MMMBop Applesauce - Mets salvage one, Beltran and Pagan in OF, Francoeur on bench
by Joe Budd on Jul 12, 2010 9:07 AM EDT
in Applesauce
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Meet the Mets
The weekend wasn't a success, but it wasn't a disaster either. Fortunately, Greg Prince showed up on Sunday to salvage one game in the series. While I'm on the topic of this weekend, was I the only one who found Kevin Millar unlistenable? I was actually yearning for Tim McCarver.
Carlos Beltran will make his triumphant return to the Met lineup on Thursday, playing center field and batting fourth and not at 100%. Angel Pagan will play right field. Jeff Francouer is taking it in stride.
Speaking of Jeff Francoeur, The Golden Sombrero posts about Sports Illustrated's delusion.
In minor league news, Oliver Perez walked 5 guys and Jeurys Familia sucked it up in the Futures Game.
Can I just say that Joe Petruccio is getting better and better as the year goes on. He is spot on almost every game now.
Seattle wanted a first baseman badly, demanding Ike Davis in any trade for Cliff Lee. The Mets may still wind up with Roy Oswalt, a nice fallback plan. The Lee deal certainly worked out nicely for the Mariners though.
Around MLB
The Phillies swept the Reds in three walkoff victories. The worst of the three is here.
Ichiro gives one fan the thrill of her life.
Yankees games in 3D. Who will ever want to go visit the big concrete place in the Bronx now? Tickets probably cost as much as the new TV.
Buck Showalter to the Orioles may finally happen.
Jeff Bagwell as Astro hitting coach already has.
Mark Cuban will make a bid on the Texas Rangers, but you shouldn't expect MLB owners to welcome him with open arms.
And, finally, in All-Star news, some good analysis as usual from Joe Posnanski and, more frequently, the New York Times.
Outside MLB
Tommy Hanson is the same "Hanson" as that other Hanson.
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intelligence in the Mets management?
Let’s hope we never see Jeff Francouer play full time ever again in a Mets uniform…!
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
dude he played pretty decent over 1 year
you make it like he sucked it up, he had 80+ RBIs in 1 full year, didn’t strike out that much an dthrew out a lot of guys on the bases. Plus he is a great clubhouse guy, everyone says it on the team
by Rickfansince76 on Jul 13, 2010 7:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes, he played decently for one year
several years ago. Francoeur sucks, almost as much as RBI does in player evaluation.
I'll miss you Wincouer
we’ll always have the spring.
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.
by kendynamo on Jul 12, 2010 9:42 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Did you guys see Jerry told press that Bay has been tired for awhile
Why didn’t he rest him earlier then, of course press probably let Jerry laugh it off
Kevin Millar angried up my blood.
Compared to him Tim McCarver is the soothing sound of a gently moving mountain stream.
He had the same problem as a lot of other crappy color commentators
He would see something on the field and then tell you a story about himself. For example (did not actually happen), he might see Jeff Francouer flip over the wall trying to catch a foul ball and explain how he once hut his knees when he tripped and fell….and then explain that hurt knees “hurt.”
What I’d rather hear is what Francouer or a comparable player might be thinking, whether the fact that it was two days before the all star break (and before losing his job) might have an effect on his desire to go for it, whether there are players that have done so and regretted it, etc.
The long and the short of it is that I’d rather hear about the hypothetical and the reasoning of that precise situation than about his personal stories that are barely connected to the action. Ron Darling is great at this, especially when describing pitch sequences, field positioning, or baserunning strategies. He’ll say something to the effect of “I’d throw a fastball on the inside right now. I set him up with that outside breaking ball, so he probably won’t be looking for it and won’t be able to keep up.”
But the yahoos that Fox assumes are watching
as they blatantly and offensively underestimate the intelligence of the viewing audience can “relate” to the “toss me a beer” buddy-isms of Millar. COWBOY UP!
by tmu on Jul 12, 2010 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I agree with your analysis...
and I think that’s part of what makes guys like Millar and Dibble so grating. They are so busy reminding us that they are “one of the guys” that they have no time to really tell us anything useful or actually interesting. I do think Ron Darling is very adept at using his player knowledge to actually inform and enlighten; I think John Smoltz is also going to be very good at this.
I thought I was going to have to kill myself after listening to Millar for a few innings.
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
Success Via Failure
I’ve gotta say, everything’s coming up Milhouse for the Mets this year. It’s amazing (and doubly amazing that “everything’s coming up Milhouse” is probably the perfect descriptor ofwhat’s going on.)
