Mets Buyers Or Sellers?
Every year it seems, the Mets fanbase has to debate if the team should be buying or selling. All sorts of yammering goes into the process. The thrust of the arguments usually start with the standings, but the real questions should probably be about windows. As I hinted in this piece about living in the moment, non-Yankee teams need to be able to frankly look at their talent and make a push when their cheap young players are in their peaks.
So, do the Mets have cheap young talent? Sort of - David Wright, Jose Reyes, Ike Davis, Angel Pagan, Mike Pelfrey, and Jonathon Niese are all controlled at rates that are cheaper than the market. That's your young core, ladies and gentleman. Though it's not all that young, they are mostly in their peak age ranges currently. Let's take a look at some key indicators for this team as it assesses their needs this trade deadline:
Mets batters are 29.54 years old on average, and the average age in the National League is 29. But you also have to look at the teams in the division, so you'll see that Philadelphia is obviously older (32), while Atlanta (28.7) and Florida (27.3) are younger. Washington (29.5) is the same age, but given their minor league system and the fact that they just traded Christian Guzman and are looking to trade Adam Dunn, it's fair to rate them as younger. Given their batting age, you'd think that the Mets are more of a win-now team.
The pitchers, drawn up by R.A. Dickey, Elmer Dessens and Hisanori Takahashi, are a tad bit older at 30.33. The average NL pitcher is 28.9, but in the division, we've got some older pitchers. Atlanta (30.5) and Philadelphia (31.8), at least, are older than the Mets. Once again, Florida (27.1) is as young as you think it is. Washington shows its youth in pitching (27.9), so they are doing a good job of building a young team down there. Once again, the Mets look like a win-now team.
There is a caveat. Look at the free agency years for this team, and you'll notice that the team does not lose a real important cog until 2012. This year, only a handful of relievers and Henry Blanco will be on their way when the season comes to a close. 2011 is not the expiration date on this team - 2012, on the other hand, sees a large decision about Jose Reyes looming, as well as the end of Carlos Beltran's (mostly excellent) deal. I've included all options and arb years as if the team will continue to employ the player - obviously Jeff Francouer is a non-tender candidate.
The first version of this chart had a nebulous sixth column regarding the team's health. In the column, I had an up arrow or down arrow for their health, but it was based only on intuition and didn't make enough sense to include. However, if you look up and down this lineup, you see enough injury risk that you understand that health has to be a big part of the decision to buy or sell.
If you think that the team is lucky to be as healthy as they are right now, then now is the time to buy. But, watching Carlos Beltran play right now, that's an iffy proposition. If you think that he'll be healthier next year, and Reyes, Wright, Niese, Pelfrey and Pagan will all be equally healthy next year, then 2011 is the year to go all in at the poker table that is the National League East.
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They should go after someone who's either controlled for 2011 or someone who's extremely cheap
What I really don’t want to hear is “we can win with what we have” after doing nothing, because frankly, that’s a load of crap.
If the Mets sell anything, it should be Feliciano, because he’s getting worse, but still figures to have decent value to teams. Plus, Mets have depth at LOOGY position.
There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ
The 2010 Mets- Hey, we may suck, but what did you expect?
this s what i was going to say
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
sell feliciano, buy for 2011
in an ideal world, pedro would be a LOOGY full time, and I would hope we could find at least one LOOGY to replace him
I like Ike, I hate Jerry
we had one
we released him for no apparent reason (bostick).
in other news the d-backs just gave away another starter for a mediocre reliever. This year makes no sense.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
if you want him back, wiki says he is a free agent
they also say we had only signed him for 2009, dont remember his story to be honest
I like Ike, I hate Jerry
he was part of the package
we traded lindstrom and owens for. him and vargas.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
well i meant the releasing part
wiki had the trade info
I like Ike, I hate Jerry
Based on the most recent trades
Sell the unproductive players for PTBNL (Ollie, Francoeur, Barajas, Cora …)
Sell the overvalued players for prospects (Feliciano, other RP like Elmer “shinny ERA” Fudd)
Buy productive cost controlled players
That’s pretty much what you should do every year. This looks like what IT Ted Berg said.
In lobby campaign for Chris Carter.
seems like a smart plan for a team that may or may not make a playoff push
therefore, this current Mets FO will never do it.
I like Ike, I hate Jerry
Barajas, Ollie, Francoeur and Cora have absolutely no value at this point
Well maybe Francoeur does, but it’s limited
There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ
The 2010 Mets- Hey, we may suck, but what did you expect?
After they managed to sell Mike F***ing Jakobs for a PTBNL, they you should offer those players too.
In lobby campaign for Chris Carter.
Jacobs was making $500 K
Those guys are making millions
There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ
The 2010 Mets- Hey, we may suck, but what did you expect?
For Francoeur and Cora, they just have to add some money. Ollie is dead weight, add lots of money.
A lot of teams (including ours) value a lot the “game calling abilities”, “framing the pitch” and “tutoring prospects” of veteran catchers. The Rangers were willing to trade for Rod earlier.
