Mets 5, Nationals 3: Niese Gets Win, Rodriguez The "Save"
by Eric Simon on Jul 2, 2010 10:47 PM EDT
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PrintThanks to Jerry Manuel, a lovely recap about a wonderful Jon Niese start has gone down the toilet, replaced by yet another needless rant about how experienced managers make game-altering tactical decisions based on the arbitrary prerequisites of a meaningless stat "invented" by sportswriter Jerome Holtzman.
With the Mets leading 5-1 in the ninth, Pedro Feliciano came on -- yes, again -- to face Adam Dunn. Dunn promptly struck out and Feliciano promptly exited stage left. Now let's pretend for a moment that the save wasn't a thing. Up four runs with one out in the ninth, what is the most appropriate bullpen move when all relevant factors have been considered? You're trying to win the game, sure, but you have to weigh that against the need to get your relievers adequate rest as well as adequate work, consider lefty/righty matchups, and so on. Given all of that, maybe you bring in your best reliever to lock down that victory. That's Francisco Rodriguez.
Or, maybe you want to give Rodriguez an extra day of rest. A four-run lead with two outs to go is pretty comfortable and just about any big league pitcher could be expected to protect it 90+% of the time. Elmer Dessens is as good a choice as any, so you bring him in and he gives up a walk and a double to put runners on second and third, but he also records the second out of the inning, leaving the Nationals four runs down with just one out remaining. Even with two runners in scoring position, practically every major league pitcher will be able to get out of the inning without surrendering the lead.
Again, let's assume there's no such abstract quantification called a "save". Is there any reason to bring your best reliever in now? Any at all? How much more likely is it that Francisco Rodriguez will retire one batter before allowing four (or more) runs than Elmer Dessens will? Dessens will probably get the job done 95% of the time, so how fantastic is Rodriguez that he'd significantly improve upon that? He's not, of course, which is the only reason we're discussing this in the first place.
Here's a simple rule for all of the managers out there: Before making any pitching decision, ask yourself whether you'd make that same decision if there was no such thing as a save. If the answer is clearly "yes", go ahead and make the move. If the answer is "no", go back to the drawing board. That's it, dead simple.
Poem by Howard Megdal
(Again, sung to Mona Lisa)
Bernadina, Bernadina
Where you running?
Willie Harris, when he faces Mets, he wins
Bernadina, Bernadina
Blunder stunning
In ninth inning, simply are no greater sins
Did you try to force a balk there, Bernadina?
Or just get a healthy lead and running start?
Then Tejada snuck in right behind you
Mets had guy there
So you die there
Are you thick, are you dense, Bernadina?
Or in a loss, you simply wanted starring part
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Eh, really dumb managing, but we still won, which is the most important thing
I really don’t know what I would’ve done if we lost
There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ
The 2010 Mets- Hey, we may suck, but what did you expect?
Marlins are absolutely useless
There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ
The 2010 Mets- Hey, we may suck, but what did you expect?
I'm shocked the marlins don't go 11-151 every year
11-8 against the mets
by HotChipWillBreakYourLegs on Jul 3, 2010 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions
why is it that everytime something is crucial or good hapenning to the mets
the marlins appear and shit in our cereal?
I hate Philadelphia so much.
jerry is so...
stats, they are seriously never in Francoeur's favor
Calling Jerry Manuel retarded would be an insult to mentally handicapped people everywhere.
John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.
I still don't get
why Parnell couldn’t start the 9th inning. The man pitched an easy 8th inning, reward him for pitching well. In a night where Gary & Ron were belaboring stats, Jerry’s dependence on the “save” almost cost the Mets the game.
"I want to win now, not 3 years from now. That's my stance." - Kevin Burkhardt
RIGHTIES CAN'T GET LEFTIES OUT
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
dont give them ideas
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Jul 2, 2010 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions
you think things like numbers will get in the way of their crazy decision making?
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Jul 2, 2010 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions
the worst wasJerry grining like a cat at the end of the game
when he was a pure idiot and only a bigger idiot in Bernadina saved us from further damage and a possible epic loss
Another game ruined by Jerry Manuel
and this was a win. Imagine how bad it would have been, if Tejada and Frankie didnt pick off Bernadina.
by aparkermarshall on Jul 2, 2010 11:06 PM EDT reply actions
Damned fish exist only to spite us
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Jul 2, 2010 11:11 PM EDT reply actions
yep they'
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
fuckin a i hate the apostrophe key
they’ll lay down for everyone else, then sweep us near the end of the season to end our post season hopes.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
Marlins love winning against us and losing against everyone else.
