Despairing Applesauce - Mets drop series in Arizona, Cora flips out, chemistry to blame
by Joe Budd on Jul 21, 2010 9:03 AM EDT
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It was fun while it lasted. The competitive meaningful games were a pleasant surprise, but it may be time to recognize this as a .500 team with significant hopes for the future. Alex Cora, on the other hand, doesn't want to wait and does his own Captain Red Ass impersonation.
Predictably, the Mets have come to terms with Chad Cordero.
Why is Rod Barajas still playing when the Mets have got Blanco playing so well?
Ramon Ortiz had a strong start for Buffalo last night, still sporting a 5+ ERA. I'm pretty excited though about Cory Vaughn.
Clearly, the problem with the Mets during this slide is the team's chemistry.
Around MLB
The Phillies are showing significant interest in Roy Oswalt and seem to be willing to part with Jayson Werth as part of the deal. The Astros, however, seem to be wishing for the moon for Oswalt.
Washington has signed Cuban pitcher Yuneski Maya, a player the Mets had shown interest in.
Lou Piniella can't take it anymore.
Jason Kendall's bat speaks.
Outside Baseball
The New York Times has a feature on the world's greatest horseshoe pitcher who gets ringers 90% of the time.
Behind the Net uses statistics to calculate the most ironic neighborhoods in the country.
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ZOMG! WE'RE 0-5 WITH BELTRAN IN THE LINEUP!
Traid Beltrong!
Oh, the butcher and the baker and the people on the street: wheredotheygo?!?!?
I agree
It’s the chemistry, the lineup hasn’t been the same with Beltran in the lineup, but i wouldn’t trade him………….who would the mets get?
That we're 0-5 with Beltran in the lineup
is a fact. Just not a particularly significant one, we think.
We can’t necessarily poo-poo the “chemistry” excuse yet (i.e., for hurting the team, generally, and not for the last five games.) I don’t think it has anything to do with Beltran, but Castillo joining the team always seems to harpoon us. Not sure why.
More significant problem — Bay not giving us much. Davis and Wright not hitting at the same time. Nothing from Barajas and whomeever plays second. No “clutch” hits. Pelfrey drizzling excrement all over the mound. I’d like to think this mini-slump is an unfortunate confluence of shit starting and shit hitting not having the good sense to show up on the same day, plus a team that just doesn’t handle west coast trips with aplomb.
As I said last night
And as Metstradamus pointed out, if the Mets team chemistry is actually affected by the return of good players like Beltran, then they deserve to lose. The idea that Rod Barajas can’t hit because Luis Castillo is coming back to the lineup is absurd.
And yes, the Mets are 0-5 with Beltran in the lineup. I also walk around with a rock that keeps tigers away, and I haven’t been attacked by a tiger once in my life. Obviously there’s a connection.
"They deserve to lose"
this is kind of stupid. If they’re winning, who cares why?
The point is . . .
If they’re such a bunch of crybaby whiners that the presence of some guys they don’t like actually causes them to play worse, then they deserve to lose.
But I also don’t buy the narrative. This chemistry thing is a joke, or I guess we’ll just glide over half of the world champions from the 1970s. The reason the Mets are losing is because half the lineup can’t seem to hit right now, and a 2/5 of their rotation is a mess.
Chemistry
Doesn’t mean the team are buddies. It means they’re competitors. Look at the ’86 Mets.
Obviously they lose on the field because of things that happen on the field. But there are reasons things happen on the field.
I can understand if the team was having bust ups
Like Bonds and Kent very publically feuding in the dugout.
This is not the case, nor is the joking, etc. happening during games. These guys are all competitors and they can motivate themselves. They are professionals for a reason
so we just assume
that they are all perfectly self-motivated at all times? that seems like a convenient way to sweep uncertainty under a rug.
No, obviously not. Since they are human beings.
But, this is their job..which they do pretty well. They got to the majors by being very talented competitors.
Right
and when you’re competing at the very, very highest level, I’d imagine every cog of the machine has to be working perfectly to win — physically and mentally.
that would be a good point
except clearly the least of their problems is the clubhouse.
it should be pointed out in 1992 when that happened
the giants won 95 games
I like Ike, I hate Jerry
Lisa, I want to buy your rock.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jul 21, 2010 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
ha
maybe I should read all the way through before posting. :)
by SoCal Metfan on Jul 21, 2010 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
correlation DOES NOT equal causation
this is a concept not smart people have difficulty grasping
by Mike Clemente on Jul 21, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
He's better than Nieve
"I want to win now, not 3 years from now. That's my stance." - Kevin Burkhardt
except he probably won't replace Nieve
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
To paraphrase a post from a few days ago:
Tom Seaver is a better pitcher than Fernando Nieve. Not Seaver from when he pitched. Seaver right now. At age 65.
From Fred to Jeff
and O to Jerr
Funny things
Are everywhere
- Dr. Seuss (if he were a Mets fan)
well
i don’t why everyone is so pissed. the mets SUCK on the road, have all year, even when they are playing well. the only exceptions were the double a franchises in the orioles and indians. yes, arizona sucks too, but they have a bunch of good, young players (young, upton, drew, montero, etc.) so should be better than they are.
and secondly, at the start of the year noone thought the mets would be above five hundred and close to the wild card at this point.
low expectations is what it is about as a mets fan. makes this season, and other seasons, much more enjoyable. just enjoy the ride.
and as johnny depp as hunter s. thompson said, “Calm Down. Learn to Enjoy Losing”
Let’s Go Mets!
by brodeur hearts avery on Jul 21, 2010 9:30 AM EDT reply actions
FUCK that shit.
I’m fucking sick of it.
