The Future Of Howard Johnson, Hitting Coach
With the Mets having won just three times in their last 15 games -- including a 2-9 road trip to begin the second half of the season -- everyone is looking for answers. The players want answers. The fans want answers. Talk radio and the local papers want answers. Ownership, the front office, and the field staff, they want answers, too. Right now, though, nobody has answers.
Well, we do have one answer, to the question of what the coaching staff will look like on Tuesday: it probably won't look any different than it does now. That means stays of execution for Howard Johnson, Dan Warthen, Razor Shines, and certainly Jerry Manuel. Whether this is merely an electrical malfunction or an honest-to-goodness call from the Governor we may not know for a while.
When the axe does fall, many figure that Johnson will be the first to go, with the Mets having scored just 23 runs in their eleven games since the break and just 13 runs in the nine losses. To what extent Johnson is responsible for the most recent stretch of offensive uselessness is anybody's guess, but it's certainly less than "complete responsibility" and probably much closer to "no responsibility whatsoever". But what is a hitting coach's job if not to coach the hitters, and how else can he be reasonably evaluated except by the performance of those hitters, or at least by the rudiments of performance, i.e. the approach to hitting. In other words, even if the results are suboptimal, the process might be sound.
Or not. Here's where the Mets rank among National League teams in a few cherry-picked categories.
OPS: 13th
OBP: 14th
AVG: 12th
SLG: 13th
BB: 14th
wOBA: 13th
LD%: 14th (i.e. they aren't hitting the ball hard, either)
O-Swing%: 15th (i.e. they're swinging at a lot of balls outside the strike zone)
On aggregate, this paints an ugly, woeful picture of the Mets' approach at the plate: They have been unproductive, impatient, light-hitting, and undisciplined. In short, the offense has been an utterly spectacular mess, and the Beyond The Boxscore Power Rankings, which have consistently listed the Mets well below their actual record this season, are beginning to look not-so-shockingly prophetic.
While the evidence against the Mets' offense belonging to anything but an also-ran is damning, I still have no idea if Hojo is to blame for it, and I'm not sure if I ever will. Much the way we (almost) invariably evaluate managers by the overall performance of their teams, hitting coaches are ultimately judged by the performance of their hitters. If the team is an offensive juggernaut, it's doubtless that the hitting coach will get far too much credit for making it so. Conversely, if the lineup is a bottomless pit of suck, more often than not culpability falls at the feet of the hitting coach and, at least as often, his job falls shortly thereafter.
If the Mets keep hitting as they have, Hojo is going to get the axe sooner or later whether or not this morass of ineptitude is at all his doing. If that happens, he'll be replaced by someone, perhaps a hitting guru, and maybe the Mets will immediately start hitting better. If they do, it might be because the new hitting coach is a wonderful teacher who "gets" hitters. Or maybe it'll be because the Mets just needed to shake something up. Or maybe it'll be because decent teams sometimes start hitting well for no reason at all.
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Here is an off the wall theory of mine....
do you guys think it is possible that HoJo has these guys take TOO MUCH batting practice and they are just exhausted by now ?.
One day, this team is going to kill me.
unless they just cant wait to sit down
Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know? A headache with pictures?
by KeithsMoustache on Jul 27, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Might be true of the young guys,
but I’m pretty sure Wright, Beltran, Bay, Barajas, Blanco, Reyes, Castillo, and Pagan wouldn’t have much trouble letting the hitting coach know they’ve gotten in enough work for a given day.
I think an analog of this might be correct...
What do oblique injuries, various muscle pulls, and a drop-off in late-game performance have in common? Lack of conditioning, both in terms of stretching and exercise. Maybe it’ just that the team is, for back of a better term, lazy when it comes to preparation.
by MookieTheCat on Jul 30, 2010 12:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Noooooooo
Not HoJo!
Wheel of Location, Turn Turn Turn. Tell us the location that we will play.
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
I can't say I'd be too sad to see Hojo fired.
It won’t particularly do anything, I don’t think, but at least it’s an acknowledgment by the FO that things are not going very well, and need to change.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Jul 27, 2010 11:51 AM EDT reply actions
Also-ran
The production has been that of an also-ran, but I don’t think that the current line-up’s expected production, at least given their historical numbers, would have been expected to be this bad. I have posted this comment a couple of times, but Reyes, Pagan, Beltran, Wright, Bay isn’t awful, and Ike’s production is about what you’d expect from a rookie slugger who Ks a bit too much, and now Thole looks to get some regular time. Let Hessman and Carter take some at-bats, suffer through more of slappy, and you still think you have a better than average NL offense.
Of course, haven’t had a healthy Reyes and Beltran for the full season, but now that they do and Thole is getting his break, we can count our mixed blessings that the team managed to stay above .500 until Carlos came back. The recent slump is an extreme disappointment, but mostly a coincidence.