I hate the Marlins so fucking much.
2010: Year of the Grission
Honestly their bullpen is horrible
And seriously one of those games was ours, but Jerry gave it away by switching around the bullpen roles “to give [Cranky aka BB Rod] work”
I never...
…ever…EVER…want to see Castillo at 2B again.
by Crazy Nyce Dave on Jul 2, 2010 11:20 PM EDT reply actions
i'd say seconded
but its probably more like millionthed
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Jul 2, 2010 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey guys
We won. I know. Jerry’s an idiot. I get it. He drives me crazy too. But it’s starting to wear on me that after every win it seems instead of talking about the good things that happened, we’re talking about Jerry. David Wright had another big game. Jon Niese pitched a gem. Even Alex Cora had a big hit. I’m not a Jerry apologist, but at some point it’s like complaining about the weather. You can’t change it, and all it really accomplishes is getting yourself aggravated. I’m not saying don’t criticize Jerry at all, but we’re having a great season. Let’s enjoy it a little bit.
And oh yeah. F%$@ the Marlins.
PS- I’m not trying to troll here, just trying to inject some positiveness into the discussion
You don't cheer for the Mets. You drink for the Mets.
Alex Cora honestly surprised me
I only watched from 7th inning on, but I gotta say I was impressed with what the guys did (besides K-Rod and Dessens). Niese was fantastic, and it was great that Jerry let him pitch that far instead of nurturing him to 6 IP. It’s also great to hear that Pagan is back and okay.
That's the spirit!
You don't cheer for the Mets. You drink for the Mets.
I"l join the fun
Niese set a new career high in K’s which was good to see, and Cap’n Fastball pitched another solid inning.
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Jul 2, 2010 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't wanna jinx it...
…but I’m starting to look forward to Niese’s starts the same way I looked forward to Johan’s two years ago.
Let's go get a beer, Doc.
by Crazy Nyce Dave on Jul 2, 2010 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I look forward to Niese, Pelf, and Dickey starts, and Santana gave me some room for optimism this past start
now if we could just get him some runs occasionally
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Jul 2, 2010 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Earlier in the year
when I was going to games with my biddies (before they went home for break) I always tried to get either Pelfrey or Niese starts.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
doesn't want to kill the rally
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Jul 2, 2010 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions
the presence of frenchy is strong in this one
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
if presence were important it would be on the scoreboard
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Jul 2, 2010 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions
VVVVVVVVV
"The one thing you don't want to do is hit a home run. That's a rally-killer." -Jeff Francoeur
by RangersandMets on Jul 2, 2010 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions
because he’s got no heart, doesn’t know how to win, not a true Yan..uh…
/Fatcesa’d
Let's go get a beer, Doc.
by Crazy Nyce Dave on Jul 2, 2010 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought Willie Harris was gonna kill us again
but luckily Bernadina got picked off. Phew!
How about an Orange Monster at Citi Field for Bay?
by Mets-Suns-Texans on Jul 2, 2010 11:29 PM EDT reply actions
The Nats always seem eager to hand us games
Just as much as the Marlins seem eager to squeak out wins against us.
yeah thankfully Bernadina didn't see that pickoff move coming at all
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Jul 2, 2010 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Frankie picked off Bernadina!!!
BECAUSE THE METS HATE WILLIE HARRIS!!!
[Just a Nats fan’s point of view. Congrats guys for possessing a major league pitcher besides your ace. We’re Strasburg and dudes waiting to fall off of a BABIP cliff.]
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park.
Just a reminder
the Mets have yet to play an inning against:
Pittsburgh, Arizona and Houston.
That is all.
It's a game of redeeming features. ~ Bob Murphy
Stupid Interleague play
We should HAVE to play those teams a minimum of 12 times!
no arguments we finally got a reasonably balanced interleague schedule
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Jul 2, 2010 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions
2 series against the yankees is still a pain
and not even extra exciting
stats, they are seriously never in Francoeur's favor
yeah but yankees twins indians and orioles gives us a decent mix of good and bad
its more fair than when we’d get the Yankees, Sox, Rays, and O’s last year. That was 3 very difficult teams to play in IL, and we usually seemed to get a mix more like that.