Oh, the butcher and the baker and the people on the street: wheredotheygo?!?!?
Especially for a team in the largest market in the country.
If the Yankees and their payroll ceased to exist, the Red Sox would be the dominant team in the AL. Since there is no equivalent to the Yankees in the NL, the Mets should be just as dominant in their own league.
Bullshit
Enjoying losing is for losers. I want no part of any “lovable losers” labels. Take that shit to the Cubs.
i belive yankee fans feel the same way.
I am a fan of both the mets and knicks... so just kill me now.
thats silly, just because MSM didn't have hopes for us
i had hopes coming into this season. this team wasnt much different than the team everyone picked the year before to make it to the WS. the rotation had 2 shitty pieces but the pen and lineup had the potential to be even better
I like Ike, I hate Jerry
I disagree
for one picking us to go to the WS last year was insane. For 2, it was a lot different.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
about the WS, yeah, but just saying about the no one had hopes part
i had expectations this team would be competitive all season. losing beltran for half the year hurt those expectations some, but i expected us to at least compete for wild card all year considering the openness of that race every year
I like Ike, I hate Jerry
Cora showing his heart and passion yet again
STFU and do something on the field.
by HotChipWillBreakYourLegs on Jul 21, 2010 9:30 AM EDT reply actions
Exactly..
he is supposed to be the veteran voice and I was glad to read that he told Pelf to shut it. Guess what Big Pelf, last 4 or 5 starts, you have sucked and have no business yacking it up with anyone. Wipe that s*** eating grin off your face I saw last night. This team just got embarassed by a sub .500 team and a rookie on that team no less. Right now, these guys make me sick.
So Pelfrey isn't allowed to smile until he has a good start?
We don’t know what actually happened, what pelf was laughing about, if he was laughing, whatevs.
The act of Cora and players like cora rubs me the wrong way. If I had a shitty day at work or did poorly on an exam, and some charismatic shithead told me I wasn’t allowed to laugh the next day, I’d tell him to suck my balls.
by HotChipWillBreakYourLegs on Jul 21, 2010 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Great, do that if some charismatic shithead talks to you that way.
Just don’t assume that your reaction and your instincts have anything to do with building a winning baseball team.
What does having Cora as a backup to Luis Castillo
have to do with building a winning team? Cora is part of the problem, not part of the solution.
Disagree
I take it that you did not compete in competitive sports that much. When I was playing football, baseball, rugby and I had a “bad day” my teammates and/or coach let me know it. Crap, if I had a game where I fumbled 2 or 3 times/struck out 3x in a game, etc, and would go back to the locker room with a smile on my face, I would have been torn a new hole! So, yeah, dude has a bad day on the mound and laughing it up while the team is skidding post-all star, better believe as a teammate, I would be in his face. I don’t care the situation. Get your crap together, figure out why you cannot locate a fastball, don’t bother with reporters. I think what Cora did was be a good teammate, bringing people back down to Earth a bit. Reality is, the way this team is playing, going to be under .500 real quick. Granted, the Mets are probably about a .500 team, but shouldn’t they strive for better than just settling for average?
by CCE718 on Jul 21, 2010 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Terrible
The “you didn’t play the game so you wouldn’t know” argument.
by James Kannengieser on Jul 21, 2010 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Yeah...
what about it? Baseball is a game. It is not a 9-5 M-F employment in business, healthcare, school, etc. Locker rooms are different than an office, at least my office. My main point was that teammates are supposed to get in the face of someone who is not performing their best. I am sure Cora got rubbed the wrong way because of Pelfrey’s laughter with a reporter. Guess what, Cora has a WS ring. How many Mets can say that right now? He may not perform, but he has the experience of being a champion.
Do it privately
And who cares if Cora has a ring. He was still nothing more than a role player on the Sox.
You're forgetting that key bunt he laid down in the World Series
If he hadn’t, the Sox might have only won that game 9-5. Since he’s a winner, they won 10-5.
Okay...
so 1 other dude on the team. I didn’t know that we, as fans, had to police the inner-workings of teammates in the locker rooms. This is why I think the media should be banned from them. Dudes are going to yell at each other, that’s sports. If this was Wright yelling at Pelfrey, you all would probably have no problem with it whatsoever. Because it is Cora, it is an issue. At least Cora is speaking up.
I wrote in another thread
If Wright did it, I wouldn’t be happy either. Won’t speak for others here though.
Dudes can yell at each other all they want, I don’t mind that aspect. What I don’t care for is doing it in front of a gaggle of reporters who will share that information with the masses in a few seconds.
by James Kannengieser on Jul 21, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree with that...
That is why I said that reporters shouldn’t be in the lockerroom. They can get the quotes outside of it. And look, Cora had an outburst, it happens, and we as the fans are reading way too much into it.
That was pretty much all I was trying to say
Glad you agree. I wasn’t trying to say intangibles mean nothing or leadership is stupid. Just that I don’t think Cora is deserving of praise for what he did.
by James Kannengieser on Jul 21, 2010 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
And that is where...
I disagree with you slightly. I am glad someone on this team said something. Lets me know that they are aware of the skid since the all star break. Look, I coach. I rarely yell, but sometimes, it just comes out. When I do yell on the very rare occassion, the players know that something led to that. They don’t take it personally, but they take it seriously. I am just hoping that is the road being travelled by Cora. So, we agree on the importance of leadership, just disagree on how leadership can be exhibited.
Weak!
All I’m saying is that if you replace Cora’s whiny little emo-fest with Henry Blanco stepping up to the reporters and yelling, “Does Hank White have to cut a bitch?!!!”, this all ends much, much faster.
