Brooms Applesauce - Mets swept out of desert, Francoeur trade possible, Perez is back
by Joe Budd on Jul 22, 2010 9:57 AM EDT
in Applesauce
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Meet the Mets
I feel like this is all deja vu. The Mets get swept by a terrible team. Jerry Manuel is on the hot seat again. And Oliver Perez is helping the Mets show that they just don't care anymore.
Someone is interested in Jeff Francoeur. I'll believe it when I see it, but maybe they can be convinced to take a $12 million left handed specialist.
Since Manuel's job is in jeopardy, might as well look at how the manager in waiting is doing.
Well, in good news, at least Carlos Beltran says he's not rusty.
The Mets will keep their AAA team in Buffalo for at least another two years.
New York is also taking a serious look at Octavio Dotel and Scott Downs.
Will Davidian goes all Jose Valentin on Alex Cora.
More Hardball heaps praise on Josh Thole.
Around MLB
I'm not even sure it's relevant anymore, but Billy Wagner blew a save and the Braves fell to the Padres in 12.
Are we seeing a Hall of Fame catcher in Brian McCann?
All of a sudden Lastings Milledge has learned how to be a consistent hitter.
Dodger hitting coach and de facto Torre replacement Don Mattingly is still learning the ropes, but so are the umpires, apparently.
Fresh off Tommy John surger, Jordan Zimmermann is taking names.
Carl Crawford + testicular contusion = day to day.
Pedro is officially out for 2010, but may be back in 2011.
Bob Uecker is back tomorrow in the Brewer broadcasting booth.
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This teams Killer Close Games
Thanks Jerry, Last 3 seasons in 1 run games 46-63
I love how the story about Crawford calls it a "groin injury"
Because we can’t handle the truth of bruised testicles.
by HotChipWillBreakYourLegs on Jul 22, 2010 10:17 AM EDT reply actions
This Cora story has to die
As Gary pointed out last night, he was yelling at the media, not at his teammates in front of the media.
De ja vu
On this day last year, I wrote to my future self in my Outlook, “Football starting soon, so forget about the Mets”. Hmmm, should I take that advice from past me? How did I know?
So Perez is back as what?
a $12M Loogy? good job Omar !!….. why does anyone care what ALEX CORA says???
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
As Seinfeld would say
that must be one magic LOOGY.
What's the score, boys?
What did Bugs Bunny do?
What's with the Carrot League baseball today?
by StorkFan on Jul 22, 2010 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
WWWBD
I could get use to that
"we believe in comebacks"
Jerry being Jerry
by Jadden Hopkins on Jul 22, 2010 10:38 AM EDT reply actions
If the Mets fire Jerry
And make Backman manager, I might be done. Thierry Henry joins the Red Bulls tonight, maybe it’s time to follow a different New York team.
by James Kannengieser on Jul 22, 2010 10:39 AM EDT reply actions
This.
I’ve got to start getting ready for fantasy football anyway.
"He's definitely mixing it into his repertoire. That's French for 'repertoire' " - Keith Hernandez
by Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright on Jul 22, 2010 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions
And he's playing Spurs
I’d go just to see Thierry and yell at Spurs
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Jul 22, 2010 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
You guys are gonna miss Francoeur when he's gone
:(
I know he wasn’t hitting, and it’s probably the right move, but things are just not gonna be the same without Jeff :(…
Yes, I like Jeff Francoeur and listen to WFAN. No, I am not a troll.
This is true, to an extent
I think people will miss the fact that he’s (at least on the surface, since we don’t know him personally) a funny, genuine dude who plays hard and wants to win baseball games. What we won’t miss is his lack of actual baseball talent causing us to lose baseball games.
You're probably right...
He is a charismatic guy. But, I do not think anyone is going to take him….ever. We might be able to wrestle away a bag of oranges in return.
He's the worst regular RFer in the majors.
There only one kind of bag we’ll be getting for him.
I sorely hope you are correct
that things will not be the same without Jeff.
by dontstopbelieving on Jul 22, 2010 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm gonna miss the black hole of offense from RF.
and the 6 pitch four out nights.
i think he's trying to appease bud selig
and the people calling for the length of the games to be shortened
"The one thing you don't want to do is hit a home run. That's a rally-killer." -Jeff Francoeur
by RangersandMets on Jul 22, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I knew you'd be devastated
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Jul 22, 2010 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
wait, you weren't banned?
I don’t intend that to be mean – I just figured that 24 hours without a GeddyLeeIsGod post meant you were gone. I would have missed how often your username started off-topic discussions about music (as people criticize what you say but make sure to distinguish that you have good taste in music and/or bash Rush) that make Eric’s head explode.