The bad guys are failing at just the right time, forcing management into putting better guys in place. Ted Berg pointed out that “since June 22, when word came that Carlos Beltran was returning: Angel Pagan – .413/.446/.686. Jeff Francoeur – .197/.234/.295.”
Any news on Reyes?
why the Mets agreed to that stupid trip to PR , I have no idea. The team has played lousy since ,and Reyes is hurt from playing in that 1970’s era stadium.
by Blame-everyone-else on Jul 12, 2010 10:32 AM EDT reply actions
doesn't help they insisted on playing reyes hurt either
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Jul 12, 2010 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Kevin Millar needs to be brought up on charges for crimes against humanity for his broadcasts
Glad to see we’re actually taking the rational approach and moving Frenchy to the bench. I for one can’t wait to see them bring him in specifically to bunt with a runner on second and no outs. I know Ollie will probably be in our pen when he gets back, but… do we have to? It’s only making our pen worse, although maybe it’ll motivate our starters to go deeper into games so they dont have to see him flail around on the mound.
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Jul 12, 2010 10:32 AM EDT reply actions
I love it!
God damnit, Pelfrey, pitch better or we will FORCE YOU TO SIT ON THE BENCH AND WATCH OLIVER PEREZ….PITCH. :-)
Manage of the Year. hahaha
Pelfrey, Niese, Dickey, Santana sure sounds like a great playoff rotation, don't it? Let's Go Mets!
He talks about retiring because because he'd like to be home more, though he's loath to leave the game
They should talk him into moving to Fox to do the Saturday broadcast. He’d be able to be home except for just one overnight a week.
Of course, only one game would get him, and we’d still have tools doing the other two.
Plus Mets might be messing up Fox some too ,they wanted to use Darling for the Nats gm and SNY and Mets said no
They have always been like that under Wilpon it was the reason Gary Thorn Left
Two:
1) It’s good to give players a break when you can, and we can here.
2) Let’s say he goes Friday, when his normal off-day would be. You’d be shelving Niese and Pelfrey for over a week.
Fair enough
But why not go Niese-Pelfrey-Santana to start? Everyone gets at least an extra day off that way. And I find it hard to believe there’s any evidence to support Jerry’s theory that a knuckleballer in the first game of a series throws off the opposing team.
Not a huge deal, of course, just seems to make more sense.
by Bieser's Balk on Jul 12, 2010 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Phillies-Red not all walkoffs
Phillies had three walkoff wins in a row, but the finale was a 1-0 win, no walkoff. The game before the Reds was a walkoff.
Freakin Reds.
Pelfrey, Niese, Dickey, Santana sure sounds like a great playoff rotation, don't it? Let's Go Mets!
Frenchy watch...
is going to be interesting. Unless he has done a lot of growing up in the last year, he is not going to do well on the bench.
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
He probably believes that it's a matter of streakiness
And Pagan has been hot. He no doubt thinks he just needs to get hot.
let's be fair, it could be that's true
Maybe as soon as Francoeur snaps out of his 5-year, 3300-PA cold streak, he’ll be great.
by anonymous on Jul 12, 2010 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I constantly marvel at what seems to be the standard mindset of professional athletes
They’re very accomplished to get to that level, of course, but still they seem often to be convinced that they’re better than they are. I sort of envy that – there don’t seem to be a lot of downsides to a somewhat delusional level of belief in your own abilities, as long as you’re not unpleasant about it.
If you work in a technical field where mistakes are obvious, there are pitfalls to such an approach, of course, but most of life isn’t like that. It’s all perception and assumption. Heavens, even absolutely quantifiable differences in baseball aren’t convincing to most people if they like a guy, for whatever reason. Julia Child didn’t believe in apologizing, ever, for food that hadn’t turned out, no matter how bad it was, because you’re affecting perception and making it worse than it might otherwise be. The dish might not be as bad as you fear, your guests might not think it’s very bad at all, they may in fact trust your judgment more than their own.