That said, the approach has been fairly abysmal, and while I don’t blame Hojo, he doesn’t get credit either.
It's hard to establish causality...
but THIS is pretty damning to any coach’s teaching ability
LD%: 14th (i.e. they aren’t hitting the ball hard, either)
O-Swing%: 15th (i.e. they’re swinging at a lot of balls outside the strike zone)
I suppose any coach saddled with the hacktastic stylings of Frenchy and Barajas will suffer on o-swing% the same way a team featuring Chris Dudley and Ben Wallace would suffer on FT%.
But still, there is very little patience to be found up and down the lineup and that must be a reflection on HoJo. Either he prefers a “keep choppin’ wood” approach or they’re not listening to whatever else he is selling.
I’m not sure what a coach at the major league level can do to boost LD% other than tinker at the margins. However, in order to even justify having a coach wouldn’t you think a coach has to be able to convince players who aren’t hitting the ball hard to at least be more patient?
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
or they just hire a bunch of hackers to play baseball
by Mike Clemente on Jul 27, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
True...
but then we could look at how players are faring relative to their career numbers. Are they still hackers or getting better? If they’re still hackers that’s not Johnson’s fault, but they’re not getting any better.
That just means the Mets have two problems instead of one. They keep hiring hackers AND those hackers have not seen the evil of their ways. Getting rid of HoJo might help resolve the second, but it does nothing to solve the first.
I’d rather have that than nothing though.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
yeah but Luis Castillo
David Wright, Jason Bay and Jose aren’t career hackers, and they’re all swinging way above their career norms.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
I blame it more on the rest of the lineup sucking so bad that they try to do too much
I can care less about Hojo getting fired or not. I’m in favor if it means the whole staff gets cleared out.
Should have added...
I can see how one could argue that HoJo isn’t the source of the offensive suck machine we have become.
But, when you look at the elements over which you’d hope a coach’s efforts would show up—namely getting people to stop swinging at balls—he doesn’t look good. It’s difficult to point to any one place where maybe he’s had some positive impact.
In that sense, should the Mets ax him I can’t see HoJo as an outright scapegoat. Sure, he’s not the biggest problem the Mets have but he’s probably one of the cheaper ones to address. A coach that is up front that working walks (or at least favorable counts) are paramount to offensive success would be a welcome change.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
how can the mets possibly be worse than the royals?
apparently they are
there's really only two ways to judge a coach
1. You’re a lifelong participant of the game, in one form or another, and you witness the coaches ability to handle players, communicate, and teach on a daily basis and judge his ability in those realms to be greater than the average person you’ve witnessed doing the job in the past.
2. Over a significantly significant period of time with and without that coach, and with essentially the same players, we see a clear change in results and/or process. If a group of players were hackers for 2 years before a coach, then become disciplined for 2 years with said coach, then it’s likely the coach had a part in that.
Part 2 was pretty much what I wanted to say.
I think one of the few ways to accurately judge a coach is to see how hitters change their behavior before and after their time with that coach, if at all. It’s also got to be a significant amount of time if any potential difference is going to amount to any meaning.
by lefty vs lefty on Jul 27, 2010 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe hitters don't want to make the changes
the hitting coach is suggesting? A lot of these guys have been playing baseball a long time and have a set idea(s) regarding their approaches to the plate and they don’t want to tinker with those mechanics.
The other part to the equation is what kind of preparation are the hitters (along with HoJo) doing before games. My what I’ve read, HoJo is really working hard, which is probably the reason he was spared this time.
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
"Who has more fun than people?"
- Ralph Kiner
Hey Eric
What did these stats look like before this last road trip? I think they were much better (given that we were shut out four times on the trip.) I guess my point is, should HoJo be fired for just one bad road trip? Should he be fired because Jason Bay has really hit much this year? Or because David Wright refuses to get closer to the plate (a psychological sequellae from being beaned?)?
But if the purpose is solely to “shake things up,” then I guess I can see it. The Phillies fired their hitting coach Milt Thomspon notwithstanding all the great hitting years they had with him, so I guess we can fire HoJo.
OPS: 13th
OBP: 14th
AVG: 12th
SLG: 13th
BB: 14th
wOBA: 13th
LD%: 14th (i.e. they aren’t hitting the ball hard, either)
O-Swing%: 15th (i.e. they’re swinging at a lot of balls outside the strike zone)
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
"Who has more fun than people?"
- Ralph Kiner
eh most of the rate stats were still awful before the road trip
we’ve been in the bottom of the league in obp, ops bb, o-swing, and wOBA literally all season. The only thing that changed was the run production. Which to me is more a case of regression, as in our run production was over performing in terms of runs getting across the plate compared to what the rest of our offensive numbers were. (I know because there was a mini discussion in one game thread about the difference between our offense and the braves offense back when we were only like .5 games out and I had looked up the numbers.)