2009 Did Not Happen
can't say you're totally wrong
we do love poking fun at the guy.
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Jul 22, 2010 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, that's an overreaction
He hasn’t demanded a trade. A friend of his said he’d be amenable to a trade if the mets don’t have a spot for him any longer. What would you have him say? He could do an Ollie, pout and refuse every suggestion that would help the team.
Well if we're going with GLIG's sources
Francesa and Ed Coleman said earlier Francoeur demanded to be traded after being benched. Just playing by his rules.
because he's been here for so long?
he’s been a met for 1.5 years. At best he’ll be a footnote in the history of the mets.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
He'll always be remembered for being such a good guy,
it’s safe to say he’s one of the best clubhouse guys the Mets have had in their history…
Yes, I like Jeff Francoeur and listen to WFAN. No, I am not a troll.
by GeddyLeeIsGod on Jul 22, 2010 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions
The 1986 Mets disagree
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Jul 24, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Disapprove. It's shit beer.
You guys have Yuengling now in Georgia. Send us a 10 cases of that and you’ll have a deal.
2010: Year of the Grission
In My World, There Is No Such Thing As Off-Topic!
fixed.
I could use a good picnh runer on my softball team. I’ll give you 5 cases of Budweiser Schaefer Light for him.
It's a game of redeeming features. ~ Bob Murphy
I will see your Schaefer Light
And raise you a Pabst Blue Ribbon.
2010: Year of the Grission
In My World, There Is No Such Thing As Off-Topic!
Well, this all fell apart quickly, didn't it?
The good old-fashioned season-killing west coast road trip.
Our bats have been asleep before this season (think: right before we called up Ike), and our pitching just isn’t good enough to push us over the top.
Also, please, I know it’s irrational, but can we just get Castillo off of the team now? Please? He’s a cipher.
Y'all
can just assume that at the end of virtually every post I make, there’s a clause that reads “and also we should get rid of Omar, the bulk of the front office, Jerry, and his coaching staff.”
and the Wilpons
good luck with that though
by secret defense on Jul 22, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
That would be ideal
we’ll add “and Fred should sell.”
I heard MLB have allowed Mark Cuban to bid on the Rangers
why can’t he buy the Mets? Rangers could potentially rival the Yankees as the biggest spenders.
by secret defense on Jul 22, 2010 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Castillo is better than Tejada and Cora...
I know, it seems like all Castillo does is tap out to short, but the guy is a professional hitter…he’s certainly better than our alternatives…
Yes, I like Jeff Francoeur and listen to WFAN. No, I am not a troll.
by GeddyLeeIsGod on Jul 22, 2010 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
dude...come on
professional hitter…it’s like your not even trying with your trolling anymore
by Mike Clemente on Jul 22, 2010 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Would you shut up?
Just because all my opinions don’t follow the norm, doesn’t mean I’m a troll. Automatically writing me off as a troll is much more unproductive my posts are.
Yes, I like Jeff Francoeur and listen to WFAN. No, I am not a troll.
by GeddyLeeIsGod on Jul 22, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
If by "professional hitter"
you mean Castillo gets paid to hit, it’s difficult to argue the point.
if you read this site then you know certain memes are laughable to use in a series manner...
“professional hitter” is one of those
by Mike Clemente on Jul 22, 2010 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
so because of that...and the fact that it seems you read this site...
i have to assume you’re a troll looking to stir shit up
by Mike Clemente on Jul 22, 2010 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm pretty sure he's an AA regular who came up with a troll handle
He’s been using AA meme’s since the beginning.
In defense of Geddy (words I never thought i'd say)
Castillo does have much higher quality ABs than Cora or Tejada. His K rate is down this year and his BB rate is up, albeit in a slightly limited sample size. He doesn’t have any power, and he’s clearly past his prime, but he does know how to put the bat on the ball. His BABIP is .257, which seems fairly low even considering his ridiculous groundball rate (71.3%). Is Castillo good, no, does he take professional ABs and make the most of his limited skillset, yes.
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Jul 22, 2010 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed.
I don’t think it’s ridiculous to say Castillo is better than Cora or Tejada as a hitter. However, it’s more of an indictment of the latter 2 than a compliment to Castillo.
"Seriously, Lana, call Kenny Loggins ‘cause you’re in the danger zone."
He used to be
the quintessential (ahem) “gritty” player — a lightning quick, base-stealing pest. But that was a decade ago. Now he does virtually nothing.
he still walks at a good clip and rarely strikes out
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Jul 22, 2010 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Meh
When he does strike out, you know it’s at a critical juncture.
