Investigating Ted Lilly
One of the memes coming from the front office these days is that they aren't sure that someone like Ted Lilly is an upgrade, stuff-wise, over Hisanori Takahashi, their current fifth starter. They've also expressed reservations about Lilly's reduced velocity this year, which is just another way to say the same thing. This should be easy enough to judge using the current statistics at our disposal.
Starting at the surface, Tak-san is pitching to a 4.25 FIP and 4.34 xFIP by striking out 8.11 per nine and walking 3.49 per nine. But those numbers include his time in the pen, so as a starter, he's got a 5.02 FIP and 4.72 xFIP while showing a 6.75 K/9 and 2.91 BB/9. He's been pretty luck neutral, too, as neither his BABIP (.312) nor strand rate (71.8%) are far from the league benchmarks in those categories (.300 and 70%).
Those results shouldn't be too hard for Lilly to surpass - in a normal year, given his career 4.35 xFIP. This year, though, he's got a 4.55 xFIP (4.62 FIP) on the back of the worst strikeout rate of his career (6.55 K/9) despite his still-excellent control (2.10 BB/9, 2.81 BB/9 was his National League worst). So right now, the results don't show a clear enough upgrade to burn a prospect on, perhaps, but let's dig a little deeper.
The velocity dip was marked early on in the season, and coming off of surgery, concern was high. It is still an issue, but as you can see from this fastball velocity chart from FanGraphs.com, he's working his way back currently. At least, his four best games by fastball velocity came in his last eight games overall.
Also concerning has been Lilly's gradual conversion into an extreme fly ball pitcher. After sporting groundball rates in the high 30s back with the Blue Jays, Lilly now has a minuscule 29.4% groundball rate. That's the second-worst number for qualified starters in the major leagues, and it makes Takahashi's 36.1% number look robust. Even if you point out that #3 on the list, Matt Cain, succeeds by playing in a park that fits his style, you have to admit that Tak-san is also a fly-ball pitcher, and that a walk or so every fifth game is probably not worth the cost of a prospect.
To try and get a little closer to process, let's take a look at their Pitch Type Values, or a linear weights system at FanGraphs that tracks the results of each pitch on a game-state level. In other words, if there's a guy on second, and no outs, that's worth 1.189 runs across baseball. If Lilly throws a fastball, and the guy flies out to right, that same guy on second base with one out is worth .725 runs. These numbers are found by asking "how many runs are scored in this game state, on average."
Lilly's fastball is a double-digit pitch (15.4 runs, positive is good on FG) despite the drop in velocity. His normally robust slider (+36 runs career) is in the negative (-3.5) for the first time in five years, though. While the curveball may set up a lot of things, it's not a good out pitch judging by his career run value (0.3), so maybe it's not a big deal that Lilly is throwing it at a career-low level. It's too bad that he uses the curveball 23% of the time during 0-2 counts, and 19% of the time during 1-2 counts - he is trying to strike people out with it, and yet he's got the worst strikeout rate of his career and the the pitch is running at scratch level according to linear weights.
Takahashi, on the other hand, owns a negative fastball (-6 runs), but his second-most used pitch, the changeup, is actually pretty nice (+6.8 runs). So is his slider (+2.5 runs). The curveball and cutter are negative/scratch, but he only throws them 9.6% of the time combined if the BIS classifications are to be believed. His most-used out pitch is the changeup (38% on 0-2 counts; 39% on 1-2 counts), so it's nice to see a positive classification for his out-pitch.
Let's dig a little deeper and look at their whiff rates. Lilly is getting his career lowest swinging strike percentage (7.6%), while Takahashi has a nicer number even as a starter (10.2%). The average this year is 8.4%, so we have one guy above the mean, and one guy below. Somewhat surprising actually.
Lilly has the track record, but he doesn't look like a clear upgrade this year. Perhaps bullets should be saved to upgrade the bullpen, unless Lilly is actually cheaper than a bullpen option in terms of prospect costs. If that's the case, he could probably give a similar performance to Takahashi, who we know is pretty good in the pen. One last note of caution, though: In high-leverage situations this year, Lilly has been terrible (15.61 FIP), and he's been giving up close to three homers per nine in July.
He certainly doesn't look like a pitcher worth a good prospect, Omar. Please don't overpay.
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I'm not crazy about Lilly.
it’ s change for the sake of change.
One day, this team is going to kill me.
Meh
Bring up Gee and move Tak to the bullpen where he’ll have better success. We shouldn’t be dealing prospects at this point with the way we’ve been playing.
If you release Perez, it’s a net win because the trouble that he causes is far more than the difference in performance that you’ll get between Lilly and Gee.
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but Jerry abuses the privilege.
Also worth noting...
is that Lilly is making $12 million this year. If the Mets were to acquire him and then offer him arbitration at the end of the year, he’d be pretty costly in 2011. At that number, it would be hard to see him not accepting…
formerly known around these parts as nycbroncosfan
"Perhaps bullets should be saved to upgrade the bullpen"
The Mets should save all their bullets because they’ll need every one of them to compete in 2011.
Lilly would be a bad appease the fans move at this pt
pitching isn’t whats been killing them its the Bats
"Perhaps bullets should be saved to upgrade the bullpen"
Or to get Dan Haren? Who would have immediately been the ace of the staff for this year and next. And possibly 2012.
Instead, we can run out who for next year?
The bats are fine IMO. Just a badly timed slump. Wait till Dickey stops pitching a Cy Young and Santana starts giving up homeruns. Then everyone will be clamoring for a SP.
Haren went to the Angels
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
"Who has more fun than people?"
- Ralph Kiner
Yes, they got fleeced badly on that one
for a second I thought the Omar was the Angels GM
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage
by blueandorange4life on Jul 27, 2010 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Not to sound all Rick Peterson
but don’t those numbers indicate that if he threw his fastball more often in strikeout situations he would be significantly better this year?
Tuscan tile instead of hardwood floors?
by Bieser's Balk on Jul 27, 2010 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Not necessarily
Two reasons:
1. If he threw his fastball more often, hitters might do better against it (As they would expect the fastball). Just because a pitch is "better’ than another pitch, it doesn’t mean that the other pitch should be abandoned; rather it means that the mix of pitches that the pitcher throws makes the fastball very effective.
2. Run values for pitches change based upon the count. On 2-strike counts, there is the potential for a pitch to be worth more, as just one more strike = an out. Thus it’s very possible that his fastball’s great value is partially BECAUSE he throws it in strikeout situations with 2 strikes, and thus gets strikeouts with the pitch, whereas he doesn’t throw the other pitches in those situations.
re: I liked Lilly in the past
but not at a cost of a top prospect, or even a marginal one. That said, the way the offense is sucking, does it really matter WHO pitches for the Mets? I don’t think so…the new guy or any of the current ones can throw a no-hitter and still lose 1 to 0!
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
No
That said, the way the offense is sucking, does it really matter WHO pitches for the Mets?
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
"Who has more fun than people?"
- Ralph Kiner
Umm...what exactly are you seeing in Gee this year?
He isn’t burning up the minors, and isn’t pushing Misch as the next choice to bring up at this point.

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