Anyway, you can get pretty far in life asserting that you’re better than you are, and it’s got to be helpful to actually believe it.
by SuperT on Jul 12, 2010 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
best moment in Moneyball
Billy Beane’s recollection of the moment he realized that he was never going to make the big leagues, sitting on the bench next to Lenny Dykstra. “Who’s this pitcher? I can hit him.”
like Kenny Powers
We've got ourselves a ball club, the Mets of New York town!
by kingcritical on Jul 12, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I kind of wish they'd send him down and convert him into a pitcher
I bet he can throw in the mid 90’s.
by secret defense on Jul 12, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
He will probably take more pitches now he did early in season and hit
He stopped but Jerry never realized it he thought he was getting a lot of strikes down the middle thrown to him, then he sat him for 2 gms and he took pitches again and hit for a few weeks.
Then fell into his trap he gets lazy when he plays everyday and swings at everything to get out of there
They will face 2 lefties in San Francisco
So Frenchy will probably play both those, and Pagan and Beltran will play 3 out of 4.
a 60% beltran
is better than 100% failcouer
I hate Philadelphia so much.
by the caveman on Jul 12, 2010 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Did anyone see the tim k article
about how this last generation has had no great all around outfielders? Everyone was either a slugger who played mediocre defense or all glove and no bat? he went through a bunch of outfielders, Braun, Guerro, Ramirez, Crawford, etc and claimed there was not one outfielder who was great on both sides. Carlos Beltran, (and Matt Holliday) both got one mention in one sentence as veterans outfielders who might be hall of famers if they finish really strong.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
Crawford is a terrific hitter, he just doesn't hit for power.
Ichiro also fits the mold. Josh Hamilton and Holliday are both decent fielders.
by secret defense on Jul 12, 2010 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions
and Guerrero was too until he fucked up his legs
It’s a minor miracle that he can play at all anymore — not really fair to portray him as lacking the skills to play the field well, rather than just the knees.
Do you have a link to the article?
god, what a terrible article
And let me just say:
How about the rest of the veteran outfielders? Holliday? Torii Hunter? Adam Dunn? Carlos Beltran? Maybe with a really strong finish, one of them will end up in the Hall of Fame.
Seriously, fuck Tim Kurkjian for even daring to mention Beltran’s name in the same breath as Hunter’s.
Seriosuly, he puts Jim Rice in the "great outfielders" category?
Beltran without any knees has already been significantly better than him, and he’s still only 32
Also beltran has a pretty decent chance even with the knees
of reaching the 300-300 club, I think he’s at like 270 home runs and 280 stolen bases.
Can they actually pass him over for the HOF if he does that?
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
The 300-300 club?
That won’t even get him a ticket to the town of Cooperstown.
Beltran’s one of those guys that gets screwed by the HOF. Does everything well but doesn’t have the rep of being the best at any one thing. Great, great stolen base percentage, but not great totals. Terrific CFer, but only 3 GGs. That’s very low for a guy whose going to get in in part with his glove. Only 5 All Star games: very low total for a HOFer. He had the great year—his best year by far—in 2006 but only finished 4th in the MVP voting. Only 1700 hits.
OTOH he has 7 seasons with over 100 runs. 8 seasons with over 100 RBIs. That impresses voters. He had the tremendous run with Houston, and he’s got the insane postseason numbers. They’re not just good, they’re Ruthian. He’s got over 54 WAR, and most guys over 60 are in or are going to go in, though I think Lofton’s got 61 and he’ll be one and done. I’d think if he doesn’t put up at least three more strong years after this he doesn’t have a chance. Even at 80%, though, he’s be able to hang around for some team as a corner OFer/DH.
only 1700 hits now
if he plays 3 more years he could easily get to 2000
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
He'd better get to 2000
if he plays three more years. I’m guessing there are one or two non pitchers with around 2000 hits in the HOF (non-veteran’s committee division).
and not great totals?
he’d be one of only 7 guys with 300 home runs and 300 stolen bases. And of the other 6, 3 who are HOF eligible are in the HOF.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
No, they're not great totals.
300 HRs and 300 SBs will have nothing to do with Carlos getting in. He’ll need vastly more than that. I’ll bet my small fortune that none of the guys w 300 300 who are in didn’t also accomplish a great deal more than that. Carlos simply isn’t close yet.
Who are the six? (It would make a good quiz question)
Gotta be Willie, Barry, The Rod, Bobby Bonds…
Think Jim Edmonds.
A MUCH better hitter than Beltran, who stuck around for the equivalent of three more old guy seasons (about 400 games) than Carlos currently has. 8 GG, which is five more than Beltran will end up with; comparable number of All-Star appearances. Beltran will have superior counting numbers, but the stolen bases won’t make any difference to voters. Edmonds probably won’t sniff the hall any more than Scott Rolen will, or Robin Ventura or Ron Santo did. Betlran needs more than three more 140 game seasons to get in. He’s going to need a gentle decline into his late 30s and possibly to age 40.
