Future Fail Applesauce - Mets locked into major 2011 contracts, Cora talks to Bowden, Wak sacked
by Joe Budd on Aug 10, 2010 7:58 AM EDT
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Meet the Mets
With the Mets getting an off-day yesterday, it gave the Met blogosphere a chance to look forward to next year and cringe. The Mets already have $120 million in salary commitments for 2011, but is that the failure of ownership or management?
In case you haven't gotten depressed enough thinking of the future, we have Sean Green to look forward to.
Alex Cora tells Jim Bowden that the Mets should be honest with the fans: they're starting a youth movement.
The war of words between two candidates for Mets GM intensifies as Howard Megdal writes that Omar Minaya is consistently slow with his fixes. Minaya responded with an attack ad.
Met fan James Falzon has filed a lawsuit against the team and a maple bat maker for the gruesome injuries he suffered after getting hit by the splinters during a 2007 Luis Castillo at bat.
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What is Cora's point?
Its kinda hard to get much understanding from just that little twitter comment but I’m not sure what Cora is trying to say. Why does management need to tell the fans they are going for a “youth movement”. I don’t see the Mets unloading their older players so they can bring up their prospects. We still have a lot of older players on the team. I think its less about youth and more about dumping overpaid veterans who aren’t good at baseball..
i think its sad
that the fans need to be told that its a youth movement. 20 year olds at 1st, 2nd and outfield aren’t enough of a hint?
also the other day when it was pointed out how much of our lineup was homegrown i thought “wow that’s awesome.” then i realized we’re not the twins, marlins or athletics or some other dismal market team and thought “wow that’s sad.”
Actually, regarding the homegrown lineup thing...
why do you have to be a “dismal market team” to have a totally homegrown lineup? In my eyes, that’s a good thing that the farm system has been fertile enough to put together an entire lineup…not at all sad in the least.
The one and only mistermet on teh Interwebz!
by Steve Schreiber on Aug 10, 2010 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Cora is a tool
Like wtf is he talking about, there’s bunch of veterans getting priority over youngsters, just not veterans who are below replacement
Mets Ayttendance - Largest Drop in MLB
According to Baseball Reference, the Mets have the biggest attendance drop from last year in MLB.
Cora can say what the heck he wants to say, but clearly changes were needed, the team was failing in the standings and at the box office. What are you going to do, keep playing the same losers (well, ignore Francoeur for the moment).
My suggestion, the veterans should have played better when they had the chance.
Source: http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/current_attendance.shtml#attendance
by George_Sloan on Aug 10, 2010 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Hey Cora, you sucked
youth movement or not, you didn’t belong on the team.
That's pretty interesting,
considering last season was the year of the injury and all of that insanity.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Aug 10, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe the new stadium
All I can think of, last year was pretty terrible.
by George_Sloan on Aug 10, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
That's my thinking
Also, economy still in shitter, and NY financial industry hit fairly hard. Couple that with smacked ass pricing plans (e.g., emerald tier Delta Club silversun seats on a “bronze” day against the Pirates = $180) and no one bothers.
True....
I took a trip to NY in May/June and in the past a trip to Shea would have been a given. Last year I went to see the new stadium and liked it, but now I’ve seen it and it’s not going anywhere.
It’s easier for me to watch on TV than to go, pay a huge sum of money, and not have any guarantee of serious baseball being played.
by MookieTheCat on Aug 10, 2010 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
well the numbers are just for the first few months I believe
maybe people didn’t stop going until july
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
Looks pretty consistent
I can’t find game by game attendance, but the total attendance for 2009 was 3,168,571. If you divide that by 81 home games you come up with 39,118. Through 52 games last year the attendance was 39,186. So there was a drop off but not a lot, looks to be pretty consistent. If you guess that every ticket is worth $50 to the Mets, they are going to make $24M less this year than last year. Pretty big drop.
Probably lots of reason why attendance is down, the economy, the new stadium is no longer a draw, but probably the biggest reason for the Mets decrease is that no one really wants to watch the Mets play baseball. How many times do you really want to see them screw up? Personally, I was disappointed last year by the injuries, but not really pissed at the Mets. This year however, I am pissed because they are just a bad, bad, bad team.