And really, YES I KNOW, it’s correlation, not causation, but doesn’t it seem like the team takes off when he’s on the DL and tanks whenever he comes back? Trading for him was the death knell.
Plus
He’s not that hot a fielder anymore, either.
Oh, the butcher and the baker and the people on the street: wheredotheygo?!?!?
no argument there, he's not exactly rangey anymore
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Jul 22, 2010 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
This team tanks on such a regular basis, it's hardly fair to correlate it with anything
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Jul 22, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you're being dramatic.
While signing him long term was a terrible decision and bringing him back this year while cheap options floated around in free agency (see John Peterson’s consensus gripes post,) as Keith’s Stache has noted, he still gets on base and according to FanGraphs his WAR is .4, giving $1.60 value. Obviously, this isn’t good, but it’s not exactly Francoeurian.
In the hierarchy of things to bitch about when it comes to this team, I would say that Castillo is below: Francoeur, starting Mejia in the bullpen, Manuel (this is my mea culpa for my devil’s advocate post a few weeks back,) Ollie, Cora’s contract, Maine, etc.
I know Castillo doesn’t have the same range or speed he used to have, but he gets on base, works the count, and he still can turn a mean pivot on a double play. Obviously I would rather have Kelly Johnson playing 2B and hitting 2nd, but calling the Castillo trade the death knell is a bit much.
"Seriously, Lana, call Kenny Loggins ‘cause you’re in the danger zone."
Well, yeah.
I just recall that the team started a slide downward in 2007 about when we acquired him. this is probably a faulty memory, and of course, until September, we had a pretty decent 2008. And I don’t think he was causing injuries last year.
But is he a major cause of the organizational faceplant? Probably not. Is he any damn good at all? Maybe in the right lineup if he could play defense.
The most players are not good/bad enough to have such a dramatic effect on a team.
As was mentioned elsewhere, put Pujols on a crappy team and there are only so many RBIs a dude can get when you’re only hitting solo homers.
Ditto for the crappy guys. You can get away with Castillo on the team (as you noted) but having Francoeur in RF every day compounds the problem because now you have two poor options at their respective positions.
I’m just not a fan of attributing success/failure to any one players because it’s not very fair or accurate.
"Seriously, Lana, call Kenny Loggins ‘cause you’re in the danger zone."
NICE
he’s been worth a dollar and 60 cents!
"The one thing you don't want to do is hit a home run. That's a rally-killer." -Jeff Francoeur
by RangersandMets on Jul 22, 2010 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
WWWBD
Drink and drive, get into a “domestic dispute” and not pay his taxes.
But hey, he was on a team that won a World Series 25 years ago. And he yells at umpires. And he’s won a few meaningless games with a bunch of guys 2-3 years older than everyone else in the league.
Backman for manager! Rafael Santana for bench coach!
Ha, ha, ha, funny guy.
But you won’t be laughing once we bring back Sisk or, say, Randy Niemann to coach/mentor the best bullpen evar.
Wait, what?
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Jul 22, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I already told you
I deal with the goddamn customers so the engineers don’t have to. I have people skills; I am good at dealing with people! Can’t you understand that? What the hell is wrong with you people?
Would backman be worse than Jerry ?
Probably not, it’s a lateral move at best. He would flame out Bowa style early but damn, did you see Jerry last night. I watched last night until I couldn’t take it anymore ( top 14) and Jerry could not look more clueless. Having bbrod warm up every freaking inning? The return of the money pit? The continuing struggles of Canada’s greatest athlete Iron Mike Bay. The debacle in the desert just shows that Jerry is not getting it done.
We are going to LA maybe someone should speak to Bowa while we are in town. I’m going to the game Friday hopefully we will put up an effort.
Jerry and Omar assclowns for life
by Ghost of seven in a row on Jul 22, 2010 12:34 PM EDT reply actions
Good point, he seems bored in LA
Jerry and Omar assclowns for life
by Ghost of seven in a row on Jul 22, 2010 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions
He didn't really have Rodriguez warming up every inning
without actually getting him into the game, did he?
Can we at least consider Oberkfell for the spot?
He’s just as deserving.
2010: Year of the Grission
In My World, There Is No Such Thing As Off-Topic!
Joe Janish
Is he always this stupid?
"Is it a coincidence that the Mets’ overnight change from a fighting, tenacious team to a bunch of sleepwalkers began when Carlos Beltran returned to active duty?"