In lobby campaign for Chris Carter.
What would you want for Francoeur?
I fed a fish to a pelican and Frisco bay and he tried to eat my cell phone he ran away
The Mets clearly have no business playing buyers now
Maybe a guy like Cliff Lee could have been a difference-maker, but a Ted Lilly isn’t going to do it, much less Kevin Gregg.
The Mets need to start thinking about how they’re going to acquire a good, solid starting pitcher this offseason, plus hopefully a decent 2B-man.
Sure they need a pitcher...
But a hitter or two seems in my mind to be the more pressing issue. Middle infield especially.
by MookieTheCat on Jul 30, 2010 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions
This team needs to be thinking about 2011
So I voted sell now, but with the caveat that it would be smart to buy something you need for next year if you can get it cheap now. To me, the terms “buyer” and “seller” are so stupid because no matter what, you should be making your team better. Even if you are “selling” major league parts, you are “buying” potential future major league parts.
The one and only mistermet on teh Interwebz!
by Steve Schreiber on Jul 30, 2010 5:43 PM EDT reply actions
It blows my mind that the mets wouldnt get Lilly
He’s relatively cheap and solves so many problems. At worst he’s another #3 and at best he can be a 1 or 2. He lets you put tak2 in the pen, getting you the extra bullpen arm. And the best thing of all is that he’s projecting to be a Type A FA, getting the mets 2 picks.
by newyorksportsfan on Jul 30, 2010 5:52 PM EDT reply actions
The fact that he's a Type A free agent means the Cubs will be asking for more than they shou;d
There is no hope.... there is no future....there is only GRISSIONZ
The 2010 Mets- Hey, we may suck, but what did you expect?
Some problems with Lilly
1) He is not that good, at best a mid rotation starter
2) He is a borderline Type A free agent
3) If he accepts arbitration, we are stuck with a pitcher we don’t want and we don’t get the draft picks
4) The trade depends heavily on what the Cubs want in return
In lobby campaign for Chris Carter.
#3 is big
are there many teams we really see offering him more than what he’ll get in arb (probably around 12 million) when he will be a type A? The type A status can work both ways when it comes to mediocre players.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
5)
Lilly is a flower
Flower is soft
Soft players are not competitors
Not competitors are lazy, unclutch
Lazy, unclutch are bad at baseball
Ted Lilly is bad at baseball.
In lobby campaign for Chris Carter.
4A
The Cubs continue to ask teams to pay $4 million of the roughly $6 million due to LHP Ted Lilly the rest of this season, says Jon Heyman of SI.com.
This morning, Heyman said the Cubs asked the Mets for C Josh Thole in a deal for Lilly, but the Mets do not want to trade their young catcher.
In lobby campaign for Chris Carter.
Seriously? And they didn't ask for a puppy, too?
You never, ever trade a guy with the potential to become a ML regular for a back of the rotation salary dump like Lilly. There’s no way I’d let the Cubs buy Thole’s potential for a lousy $4m bucks.
Sell
Trade Feliciano to the Dodgers. They always trade good prospects for dull players. Carlos Santana for Casey Blake, Josh Bell for Sherril LOL.
by The American Mr.Hockey on Jul 30, 2010 6:21 PM EDT reply actions
he's really
the only sellable piece imo. I guess the Red Sox asked about Barajas, but that was before the injury. I’d probably shop Pedro for a PTBNL and call up Gee to pitch in the pen or push Takahashi to the pen.
But – here’s the thing. Going into 2011, the only NEED we will have is a #5 starter, which is great. Then again, we’ll have desires, like upgrading second base, figuring out catcher, tinkering with the bullpen, and maybe looking to upgrade offense or pitching – in general. But very few needs. 2011 could be a good year, with a couple smart moves in the offseason, no?
eh i guess it depends on what you consider needs
I’d imagine as constructed even without needs we aren’t much better than a mid 80s win team.
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
in 2011 I mean
barring major step ups from prospects
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
yeah
but at least you wouldn’t be terrible anywhere other than second, really. They somehow have to get exceptional performances from Reyes, Wright, Beltran and Davis to do anything more… or upgrade somewhere in free agency. But the groundworks might be there.
It all depends on what we can expect from Reyes, Bay and Voltron
If those three perform up to their career standards, the 2011 team could be dominant.
If Bay is in terminal decline, Reyes has lost a step, and Beltran has lost two steps and 20 HR, then there’s not much Omar could realistically do to make this team a winner.
Of course, we’re most likely to get some middle scenario, which means it’s all gonna depend on whether Omar can do the “little things” to build deep roster (or just get lucky).
let's pray
that omar is not around to rebuild this team for 2012. I have nightmares that he resigns castillo/perez and cora
Now's the time.