The Yanks are pretty much where they were last year, up about 600 tickets a game. They outdraw the Mets by about 13,000 a game. I think if the Mets were playing good ball, people would show up.
It is interesting to note that 12 teams have increased attendance, and 18 teams have a decrease. The economy is probably a pretty large factor overall, but IMO, the Mets are putting out a bad product, and the fans aren’t buying it anymore.
by George_Sloan on Aug 10, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
A couple of massages to the math here...
I think that attendance is typically low in April and into May when it’s still cold. A night game in April can be brutal in Flushing, and besides Opening Day they are usually sparsely attended. That might skew the consistency angle, balancing small end of season crowds. Of course the same could be said for September sometimes, but in September a team in a playoff race would still be pulling large crowds, whereas in April it’s too early to determine. I think it’s also fairly clear that the Mets attendance will drop now from June/July because they it appeared that maybe this team was worth watching and spending money on. I think the gap will widen as the season wears on. In June, when we were a half game out games were meaningful. Now they are not.
by MookieTheCat on Aug 10, 2010 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Fair enough
The data from Baseball Reference is comparing the first 52 home games between last year and this year. Attendance was down a total of 315,231 over those 52 games, for an average decrease of 6,062. We do have 29 home games left, who knows what will happen with those games, attendance wise. The one thing I would probably bet on is we won’t match last years attendance. I wonder if drop in attendance will hurt the Wilpons to any extent.
by George_Sloan on Aug 10, 2010 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh sorry...Didn't make it clear I was agreeing with your general point...
But I was.
by MookieTheCat on Aug 10, 2010 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I understood
Sorry Mookie, I understood, I was mostly talking to myself. Part of me is happy that attendance is tanking, ’cause this team sucks. But I also realize that they will probably cut payroll again next year to make up the shortage. It could be a dreary 2011.
In any case, this topic fascinates me, for some strange reason. Sorry.
by George_Sloan on Aug 10, 2010 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Also
TV quality is so amazing now on large flatscreens. Plus with GKR, cheap beer and not needing to rise from your couch, watching at home can be more enjoyable. That being said, there’s nothing like being at a live ball game.
Perhaps you've hit on
why so many teams have horrid announcing teams.
a 2 hour train ride
on a packed subway car at 11pm on a weeknight from the stadium is what keeps me away from mets games.
Seriously?
Packing onto the 7 (and, the wrong one, to boot! Who’s smart idea is it to put the special “event train” express on the opposite track?) after the game is one of my favorite parts of going to the game. Especially after a win.
"Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!"
Gil Hodges IS a Hall of Famer.
by Brooklyn Dodgers Mets Fan on Aug 10, 2010 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I think there was a massive drop off in the first two months
then a massive upswing during our hot streak, and it’s probably going to be a massive drop off again.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
2010-11 Seattle Mariners =
1981-82 New York Mets.
They do a lot of smart things over the winter, they’re a consensus “sleeper” pick and they fail miserably.
Your 2014 World Champion Seattle Mariners, ladies & gentlemen…
Oh, the butcher and the baker and the people on the street: wheredotheygo?!?!?
At the time (1981-82)
I was mostly thinking about muppets. For many of the people here, their parents were figuring out what to wear to junior high homecoming.
Oh, I know.
I was a junior/senior in high school myself at the time. I had no interest in looking long-term. All I knew was that the team that SI had picked to finish 2nd in the division was floundering and nobody could figure out why.
Oh, the butcher and the baker and the people on the street: wheredotheygo?!?!?
Megdal
Really crushes it as always. I too wonder why Frenchy is looked at so highly as a team player yet constantly complains about how tough it will be to have reduced playing time and blah blah blah
I am also flabbergasted as to why he deserved a closed door meeting to be given an explanation as to why his playing time would be reduced with Fernando being called up. Wouldn’t simply holding up a sign that says “.241/.294/.385.679” suffice? Or perhaps something like “Please visit ”http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=rf&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=6&season=2010&month=0" target="_blank">http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=rf&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=6&season=2010&month=0 and call me in the morning."?