"It’s like being in love with an alcoholic. It’s like, you constantly defend her, and people are like, ‘Dude, your alcoholic friend is a mess,’ and you’re like, ‘Nah, you don’t know her like I do."- Jim Breuer
by spaceboy761 on Jul 21, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
The image of Hank chasing Andy Martino
through the streets of downtown Phoenix with a switchblade just might redeem this roadtrip.
"It’s like being in love with an alcoholic. It’s like, you constantly defend her, and people are like, ‘Dude, your alcoholic friend is a mess,’ and you’re like, ‘Nah, you don’t know her like I do."- Jim Breuer
I agree wth CCE 100%
Who cares what the reporters report. I always thought that players dont read the papers. If they are, then they got more problems then we thought.
Cora is one of the leaders on this team. Like it or not. Every player always says it, and its pretty well known. He has been in the league forever, and while his skills have deteriorated and we can all agree he is getting too many ab’s, he has been around the block many times. His voice is respected.
I am a fan of both the mets and knicks... so just kill me now.
My problem with Cora's outburst,
and again this is just my “interpretation”, is that it reeks of showing off for the media.
Sure, he’s pissed, I get that – I would be too. You can’t wait an hour to call a team meeting? OK, then pull Pelf aside and close a door right there.
This is a team, and you take care of team shit in-house.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
by Ogre39666 on Jul 21, 2010 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
but can you imagine what the media would be writing
if he pulled pelf aside into a private room?
Knowing the NY media it would prob be about how Cora and Pelf are more then friends.
and again I ask… who cares about the media? since when do they matter? The players should not be reading the papers anyway.
I am a fan of both the mets and knicks... so just kill me now.
Oh boy, they probably would do a "Piazza-esque" storyline
But just because the players don’t read the papers (does anyone anymore?), doesn’t mean they should air-out all of their dirty laundry in front of them.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
one outburst
does not make an air-out of all their dirty laundry.
I am a fan of both the mets and knicks... so just kill me now.
this is where i disagree
at this level players are smart and confident and shouldnt need one person to be a leader or bring intangibles. unless by intangibles you mean the unexpected results a jose valentin brought to the 2006 team
I like Ike, I hate Jerry
you have unrealistic ideals for your players
they are normal people who are skilled at baseball.
I am a fan of both the mets and knicks... so just kill me now.
They aren't normal people
they are super-ultra-competitive people who are very determined individuals. If they weren’t they wouldn’t be major leaguers.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
there are many super-ultra-competive people
not playing baseball.
I am a fan of both the mets and knicks... so just kill me now.
They're obviously super-talented as well
but super-ultra-completive people who are also immensely driven AND super-talented are very rare.
The point is they are not “normal people”.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
this
some of the best athletes I know are incredibly passive and uncompetitive. And some of the worst athletes I know are the opposite. Making it to the major leagues has some to do with determination, it has about 1000x more to do with physical ability and talent.
Just for example Vince Young is known for being a hard worker but he’s also known for just not being all that enthralled with football/winning. He gives it 100% because it’s his job but by most reports he never had any interest in playing in the NFL, he just wanted a free education and was literally too good for his own good.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
its unrealistic to think that the reason they made it
was because they knew they could make it, were smart enough to work hard and learn the skills they would need at the highest level, and were generally the best player on their team, so often looked at as a leader themselves
I like Ike, I hate Jerry
i imagine they made it
cause they were blessed with insane athletic ability. That doesn’t necessarily imply intelligence or that they didn’t/don’t need pushing. I think there’s been enough examples of moronic athletes who act like little kids and need to be reigned in by coaches to show that.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
Even in those immature cases
they are almost alway driven in 1 aspect of their lives; working out or training. Take TO for example. I doubt anyone would call him “mature” or “well put together” but he is extremely focused in at least one area of his life, training.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
yeah but TO is an extreme case
since he’s also known for being one of the most training obsessive players in the NFL.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
My point is
that the vast majority of professional athletes not normal people. They area the perfect storm of super-ultra-talented, super-ultra competitive, and immensely driven.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
I disagree
the vast majority are a perfect storm of physical talent and people around them smart enough to get them to harvest it.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
I don't think you're giving pro-athletes enough credit.
What you described might be enough for college stars or AA stars, but not to make it all the way to the big-time.
Of course luck has a say in this too, but that can also go back to being able to seize opportunity.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
I think you are giving them too much credit
I know a lot of people who are extraordinarily dedicated to certain aspects of their lives. Some put tons and tons of time into their fraternities, or student government, or schoolwork, or their friends, or whatever. I know people at work who are absolute experts in their field. They are still “ordinary” people. The typical athlete doesn’t work any harder at his profession than some of the people I know work at theirs.
The deification of athletes on this website is sometimes a little absurd.
2009 Did Not Happen
insane athletic ability yes
but also being really smart when it comes to knowing themselves, their bodies and how to work hard to get what they want.
I like Ike, I hate Jerry
I don't see how that is really smart
almost everyone does and is capable of that. It’s not different than someone who wants to be a teacher or lawyer or what have you.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
i guess i mean work hard to get the physical results
i know plenty of kids who didnt have the predetermined physical ability to be big and strong but who worked hard and mixed the right combination of training and supplementing to get really big
I like Ike, I hate Jerry
yeah i do too
i just don’t see how that’s somehow magically different from working hard at something else? Or how that somehow differentiates athletes from regular people. I know plenty of regular people who get big and strong too.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
just saying, they are smart at that
plus, this is baseball, david eckstein and joe mcewing made it to the pros. alex freaking cora. being the best athlete doesn’t always matter, ben johnson was supposed to be one of the best and he couldnt cut it. mostly i was just saying it takes smarts and self-confidence to make it to the big leagues.
