

there's westbrook and millwood also

I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson

by Gina on Jul 12, 2010 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

I want nothing to do with Millwood. I’ll be honest: i’d take Vazquez off the Yankees hands. You may think i’m nuts, but didn’t he have a 2.87 ERA in the NL last year? And Omar loves him. Of the guys listed, obviously Oswalt, but would McLane be finally willing to part with him?

by lupojohn3 on Jul 12, 2010 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

if i did the quick math right

he has had a 2.75 ERA since may 12

I like Ike

by astromets on Jul 12, 2010 12:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

no one here thinks you're nuts for liking Vazquez I promise you

but the Yankees aren’t likely to trade him.

I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson

by Gina on Jul 12, 2010 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm beginning to think that Elmer is vastly underrated.

The guy has some bad spots, but recently he’s been the cleanest guy we got besides Parnell.

by MookieTheCat on Jul 12, 2010 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Correction ... he's vastly lucky

His FIP is 3.39 and his xFIP is 5.10. I realize that certain guys can maintain a FIP lower than their xFIP, but he has virtually no peripherals to suggest he can maintain even close to this level of production.

He doesn’t strike guys out (3.93 K/9), has a fairly average walk rate (2.45BB/9), doesn’t induce a particularly high amount of GB’s (40.7 GB% and .96 GB/FB). The only reason he’s been effective is his 0 HR/FB.

by Balagast on Jul 12, 2010 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

Nieve gives up a lot of deep fly balls. Dessens at least seems to get hitters to just

smash linedrives at fielders instead. I guess that’s a case for Dessens > Nieve

by FrancoTAU on Jul 12, 2010 1:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

i do not look forward to an 11 game road trip

SF – ARI – LA (4 – 3 – 4)

SF and LA will especially be tough

I like Ike

by astromets on Jul 11, 2010 8:56 PM EDT reply actions  

if the d-backs bullpen doesn't show up

they could be incredibly tough

I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson

by Gina on Jul 11, 2010 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Their bullpen has an ERA of 6.70

When has it not sucked this season?

There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ

The 2010 Mets- Hey, we may suck, but what did you expect?

by Syler on Jul 11, 2010 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Giants have no hitting, and we beat them 2 out of 3. The Diamondbacks are terrible, and we own them in Arizona, and the Dodgers are a quality team, but we swept them already this season. Remember that doubleheader? I was there with my aunt, and everybody was complaining how cold it was? I was there in 2 short sleeve shirts. It really wasn’t that cold.

by lupojohn3 on Jul 11, 2010 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

the facts are

we are on the road, and it wont matter how little hitting the giants have if we cant score off of their better pitchers, we are going to get cain, lincecum, ztio and sanchez.

we are still on the road and it doesnt matter how many games in a row we won out in arizona at one point, we still have to show up on the road and beat them this year.

and the dodgers are a good team, and we have to play them in LA. we couldnt beat cinci and atlanta at home this past week, we need a different team to show up out west

I like Ike

by astromets on Jul 11, 2010 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think we’re dragging. Some guys like Ike, Tejada, even Pelf to a degree, are not used to a season this long and intense. I think it’ll do them wonders to have the All-Star break come now. I would expect to see a much different team take the field in SF thursday night.

by lupojohn3 on Jul 12, 2010 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

pelfrey has been around for a season this long and intense, see 2008

i agree it will help to get rested and their minds off of baseball some, but i dont think we can suddenly expect a whole lot out of tejada. davis may be able to break out some, and we really need him to, but that is no gu

I like Ike

by astromets on Jul 12, 2010 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

I put Pelfrey in there because he said it himself in the paper, or at least there was a headline to that effect.

by lupojohn3 on Jul 12, 2010 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

I've been chowing down on crow

Kobayashi-style, re: Francoeur, but I don’t see a whole lot of acknowledgement that maybe -just maybe – the Chris Carter lobby didn’t really know enough about the player to call the Mets idiots for not starting him. .260 OBP??? Wasn’t he patient in AAA?

by tmu on Jul 11, 2010 11:33 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

if i am not mistaken

the lobby was for him starting over mike jakobs

I like Ike

by astromets on Jul 11, 2010 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

No

I distinctly recall folks wanting him to replace Frenchy . . . whose OBP is 40 points higher. Now, granted, spot duty isn’t easy, but Carter’s poor OBP,coupled with the complete lack of evidence that he could even approach acceptable RF defense, makes that position seem downright silly, in retrospect. But all I hear are crickets.