I don’t want to kick a dead horse, but our treatment of this situation is just so indicative of the Mets’ lack of understanding of what constitutes a good ballplayer.
Hmm
Here let’s try it this way:
“Please visit
www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=rf&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=6&season=2010&month=0and call me in the morning."
by DannyMetsGeek on Aug 10, 2010 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Jerry Flip-Flopping
What irritates me most about that whole mess is Jerry doing a flip flop. He first said it would be a straight platoon, and then did a 180 and said that it wouldn’t be a platoon and they would play Francoeur against right-handers. Nothing like showing some consistency and leadership. Both Jerry and Francoeur need to go.
by George_Sloan on Aug 10, 2010 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions
The problem here is you're assuming the Mets pay attention to OBP and SLG.
I’m certain those stats are not high up in their pantheon.
nuh uh
we gave Castillo 4/24 specifically because we wanted obp guys at the top of our line up.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
Really? I'm amazed. Whence Cora in the two-hole, then?
Would that someone could explain Francouer, Barajas, Jacobs (two consecutive years of sub .300 OBP).
it only matters at the top of the line up apparently
and they probably looked at Cora’s 08 obp and never checked again.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
as far as I can tell Omar thinks there's obp guys
like Castillo who you need at the top. and power guys like, Jacobs, Barajas and Frenchy who you need at the bottom to drive runners in.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
I love how
the supposed “great clubhouse guys” like Frenchy and Cora don’t hesitate to open their mouths as soon as the team makes decisions that take away their playing time.
I wonder whether Cora will be added to the list of “players on the opening day roster of the 2010 Mets who will never play another game in the major leagues following their release by the Mets.”
by dontstopbelieving on Aug 10, 2010 10:13 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
He must, he's had only an average career up till this season and he has flat out stunk
Plus with all his yapping to the press and ranting in the clubhouse, who would want him?
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"
-Adam Savage
by blueandorange4life on Aug 10, 2010 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions
What are the odds that Cora will be added to
Not to mention Mike Jacobs, Gary Matthews, Jr., Frank Catalanotto…
We've got ourselves a ball club, the Mets of New York town!
by kingcritical on Aug 10, 2010 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Yes, I remember that list
I would be surprised if Jacobs winds up being on it. Notwithstanding his limitations, he’s young enough and has pop in his bat; my guess is he’ll at least get Sept. callups and/or be used as an injury replacement/bench piece here and there. GMJ and (even more certainly) FCat are most likely done.
by dontstopbelieving on Aug 10, 2010 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Interesting list.
Wonder if Delgado will stay on it. Also, El Duque—incredibly—doesn’t qualify anymore.
by pologroundling on Aug 10, 2010 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Oops--correction
El Duque’s still in the minors for the Nats, but apparently doing well so I could see them bringing him up.
by pologroundling on Aug 10, 2010 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions
that is a huge list
Shawn Green, Marlon Anderson, Damion Easley, Fernando Tatis?, Jose Valentin, Eli Marrero, etc…
This, BUT
there’s a premise here: Omar has a relatively free hand to spend that money as he desires. You can’t ignore the evolution fo the salary. My guess is that the ’Pons are inconsistent wafflers who go back and forth between fiscal austerity/player development and getting that “one last piece” to put asses in the seats. Does this roster and our roster management give you the sense that one single person is in control? (Even one single completely incompetent person?)
because
only great clubhouse guys can open their mouths…dontcha know? :)
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
by feslenraster on Aug 11, 2010 8:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Gotta love the very next tweet from Bowden
Alex Cora clubhouse presence and versatility certainly could help a contending club……
I knew there was a reason Bowden was an ex-GM.
Bowden probably thinks
Cora’s only 16 years old.
by dontstopbelieving on Aug 10, 2010 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions
kind of tough not to be amused by bowden
what GMs are willing to wear 500 dollar leather pants, ride sequeways and get into fights with their girlfriend at a drive while buck naked. good ol jim bowden, thats who.
