Unless the Mets have a lead in extra innings on the road, Francisco Rodriguez likely will remain unused.
"Pretty hard and fast," pitching coach Dan Warthen said about the Mets’ adherence to the philosophy. "There’s minute exceptions. I think it’s standard across baseball."
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I just want to say
Heaven Hell Purgatory help us all!
2010: Year of the Grission
In My World, There Is No Such Thing As Off-Topic!
Well, if it's standard across baseball.....
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but Jerry abuses the privilege.
eh
i think even most conventional managers have started to move away from this, they definitely don’t do it to the lolextent the mets do.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
If we had any other manager
They’d use Frankie after burning through Pedro, Parnell, Valdez and maybe Acosta already. Nobody else would even consider using Ollie when K-Rod is still available.
WISH DEATH UPON QUOTED SPEAKER.
That is all. Hope everyone’s having a nice evening.
hey that makes perfect sense
also why not keep friggin david wright on the bench until there’s a chance for a walk off homer.
i think alan shemper said it best: “i’m sick of you freaks.”
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.
Being standard doesn't make it any less stupid
There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ
The 2010 Mets- Hey, we may suck, but what did you expect?
I think this might be a brilliant quote...But I need more information.
Please explain. Thanks—late. Brain hurts.
by MookieTheCat on Jul 25, 2010 3:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Also...
being standard makes you a middle of the pack team. you need to be above standard to go all the way. they are a bunch of assholes.
One day, this team is going to kill me.
Just because you have always done it that way
Does not mean that its not incredibly stupid.
Incredible
They’d let their season slip away in the hands of Oliver Perez & Fernando Nieve before they’d bring K-Rod into a tied extra inning game on the road.
"I want to win now, not 3 years from now. That's my stance." - Kevin Burkhardt
Ummmm yes.
You are exactly right. It hurts me too. I do not get it. Why could I not have been born a Yankees fan? It’s a much simpler existence.
by MookieTheCat on Jul 25, 2010 3:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes Lebron, it would be simpler.
But it would be weird having a mustache and beer belly all the time, no?
I don't want to be a part of any team
whose fans don’t have beer bellies and mustaches.
by Pack Bringley on Jul 25, 2010 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Just because everyone does it doesn't make it not stupid
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
True
Still, name me your favorite manager and he would have done the same. When I’m targeting Jerry/Omar in particular, this is the least of the things I’m upset about.
by Pack Bringley on Jul 25, 2010 7:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Manny Acta?
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Jul 25, 2010 8:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Does he not abide by the closer thing?
I dunno one way or the other.
by Pack Bringley on Jul 25, 2010 8:34 AM EDT up reply actions
I was curious about this.
So I checked this year’s game logs for Chris Perez and Kerry Wood, the Indians’ two closers this year, to see how many times they were brought into a tie game on the road in the 9th inning or later (in the closer role; Perez was a setup guy when Wood was closing).
Wood did it twice — once, pitching a scoreless tenth inning and not factoring into the decision (the Indians would lose in the 11th), and once coming in in the tenth and losing.
Perez did it once, and he got a no-decision, but he did give up the game-winning hit.
So there’s your answer. Manny Acta has done it three times this year, and the Indians lost all three times.
It's a little like
if you’re a vegetarian who believes all meat-eating is barbaric, and you assail a prominent politician for eating meat. Is he wrong and murderous in your view? Yep. Do you have a right to your indignation? Of course. It’s not the best evidence, though, for this particular politician’s villainy.
by Pack Bringley on Jul 25, 2010 8:32 AM EDT up reply actions
For the most part, you're right
But they mentioned a stat the other night, that since Frankie got here, he has never pitched in a tie game in extra innings on the road. In that same time period, Papelbon has done it 6 times. Brian Wilson has done it 5 times.
Now, those are only two guys, but it’s not like this is never done.
by Bieser's Balk on Jul 25, 2010 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions
What's funny
is the Yankees have made a habit over the years of pitching Rivera on the road, usually for two innings. I always thought it seemed to stress the other team out because they knew they had little chance to score when he was out there and it meant trying to hold off the yanks offense, which unlike some other team that I know makes life very difficult for average to below average bullpens. The reason I said it was funny is they have probably been the most successful team [top couple at least] for the last 15 years or so and they employ that strategy right in the same town and the Mets act like they are being asked to turn lead into gold. Now granted, as we have painfully learned, no one is Rivera [I’m convinced he is a witch].
by Bruce Wayne on Jul 25, 2010 7:25 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
We'd better throw him in a lake.
You know, just to be safe. If he drowns, we can exonerate him posthumously.
There are ways of telling whether he is a witch.