Next year is not that far away. Isn’t it conceivable that certain moves could be made with an eye toward being competitive both this year and next?
yeah it would have been trading for Haren
but y’know, that’s kind of sailed. I’m not sure what other moves could be made. Trading for someone like Kelly Johnson? He’ll still be arb eligible next year won’t he?
I want Jerry Manuel fired now, not three years from now. That is my stance.- John Peterson
One more arb year for Kelly.
I think Hudson is a free agent again too
Both.
(Though it would have been better to do so several weeks ago…)
The Mets were perfectly placed a month ago to aim for players to help them this year, and after. It shouldn’t have been difficult to find a starter and a 2bman who would have been under team control at least through the end of 2011.
You wrote:
“non-Yankee teams need to be able to frankly look at their talent and make a push when their cheap young players are in their peaks.”
This really isn’t true for the Mets or Red Sox. Both can afford to aim for the postseason every single year. True, there will be occasional seasons beyond your control (Wright and Reyes break their legs in a bar brawl in spring training), but the Mets have more than enough of a budget to be contending every year. Hell, the Red Sox can do it and they’re in the same division as the Yankees. Are they 6 of 7 for the postseason since Theo signed on? Their stated aim is to win 95 games every year, and they’ve won 95, 95, 96, 86, 95, 98, 95 going back to 2002. In spite of the injuries, which are starting to rival the Mets last year, the Sox are on pace to win 93 this year. It’s ridiculous for the Mets not to aim for 95 wins as well, particularly since they’re in a far, far better position than the Red Sox.
The talent was definitely here this year. Even with all the problems, simply adding a good starter and 2bman, and keeping Perez and Maine out of the rotation, would have put the Mets even with or ahead of the Braves.
In other words, good post, but it's something of a false question
to ask whether the Mets should go “all in”, a question forced on us by incompetent owners, an incompetent GM, and an incompetent manager, and not by the nature of the players or money available. The Mets don’t need to go “all in” next year. They need to pick up a starter who will pitch well for them in 2011 and beyond or, in the case of Oswalt, whose cost would not have been prohibitive, they would have been just fine getting him for 2010 and 2011 (and possibly 2012) without sacrificing anything significant. They’re going to need a 2bman this year and next, so they should simply go get the best one that can be had at a fair cost. Tejada will probably become a fine backup MI, the kind that a large market team hangs onto, but there’s no reason a large market team has to gamble on a guy like Tejada becoming an average ML starter. And, if by 2012, Havens is ready, and you’ve picked up a starting 2bman in the meantime, Havens is either a tremendous backup, or is a very good young player that you package in order to fill a position of need.
Sorry if I’m belaboring the point, but the Mets never really need to put themselves in a do x or do y position. They never really need to find themselves in EITHER/OR situations. They have the money to create BOTH/AND situations: It’s not a case where they either pickup Kelly Johnson or throw Tejada out there and hope he can handle it. They can afford to BOTH trade for someone like Johnson in order to solidify 2b, AND see how Tejada and Havens develop. Say it’s 2012: If they become can’t miss prospects, they’re great trade bait. Perhaps even better, you keep at least one on hand for depth, or even keep both: Tejada is the backup, and if no one blows you away with a trade proposal, you keep Havens at AAA for an extra year.
Sellers for sure
Our chances this season are finished especially since we didn’t a top starter. We need to start selling pieces and get ready for next year. If we can get something really good in return like a top prospect I would deal Pagan. Not sure it would be possible to get a top prospect for him but if we had to trade him and another prospect, say Mejia or a lesser pitcher to get someone like Mike Minor from the Braves I would make the deal. He is a filthy pitcher who could be our really good #5 next year. I’m not really sure Atl would deal him, but they have a bunch of good pitching prospects and could improve in CF. Then to fill Pagan’s spot we sign Crawford who will play left and Bay moved to right. Many say why trade Pagan, but if we can get a top young pitcher we could really use, and put Crawford in his spot we are golden. Then adding Cliff Lee is the last piece of the puzzle. Lee, Crawford and Minor round out our team. We then have an awesome lineup and filthy rotation of Santana, Lee, Pelf, Niese, and Minor.
And for those wondering where we would get the money to pay all our guys with Lee and Crawford its from how well the team would do with them; it would pay for itself. And after next year Beltran will be gone so we are in a way replacing his salary with Crawford’s which would be about the same or less than Beltran’s.
Then what about this idea people, might scare some a bit.
Trading Reyes to the Red Sox for awesome pitching prospect Casey Kelly and future star shortstop Jose Iglesias? It kinda seems like something to think about considering what we would get back. Although we are losing Reyes but there is something worthwhile in return. Just a crazy idea to think about.
I don't want the Braves to get their hands on Pagan
I’d like to have Mike Minor, but Pagan leads the Mets in WAR! He’s the kind of guy we would be pleading for if we didn’t happen to have him already.
Your proposed trades would be more appropriate for a “rebuilding” franchise. Trading away some of our prime guys for prospects might help the team compete in 2013, but it wouldn’t be worth it if it causes us to miss the playoffs in 2011.

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