He hates Beltran -
has said ugly stuff in the past about how he needs to learn proper English if he’s going to work here (as if Carlos is not one of the better second-language speakers I’ve ever heard).
Ugly quote
Nevermind the hideous lead-up to the All Star break without Beltran.
by James Kannengieser on Jul 22, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
To be fair
Beltran’s return was looming right before the break, which could’ve had a negative impact on the team’s carefree/winning psyche…
Yes, I like Jeff Francoeur and listen to WFAN. No, I am not a troll.
by GeddyLeeIsGod on Jul 22, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
To be fair
That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard.
by James Kannengieser on Jul 22, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
Well, Mike Francesa just said that in his opening rant
and I consider him a baseball authority for people with my style of thinking (i.e. not stat-heavy). And don’t tell me he’s a just another WFAN blowhard, because Mike is not exactly Joe Benigno or Steve Somers. He knows his shit…
And no, this isn’t a troll post, and Mike has a large following nationwide. And believe it or not, his millions of fans aren’t idiots just because they don’t subscribe to the type of thinking present in sites like these…
Yes, I like Jeff Francoeur and listen to WFAN. No, I am not a troll.
by GeddyLeeIsGod on Jul 22, 2010 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
A lot of people have large followings and no clue.
I wouldn’t go so far as to say that Francesa fans are all morons, but keep in mind it is possible to be smart, convincing, and still totally wrong.
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Jul 22, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
He's an obvious troll, stop feeding him.
I’m always amazed by good boards with good posters who still let themselves be taken by a carny.
but he said he's not a troll
nobody lies on the internet
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Jul 22, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Can we just ban the guy altogether? Go back to the way things were?
2010: Year of the Grission
In My World, There Is No Such Thing As Off-Topic!
I see yer truuuuue colors...
Oh, the butcher and the baker and the people on the street: wheredotheygo?!?!?
Don't knock Steve Somers
He’s at least funny.
Unless it’s about his love with the Rangers. Then, knock away.
If there's ever a riot at Citi Field and Oliver Perez was the starter, I started the riot.
or the metropolitans
"The one thing you don't want to do is hit a home run. That's a rally-killer." -Jeff Francoeur
by RangersandMets on Jul 22, 2010 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
This
"we believe in comebacks"
Jerry being Jerry
by Jadden Hopkins on Jul 22, 2010 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
+20
You there, me here, schmoozing s-p-o-r-t-s…
Steve Somers has been the best guy on radio since Jean Shepherd died.
Except for his love for the Rags and his taking Stan Fischler in any way seriously.
I miss Jean Shepherd
What's the score, boys?
What did Bugs Bunny do?
What's with the Carrot League baseball today?
You're right
there are typically many other reasons that those people are idiots.
Francesa back when I listened to him in the 90's
all he talked about was what he did instead of watching the Ball games, his fame was picking the NCAA backetball tourney not as a baseball guy
Mike Francessa is not a baseball authority.
He is a sad excuse for a character actor who’s job description is to rile up the listeners to get calls and ratings. You have to take anything anyone on the radio says with a mountain of salt because their entire purpose is to get ratings to drive ad sales.
Anyone who would not welcome Carlos Beltran back to the team with open arms doesn’t know what they are talking about. IMO, there is no other impact bat out on the market that can have more of an impact to a contending team than Beltran.
All of this nonsense about team chemistry is worthless in baseball. It isn’t a team sport. In pretty much every situation you’re on an island and what your teammates do around you has very little influence on your performance. Just go up and hit the damn ball. This isn’t basketball or football where a lack of chemistry can manifest itself on the field in blown plays or what have you.
"Seriously, Lana, call Kenny Loggins ‘cause you’re in the danger zone."
by keithprime on Jul 22, 2010 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
Agreed up to the chemistry part
Then disagree. Baseball is not unique among human endeavors — psychology and motivation matter, and that’s where the “chemistry” comes in. it’s a very indirect effect, but someone like Pat Gillick understood the importance of character, “intangibles,” etc. That’s because there are a lot of “talented” baseball players. On the margins it is the mental makeup that allows players to succeed over an extremely grueling season.
If your winning
You’ll have good chemistry. Unless these guys really hate each other on a personal level, they’ll be fine. Sure, if two players are equal and one is a good guy and the other is an asshole, sure, go with the good guy. But if that asshole plays baseball well, and that good guy is Jeff Francoeur, only an idiot wouldn’t take the asshole over Francoeur.