I fed a fish to a pelican and Frisco bay and he tried to eat my cell phone he ran away
by TradeAndruw on Jul 25, 2010 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
So, if he weighs the same as a duck, then he's made of wood?
“And therefore?”
“A witch!!!”
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage
by blueandorange4life on Jul 25, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
and that's why pitchers never get the best wood
by enigma2029 on Jul 25, 2010 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Dickey does.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jul 25, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Build a bridge out of her.
I fed a fish to a pelican and Frisco bay and he tried to eat my cell phone he ran away
to be really safe though
we can strap jorge posada to his leg to make sure we can tell
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Jul 25, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
It would be interesting to know
if, in extra inning games, home teams who fall behind tend to generate more offense in this do-or-die inning than they did in the 9th and the innings that followed. My gut says no, b/c they’re usually then facing a tougher reliever, but is there some “rally effect” that cuts against this, and would perform better against league average pitching?
I think we’re right that it’s smart for the away team to pitch their closer in the ninth or against the strong part of the order if it comes up in the next couple innings. But is there some good analysis out there to confirm this? It’s something that feels intuitively right to me, but the opposite feels intuitively right to all organized baseball.
You want to bring your closer in the highest leverage situations
Tie games in extra innings are pretty high leverage
In defense of Warthen -- this one is on Omar.
It’s a dumb quote, but last night wasn’t his or Maneul’s fault. Yes, they should have gone to K-Rod before Ollie (for the second time this week), but I doubt it’d have mattered much — maybe .2 or so wins. Yes, the problem is emblematic of Jerry’s generally poor managerial style/strategy/tactics. But is that what we’re really griping about here? I don’t think so.
This is Omar’s loss, plain and simple. He’s given Jerry a bullpen which effectively is one man short by including Perez in it, and to boot, has no one who can really go 3+ IP. He also gave Jerry a catcher with a sub-.300 OBP, which results in bases-loaded, one out srikeouts with the pitcher up - which itself means it makes “sense” to pull Pelfrey (5 IP, 2 R, under 90 pitches) for an early-game RBI opportunity. Oh, and he was pulled for a bench of Josh Thole, Henry Blanco (.330 OBP) and *three guys* with sub.300 OBP. THREE.
This one’s on Omar.
anonymous did it
"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"
by firejerrynow on Jul 25, 2010 8:22 AM EDT up reply actions
are you sure it's on Omar?
it sounds like Jerry is the one demanding we keep 3 catchers up, which is playing a major part in being 1-2 men short.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
I don't know
I always thought Jerry was ok with Blanco and Thole but Omar insists on keeping Barajs on the team because he loves to pick up guys off the scrap heap and can’t bear it when they prove to be useless. And he was good in april or something.
if that was the case wouldn't Jerry be playing the other two?
even before Thole Jerry never brought in Blanco. And I remember Jerry and Warthen being the one praising Barajas for his game management and throwing Santos under the bus saying he was the reason for the pitcher suckiness and they needed a veteran game caller.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
The shitty bullpen is on Omar
The decision to pitch 6/7 of the bullpen while leaving his best reliever on the pine is on Jerry (and maybe Warthen, I guess). He made a mistake. We’re pointing it out. I don’t get the “in defense of” stuff. Both Omar and Jerry are culpable for this team’s problems, one moreso than the other, but that doesn’t mean we can’t point out dumb things the lesser of the two evils does.
by James Kannengieser on Jul 25, 2010 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
In defense of DanDotLewis
He didn’t try to stop anyone from pointing out anything.
by Pack Bringley on Jul 25, 2010 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Fair enough, maybe "point out" was the wrong choice of words
Perhaps “complain about” is more appropriate. I was mainly addressing DanDotLewis’s line “last night wasn’t his [Warthen] or Maneul’s fault”. I fail to see how Jerry not bringing in his best closer is on Omar. It seems like we’re discussing different things — I’m bringing up Jerry’s bullpen use, Dan is talking about Omar’s roster construction.
by James Kannengieser on Jul 25, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Both are real problems.
It’s the Mets. Surely there’s plenty of blame to go around.
i agree with everyone...
but when do you bring him in? the 9th?
There were multiple appropriate times
When you’re on the road, extra innings starts in the bottom of the 9th, basically. I think there are two strategies that make some sense:
1. Use your bullpen in the order of quality.
2. Use your closer when the tough part of the opponents’ order is coming up (particularly if the handedness matches up well).
I tend to support #2 there, but the overall logic of being on the road in an extra inning game is pretty straightforward, to me: extend the game. That’s all that matters. You’ll figure out who can close the game when you actually get a save situation.