I like Ike, I hate Jerry
David Eckstein
was probably the most talented player on every single baseball team he ever played for growing up. Just because he’s not as talented as Albert Pujols doesn’t mean he isn’t talented, period. And he’s actually a phenomenal athlete, he’s just not a “great” baseball player (though I do think the Eckstein hate is a little overboard – dude put up a 5.5 WAR season in 2002).
2009 Did Not Happen
I just want to say
“He may not perform, but he has the experience of being a champion” is one of the most hilarious sentences I have yet seen on this site.
The experience of being champion
is nonsense.
by SoCal Metfan on Jul 21, 2010 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
At least he was an actual Captain.
In a sport where the C actually means something.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
Sure
But he never won anything when he was an actual captain. He wasn’t the captain at BU when they won the NCAA championship, and he wasn’t the captain for the Avs when they won the Cup. Maybe he was the captain of his Little League World Series team, I don’t know.
As a Buffalo Sabres fan and someone who follows the NYR, I could go into detail on this
but I leave it at this unless you want to go on a tangent (I’m willing, just not sure everyone else wants to have yet another big tangent in yet another thread):
Drury was more a victim of circumstance. He was the perfect player/leader for Buffalo and their system was perfect for him. He was offered a big contract (more than what he really should have received) that he would never be able to live up to from his favorite childhood team, NYR; but it’s not his fault he was offered that deal.
And just because he never won a Cup as Captain doesn’t mean he wasn’t a good/great leader. He went to the Conference Finals twice with Buffalo (and one of those times they had only 2 regular D-men not injured and still playing).
Save Jenrry Mejia!
jason marquis had made the playoffs for like 9 straight years
guess that makes him a winner. just because people were around for playoffs or WS or have rings, doesnt make them better at baseball or more knowledgeable of what needs to be done
I like Ike, I hate Jerry
But Cora never performs well
So doesn’t the give Pelf the right to tell Cora to go fuck himself since he had 8 really good starts?
where is firejerrynow
we need his brother to weigh in
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
agree with james
we all played sports growing up, some seriously into HS or college, dont throw that ‘we dont know what we are talking about’ shit at us
I like Ike, I hate Jerry
No offense, but I remember all that crap from competitive sports,
especially high school. On a bus ride home after a road loss no one was allowed to speak. Apparently there was something wrong with feeling bad about losing unless you felt badly in a very precise, specific, predetermined way, like a trained dog.
All it did was teach us that our coach was a childish asshole who imposed rules of conduct that really didn’t have anything to do with anything. Maybe smiling after a loss is symptomatic of something, but maybe it isn’t. I’ve seen people who are truly grieving laugh immediately after a funeral. This idea that there is only one way to behave in response to an event, a win, a loss, is ludicrous.
Like I said, no offense. I’m not aiming this at you particularly.
correct...
until you play well…you can’t say shit about anything
by Mike Clemente on Jul 21, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
can't tell if this is serious or not?
he’s getting paid 2 mil to be a shitty hitter and go rabble rabble rabble once in a while?
Screw that.
When he contributes more to winning he can bitch about losing.
by SoCal Metfan on Jul 21, 2010 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree this is what th eteamneeds
and he does perform with RISP
by Rickfansince76 on Jul 21, 2010 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
meh
Cora’s career OPS: .653
Cora’s career OPS, RISP: .689
So, congratulations Alex, you’re slightly less shitty with RISP.
(Yes, he has been very good with RISP this year, but it’s all of 45 plate appearances, hardly demonstrative of some magical clutch ability.)
by JoshNY on Jul 21, 2010 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
this is why we pay him all that money?
well then why cant we officially label him coach or manager and use his spot for someone who can still play baseball
I like Ike, I hate Jerry
Agree
Keep that stuff away from the beat writers. They have enough fodder for their “chemistry” columns.
Personally, if I was on the team and Cora said that to me I’d tell him to screw off, but I’m kind of a dick. He’s no leader. Leaders are good players, or formerly good players. Not overpaid replacement level scrubs.
by James Kannengieser on Jul 21, 2010 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions
I would love to mouth off back to Cora.
Darrelle Revis once won a game of Connect Four in three moves.
It seems like
he might have been yelling AT the reporters (at least partially). That might be why he brought up respect.
With all due respect
You don’t know what you’re talking about. Isn’t that the whole problem people having with talking about “chemistry” — that we don’t know what we’re talking about? I know some sabermetricians fancy themselves debunkers of decades of baseball lore, but this is where the arrogance shows up. Former players and coaches will generally tell you that that kind of clubhouse leadership is important.
And if the players don’t think about wOBA, and such, but instead value “grission,” then the more “grissiony” players are going to be better leaders, I would think, because it’s about perception.
by tmu on Jul 21, 2010 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
What does this have to do with sabermetrics?
Or “debunking baseball lore”? I didn’t say clubhouse leadership is unimportant — I said that Cora screaming out to show respect is not the way to go about it. Take Pelfrey, or whoever it is, aside and tell that maybe it’s not the right time to be joking. Don’t give David Lennon and co. fodder for their columns and Tweeters. Be discrete.
Also, you don’t have to turn everything into sabermetrics vs. old-school on every topic. Doesn’t really apply here and It’s becoming tiresome.
by James Kannengieser on Jul 21, 2010 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
What other explanation would there be
for someone ignoring so much of the lore surrounding baseball? And how do you know the proper way to go about showing leadership in a Major League clubhouse? It wouldn’t great if the “you’ve never played” argument were total bullshit, but it’s not. Unfortunately, we have to rely hear on imperfect information — anecdote and such coming from the likes of Tim McCarver.