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.
by kendynamo on Aug 10, 2010 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
he's very verstaile
he sucks on the bench, sucks at the plate, sucks in the field, even sucks on radio shows after he’s been cut.
truly a man of a thousand talents. though to be fair, he does sound like a good guy and a friend recently met him at mcfadden’s at the stadium after a game and said he was really nice to everyone.
i think we were all hoping cora could kind of ride into the sunset after a nice career and become a coach somewhere, but it seems he’s willing to burn bridges on his way out.
Yeah it was Cora's veteran leadership
From the bench that let Pedroia develop into a ROY and MVP….oh wait it was because he sucked and the Sox realized it was better to play the guy with a lot more upside.
by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Aug 10, 2010 10:34 AM EDT reply actions
nice one by medgal
cant helped but be reminded of the Greeley-McHutchence Committee to Crush Reverend Anders.
HELLO HELLO MR WILPON... BUY THAT MANSION. WE DONT NEED A CONDO.
As pointed out in the link, the weird thing about the Rangers comic is that nobody hates A-Rod.
Anybody have a copy of the Mets comic book from 2000 they want to scan and put online?
by pologroundling on Aug 10, 2010 11:08 AM EDT reply actions
The Mets
have $120M in commitments next year. But from what I remember seeing, I believe a bunch of contracts will be up in 2012. Which means the Mets will have to win next year, or those guys will all be trade bait.
Either way, I think it’s funny that the FO can’t win when it comes to payroll. If they pay a bunch of big stars tons of money, they are “wasteful”. If they pay everybody relatively low salaries, the owners are considered “cheapskates in a big market”. Omar did what he needed to do to get some huge names in Mets uniforms, which before 2005 was unheard of.
No, Omar's job is not to get some huge names in Mets uniforms
his job is to get productive players in Mets uniforms that can help them win and get into the playoffs. Obviously, with the highest total payroll in the NL over the last 5 years and only 1 playoff appearance to show for it, he hasn’t done his job.
by secret defense on Aug 10, 2010 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
T H I S !!!!!!!!!!!
rec’d.
Oh, the butcher and the baker and the people on the street: wheredotheygo?!?!?
Omar works at the behest of the ownership
That’s really all there is to it. If they say “get me a guy who will sell some tickets” then he’s got to do it.
As tmu’s comment above indicates, the roster really does not seem to be constructed with any kind of coehrence or plan. That kind of thing – including timelines for winning, the minor leagues, a willingness to lose and rebuild etc. – comes from the ownership.
Over and over and over again, there are signs which indicate that the Wilpon’s would rather win 82-88 games every year than ever make a serious run at the World Series. So it should come as no surprise what we are looking at.
by Brian Mangan on Aug 10, 2010 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I understand they should be productive
but you can’t blame productivity on Omar. That’s the players’ fault.
In a sense, I agree with you. You just seem to have missed my point.
My point was that the payroll has nothing to do with productivity.
Yet the payroll is brought into the discussion so often for some reason.
What would be the point of freeing up salary space on the roster? Just so they can pay someone else that money, right? I understand that there are good signings and bad signings, but all teams have those.
If you’re not paying one person, you’re paying someone else, so I fail to see what the difference is, aside from being clairvoyant and signing an entire team of Dickeys and Pagans for minimal money. Even if that hypothetical situation were to occur, people would still be claiming the Mets were being too cheap and not signing huge names. For the record, I am not one of those people. But there are plenty of them.
Teams like the Braves, Red Sox, Phillies, Marlins etc
all spend a good deal of money on scouting and going over slot for draft picks, it’s not surprising that their farm system is usually stack with cheap young talent that fill many important holes in the team while allowing them occasionally to sign big FA and trade for expensive players. The Mets have been relatively inept in player development, which results in a lot of holes in their lineup and bullpen. Signing FA like K-Rod and Bay isn’t going solve all your problems. Sure every team has a bad contract or two, but with this kind of payroll you should be able to eat your mistakes and still field a very good team.
by secret defense on Aug 10, 2010 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, yes, yes
How dumb and shortsighted is it to not invest in player development so that you get a pipeline of inexpensive players? Even if you have the spending power to lure free agents, why are the two strategies mutually exclusive? Develop players, trade soem for talent, keep some for less, which frees up money for FAs, etc. It’s mindboggling that the Mets can’t figure this out. And if it’s that the guys in the FA can’t execute the plan, out with them!
well, and Schmidtx has way more details on this than I do so if he randomely pops
up you might want to ask him, from what I understand a major amount of funds were diverted to building the academies in latin countries, which is why they’ve spent less on the draft and other player development avenues, because the idea is once those academies are set up there will be a massive influx of cheap latin talent to choose from.