Jim Edmonds, Scott Rolen, Ron Santo
all should be in the HOF. Ventura is borderline. If Jim Rice gets in all these guys should be in. Also, even voters should know that GG means dipshit because players often get them more due to their offensive reputation than actual performance.
by secret defense on Jul 12, 2010 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions
a MUCH better hitter? Not really.
Edmonds career wRC+: 134
Beltran career wRC+: 126
Edmonds deserves some serious HoF consideration, in any case.
also, WTF is Kurkjian trying to say in the final section there?
A shortage of African-American players. Thirty years ago, 28 percent of all major leaguers were African-American. Now it’s down to 8.7 percent. […] In the past 31 years, 14 African-American outfielders have been elected to the Hall of Fame […] There are several good young African-American outfielders today, including Crawford, Hunter, Matt Kemp, B.J. and Justin Upton and Andrew McCutchen, but, at least so far, none fits the profile as the great all-around outfielder.
What the hell kind of illogical nonsense-claim is he trying to make here? The points seem to be: 1. There are no more great all-round outfielders now because there are fewer African-American players. (???) 2. There used to be more great (therefore all-around players? not stated) African-American outfielders. 3. But, wait, actually, there are still a bunch of African-American outfielders, but they just aren’t the all-around kind for some unstated reason.
Is he making sense at all?
Love the word choice here
“Are we just in a down cycle with the retirements of Bonds… Sammy Sosa…?”
by Bieser's Balk on Jul 12, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
And he totally forgot
L-Millz
I think he was saying that a lot of the great all-around OFs in the past were black. Now there are fewer black players, generally, and fewer great all-around OFs. ERGO, maybe there’s a connection between being black and being a great “all-around” OF. This starts to get a little Jimmy-the-Greek-ish and uncomfortable. Is an “all-around” OF like a “mobile” quarterback or a “possession” receiver?
the thing is even if he thinks black players have some sort of special
physical attributes that make them great all of around centerfielder talents (like that extra leg muscle) , puerto ricans and dominicans, and probably other hispanics but I don’t know enough about them, are pretty much identical to African Americans.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
yeah my point was more
Holliday and Beltran have both been really really good on both sides of the ball. And he spends the entire article talking about guys like Braun.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
Classic example of only acknowledging that which support your claim
and ignoring all others.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
Yep
Start with a premise —> find info to support that premise —> leave out anything that contradicts the premise. Boom, ESPN column.
by James Kannengieser on Jul 12, 2010 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
after listening to that guy on baseball tonight for years
i avoid what he has to say
I like Ike
Nothing drives me to the edge of throwing my remote at the TV
quite like “Kirk-gems”.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
thats exactly what i was thinking about
that guy probably prefers a good sac fly to a homerun
I like Ike
If I have to hear one more story about Aubrey Huff's clubhouse demeanor...
… I’ll pierce my own eardrums.
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Jul 12, 2010 12:54 PM EDT reply actions
Joe Petruccio's sketch for yesterday is priceless
In the background of Santana pitching are two crates watching him labelled Ollie and Maine.
Ollie crate says: Wow! If I could pitch like that I’d make millions.
To which Maine crate replies: You do make millions and you suck!
lolz
i dont mind the idea of an oswalt consolation prize
lets make it happen omah
I like Ike
If they don't afford to pay the money to get Oswalt
It would be a travesty for a franchaise in NYC. They should just sell the team to Mark Cuban.
by secret defense on Jul 12, 2010 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions
That's the word.
They didn’t spend despite the clear need in the offseason. With no apparent change in the Wilpons’ finances we’d be fools to think it would be any different now.
Also did anyone hear the ESPN segment
where they spent about 15 minutes discussing whether Albert Pujols was the next Lebron/decision? Is there any news channel more capable of creating their own news and then convincing the rest of the world it’s real news than ESPN?
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
I will never forget
“Who’s more ‘now’”?
NEVER FORGET!