If I'm "wrong" for saying it's not the proper way to go about it
Then anyone here saying it’s the “right” way is also wrong, given that they presumably do not know the proper way to go about showing leadership in a MLB clubhouse.
by James Kannengieser on Jul 21, 2010 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
We rely on imperfect information
which is what we read and see from various sources with some experience. My guess is that different teams take on different personalities, and different motivations will work for different players. We don’t know much, but it’s probably safe to assume that Cora knows better.
It may be
that Cora just got pissed by it and vocalized it.
Pelfrey’s bad start was the day before, so i don’t think he needs to wear sack cloth and ashes. Nevertheless, no laughter in a losing clubhouse, especially after a poor stretch of several games, is a general rule it appears.
I don’t think it’ll bother Pelfrey much.
This kinda reminds me of the Phil Linz harmonica incident. You weren’t supposed to be light-hearted after a big loss. of course that was 1964 and the yankees were on the verge of a decade of suckitude. Which was more from a lack of talent then not having the Yankee ’tude.
And I actually agree with that
For all we know, Pelfrey is the kind of guy who won’t react well to what Cora did.
I imagine the lore is ignored
because baseball is a bunch of 1 on 1 match ups. I could understand the argument in football somewhat, and DEFINITELY understand it in basketball. But it just makes no sense in baseball. I’m not worse at my job because I have to work with a creepy old dude.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
by Gina on Jul 21, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
thats not true
if you had to work next to and with a creepy old dude, or a person that you get along with great… your work would of course be effected.
Thats why companies like starbucks and google make the office experience as fun as possible. They do it so their workers are happy. Happy workers are productive workers.
I am a fan of both the mets and knicks... so just kill me now.
Well. it's their belief that the happy stuff works
It’s more likely that higher pay works better though.
this
if someone was paying me 1 million + i’d work to the creepiest oldest dude alive happilly
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
its not about choice
and more specifically its not about that choice.
A pro ball player will get paid to work with whoever. He is not getting the money to put up with his teammates. He is getting paid to play baseball as best he can.
By not only focusing on the skills of a player but also the makeup of the man and how he will mesh with his teammates, you are putting them in a better position to succeed.
The choice isnt if you will take 1 mil to work with a creepy old dude. These choice is if you would work better next to a creepy old dude or next to someone that you worked well with. The money is the same in both situations but one will produce better work weather you want it to or not.
I am a fan of both the mets and knicks... so just kill me now.
by gbaked on Jul 21, 2010 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
So he screamed out...
at least someone on this team is showing life. Maybe his actions make you uncomfortable, but just consider that Cora knows Pelfrey better than us and knows how to get his attention.
who cares about the press
the players shouldnt be reading the papers anyway.
I am a fan of both the mets and knicks... so just kill me now.
yeah the people who are regarded for their ability to do that stuff bring up its importance
you look at someone like jeff kent, he was usually on a winner because he was really great, not for any unifying, grissiony, leadership. this team probably has good ‘chemistry’ right now because everyone is getting along as evidenced by stories of card games and most everyone laughing even in the middle of a possibly crippling road tripping, yet they ARE sucking right now. if you have a group of 25 talented players who know their roles and execute what they are asked, that team is going to be one of the best in the league. this current mets team has chemistry but maybe half of the team is talented enough and has performed enough that they should still be around.
‘chemistry’ is just something reporters give team credit for when they are playing well and claim a team is lacking when they are losing. it seems ny beat reporters focus on this more than i read about other teams, possibly because they just need something to write about
I like Ike, I hate Jerry
what about teams that over and under preform
is that not because of team chemistry?
And by the time you get to the playoffs, all the teams are very talented. The World Series generally have two of the best teams in the league in terms of talent. What is it that separates them?
I am a fan of both the mets and knicks... so just kill me now.
Luck is a much more probable answer than chemistry
and for the playoffs, having that luck (or most everyone on a semi-hot streak at the same time) at the right time.
That’s not to totally discount chemistry and team make-up however, just that it’s probably one of the smallest contributers to “great” teams.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
luck is withouth a doubt a component
i just dont think you can completely remove motivation.
I am a fan of both the mets and knicks... so just kill me now.
exactly
someone like frenchy is supposed to bring good chemistry, but his last team got way better when he left and the mets would be way better to this point without him in RF. chemistry may be something, in my experience it didnt matter much, good players is whats important
I like Ike, I hate Jerry
i will never argue that good players are not what is important
just that along with good statistical skills, having the skills to work with your teammates and make people around you better is also valuable.
I am a fan of both the mets and knicks... so just kill me now.
Chemisty isn't totally worthless
But a dime isn’t worthless either, it’s just pales in comparison to the twenty dollar bill of being good at baseball.
/metaphor
by SoCal Metfan on Jul 21, 2010 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
this is where we disagree
I think that how a person effects those around him is worth more then 0.5% of what makes that person successful. Especially when one is on a team.
I am a fan of both the mets and knicks... so just kill me now.
I could see your argument if the team we're talking about
is a hockey, football, or rugby team.
But baseball is a different animal, IMO; It’s a static, non-physical contact game of isolated 1-on-1 match-ups. How much you like the other guy isn’t going to make you swing the bat any harder, catch the ball batter, or throw any more accurately.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
like isnt the right word
motivate is more like it.
Tennis is 1 on 1 match ups. Baseball is played by teams.
Chess is a 1 on 1 match up.
Baseball, like football and hockey, require a team to win. You can get on base as much as you like, but without your teammate you wont get home. You can pitch as best you can but without your fielders you wont get any defense. Unless a pitcher wins with 27ks his team helped him out.
The ability to motivate your teammates is an ability that not every person has.