Chemistry versus character
You hear this a lot — oh, chemistry is just a post hoc explanation. But I think the emphasis on players’ relationships with each other kind of misses the boat. A guy like Gillick tries to build a team of “character” players. Obviously, he doesn’t, say, kick Miguel Cabrera off of the team to make room for Darrin Erstad. But on the margins, you find “character” players who “play the game the right way,” etc. That group probably wins AND develops chemistry. On a team without chemistry/ character players, you can get a lot of underachieving players (and then their poor performances are the proximate cause of the losing.) It’s alchemy, sure, but Gillick certainly built quite a track record with it.
All I know is
The 77 Yankees had their star player and manager loathe each other and won. Talent needs to supersede everything else.
77 Yankees,
72-74 A’s, Bonds & Kent on the Giants, shall I go on? When you win, sportswriters “discover” chemistry. When you lose, the y say you lack chemistry.
What's the score, boys?
What did Bugs Bunny do?
What's with the Carrot League baseball today?
Here's the thing...
You don’t have to subscribe to the “thinking” of AA to realize Beltran is an elite player.
I don’t mean to be rude, but anyone who would say “Hey Carlos, we’re good up here… Francoeur is making sure everyone shaves and does a great job of keeping our karmic balance in the locker room with his knowledge of feng shui. We really don’t want you messing with our carefree and winning psyche” is a moron. Plain and simple.
Even if I came out of Plato’ cave and had no knowledge of what baseball or sabermetrics, after watching a week’s worth of games I would come to the conclusion that this Beltran is better than the one they call Francoeur at whatever it is that I am watching.
"Seriously, Lana, call Kenny Loggins ‘cause you’re in the danger zone."
by keithprime on Jul 22, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
One troll, one message board, and one vision.
He is: GeddyLeeisGod.
by JohnPeterson on Jul 22, 2010 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Guys w 3/4 of a HOF career
just suck the life out of a team. Ya know?
Wally Backman seems to be very smallball. He’s all about bunting, moving runners over, and all of that garbage. However, maybe he’ll be able to handle a bullpen and not make mind boggling decisions. I can tolerate smallball strategy if bullpen management and lineup construction is solid.
i doubt it
"The one thing you don't want to do is hit a home run. That's a rally-killer." -Jeff Francoeur
by RangersandMets on Jul 22, 2010 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
The problem with that is
if Wally’s not smart enough to have figured out that small ball isn’t really what wins games, is fifty years old, and has been in the game for over thirty years, what are the chances that he’ll have figured out optimal bullpen construction or the best way of running a roster?
It seems far more likely, based on the assertions in this thread, that Backman is an inferior baseball mind.
Does anyone remember this?
It never really gained traction, but I can’t help but think the existence of Francoeur might have been a reason.
"Seriously, Lana, call Kenny Loggins ‘cause you’re in the danger zone."
Is anyone else slightly terrified of the Nationals?
Strasburg and Zimmerman should be fronting their rotation and if Wang and Olsen could ever get/stay healthy they could really have a solid rotation. They’re already a pretty solid hitting team. They’ve also shown an ability/desire to spend and play in a good market. The Nats could be contenders pretty soon.
"Seriously, Lana, call Kenny Loggins ‘cause you’re in the danger zone."
yeah but in that same sense we could be serious contenders
as soon as we stopped sabotaging ourselves.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
Did my post imply we wouldn't/shouldn't be serious contenders?
I was mostly remarking about how nasty a Strasburg/Zimmerman combo would be at the top of a rotation.
"Seriously, Lana, call Kenny Loggins ‘cause you’re in the danger zone."
Ah, yes.
Had Zimmermann on my fantasy team last season but since he has been out so long I forgot about the extra “N.”
"Seriously, Lana, call Kenny Loggins ‘cause you’re in the danger zone."
Not really, i'm more afraid of the Braves going forward
The Bravos keep churning out good young players. The Nats will keep trying to fill holes with FA on top of a few great players.
they keep churning them out
and randomly shipping half of them off for no apparent reason.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
Yeah, like when they traded Frenchy for Church
Wokka, wokka!
Less afraid of the Braves
Schuelerholz isn’t the GM anymore and Cox is hanging ‘em up. Other than Heyward and McCann, what hitters scare you? Prado is certainly a good ballplayer, but I’m not losing any sleep over him. I’m not sure why you don’t see the fact that the Nats will spend as a positive. The Braves don’t seem willing to spend all that much, aside from throwing out big money for an established closer (but at the cost of Vazquez.)
"Seriously, Lana, call Kenny Loggins ‘cause you’re in the danger zone."
5 Quality starters for here into eternity is what scares me
even if they fill out their roster with guys like Glaus, Hinske, etc every year.
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