I just commented the same thing in a FanShot thread
Who’s Now. That was pure brilliance. Who won? Kobe? Tiger? Mia Hamm?
by James Kannengieser on Jul 12, 2010 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions
That was then, this is "now"
It was Tiger. Or LeBron. Or someone else who pissed away much of his advertising worth over the past few months, but still sleeps on a big Scrooge McDuck pile of money. We all know that the most “now” indivijal on the planet . . well, “now” is
Bastian Schweinsteiger. Hey, his girlfriend is really hot. And you haven’t lived until you’ve had a tasty BifiGeflugel.
by tmu on Jul 12, 2010 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
rec'd for someone who has pissed away most of his advertising worth
someone in the nets grooup brought up a good point, through all the whole decision tom-foolery you didn’t see one Nike swoosh despite Lebron being one of their top sponsors, or w/e the word is. Nike did their best to stay as away brand nightmare.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
No rec.
Ugh the BiFi Roll was a lowlight from my last trip to Germany. Nasty stuff.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jul 13, 2010 2:03 AM EDT up reply actions
O god Benigno and Roberts were just discussing WAR
so awful. Joe was like BRO I can’t get into this stat, gimme RBI anyday, run production is how I measure a player’s value.
between that and wins, evan must constantly be doing this
I like Ike
by astromets on Jul 12, 2010 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Oh god, I can only imagine.
I kind of want a transcript, but then again, I kind of don’t.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
Perez walks five in five innings?
Great news. He may never make it back.
Yup. I'm putting the over/under at how many games Perez blows in relief
before he comes down with his next mystery “injury” at three.
Francouer taking the benching like a man
he is still upbeat, I think if Beltran ishealthy we can shop him, teams want a clubhouse guy like him
Spare me, Evan.
I’m sure there are teams out there who has outfielders whom the fans dub “My God, he sucks! He’s the worst outfielder in baseball!!”.
As the saying goes : “The Grass is always Greener on the other side”.
Francoeur put it simply: Given the way Pagan is hitting, he deserves to play. As for himself, he said he was not sure what it would be like to come off the bench, but he would take it day by day and do his best as a pinch hitter or defensive replacement.
"You’re not going to see me sitting there sulking," he said.
You can’t say he’s a cancer, Evan. It’s not in his nature to turn into Bobby Bonilla, you know. heheh.
Who knows? Maybe with the Scarcity of at-bats, he might actually TAKE SOME MORE PITCHES to make sure he makes the most of each at-bat he gets…. I can definitely see that happening.
WTF are you talking about?
Take a look at all major-league right fielders by WAR. Notice who’s at the bottom of that list?
The grass actually is greener on the other side of the fence sometimes, you know. In this case, the grass is greener on every one of the 29 other sides of the fence.
by anonymous on Jul 13, 2010 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
aah. anonymous, so nice of you to grace us with your...
…“interesting” presence.
And once again you get involved in conversations that don’t concern you. Oh well. I guess it can’t be helped.
If you don’t think there aren’t fans out there who have the same feelings regarding some of their players that we do for Frenchy, then you’re being very naive.
You use sabermetrics to show how horrid Frenchy is but that doesn’t mean that on other teams, their fans use sabermetrics at all to determine a players’ worth. They probably go on what the player does on the field, not on a statistical sheet.
Hate to break it to you but not every fan uses or even bothers to acknowledge the existence of Sabermetrics. No fan wants to go to a game and THINK too much. They go to a game to have fun and watch his own team try and win.
Now all that said, I am not suggesting that Frenchy is anything but a HORRIFIC RF’er for this team. I’m just saying what I just stated.
THAT’S what I’m talking about.
this makes nearly no sense to me
So your point seems to be: A) some fans are uninformed, B) some uninformed fans hate good players, therefore C) Francoeur is not the worst RF in baseball and/or is tradable? Does that make any kind of sense? How is this garbled nonsense a meaningful contribution to a baseball discussion?
p.s. comments here "concern" anyone who wants to reply
If you’re trying to have a private conversation with one person, take it to email, not an open community forum.
By your rules of internet comment section discussion,
you barged in on a conversation that doesn’t concern you between Rickfansince and Evan.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
heh. Seems like "someone" bookmarks old threads
and then goes back to “get the last word in”.
Well, touche, anonymous. oh and you still miss my point entirely on Francoeur but that’s okay. I’ve long since given up trying to explain things to you.
And Ogre, I concede that you do have a valid point there. Well played, sir.
bookmarks?
If you need to use bookmarks to keep track of discussions from yesterday, you’ve got bigger problems than not making sense on the Internet.
There you go, always getting the last word in...
tisk-tisk
Wait! Now I’m doing it! ARG!
Save Jenrry Mejia!
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