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Jul 3, 2010 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions
That's a good point
But it’d be fun to pad our numbers on the NL Central every year.
arizona will be like the brewers
and have their bullpen show up, or not show up whichever, for the three games we play them.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
That CG pissed the fack out of me.
And seriously what does Jerry have against CG. I wanted to see Santana beast out there.
We're either going to be really bad or really good against Strasburg tomorrow
I hope it’s the latter. It does suck that the national tv jack*sses take the game. I hate listening to their commentary.
I hope Dickey wins that pitchers duel
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Jul 2, 2010 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions
or we're going to be ok
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
Take advantage of his pitch count
Dickey can keep the score low. Meanwhile, bench Frency and Rod so every batter will see at least 3 pitches per AB.
Good point on French and Rod.
How about an Orange Monster at Citi Field for Bay?
by Mets-Suns-Texans on Jul 2, 2010 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Excellent, excellent point.
I shall now send my terrorist spies out to the Mets hotel to sequester Jerry Manuel from reading this post.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park.
The internet is just a series of tubes
all you need to do is redirect them from the hotel or form some type of rudimentary clog…. not that Jerry knows how to use this newfangled technology.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
How many times will the Mets K against Stras tomorrow?
I’d say 8 to 10.
How about an Orange Monster at Citi Field for Bay?
by Mets-Suns-Texans on Jul 2, 2010 11:34 PM EDT reply actions
10
the nats will pull him after 5 innings
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
Now, now.
Many would say, we hurt the Mets and helped the Braves by leaving in to hit for himself with runners on base so he could only absorb the loss in his last start. Riggles is really trying to use him an ace or stopper role as much as possible. He had an outside chance of pitching 8 innings in his last start with the low pitch count until he struggled to start the 7th and his defense let him down.
On a desperate search for Sunshine at Nats Park.
lol 8 is best case scenario
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
At least 10
Minimum:
2 Pitcher’s spot
2 DWright
2 Ike
2 Frenchy
2 Rod, 1 Hank White
1 Tejada
strasburgs a righty too
crap
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
only 2 for frenchy?
yeah right
stats, they are seriously never in Francoeur's favor
its hard to strike out
when you’re too busy grounding and popping out
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
sure, almost every major leaguer strikes out less than 50% of the time
but it will be impossible for him to make contact v stras
stats, they are seriously never in Francoeur's favor
If I thought Strasburg would be in long enough to pitch to Frenchy a 4th time
Than I might call for the golden sombrero. 2Ks in 3 ABs is a realistic assumption. 3Ks isn’t crazy talk though.
That's realistic
and it’s more of a testament to how awesome Strasburg is rather than our lineup
There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ
The 2010 Mets- Hey, we may suck, but what did you expect?
it will be an alien who throws it
so we’ll get an asterisk =/
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
this alien
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
Whoa, is that real or photoshopped?
If the former, god bless minor league ball.
I think it's photoshopped
because there’s different versions with other random characters standing next to him.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
Hush you
Don’t squash my dreams of Chewbacca throwing the first pitch out for the Isotopes or Durham Bulls.
I'd love to see it too
but that’s one of the inferior (read: shorter) Wookiees, possibly as described in Timothy Zahn’s Heir to the Empire
Pretty sure it's real
Don’t remember where I saw it though, maybe on the stupid “Not Top 10 Plays”.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
never
if the diamondbacks can throw two in their crappy existence we are doomed
I hate Philadelphia so much.
What bugs the most about the 9th
We all know Feliciano should really only be pitching to lefties. Yet in recent games, Jerry has left him in to face righties in some fairly high leverage situations. Tonight, in a fairly low leverage situation, he takes Feliciano out after retiring one lefty to have a righty/righty matchup. This is bizarro bullpen management.
maybe the last few nights of fail made him warry
im sure in a few weeks he’ll be back to the madness.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
Wait for it...
He doesn’t want to over pitch him. Ho Ho.
Can I re-iterate how much THE MARLINS SUCK?
What a massive fail of a team that is. They only seem to lose against Teams that DON’T help the Mets in the standings whatsoever.
The way things are going, we’ll have to sweat it out and try to get the Wildcard in the end. geez.
I hate going for the Wildcard because you end up rooting against like 6 teams a night
that you wouldn’t normally even know who their #4 starter is.