I think of it this way
When the away team has a lead going into the bottom half on an extra inning, it’s a do or die situation! But if the away team doesn’t score any runs and take the lead, it’s a… do or die situation!
by Pack Bringley on Jul 25, 2010 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions
not if the road team scores 5 runs in their half of the inning
Another reason not to save your closer for the save situation that may or may not materialize from inning 9+.
you bring him in SOMETIME IN THE GAME, DAMMIT!
Since you don’t know how many extra innings there will be, that means early to me (9th or 10th). An even simpler rule: whenever you were thinking about putting Ollie in an important game, don’t!
by enigma2029 on Jul 25, 2010 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Importance of innings actually being played, right now > Importance of theoretical innings
by LeiterMilnerFasterStronger on Jul 25, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
WE MUST SAVE MIKE PELFREY FOR THE 19TH
Fixed that for you.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jul 25, 2010 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Mike Pelfrey is the 20th
Come on, keep up with your 18th inning and later pitchers.
http://www.doublebobbyjones.com/ -Double Bobby Jones: a Mets blog
rec'd for simplicity
You’d think that even Jerry could understand when it’s stated this succinctly.
Also it's hilarious that this team is so stupid
they’ll pay a man 13 million dollars to not get used in critical times.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
And if it were standard across baseball
for managers to throw themselves off a bridge, would Jerry do it then?
May you be locked in a battle of wits against Jerry Manuel.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jul 25, 2010 10:53 AM EDT reply actions
BTW, time to come up from the basement for dinner.
May you be locked in a battle of wits against Jerry Manuel.
by BobbyV_Incognito on Jul 25, 2010 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Jerry says
well am I gonna get that 99.999999999% where we all die or that .0000000001% time where I learn how to fly.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
by Gina on Jul 25, 2010 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
According to Jerry's previous statements, since it will either happen or it won't,
that makes it a 50-50 proposition.
if this west coast trip doesnt fire jerry
nothing will.
i feel defeated.
I hate Philadelphia so much.
Managerial Change
Based on recent performance one might surmise that the team has quit on Jerry. I don’t know this for a fact, but the lack of run production is alarming, and is at the very least, a sign that something is very wrong. At this point, a reasonable course of action would be to make a managerial change. However,unless you’re willing to take a chance on someone like Tim Teufel or Ken Oberkfell, or bring back Bobby Valentine, your choices are limited. The fact is, the good managers are already working, along with some not-so-good managers. There’s a good chance that any change is a band-aid, but if the past 25 games are any indication, change for the sake of change may be warranted.
by ColoradoMetsFan on Jul 25, 2010 12:04 PM EDT reply actions
Based on a lot of what we've seen
some of the, ahem, “lower-tier managers”, like Bob Melvin, would still be an upgrade from Jerry. The guy seriously has few redeeming qualities, both as a manager and as a person.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jul 25, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
This is the perfect time to take a flyer.
Try Teufel. If he doesn’t work out you cross him off the list of candidates to interview during the offseason.
You’d think the Wilpons would have some basic competency test that candidates have to pass. Like finishing third or better in a Strat-O-Matic league.
I wish someone would ask Warthen or Jerry what the rationalization for this is
Possible explanations:
1. Because they want to get their closer a Save. Obviously idiotic and they would sound stupid for even saying that.
2. Because only the Closer is used to the pressure packed Save situation. But isn’t being in a tie game where one run means a walk-off loss more pressure packed than having a cushion to work with? And wouldn’t you want your lesser relievers to have a cushion as opposed to none?
3. Because they don’t want to use their Closer in a game they might not win. But by having him warm up multiple times it’s as good as an appearance anyway.
4. The most likely reason they have: Uhhhh . . . everyone does it . . . heh heh.
I guess the thing is, which situation do you put him in for? Assuming the innings are going pretty lightly, with not a lot of
high leverage situations, do you put him in the 15th when it’s possible you’ll need him to protect a lead in the 18th?
I’m not saying I agree I’m just trying to make sense of it.
According to this article
49% of extra-inning games end in the 10th, and 85% end by the 12th. Saving your closer is dumb.. You play to win the game, and 85% of the time, the game is won in the first 3 extra innings. Each inning, you’re in a similar situation of roughly half a chance of making it through to the next inning. Use your closer if he is better than your other pitchers, because the only situation where it makes a difference is the one where you lose right now.
It is easier for a worse pitcher to defend a one-run lead later than for your closer to somehow win you a game you have already lost because the lesser pitcher gave up a run!
by enigma2029 on Jul 25, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Here's my rule of thumb:
If your options are best reliever, a guy you’re going to DFA after the game and a guy you literally can’t give away, it might be time to go to the best reliever.