by tmu on Jul 12, 2010 12:19 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Pinch hitting penalty is about 20 points of wOBA

if I remember correctly. Which is generally around a 60 point drop in OPS. Add in that Carter’s only had 69 at bats, and it’s certainly justifiable to still want Carter over Francouer, if you think his defense will play.

by yellomellojello on Jul 12, 2010 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

that was also at a time when frenchy was hitting like .200 for several long weeks, with a like .220 OBP

imo, it seems really hard to say what we have in him at this point, just that i think we would have been better off keeping wagz and offering him arb instead of getting him and that other first base ‘prospect’

I like Ike

by astromets on Jul 12, 2010 1:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well, this is true

I remember saying that it was like starting John Maine in right, or something similar.

by tmu on Jul 12, 2010 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

TMU...

How dare you use logic and a defensible recollection of the past to support your argument! For shame, sir, for shame!

by MookieTheCat on Jul 12, 2010 1:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

Carter hasn't even had 70 PA

If he walks in his next PA, his BB% more than doubles and OBP goes up 10 points, if he gets a hit, hit average increases 11 points. I’d still take him in RF over Francoeur.

by Evan_S on Jul 12, 2010 3:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

The lobby still stands.

1) Francoeur had in his MLB career 3265 PA to prove what his true talent level is. Carter had 98 PA in his career.
2) Carter is in the ML roster for 2 months. In this period he had 72 PA. That’s 1.2 PA/day.
3) Besides the irregular playing time (he has 3 PA in one day then he doesn’t bat until the next series), he was used primarily as a PH. There is a considerably penalty for PH performance, as already mentioned.
4) Even then, Carter still hit better than Francoeur against righties, that account for most PA:
Francoeur: .223/.271/.375 or .277 wOBA and 70 wRC+
Carter: .257/.278/.414 or .302 wOBA and 86 wRC+

So, you have a guy who had irregular playing time, had the handicap of PH (and DH), yet only 72 AB total, and he still overperformed Francoeur against righties. Yes, I’d still take Carter over Francoeur against RHP.

In lobby campaign for Chris Carter.

by Michkin on Jul 12, 2010 5:31 AM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

But. . . .

where are you getting any sort of a track record for Carter? You have to do better than Anybody But Frenchy to justify the Carter love.

(cue the “I’d take a dead fish over Frenchy” comments. . . .)

by tmu on Jul 12, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wait, wait, wait

Never mind.

But you’re complainign abotu sample size, then you’re starting this guy in right against righties on the assumption that pinch hitting is depressing his production, and with no knowledge of his defensive ability, and a poor smile.

by tmu on Jul 12, 2010 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

well that's probably cause there's a huge sample size that says

Frenchy is horrible against righties, his entire career basically, and a pretty large one that says Carter will at least be around league average vs righties.

I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson

by Gina on Jul 12, 2010 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

plus lefties cant hit lefties

so they must be able to hit righties

I like Ike

by astromets on Jul 12, 2010 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well

when the reality begins to validate the projections, we’ll talk. As of right now, with Pagan shifting over to right, it’s kind of moot.

by tmu on Jul 12, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Reality won't validate the projections because his window of opportunity was when Beltran was in the DL but they didn't give him a chance to compete against Francoeur.

Or to at least platoon in RF.
And this goes back to the “Mike Jakobs” argument: he is a “proven veteran” because he had MLB experience. They wouldn’t give Carter playing time because he doesn’t have MLB experience. It’s a circular argument trap.

In lobby campaign for Chris Carter.

by Michkin on Jul 12, 2010 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I would still take Carter over Frenchy

vs. righthanded pitching every time, thank you. Carter’s really not had enough major league at bats to have an complete opinion on him. Frenchy has. Carter’s had some poor luck on babip, and yes, he’s shown no patience, but a lot of that is that he feels he has to hit to stay up here. If he played regularly vs. righties his numbers would surpass Francoeur’s. So if you’re looking for crickets you won’t find them here.

by David G on Jul 12, 2010 1:47 AM EDT reply actions  

Frenchy this season vs. righthanded pitching

.223/.272/.373 for a .644 OPS. He really has no business ever starting vs. righties.

by David G on Jul 12, 2010 1:54 AM EDT reply actions  

Thole

he has impressive ABs over and over, fouls off a lot of pitches to get the big PH again and again…that stuff cant be taught

by Rickfansince76 on Jul 12, 2010 9:37 PM EDT reply actions  

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