I am a fan of both the mets and knicks... so just kill me now.
yeah but when you're at the plate
your team mate isn’t going to have an affect, or shouldn’t. It’s not like they need their team mate to pass them the ball. If the team mate performs the way he should in each individual match up they should score. Whether or not someone did their job correctly before him doesn’t directly affect him.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
yea, agreed
BUT, it could come down to simply enjoying coming to work every day. If you play for a crappy losing team where nobody gets along, I don’t care how much money you make or how much you dreamed of being a big leaguer, the season is really going to drain on you and you’re probably not going to play your best baseball, and vice versa. I do think a great team performance can lift individual player performances (see: Brosius, Scott, 1998).
Obviously, winning builds chemistry and losing destroys it. I think that’s the most important single factor involved in “chemistry.” But having the right mix of players who complement each other in the clubhouse can help or hinder. The ‘86 Mets didn’t get along, but I think they were fueled by each other – they wanted to beat each other up, and took that aggression out on the rest of the NL.
2009 Did Not Happen
depends on why they are over or underperforming
if they are because it is not what MSM expected of them, which is generally the only reason, then i dont think chemistry has anything to do with it. if a team that is over/under performing over a short period of time than it is probably a lot of luck/unluck. if a team was relying on some superstar to carry them and he was off to a slow start then that team would probably be underperforming for awhile
I like Ike, I hate Jerry
i think we can all agree that generally, the
MSM has no idea what they are talking about. And that applies to all things, not just sports.
I am a fan of both the mets and knicks... so just kill me now.
then i dont know by what other bar you would measure under/over performing
I like Ike, I hate Jerry
projectons?
things like baseruns? or pythag?
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
you mean at the beginning of a season or the end
like what those projections expected of them or what they were projected to do before season. i guess i was going off the assumption gbaked meant expectations projected before the season
I like Ike, I hate Jerry
if a team does significantly better/worse than end of year projections
i guess it is possible that chemistry played a role for better/worse, but its also possible luck affected them that one year like maybe a managers decisions in close games made the difference in a lot of games.
if you are talking about preseason projections, i would think its not hard to believe that a few players over/under performed what was expected just because they were having a career year or awful year
I like Ike, I hate Jerry
teams that have great statistical players that dont win the WS
or teams that dont have the great stats and do win.
I am a fan of both the mets and knicks... so just kill me now.
what teams haven't had great statistical players and have won?
in the last like 20 years? Maybe the White Sox but all their players were oddly great for one year and then went back to their mediocrity.
Not to mention consdering how hard it is to win a WS in general, and the fact that other variables play a role, like payroll considering half of the last 15 ws have gone to the yankees or red sox, and front office etc how exactly would that measure anything?
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
the cards were considered a poor team that won it all no?
I am a fan of both the mets and knicks... so just kill me now.
they still had carpenter, pujols, rolen, edmonds
not to mention eckstein, and some insane pitching performance from suppan and weaver, and random clutchiness from yadier molina and scott spezio
I like Ike, I hate Jerry
if they were they shouldn't have been
they were near the top of the NL for most of the summer and then went 25-31 to finish the season.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
also they kind of had albert pujols
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
that had a bunch of players with OPS under .700
baseball is a game of 1 on 1 matchups, so its hard for a single player to win a world series.
I am a fan of both the mets and knicks... so just kill me now.
um I get what you're trying to do
but did you read what you said and think about it before you posted? Because that’s kind of an extreme logic failure. The fact that it’s a bunch of one on one match ups means it’s entirely possible for a single player to win a championship, where as it wouldn’t be in other sports. Hence why having one or two dominant pitchers usually makes it easy for crap teams to win.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
by Gina on Jul 21, 2010 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
dont be condescending
if it was one 1 on 1 matchup, then yes. one player can win.
But one player really has about 5 of the 35ish 1on1 matchups in a game. So unless that one player has an ungodly series, (one can look at beltrans playoffs when he was on huston as an example) they can possibly string together a bunch of games. But unless you have a full team playing you wont win a series. That is why its a World Series and not a World Championship game.
One only has to look to every player interview that has ever happened in the sport to cite that the people playing feel that they couldnt have done it without their teammates.
I am a fan of both the mets and knicks... so just kill me now.
not being able to do it without
your team mates is irrelevant. Obviously you can’t score without your team mate, but your team mate has nothing to do with whether you got on base in the first place. And whether you got on base has no direct affect on whether the guy behind you will. It’s not like you have to have someone throw you the ball or make a pass to you.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
this isnt a single time thing
its not like… man, i wouldnt have gotten that single on June 24th if you didnt give me a high five before i left the dugout.
Its a snowball kind of effect. If you are motivated, then you play better. If you are with a team that leaves you feeling empty, you wont be able to put forth the same effort.
Baseball players may be some of the most self motivated people on earth. But even they are human. Having people that help you get though a long season around you is only going to help you acheive your goals.
Yes, it can be done without it. And yes, having a player with a solid OPS is more important then having Frenchy. But that should not take away from the positive that is personality.
I am a fan of both the mets and knicks... so just kill me now.
I don't think anyone is saying chemistry has zero effect
just that it’s probably at the bottom of the list
Save Jenrry Mejia!
exactly
plenty of teams have better statistical players but just get shut down by a pitcher a few times in the playoffs, see 2001 yankees in world series (or many of the playoffs to follow).
also, some teams dont have overwhelming stats in most areas but are really good (generally due to insane pitching or an albert pujols-like season from one guy). i mean, show me the team with not great pitching or hitting or bullpen or defense. if some team like that still made the playoffs (the padres that won 83 games comes to mind) i would imagine them making it had more to do with the other teams competing for the division than their chemistry propelling them
I like Ike, I hate Jerry
"Leaders are good players, or formerly good players. Not overpaid replacement level scrubs."