Wildcard? Are you serious? Let's be realistic for just a second...
This team is going to win the division by 15 games!
There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ
The 2010 Mets- Hey, we may suck, but what did you expect?
Well, I guess
if we want something done right, we’re gonna have to do it ourselves.
2010: Year of the Grission
Stay positive buck
Sure, we’re unlucky in the standings and the rest of the division is not helping us out. But ya gotta believe. If our guys can healthy or if we could get a difference maker like Cliff Lee our team has the chance to be the best in the NL East.
I honestly don’t want to settle for the Wildcard, but making the postseason and owning the other guy from our division would rock.
Probably means nothing, but man, them Phils are falling faster than we'd thought.
Also, they have some schmo named Brian Bocock on the team now. Who?
2010: Year of the Grission
No! Brian! Those chicken wings are really spicy! Don't eat those!
I’ve never seen a man eat so many chicken wings!
2010: Year of the Grission
For the record
This write-up is straight from the top drawer. The cynicism burns my eyes but in an entirely realistic and helpful way. Never forget that Jerrybot is eeeeevil.
What are we supposed to talk about?
Jerry being an idiot or how Niese is blossoming into a quality pitcher before our eyes? We’re Met fans, so of course it’s Jerry.
I just had a horrible nightmare
Jon Niese and R.A. Dickey were sent down so Maine and Perez could go back into the rotation.
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
Hope Dessens bad outing doesn't derail him
he has pitched awesome since the call up, but I worry one bad night may lead to a few. Parnell is hot right now, pitch him 2 innings.
Wright looking like his old self.
When is Bay going to put together a string of games with RBIs
K-rod didn’t get any batters out, I am worried
Went to the game last night
On the bright side, that’s 8 in a row that I’ve seen the Mets win here in DC in person. Unfortunately what should have been a really enjoyable evening was slightly (not totally) ruined by more idiotic bullpen management. I actually never really worried that they’d give the lead up, but I still simmered over the game 7 of the World Series attitude for a July 2 game against the Nats where they’re up by 4.
Still, great game by Niese and Wright. They rocked.
After the game, Jerry claimed not to know the save rule
Anyone else hear that? Someone asked (and I’m paraphrasing) if he waited until tying run was on deck to bring in Frankie because it was and save situation and the moron replied “I’m not sure about how that works. I just go with what I think is best for the team.”
Now, that is complete and utter bullshit. Jerry is one of the stupidest people to ever put on a uniform, but it’s so disingenuous for him to pretend he doesn’t manage to this statistic. It just blows my mind that he thinks it’s better to plead ignorance to a basic tenet of the game instead.
A basic tenant of the game?
I thought we just got done saying it’s stupid and we should put it out of our minds. Why this thread is focussed on Jerry bashing I have no idea. I don’t like the guy either, but it’s getting to be a psychosis!
by Pack Bringley on Jul 3, 2010 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This
Time to give it a rest. The guy is aggravating, sure, but there’s no reason why this couldn’t have been a Niesentric recap. No one forced anyone into anything.
by tmu on Jul 3, 2010 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Like it or not, the save rule is pretty basic...
and a pretty large part of the game. .
And that’s really not the point either. The point is it’s ridiculous to manage to a stat all year and then claim not to understand how the stat works.
by Bieser's Balk on Jul 3, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Am I crazy...
for thinking of dumping AJ Burnett from my fantasy team and picking up Niese?
Probably.
not at all Burnett is lost at this point
he might turn it around but I wouldn’t say it’s more likely than Niese being just as effective down the stretch.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
since you brought up fantasy, let me ask this
Is Reuben Tejda totally useless as a fantasy player? In a NL only league, I might add.
NL and AL only leagues are always iffy
If you have a hole at SS or MI then you could do worse than take a flyer on Tejada. It would think it would be more of a short term move though.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
tough to trade ?
niese is pitching so good that if they do have the guts to make a deal for lee and oswalt. i think they are going to want niese instead of meija in the trade .
lohaus #54
im sure they'd prefer reyes to tejada too
that doesn’t really change anything though.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
Yeah, It seemed like Seattle wanted Niese over Mejia a few weeks ago
Probably because Niese is here now (and doing well-to-very well) whereas it’ll take Mejia at least a year to be ML ready, if not longer.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
maybe if we throw in Meija, F-mart, and Niese
someone will take him off our hands.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
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