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
Also that's a big reason why beyond the boxscores
power rankings have had us as like a bottom 5-10 team the whole year. They have our offense as WAY overperforming.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
But really, aren't the problems that
1. Bay’s power numbers are down;
2. Franceour, Castillo, Barajas and the pitcher are automatic outs?
Are these things HoJo’s fault? Maybe we just need more hitting (hint, hint Omar).
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
"Who has more fun than people?"
- Ralph Kiner
Well Castillo even now isn't an auto out
and not really, I don’t think three hitters would drag all those numbers down so much. Wright also hasn’t been walking in the last 3 months, Reyes has only shown flashes of patience, and Bay’s patience has taken a dive too. Even Mr. I don’t swing at anythng Castillo’s swinging at a much higher rate of out of zone balls. Frenchy and Barajas are impatient, even more so than usual actually, but it’s been a team wide phenomenon they’re just the most readily available targets.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
Those guys don't help, but Wright and Ike swing at a ton of pitches out of the strike zone
I’d actually be curious on the LD% breakdown by player.
You can almost ALWAYS argue that we could have more/better talent
The problem here is that guys who haven’t been hacks are now hacks. Castillo, for all his faults, has always had a superior batting eye. It’s his only skill. Now, even he is swinging at pitches out of the zone.
It’s one thing to say that it’s not right to lay all of this at HoJo’s feet. It’s another thing to say that he’s an asset on the bench. HoJo isn’t nearly as tough a call as, say, Rick Peterson. Peterson had his detractors, and they had good points, but at least you could look at his process and determine whether you thought it was right for this staff.
I just can’t see anything in HoJo’s process that seems worth keeping around when it’s at least possible that an upgrade is available.
"Those who fear disorder more than injustice inevitably produce more of both." -- Rev. William Coffin
I think the biggest problem is the O-Swing numbers
Hacking at pitches outside of the zone is always going to hurt you (unless your name is Vlad). Not only do the Mets have a couple guys who swing at a lot of junk, their usually patient hitters are swinging at a lot more outside of the zone (Reyes, Wright, Bay, Castillo) compared to their career numbers.
As a reference here are the O-Swing numbers for these guys (2010/Career):
Wright: 30.0/21.2
Reyes: 32.1/25.6
Bay: 27.0/20.0
Castillo: 17.2/12.3
I find it kind of hard to believe that those guys just all happened to start swinging at that many more balls out of the zone. It could be the coaching, or it could be that they are pressing, but one this is for sure; they definitely are swinging at a lot of pitches they shouldn’t be.
NY Times article (today)
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/27/sports/baseball/27offense.html
"Never throw a slider to The Glider."
- Ed Charles, No. 5
"Who has more fun than people?"
- Ralph Kiner
The team is always teetering
on the brink of some sort of meltdown. They need to do what they should have done after 2007, which is clean house — don’t fire just one coach. Get rid of the entire managerial regime. Kick Omar to scouting. Do it now. Is this a revelatory post? No. But let’s not lose the forest for the trees. Replacing Hojo will do very little, and will probably unsettle the team even more. It’s all cosmetic and probably counterproductive until you shitcan the triumverate of suckitude, Jerry, Jeff and Omar. Stop allowing them to have scapegoats.
"Tridumbverate."
There. There’s my little catchphrase.
I thought I'd take a look at the actual BB numbers
and not just the swing %ages.
No one is taking eye poppingly fewer walks than they have in the past, based on BB/162 games, but across the board they’re off by 10-20% (except Pagan, who’s showing improvement). Barajas is the only one who has been freakishly bad, even by his miserable standards. Whatever it is, HoJo is not helping. I agree with a lot of posters who doubt that a hitting coach is going to be able to turn a team around, but if he hasn’t hurt the Mets, Johnson surely has not helped them. It’s time for him to go.
This whole thing reminds me of a patient with deadly cancer...
and someone says, hey, lets pop this zit and it’ll help. HoJo isn’t putting out the lineups, trainwrecking the bullpen, and putting people like GMJ, Jacobs and Frankie Cat on the roster. Nor is he virtually nightly managing to give his team the least possible chance to win. Remove the cancer, and if you feel other remedies need to be made once that’s done, fine. But cosmetics aren’t going to help as long as the cancer stays.
Agree...
Blaming the coach is much like firing a coordinator in the NFL: sometimes valid but usually a way to scapegoat.
by MookieTheCat on Jul 30, 2010 12:59 AM EDT up reply actions
That said, because I feel that firing Jerry is an impossibility...
I guess I would support letting HoJo go, if for nothing more than to have sufficient data to distinguish between his errors and those of upper management.
by MookieTheCat on Jul 30, 2010 1:00 AM EDT up reply actions






