You’ve clearly never worked for the government…
2009 Did Not Happen
Leaders are people who can motivate followers
They have charisma. You hope they have talent. If they don’t, but their followers do, it really doesn’t matter.
do you know that?
honestly, do you?
I know the progressive “saber” line is that you can’t know about team chemistry or player psychology, so it’s not really worth talking about. We’d rather focus on tangible facts, which is what actually happens on the field.
But then, so many saber people go and actually say things like what you said, which is just as nonsensical and uninformed as a Metsblogger saying that Frenchy and Cora provide leadership. You have no idea. I have no idea. But to say “team chemistry isn’t important” or “crappy players can’t be leaders” is just as bad as saying “team chemistry is really important” or “Alex Cora is the most important guy in the Mets clubhouse.”
2009 Did Not Happen
There is no better leader than one who performs and can be used as an example
I’m thinking of Brian Leetch as the ‘perfect’ example. He always led by his production, not his mouth.
My issue with this is that the whole ‘joking and laughing in the clubhouse’ situation is completely irrelevant.
And I say...
Michael Strahan. Not only did he perform, but he spoke out too. I think that is the best type of leader. Peyton Manning, same way. Sorry for the football references, first names to pop in my head.
But a guy like Leetch was well known as being a light-hearted guy off the ice
Never getting into guys faces and just going out and doing his job.
So their obviously isn’t a correct answer to this.
Peyton...
never gets into guys faces in an aggressive manner. He is a very vocal leader and light hearted off the field.
Captain Jonathan Toews
…he’s better than your captain.
It's a game of redeeming features. ~ Bob Murphy
but he definitely gets in guys faces
which is the point
by Mike Clemente on Jul 21, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Peyton Manning
and Michael Strahan are very different leaders IMO. I’m a huge football guy so your comment stuck out to be but the way they go about their business is very different.
"Don't let yourself get attached to anything you are not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds flat if you feel the heat around the corner."
this goes back to what gina was saying above
baseball is different than other sports because its about what each player does in their turn and a manager being smart enough to put the best players on the field most of the time
I like Ike, I hate Jerry
I agree
and Gretzky would be another example, or even Crosby.
They’re not loud and overflowing with testosterone. They went/go about their business the right way and made/make everyone feel “included”.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
there are many different ways to skin a cat.
I am a fan of both the mets and knicks... so just kill me now.
Most definitely
We’re also talking about a completely different animal in “contact” sports.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
"leaders are good players"
this is one type of leader…a leader by example…but not the only kind of leader
by Mike Clemente on Jul 21, 2010 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
The only type of leader I want on this team is
Henry Blanco shanking people with seeming randomness. Never underestimate the motivational power of an uncontrolled knife-wielding maniac.
"It’s like being in love with an alcoholic. It’s like, you constantly defend her, and people are like, ‘Dude, your alcoholic friend is a mess,’ and you’re like, ‘Nah, you don’t know her like I do."- Jim Breuer
by spaceboy761 on Jul 21, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm envisioning something like this
Pelfrey: So then the pet store owner says, “Guinea pig?! Then where did you put my wife!!!”
Crowd of reporters: AHAHAHAHAHA
Cora: [stands there with pissy look on face]
Blanco: MUERE!!!! [stabs Raul Valdes with switchblade, clubhouse falls into dead silence, Mets win nine straight]
Jerry: GANGSTA!
"It’s like being in love with an alcoholic. It’s like, you constantly defend her, and people are like, ‘Dude, your alcoholic friend is a mess,’ and you’re like, ‘Nah, you don’t know her like I do."- Jim Breuer
by spaceboy761 on Jul 21, 2010 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
cant he stab cora or jeff?
I like Ike, I hate Jerry
well who would yell gangsta?
I like Ike, I hate Jerry
That is so much funnier!
"It’s like being in love with an alcoholic. It’s like, you constantly defend her, and people are like, ‘Dude, your alcoholic friend is a mess,’ and you’re like, ‘Nah, you don’t know her like I do."- Jim Breuer
by spaceboy761 on Jul 22, 2010 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions
It's tough to be positive after this stretch of games,
but even one Mets win and one Braves loss – as unlikely as those two events may be – would make things feel a whole lot better around here.
my god i miss june
remember june guys? it was fun! trade for arm or bat now..fire jerry.
I hate Philadelphia so much.
In defense of Omar (yikes!)
1) All of us are ready to toss the Gatorade cooler and a bunch of bats onto the field in a fit of frustration-driven yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh. But only one Met is at that point, and it’s Alex Cora, who is getting paid (too much regardless) for providing specifically that value. This obviously doesn’t mean giving Cora 2+2 is a good idea, but if it were a $650k one year deal, he may have just earned it.
2) Chad Cordero is exactly the kind of signing we need. Low risk, decent enough reward.
3) He didn’t send down Thole, despite many assumptions he would.
Don’t get me wrong. I just listed a mitigating circumstance which makes a “horrific beyond words” contract merely “terrible beyond words;” a small move at best; and a non-brainer only half executed (should have DFAd Barajas and/or Ollie). So this isn’t much of a defense — but we should chill a bit.
by Dan Lewis on Jul 21, 2010 10:10 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
LOL that Cora throwing a hissy fit in the locker room means he's earned his money
Give me a break.
by James Kannengieser on Jul 21, 2010 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
And speak for yourself, not all of us want to throw a Gatorade cooler
I’d rather players handle their struggles maturely, rather than like AJ Burnett throwing shit around in the locker room and cutting himself up. Or Ryan Madson kicking a wall and breaking his foot. There are more examples.
by James Kannengieser on Jul 21, 2010 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Is that RA dickey with a beard?