I can understand saving him for an inning or two if you have other solid options and/or it’s the bottom part of the order.
But when you’re down to two guys who shouldn’t be in the majors and your 13-million-dollar man, might be time to pull the trigger.
by Bieser's Balk on Jul 25, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Although I agree, orthodoxies don't change just because they have a logical flaw
Saving the closer is only dumb if you make no a priori assumptions about what situations are the highest leverage, and therefore call for your best reliever. The orthodoxy among managers is to assume that the last three outs preceding a win are, by definition, the highest leverage—the hardest to get. Based on that assumption, if we’re just talking who starts an inning (regardless of matchups, etc.) it makes perfect sense to withhold the closer for the highest leverage outs.
The save stat merely institutionalized what had been pretty common practice in using closers. That’s really the thinking that has to change.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
i like this
it’s a baseball culture thing, not merely jerry and warthen. The Closer’s morale and earnings potential have been allowed to rule the day, combining with common practice among managers to form an unstoppable set of assumptions about “roles” and when to use Closers. My solution is to trick star Closer by telling him he needs to “get some work in” (they don’t mind that) in what just happens to be a high leverage situation. Problem solved!
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Jul 25, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
but like someone said above
most other managers have gone against them. Even Bruce “I’ll be damned if I outmanage Jerry Manuel” Bochy’s done it six times.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
them being the ingrained rules as far as using your closer in ties games
on the road.
I just feel like you’d be hard pressed to find a manager who would go to Ollie before K-rod.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
going to ollie at all is the problem to me
I.M. Forme
"When you get yourself into trouble is when you feel you have to do something, and then you get yourself in trouble." --Omar Minaya
by itsmetsforme on Jul 25, 2010 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
That's the thing, isn't it?
Ollie before your best reliever?
I think it was twice within four days that Manuel brought in EVERY other reliever he had in extra inning games and lost those games without Rodriguez.
It’s one thing to argue that you avoid bringing your closer into a tie game on the road, it’s another thing entirely to avoid bringing him in while bringing in the 10th, 11th, and 12th men on your pitching staff.
You're right, the thinking does have to change on leverage.
But it is flawed anyway. Regardless of leverage, your closer will only get to close if you score before the other team. Putting terrible relievers in instead of your best one is the best way to make sure that no one will get to close.
That's all well and good, and it's also inexcusable.
If you owned U-Haul, and one of your franchise managers kept losing money every quarter by following the same business practices every other unthinking manager of every other rental franchise followed, you’d fire him and hire someone who would institute practices that stopped losing you money. You wouldn’t think about it much, except wrt whom you’d hire to replace the guy you were certainly going to fire.
hell we can give you a chance too
can’t be worse than Jerry.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
What are you going to do
with a manger? I will take a manager change tho…
That is freakin ridiculous
That is literally giving up the game. Words cannot express such idiocy. Sigh.
Consequences will never be the same.
I blame Jeff Wilpon
Until he fires Omar, we are not getting rid of Jerry.
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but Jerry abuses the privilege.
we need total overhall of the front office and coaching staff
Ineptitude is all over the place. Stubborness is rampant. Its amounting to a whole lot of fail. i feel like its 1991-1996 again. Oh….2001-5, and the end of 2007-present ALL OVER AGAIN!!!!!!!
Christ almighty this team is forcing me to drink and leading me to an early grave!
I hate Philadelphia so much.
Could we even get a good GM or manager at this point?
Between the stress and the apparently meddling of the Wilpons, who would want the gig?
Omar & Jerry
In a previous thread, it was opined that Omar would not initiate another mid-season firing. The thing is Omar has the contract while Jerry does not. Still I would think Omar would change managers as a way to deflect attention from his own shortcomings. On the other hand he can just hang Jerry out to dry and start fresh in 2011.
by ColoradoMetsFan on Jul 25, 2010 3:20 PM EDT reply actions
I think
this is standard across baseball.
by JohnPeterson on Jul 25, 2010 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
eh based on the handling of Meija
im not even sure what kind of authority Omar has over Jerry
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
Line of Authority
Exactly. There are so many moving parts to the Mets disorganization, deciphering the lines of authority is nearly impossible.
by ColoradoMetsFan on Jul 25, 2010 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
They either don't communicate or Jerry actually bosses him around a bit
I just don’t see how Omar could be making some roster decisions and agreeing with Jerry’s usage. The 3 Catcher situation has to be some differing of opinions. The Mejia thing too.
Good point, that.
Minaya simply doesn’t exercise the club option on Manuel and thereby is able to say, ‘see? I gave him every chance. It’s just time for a change.’
Which, sadly, makes me think that short of the Mets dropping ten games under .500 we’re stuck with that idiot until October.
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