Of course if MLB sets up an international draft before that we’ll be royally screwed.
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
of course considering our revenue streams
you’d think we could spend on both
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
Bingo
I understand that those academies aren’t supposed to start producing talent for a while, but I don’t exactly see our lower minors brimming with inexpensive talent from anywhere, let alone Latin America. We have some promising young Latin players (Flores, Mejia, Familia, etc.), but our group doesn’t seem that much more impressive than anyone else’s.
I especially like the Academy that produced those guys...
La Academia de Nada On-Base Percentago. Also, La Academia de Mopupo.
These were good investments, in the finest Omar tradition.
by MookieTheCat on Aug 10, 2010 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
yeah we've apparently cut spending in IFA the last 2-3 years too
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
That's it.
It’s not an either/or strategy. At least, it’s not unless the team is foolishly run.
so are the Mets the only team that can sign players from those academies?
assuming no international draft, if not then what’s the point?
by secret defense on Aug 10, 2010 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions
We probably get a ROFR
something like that. They can’t buy these guys forever, but there has to be some assurance that they’re not just training other teams’ players. It’s probably how soccer teams do it. At a certain age, they can sign you or release you, I think.
Betting your entire business on the assumption of cheap raw materials from Latin America...
Sound
by MookieTheCat on Aug 10, 2010 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
well in baseball
it’s not really that bad. For the price of one top 5 mlb draft pick you can sign 100 Jenrry Meija’s
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
and really when it comes to prospects quantity probably > quality
unless that quality is like 22 in AAA and on the verge of making the majors
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
and it's not really basing the entire plan on it
I think the idea is more scrimp now and then dominate on both ends?
mediocrity thy name is Wilpon- jdon
2013....Isn't that 3 years from now?
Hey, nice stance there.
Srrriously
if were a big league second baseman who lost your job to Ruben Tejada, wouldn’t you be making lame excuses to explain why?
I don't think he needs to make up excuses...
Baseball Reference has them all online. But yeah, I get your point.
by MookieTheCat on Aug 10, 2010 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Not a chance in hell. I dont even think I will go at any point during the rest of the season either.
Consequences will never be the same.
by NetsMets4Life on Aug 10, 2010 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions
unfortunately, i bought a pack of cheap tickets at the beginning of the year.
John Olerud, Hall of Famer. Got a nice ring to it.
i hope you find a way to enjoy them.
After all, there is shake shack and blue smoke.
Consequences will never be the same.
by NetsMets4Life on Aug 10, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Blue Smoke?
I think one might need some Blue Magic to enjoy the rest of the season.
by MookieTheCat on Aug 10, 2010 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Wrt the list of guys who had their last days on the Mets,
look at 2007 and 2008, for example. Those are a lot of roster spots going to guys who were giving little or even negative value (w apologies for the formatting):
Sandy Alomar Jr 2007 -0.2 22
Ambirorix Burgos 2007 0.0 23.2
Jeff Conine 2007 -0.3 50
Shawn Green 2007 0.5 490
Orlando Hernandez 2007 0.9 147.2
Brian Lawrence 2007 0.1 29
Ricky Ledee 2007 0.1 43
Aaron Sele 2007 -0.1 53.2
Jose Valentin 2007 0.0 183
Moises Alou 2008 0.2 54
Tony Armas 2008 0.0 8.1
Brady Clark 2008 0.1 11
Damion Easley 2008 0.3 347
Trot Nixon 2008 0.1 41
Abraham Nunez 2008 N/A 2
Al Reyes 2008 N/A 0
Ricardo Rincon 2008 -0.1 4
Matt Wise 2008 -0.1 7
Does anyone have any idea if that’s an unusual number of players who, to be blunt, expired in a given team’s uniform?
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