If there's ever a riot at Citi Field and Oliver Perez was the starter, I started the riot.
I was at this game...sigh
On July 24, Zachry was the starting pitcher against the Cincinnati Reds at Shea Stadium as Pete Rose entered the game with a 36 game hitting streak. Rose was 0-3 until a seventh inning single gave him a 37 game hitting streak to tie the NL record set by Tommy Holmes. Four batters later, Zachry was pulled in favor of Kevin Kobel. Frustrated, Zachry went to kick a batting helmet sitting on the dugout steps, missed the helmet and kicked the step— fracturing his left foot, and ending his season.
It's a game of redeeming features. ~ Bob Murphy
Remember it well Jay
Zachry was All Star that year and he was doing well enough not to be just a token Met.
From Fred to Jeff
and O to Jerr
Funny things
Are everywhere
- Dr. Seuss (if he were a Mets fan)
I still maintain that Omar and Jerry want to send Thole down
but are being shamed into keeping him up and playing him everyonce in awhile because he’s hitting 500.
I don't see how you can defend Omar
most people who are mad at Cora is in essence mad because his production doesn’t justify his contract, but none of us in our right mind would see him as more than a mediocre backup. It’s not Cora’s fault that Omar gave him that much money instead of giving it to an Orlando Hudson (because Omar already threw a ton of money at Castillo), and it’s not his fault that our starting 2nd baseman sucks and gets hurt thus making Cora play everyday.
It’s Omar’s fault that he decided that Franceour is a major league RF, which is further exacerbated by Jerry playing him (GMJ) instead of getting someone else in the offseason.
And if you want to go further, I’m not sure who exactly is responsible for the Beltran debacle last season and the offseason, but Omar has to assume some responsibility for how they handled his injury.
by secret defense on Jul 21, 2010 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions
You're right, it's not Frenchy's or Cora's fault they were offered those contract
but it is their fault for talking to the media like they expect to get playing time despite their suckitude.
And it is their fault that they act like they actually contribute positively to a winning ball club.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
SELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!
Darrelle Revis once won a game of Connect Four in three moves.
NO ONE TO SELL
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
barajas?
ahh right that was a month ago
by Mike Clemente on Jul 21, 2010 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
He's referencing
some dumb-ass Bleacher Report article that said the Mets were the “frontrunners of the NL East.” Whatever, I guess.
"I want to win now, not 3 years from now. That's my stance." - Kevin Burkhardt
wasnt the nice run of wins we had
right after Straw came in and tore the players a new one?
I am a fan of both the mets and knicks... so just kill me now.
Cora
Agree that Cora shouldn’t be throwing a hissy fit in front of reporters, or possibly at all. Leadership has to come from Santana, Wright, Beltran, players of that caliber. However, I can’t think of a situation where a public display of derision by any player would be a positive.
by ColoradoMetsFan on Jul 21, 2010 2:18 PM EDT reply actions
I don't think it makes any sense to expect leadership to come from them
some people just don’t have that personality. Regardless of if Cora sucks, if the players will listen to him and respect him why shouldn’t he throw hissy fits? IMO You’re a leader if people are willing to follow your direction (and you’re willing to lead), if superior players are willing to defer to Cora and he’s willing to take on the job, then wtf are we whining about? It’s none of our business.
I mean Manuel is worse at his job than Cora is at his but if he yelled at players it would be a non issue. which of course begs the question, why can’t we just make cora manager and be rid of jerry?
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
by Gina on Jul 21, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
2 birds, one stone
Fire Jerry, cut Cora and hire him as a manager. He’ll give us that Wally Backman rah rah shit that most fans like.
ah you gotta cut cora...
except why would he take a job with a team that just cut him…ah we can dare to dream
by Mike Clemente on Jul 21, 2010 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions
wouldnt cora just plug himself into 2nd?
by Mike Clemente on Jul 21, 2010 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
This is OT,
but Carl Crawford had a rough day yesterday.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100720&content_id=12434782&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb
"I want to win now, not 3 years from now. That's my stance." - Kevin Burkhardt
That reminds me of this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pZoYw3kcKo
It's a game of redeeming features. ~ Bob Murphy
OWWWWWWW
Hockey players definitely always wear cups, but a slap shot can break one of those things easy.
Salo had a ruptured testicle
and played the next game. Hockey players FTW.
It's a game of redeeming features. ~ Bob Murphy
why would the Stros want Werth
he is a FA after the season isn’t he. I think they want younger guys who can be in the lineup next season, more than a guy to help them get to 65 wins this year
Awkward wording I think
The theoretical plan is to trade Werth to a contender for prospects than flip the prospects for Oswalt.
draft picks?
flip him to a contender?
they’re the astros and they’re stupid?
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
It's a 3 way deal, reportedly
So Phillthy would trade Werth to pick up some prospects (maybe from Tampa for a Wade Davis/Jeremy Hellickson+?) and use those prospect (and Dominic Brown?) to get Oswalt.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
Amaro isn't dumb enough to trade Brown for Oswalt.
But I wouldn’t put it past the guy who gave Ryan Howard that absurd contract.
Yeah, I just don't see him getting a good enough package for Werth
to turn around and use just those guys to get Oswalt. And aside from Brown, I don’t know any other guy they have that’s highly touted around the league.
That and Houston is asking the word for Oswalt.
Save Jenrry Mejia!
If we're going all over the place with this thread
Yunel Escobar is 8-17 with 2 jacks with the Jays, 2 more jacks than 300 ABs with the Braves, hah.
AGon 4-17, 0 jacks.
Small Sample Size, but I think the general trend will continue for the next 3 or years.
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